| Topic: |
Religions > Atheism |
| User: |
"John P. Boatwright" |
| Date: |
20 Aug 2003 03:36:00 AM |
| Object: |
Re: Why I Left Atheism |
DGE Project wrote:
(snip)
Most of the time when I speak to religious groups or to people who
believe in God, someone will ask me somewhat incredulously, "Well, were
you really an atheist? Did you really not believe in God?" I want to
start by asserting that the answer to that question is a very
affirmative "Yes." At one time in my life, I was totally and firmly
convicted that there was no such thing as God and that anybody who
believed in God was silly, superstitious, ignorant and had simply not
looked at the evidence.
That's 'cuz you were wrong and didn't know the truth.
I felt that believers in God were uneducated and
were just following traditions, superstitions and things that really
made no sense to a person who was aware of what was going on around him.
Probably you weren't thinking and such. If you had
just starting thinking a bit, understanding the truth...
it would have become clear that God is there.
Of course, that kind of life and conviction led me to do and say things
and to be something that was really very unpleasant. I lived a life that
was immoral and which reflected a lack of belief in God. I lived in a
way that was very self-centered and that satisfied my own pleasures and
desires regardless of whether or not other people were hurt in the
process of what I was doing. In the process of doing this, I did a lot
of things that have affected me through my whole life.
Well, now you know better. Good for you.
God made it all, Jesus died for our sins.
Proof God described the planet density profile
BEFORE science did:
http://home.teleport.com/~salad/4god/density.htm
(see the 2 graphs, obviously God was right in Genesis)
Mirror site at: http://For-God.net
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| User: "info" |
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| Title: Re: Why I Left Atheism |
20 Aug 2003 07:21:30 AM |
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"John P. Boatwright" <name@For-God.net> wrote in message
news:3F4332E9.214A@For-God.net...
DGE Project wrote:
(snip)
Most of the time when I speak to religious groups or to people who
believe in God, someone will ask me somewhat incredulously, "Well, were
you really an atheist? Did you really not believe in God?" I want to
start by asserting that the answer to that question is a very
affirmative "Yes." At one time in my life, I was totally and firmly
convicted that there was no such thing as God and that anybody who
believed in God was silly, superstitious, ignorant and had simply not
looked at the evidence.
That's 'cuz you were wrong and didn't know the truth.
I felt that believers in God were uneducated and
were just following traditions, superstitions and things that really
made no sense to a person who was aware of what was going on around him.
Probably you weren't thinking and such. If you had
just starting thinking a bit, understanding the truth...
it would have become clear that God is there.
Of course, that kind of life and conviction led me to do and say things
and to be something that was really very unpleasant. I lived a life that
was immoral and which reflected a lack of belief in God. I lived in a
way that was very self-centered and that satisfied my own pleasures and
desires regardless of whether or not other people were hurt in the
process of what I was doing. In the process of doing this, I did a lot
of things that have affected me through my whole life.
Well, now you know better. Good for you.
God made it all, Jesus died for our sins.
Proof God described the planet density profile
BEFORE science did:
http://home.teleport.com/~salad/4god/density.htm
(see the 2 graphs, obviously God was right in Genesis)
Mirror site at: http://For-God.net
------------
Volume-01
ftp://info-01:info-01@65.127.169.45/info.html
Volume-02
ftp://info-02:info-02@65.127.169.45/info.html
Volume-03
ftp://info-03:info-03@65.127.169.45/info.html
------------
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| User: "Neil Kelsey" |
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| Title: Re: Why I Left Atheism |
20 Aug 2003 10:32:48 AM |
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Proof God described the planet density profile
BEFORE science did:
http://home.teleport.com/~salad/4god/density.htm
(see the 2 graphs, obviously God was right in Genesis)
Way to go god. Good work. And you catch on so fast! You sure beat science to
that one. Yup.
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| User: "sparkup" |
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| Title: Re: Why I Left Atheism |
20 Aug 2003 08:05:34 AM |
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DGE Project wrote:
(snip)
Most of the time when I speak to religious groups or to people who
believe in God, someone will ask me somewhat incredulously, "Well, were
you really an atheist? Did you really not believe in God?" I want to
start by asserting that the answer to that question is a very
affirmative "Yes." At one time in my life, I was totally and firmly
convicted that there was no such thing as God and that anybody who
believed in God was silly, superstitious, ignorant and had simply not
looked at the evidence. I felt that believers in God were uneducated and
were just following traditions, superstitions and things that really
made no sense to a person who was aware of what was going on around him.
Of course, that kind of life and conviction led me to do and say things
and to be something that was really very unpleasant. I lived a life that
was immoral and which reflected a lack of belief in God. I lived in a
way that was very self-centered and that satisfied my own pleasures and
desires regardless of whether or not other people were hurt in the
process of what I was doing. In the process of doing this, I did a lot
of things that have affected me through my whole life.
Nope, that was your inherent selfishness coming to the fore, once the
control of your superstition was removed.
People who are brought up correctly, with an instilled respect of
others, do not suffer from the same failings as you did, even without
the boogie-man of "God will burn you if you arent nice to others".
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| User: "Skypher" |
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| Title: Re: Why I Left Atheism |
20 Aug 2003 06:12:01 PM |
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I am an ex-atheist, too. I think God tests ex-atheists more harshly than
theists who were never atheists so if something really bad happens to you
within the next year...that's what it is...God's testing your faith. It'll be
back to back problems...but if you make it, you come out of it better, and
stronger. Oh and the first thing you'll want to do when the problems start is
to denounce God and yell at him. If you give into that, you'll lose.
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| User: "Bored With The Bitch" |
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| Title: Re: Why I Left Atheism |
09 Sep 2003 03:14:27 PM |
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On 20 Aug 2003 23:12:01 GMT, (Skypher) wrote:
I am an ex-atheist, too. I think God tests ex-atheists more harshly than
theists who were never atheists so if something really bad happens to you
within the next year...that's what it is...God's testing your faith. It'll be
back to back problems...but if you make it, you come out of it better, and
stronger. Oh and the first thing you'll want to do when the problems start is
to denounce God and yell at him. If you give into that, you'll lose.
So god is no better than a person: His love comes with strings attached.
Erikc (alt.atheist #002) | "An Fhirinne in aghaidh an tSaoil."
BAAWA Knight | "The Truth against the World."
| -- Bardic Motto
======
At one point in time, many of us actually had Jesus as
our personal lord and saviour. Unfortunately, we later
had to dismiss him for incompetence, gross negligence,
misconduct and consistent failure to show up for work.
======
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| User: "Al Klein" |
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| Title: Re: Why I Left Atheism |
09 Sep 2003 10:47:30 PM |
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On Tue, 09 Sep 2003 21:14:27 +0100, Bored With The *****
<firewevr@airmail.net> posted in alt.atheism:
On 20 Aug 2003 23:12:01 GMT, (Skypher) wrote:
I am an ex-atheist, too. I think God tests ex-atheists more harshly than
theists who were never atheists so if something really bad happens to you
within the next year...that's what it is...God's testing your faith. It'll be
back to back problems...but if you make it, you come out of it better, and
stronger. Oh and the first thing you'll want to do when the problems start is
to denounce God and yell at him. If you give into that, you'll lose.
So god is no better than a person: His love comes with strings attached.
Just like Jen's brain.
--
Zymurgist # 2
(random sig, produced by SigChanger)
rukbat at optonline dot net
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| User: "Barry OGrady" |
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| Title: Re: Why I Left Atheism |
11 Sep 2003 10:03:51 AM |
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On Wed, 10 Sep 2003 03:47:30 GMT, Al Klein <rukbat@pern.invalid> wrote:
On Tue, 09 Sep 2003 21:14:27 +0100, Bored With The *****
<firewevr@airmail.net> posted in alt.atheism:
On 20 Aug 2003 23:12:01 GMT, (Skypher) wrote:
I am an ex-atheist, too. I think God tests ex-atheists more harshly than
theists who were never atheists so if something really bad happens to you
within the next year...that's what it is...God's testing your faith. It'll be
back to back problems...but if you make it, you come out of it better, and
stronger. Oh and the first thing you'll want to do when the problems start is
to denounce God and yell at him. If you give into that, you'll lose.
So god is no better than a person: His love comes with strings attached.
Just like Jen's brain.
God embodies the worst of human nature. We are made in his image, which
must mean God has a bad case of MPD.
--
Zymurgist # 2
(random sig, produced by SigChanger)
rukbat at optonline dot net
-Barry
========
Web page: http://members.optusnet.com.au/~barry.og
Atheist, radio scanner, LIPD information.
Voicemail/fax number +14136227640
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| User: "John Popelish" |
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| Title: Re: Why I Left Atheism |
20 Aug 2003 06:53:32 PM |
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Skypher wrote:
I am an ex-atheist, too. I think God tests ex-atheists more harshly than
theists who were never atheists
So you are thinking that some babies exit the womb as theists? What
planet are you from? On this planet everyone is either atheist or
ex-atheist.
...so if something really bad happens to you
within the next year...that's what it is...God's testing your faith. It'll be
back to back problems...but if you make it, you come out of it better, and
stronger. Oh and the first thing you'll want to do when the problems start is
to denounce God and yell at him. If you give into that, you'll lose.
If I understand you, you are saying that when you first begin to
believe that some god exists, it can be expected to punish you for a
year or so, just to see if it can turn you back to disbelief. Does
this apply to children who learn to believe in some god from their
parents indoctrination?
Your god is evil. It is little wonder you have such a rough time with
reality.
--
John Popelish
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| User: "Editor of EvilBible.com" |
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| Title: Re: Why I Left Atheism - What is an atheist? |
20 Aug 2003 10:44:18 PM |
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"John Popelish" <jpopelish@rica.net> wrote in message
news:3F440B46.36EF7065@rica.net...
Skypher wrote:
I am an ex-atheist, too. I think God tests ex-atheists more harshly
than
theists who were never atheists
So you are thinking that some babies exit the womb as theists? What
planet are you from? On this planet everyone is either atheist or
ex-atheist.
Babies are not theists nor atheists. I have never seen a dictionary define
an atheist as "one who lacks a belief in a god or Gods" for precisely this
reason. And yet I have run into several people here who seem to think that
this is the definition for "atheist". Why do you insist on using such an
obviously flawed definition?
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| User: "Crazyalec" |
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| Title: Re: Why I Left Atheism - What is an atheist? |
22 Aug 2003 12:42:46 PM |
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"Editor of EvilBible.com" <Dont_Reply@Here.com> wrote in message news:<bi1f70$57c$1@bob.news.rcn.net>...
"John Popelish" <jpopelish@rica.net> wrote in message
news:3F440B46.36EF7065@rica.net...
Babies are not theists nor atheists. I have never seen a dictionary define
an atheist as "one who lacks a belief in a god or Gods" for precisely this
reason. And yet I have run into several people here who seem to think that
this is the definition for "atheist". Why do you insist on using such an
obviously flawed definition?
Is there any *****-tionary in the world, that define an "atheist" as
someone who is simply "not a theist"? No matter what the "theist" is?
The idea of "god" is already an idea....a belief.SO how can you
believe in a belief?
Its like saying "I love the love".
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| User: "Crazyalec" |
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| Title: Re: Why I Left Atheism - What is an atheist? |
25 Aug 2003 01:30:23 PM |
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(Crazyalec) wrote in message news:<37c9d6cf.0308220942.2ea0e8d7@posting.google.com>...
"Editor of EvilBible.com" <Dont_Reply@Here.com> wrote in message news:<bi1f70$57c$1@bob.news.rcn.net>...
"John Popelish" <jpopelish@rica.net> wrote in message
news:3F440B46.36EF7065@rica.net...
Babies are not theists nor atheists. I have never seen a dictionary define
an atheist as "one who lacks a belief in a god or Gods" for precisely this
reason. And yet I have run into several people here who seem to think that
this is the definition for "atheist". Why do you insist on using such an
obviously flawed definition?
Is there any *****-tionary in the world, that define an "atheist" as
someone who is simply "not a theist"? No matter what the "theist" is?
The idea of "god" is already an idea....a belief.SO how can you
believe in a belief?
Its like saying "I love the love".
So how? I'm still waiting.
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| User: "Crazyalec" |
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| Title: Re: Why I Left Atheism - What is an atheist? |
25 Aug 2003 11:50:46 PM |
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"Scot McDermid" <scotmc@SAVEattTHEbi.SPAMcom> wrote in message news:<n9t2b.195463$Oz4.52462@rwcrnsc54>...
People believe things are true or false.
Things are either true or false.You don't need to believe.
Statements of
belief (or claims or assertions) are called 'propositions'.
The word "God" by itself isn't a proposition.
Of course it is.Its a figment of imagination.Its something that in
your head....an idea....wishfull thinking.
Here is a proposition: "God exists"
God is a belief....its something that in your head.A thought.
Some people believe that proposition is true.
Some people believe that proposition is false.
Some people believe that proposition is meaningless
The proposition (by definition) is an idea...a thought. You can't
believe in an idea, like its a real thing.
Its like saying I believe OJ Simpson is guilty, therefore should be in
prison.
Just because you believe, doesn't mean you can put him in prison.
But religion using a belief to justify their actions, like its a fact.
because the word "God" isn't precisely defined and
agreed upon even among theists.
Its an idea.Anybody can define an idea any way they want.But that
doesn't mean that you can use that idea like its a fact.
Some people have no beliefs at all about the proposition.
When will you understand, that its not about a belief???
Its a con game.Using a belief like its a fact, and benefit from it.
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| User: "sparkup" |
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| Title: Re: Why I Left Atheism - What is an atheist? |
27 Aug 2003 09:36:18 AM |
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Crazyalec wrote:
"Scot McDermid" <scotmc@SAVEattTHEbi.SPAMcom> wrote in message news:<n9t2b.195463$Oz4.52462@rwcrnsc54>...
People believe things are true or false.
Things are either true or false.You don't need to believe.
You must believe one way or the other, or be undecided if the thing in
question has not yet been proven.
Statements of
belief (or claims or assertions) are called 'propositions'.
The word "God" by itself isn't a proposition.
Of course it is.
Nope. "God exists" is a proposition.
"God" is a mere label.
Its a figment of imagination.Its something that in
your head....an idea....wishfull thinking.
Here is a proposition: "God exists"
God is a belief
Nope "God" is a label.
...its something that in your head.A thought.
Yep it is a label for the subject of the belief.
It is not the belief itself.
Some people believe that proposition is true.
Some people believe that proposition is false.
Some people believe that proposition is meaningless
The proposition (by definition) is an idea...a thought. You can't
believe in an idea, like its a real thing.
Yes you can.
The big bang is an idea.
You can believe it or not.
Its like saying I believe OJ Simpson is guilty, therefore should be in
prison.
Yep....that is perfectly valid.
Just because you believe, doesn't mean you can put him in prison.
Yep...that is also true.
But religion using a belief to justify their actions, like its a fact.
Yep...that is invalid.
Your point?
because the word "God" isn't precisely defined and
agreed upon even among theists.
Its an idea.Anybody can define an idea any way they want.
Wrong, you cannot define the big bang as a kind of giant banana.
Ideas are usually specifically defined.
But that
doesn't mean that you can use that idea like its a fact.
Thats right, but you can assume that the idea is true and see how it
fits in with reality.
Some people have no beliefs at all about the proposition.
When will you understand, that its not about a belief???
So its not about belief?
Its a con game.Using a belief like its a fact,
Oh...so it is about belief?!?!?
Make up your mind Alec.
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| User: "dig" |
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| Title: Re: Why I Left Atheism - What is an atheist? |
27 Aug 2003 12:16:33 PM |
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Funny how my analogy was ignored. If you still think it's one way or
the other (binary as someone put it) - you would need to explain how
this analogy doesn't fit:
Police question potential witnessess. He asks 3 people what they saw:
1) Fred says he saw a woman run down the alley
2) Jane says she was watching the alley and no woman ever ran down it
3) Bill says he wasn't watching so he doesn't know
Can you just say that according to Bill no woman ever ran down that
alley, even though he's actually saying he doesn't know?
You must believe one way or the other, or be undecided if the thing in
question has not yet been proven.
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| User: "Crazyalec" |
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| Title: Re: Why I Left Atheism - What is an atheist? |
28 Aug 2003 04:16:42 AM |
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(dig) wrote in message news:<69dbc198.0308270916.6990fc13@posting.google.com>...
Funny how my analogy was ignored. If you
Who are you asking?
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| User: "dig" |
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| Title: Re: Why I Left Atheism - What is an atheist? |
28 Aug 2003 01:07:25 PM |
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anyone who wants to answer
oleka2000@yahoo.com (Crazyalec) wrote in message news:<37c9d6cf.0308280116.7b847cd9@posting.google.com>...
cursedwretch@hotmail.com (dig) wrote in message news:<69dbc198.0308270916.6990fc13@posting.google.com>...
Funny how my analogy was ignored. If you
Who are you asking?
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| User: "david asman" |
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| Title: Re: Why I Left Atheism - What is an atheist? |
28 Aug 2003 01:42:00 PM |
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dig wrote:
anyone who wants to answer
oleka2000@yahoo.com (Crazyalec) wrote in message news:<37c9d6cf.0308280116.7b847cd9@posting.google.com>...
cursedwretch@hotmail.com (dig) wrote in message news:<69dbc198.0308270916.6990fc13@posting.google.com>...
Funny how my analogy was ignored. If you
Who are you asking?
This is the analogy, right?
--
Police question potential witnessess. He asks 3 people what they saw:
1) Fred says he saw a woman run down the alley
2) Jane says she was watching the alley and no woman ever ran down it
3) Bill says he wasn't watching so he doesn't know
Can you just say that according to Bill no woman ever ran down that
alley, even though he's actually saying he doesn't know?
--
This was injected into the discussion of whether it is a
binary proposition that one either has or does not
have a belief in god, correct?
If any of these assumptions are inaccurate, please
let me know.
Well he said he didn't know, and I would probably
take him for his word. As far as whether his belief,
I could not make an accurate statement, since
he made no mention of his belief wrt the woman
running down the alley or not, and I have no way
of reading his mind. Would you like to change it
to Bill beleives he doesn't know?
I think if you want to create the proper agnostic position,
the statement wold be more appropriate as something
like, "Bill says the question of whether or not a woman was
running down the alley is not knowable."
However this does not really address the issue of whether
Bill happens to personally believe that a woman was
running down the alley or not, simply that he thinks the
question cannot be answered, by anyone.
You would also have to change, the first two
examples to "Fred believes a woman ran down. . ."
and "Jane has no belief that a woman ran down the
alley." To make it a more accurate analogy.
Also your analogy deals with something that is
observable, i.e a woman running down the alley.
Comparing it to something that even most believers
say is unobservable by objective standards. You
may want to change your woman running down the
alley, to an a giant ostrich that is invisible to all five senses
running down the alley.
Dave
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| User: "sparkup" |
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| Title: Re: Why I Left Atheism - What is an atheist? |
02 Sep 2003 06:07:44 AM |
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Crazyalec wrote:
"Editor of EvilBible.com" <Dont_Reply@Here.com> wrote in message news:<bi1f70$57c$1@bob.news.rcn.net>...
"John Popelish" <jpopelish@rica.net> wrote in message
news:3F440B46.36EF7065@rica.net...
Babies are not theists nor atheists. I have never seen a dictionary define
an atheist as "one who lacks a belief in a god or Gods" for precisely this
reason. And yet I have run into several people here who seem to think that
this is the definition for "atheist". Why do you insist on using such an
obviously flawed definition?
Is there any *****-tionary in the world, that define an "atheist" as
someone who is simply "not a theist"? No matter what the "theist" is?
The idea of "god" is already an idea....a belief.SO how can you
believe in a belief?
Its like saying "I love the love".
Nope...its like saying "I love the lover" which is perfectly reasonable.
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| User: "Crazyalec" |
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| Title: Re: Why I Left Atheism - What is an atheist? |
03 Sep 2003 04:42:25 AM |
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sparkup <junksender888@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:<S%_4b.30105$pK2.48722@news.indigo.ie>...
Nope...its like saying "I love the lover" which is perfectly reasonable.
So sparky, how was you lover Osama last night?
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| User: "John Popelish" |
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| Title: Re: Why I Left Atheism - What is an atheist? |
21 Aug 2003 10:26:42 AM |
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"Editor of EvilBible.com" wrote:
(snip)
It's flawed, that's why you won't find it in a dictionary. Everyone in the
world can not be grouped into only two groups, theist or atheist. The world
is more complex than that.
Look, you are certainly free to think any meaning you please when you
hear a particular word used. But you have been told the intended
meaning of the word atheist as it is used by many people who also
apply this adjective to describe ourselves. If you are determined to
misunderstand our intended meaning for this word, that is your right.
But I suggest you learn to live with disappointment if you expect your
intentional misunderstanding to alter our use of this word.
--
John Popelish
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| User: "John Popelish" |
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| Title: Re: Why I Left Atheism - What is an atheist? |
20 Aug 2003 11:25:34 PM |
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"Editor of EvilBible.com" wrote:
"John Popelish" <jpopelish@rica.net> wrote in message
news:3F440B46.36EF7065@rica.net...
Skypher wrote:
I am an ex-atheist, too. I think God tests ex-atheists more harshly
than
theists who were never atheists
So you are thinking that some babies exit the womb as theists? What
planet are you from? On this planet everyone is either atheist or
ex-atheist.
Babies are not theists nor atheists. I have never seen a dictionary define
an atheist as "one who lacks a belief in a god or Gods" for precisely this
reason. And yet I have run into several people here who seem to think that
this is the definition for "atheist". Why do you insist on using such an
obviously flawed definition?
I don't see the flaw. Theists are god believers. Everyone else is
atheist. It is a simple binary division. Do you think atheism
requires some decision or other? Some atheists have considered the
question of gods and dismissed them as somebody else's belief. Some
atheists haven't gotten to that consideration, yet. What do you call
all those who have no belief in the existence of gods if not atheist?
Webster suggest 'nonbeliever' as a synonym. I think this applies to
babies quite nicely.
--
John Popelish
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| User: "Editor of EvilBible.com" |
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| Title: Re: Why I Left Atheism - What is an atheist? |
21 Aug 2003 08:21:48 AM |
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"John Popelish" <jpopelish@rica.net> wrote in message
news:3F444B14.BC4A1BFA@rica.net...
"Editor of EvilBible.com" wrote:
"John Popelish" <jpopelish@rica.net> wrote in message
news:3F440B46.36EF7065@rica.net...
Skypher wrote:
I am an ex-atheist, too. I think God tests ex-atheists more harshly
than
theists who were never atheists
So you are thinking that some babies exit the womb as theists? What
planet are you from? On this planet everyone is either atheist or
ex-atheist.
Babies are not theists nor atheists. I have never seen a dictionary
define
an atheist as "one who lacks a belief in a god or Gods" for precisely
this
reason. And yet I have run into several people here who seem to think
that
this is the definition for "atheist". Why do you insist on using such
an
obviously flawed definition?
I don't see the flaw. Theists are god believers. Everyone else is
atheist. It is a simple binary division.
Just because you stick prefix an "a" to the front of a word X does not mean
that that word is defined as not-X. Consider the word "agnostic". Muslims
are not Gnostics and yet they are not agnostics.
Do you think atheism
requires some decision or other?
Yes I do. And so does every dictionary definition of atheism. Look it up.
Some atheists have considered the
question of gods and dismissed them as somebody else's belief.
Those are properly called atheists.
Some
atheists haven't gotten to that consideration, yet. What do you call
all those who have no belief in the existence of gods if not atheist?
There is no good word for them. But they are not atheists.
Webster suggest 'nonbeliever' as a synonym. I think this applies to
babies quite nicely.
My dictionary defines "nonbeliever" as "One who does no believe or have
faith, as in God or a philosophy." This requires a conscious decision to
not believe in God. A baby or a person who is undecided is not a
nonbeliever.
.
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| User: "Editor of EvilBible.com" |
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| Title: Re: Why I Left Atheism - What is an atheist? |
21 Aug 2003 09:09:38 PM |
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"Christopher A. Lee" <calee@optonline.net> wrote in message
news:jdgakvc1ff117k1b59hua7vekudnokrtk9@4ax.com...
On Thu, 21 Aug 2003 09:21:48 -0400, "Editor of EvilBible.com"
<Dont_Reply@Here.com> wrote:
"John Popelish" <jpopelish@rica.net> wrote in message
news:3F444B14.BC4A1BFA@rica.net...
"Editor of EvilBible.com" wrote:
"John Popelish" <jpopelish@rica.net> wrote in message
news:3F440B46.36EF7065@rica.net...
Skypher wrote:
I am an ex-atheist, too. I think God tests ex-atheists more
harshly
than
theists who were never atheists
So you are thinking that some babies exit the womb as theists?
What
planet are you from? On this planet everyone is either atheist or
ex-atheist.
Babies are not theists nor atheists. I have never seen a dictionary
define
an atheist as "one who lacks a belief in a god or Gods" for precisely
this
reason. And yet I have run into several people here who seem to
think
that
this is the definition for "atheist". Why do you insist on using
such
an
obviously flawed definition?
I don't see the flaw. Theists are god believers. Everyone else is
atheist. It is a simple binary division.
Just because you stick prefix an "a" to the front of a word X does not
mean
that that word is defined as not-X. Consider the word "agnostic".
Muslims
are not Gnostics and yet they are not agnostics.
Bad example. The word was coined from the original root of "gnostic"
meaning "knowledge" not the later one applied to certain early
Christian sects. Gnostic doesn't _only_ mean "gnostic Christians with
the word Christian dropped".
Do you think atheism
requires some decision or other?
Yes I do. And so does every dictionary definition of atheism. Look it
up.
What "THE dictionary definition of atheism"?
I've seen plenty of "dictionary definitions of atheism" which disagree
with you, and accurately describe us.
Well post some then. This thread has gotten very long and NO ONE has posted
a single definition from a dictionary that disagrees with me. A few people
have incorrectly paraphrased a definition, and a few people have said that
the prefix "a" defines an atheist as anyone who is not an atheist. Some
even posted definitions for "unbeliever" and said that that is also the
definition of an atheist. PLEASE post a definition from a dictionary that
agrees with you! I have posted several.
Some atheists have considered the
question of gods and dismissed them as somebody else's belief.
Those are properly called atheists.
Some
atheists haven't gotten to that consideration, yet. What do you call
all those who have no belief in the existence of gods if not atheist?
There is no good word for them. But they are not atheists.
Yes there is: atheist. By both derivation and dictionary definition.
Learn how dictionaries work.
See above.
Webster suggest 'nonbeliever' as a synonym. I think this applies to
babies quite nicely.
My dictionary defines "nonbeliever" as "One who does no believe or have
faith, as in God or a philosophy." This requires a conscious decision to
not believe in God. A baby or a person who is undecided is not a
nonbeliever.
What is there to be "undecided" about?
Some people are unsure or undecided about the existence of God. I'm not,
and I'm not so stupid as to think that there are undecided people.
And how the ***** does "this requires a conscious des=cision to not
believe in [something utterly irrelevant out of somebody else's
equally irrelevant religion]" follow from "One who does not
believe..."?
I have never seen this definition in a dictionary. Most say "disbelieve or
deny". If you think this is a dictionary definition then post it.
It's a non-sequitur. And I suggest you learn what "OR"
does in the definition: it creates multiple definitions. definition 1
OR definition 2 OR definition 3 OR definition 4. If any of them
sescribes somebody or theme thing then that label applies.
I suggest you post a definition so that we can properly discuss this issue.
Don't waste my time unless you post a dictionary definition.
.
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| User: "soCode" |
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| Title: Re: Why I Left Atheism - What is an atheist? |
22 Aug 2003 07:21:57 AM |
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Editor of EvilBible.com wrote:
I suggest you post a definition so that we can properly discuss this issue.
Don't waste my time unless you post a dictionary definition.
You asked for them; you got them. If you can't read them, I don't see
WTF you expect anyone to do about it.
www.m-w.com
disbelieve: not believe
soCode
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| User: "soCode" |
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| Title: Re: Why I Left Atheism - What is an atheist? |
22 Aug 2003 02:47:41 PM |
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Editor of EvilBible.com wrote:
"soCode" <news@socode.com> wrote in message
news:bi51t3$9st$2@ngspool-d02.news.aol.com...
Editor of EvilBible.com wrote:
I suggest you post a definition so that we can properly discuss this
issue.
Don't waste my time unless you post a dictionary definition.
You asked for them; you got them. If you can't read them, I don't see
WTF you expect anyone to do about it.
www.m-w.com
disbelieve: not believe
That's not complete! Why must you distort the definitions to try to win an
argument.
It really says:
Disbelieve: "To hold not worthy of belief: NOT BELIEVE"
I posted the relevant part of the definition. I also refrained from
posting the entire dictionary.
If you are so sure that "atheist" implies a lack of belief then it should be
very easy to find a few definitions that CLEARY state this. You haven't
even come close.
"Not believe" is literally this.
soCode
.
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| User: "soCode" |
|
| Title: Re: Why I Left Atheism - What is an atheist? |
23 Aug 2003 01:05:53 AM |
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Editor of EvilBible.com wrote:
This is getting ridiculous. If you want to stay ignorant and stubborn your
whole life that's fine with me. You don't even know how to use a
dictionary. I have tried to help teach you but all you do is hurl insults
and a call me stupid. If you won't admit that you don't understand the
basics of dictionaries, specifically that different definitions of the same
word HAVE DIFFERENT NUMBERS IN FRONT OF THEM, then there is no sense in
wasting my time on you. Bye
Unrelated meanings warrant separate numbers; related meanings do not.
soCode
.
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| User: "Roy" |
|
| Title: Re: Why I Left Atheism - What is an atheist? |
23 Aug 2003 08:57:31 AM |
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Editor of EvilBible.com wrote:
This is getting ridiculous. If you want to stay ignorant and stubborn your
whole life that's fine with me. You don't even know how to use a
dictionary. I have tried to help teach you but all you do is hurl insults
and a call me stupid. If you won't admit that you don't understand the
basics of dictionaries, specifically that different definitions of the same
word HAVE DIFFERENT NUMBERS IN FRONT OF THEM, then there is no sense in
wasting my time on you. Bye!
Wow. It appears that this person thinks that when a dictionary gives
multiple meaning for a word under the same heading they are additive,
not alternative. So, to pick an entry in Chambers at random:
Tart(1) sharp : biting : acidulous.
Tart(2) a dish of pastry distinguished from a pie either by being
uncovered by or containing sweet, not savory, materials : a girl :
a prostitute.
So a tart is apparently a naked hooker in a pastry case.
Stupid is right.
--
Roy
.
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| User: "Don Kresch" |
|
| Title: Re: Why I Left Atheism - What is an atheist? |
22 Aug 2003 07:21:39 PM |
|
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In alt.atheism on Fri, 22 Aug 2003 11:51:11 -0400, "Editor of
EvilBible.com" <Dont_Reply@Here.com> let us all know that:
"soCode" <news@socode.com> wrote in message
news:bi51t3$9st$2@ngspool-d02.news.aol.com...
Editor of EvilBible.com wrote:
I suggest you post a definition so that we can properly discuss this
issue.
Don't waste my time unless you post a dictionary definition.
You asked for them; you got them. If you can't read them, I don't see
WTF you expect anyone to do about it.
www.m-w.com
disbelieve: not believe
That's not complete!
Sure it is.
Why must you distort the definitions to try to win an
argument.
It really says:
Disbelieve: "To hold not worthy of belief: NOT BELIEVE"
You will note that this is one definition with a colon separating the
phrases. They are not numbered separately as separate definitions are.
Therefore, both phrases are one definition.
No, it's an or.
Don
---
aa #51, Knight of BAAWA, DNRC o-, Member of the [H]orde
Atheist Minister for St. Dogbert.
"No being is so important that he can usurp the rights of another"
Picard to Data/Graves "The Schizoid Man"
.
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| User: "Mekkala" |
|
| Title: Re: Why I Left Atheism - What is an atheist? |
22 Aug 2003 02:55:15 PM |
|
|
On 21 Aug 2003, "Editor of EvilBible.com" <Dont_Reply@Here.com> screwed
up his face, groaned, pushed hard, and farted out the following message
in news:bi3u1h$br$1@bob.news.rcn.net:
"Christopher A. Lee" <calee@optonline.net> wrote in message
news:jdgakvc1ff117k1b59hua7vekudnokrtk9@4ax.com...
On Thu, 21 Aug 2003 09:21:48 -0400, "Editor of EvilBible.com"
<Dont_Reply@Here.com> wrote:
"John Popelish" <jpopelish@rica.net> wrote in message
news:3F444B14.BC4A1BFA@rica.net...
"Editor of EvilBible.com" wrote:
"John Popelish" <jpopelish@rica.net> wrote in message
news:3F440B46.36EF7065@rica.net...
Skypher wrote:
I am an ex-atheist, too. I think God tests ex-atheists more
harshly
than
theists who were never atheists
So you are thinking that some babies exit the womb as theists?
What
planet are you from? On this planet everyone is either
atheist or ex-atheist.
Babies are not theists nor atheists. I have never seen a
dictionary
define
an atheist as "one who lacks a belief in a god or Gods" for
precisely
this
reason. And yet I have run into several people here who seem to
think
that
this is the definition for "atheist". Why do you insist on
using
such
an
obviously flawed definition?
I don't see the flaw. Theists are god believers. Everyone else
is atheist. It is a simple binary division.
Just because you stick prefix an "a" to the front of a word X does
not
mean
that that word is defined as not-X. Consider the word "agnostic".
Muslims
are not Gnostics and yet they are not agnostics.
Bad example. The word was coined from the original root of "gnostic"
meaning "knowledge" not the later one applied to certain early
Christian sects. Gnostic doesn't _only_ mean "gnostic Christians with
the word Christian dropped".
Do you think atheism
requires some decision or other?
Yes I do. And so does every dictionary definition of atheism. Look
it
up.
What "THE dictionary definition of atheism"?
I've seen plenty of "dictionary definitions of atheism" which
disagree with you, and accurately describe us.
Well post some then. This thread has gotten very long and NO ONE has
posted a single definition from a dictionary that disagrees with me.
A few people have incorrectly paraphrased a definition, and a few
people have said that the prefix "a" defines an atheist as anyone who
is not an atheist. Some even posted definitions for "unbeliever" and
said that that is also the definition of an atheist. PLEASE post a
definition from a dictionary that agrees with you! I have posted
several.
Some atheists have considered the
question of gods and dismissed them as somebody else's belief.
Those are properly called atheists.
Some
atheists haven't gotten to that consideration, yet. What do you
call all those who have no belief in the existence of gods if not
atheist?
There is no good word for them. But they are not atheists.
Yes there is: atheist. By both derivation and dictionary definition.
Learn how dictionaries work.
See above.
Webster suggest 'nonbeliever' as a synonym. I think this applies
to babies quite nicely.
My dictionary defines "nonbeliever" as "One who does no believe or
have faith, as in God or a philosophy." This requires a conscious
decision to not believe in God. A baby or a person who is undecided
is not a nonbeliever.
What is there to be "undecided" about?
Some people are unsure or undecided about the existence of God. I'm
not, and I'm not so stupid as to think that there are undecided
people.
And how the ***** does "this requires a conscious des=cision to not
believe in [something utterly irrelevant out of somebody else's
equally irrelevant religion]" follow from "One who does not
believe..."?
I have never seen this definition in a dictionary. Most say
"disbelieve or deny". If you think this is a dictionary definition
then post it.
atheist n. a person who does not believe in the existence of God
http://63.95.218.112/Definition.aspx?word=atheist
Courtesy of soCode.
It's a non-sequitur. And I suggest you learn what "OR"
does in the definition: it creates multiple definitions. definition 1
OR definition 2 OR definition 3 OR definition 4. If any of them
sescribes somebody or theme thing then that label applies.
I suggest you post a definition so that we can properly discuss this
issue. Don't waste my time unless you post a dictionary definition.
--
Mekkala, Atheist #2148
"When did I realize I was God? Well, I was praying and I suddenly
realized I was talking to myself!"
--Peter O'Toole.
.
|
|
|
| User: "Editor of EvilBible.com" |
|
| Title: Re: Why I Left Atheism - What is an atheist? |
22 Aug 2003 06:05:14 PM |
|
|
"Mekkala" <joremovedathiskimtoreply@attbi.com> wrote in message
news:Xns93DF991BFDCAFMekkala@199.45.49.11...
On 21 Aug 2003, "Editor of EvilBible.com" <Dont_Reply@Here.com> screwed
up his face, groaned, pushed hard, and farted out the following message
in news:bi3u1h$br$1@bob.news.rcn.net:
"Christopher A. Lee" <calee@optonline.net> wrote in message
news:jdgakvc1ff117k1b59hua7vekudnokrtk9@4ax.com...
On Thu, 21 Aug 2003 09:21:48 -0400, "Editor of EvilBible.com"
<Dont_Reply@Here.com> wrote:
"John Popelish" <jpopelish@rica.net> wrote in message
news:3F444B14.BC4A1BFA@rica.net...
"Editor of EvilBible.com" wrote:
"John Popelish" <jpopelish@rica.net> wrote in message
news:3F440B46.36EF7065@rica.net...
Skypher wrote:
I am an ex-atheist, too. I think God tests ex-atheists more
harshly
than
theists who were never atheists
So you are thinking that some babies exit the womb as theists?
What
planet are you from? On this planet everyone is either
atheist or ex-atheist.
Babies are not theists nor atheists. I have never seen a
dictionary
define
an atheist as "one who lacks a belief in a god or Gods" for
precisely
this
reason. And yet I have run into several people here who seem to
think
that
this is the definition for "atheist". Why do you insist on
using
such
an
obviously flawed definition?
I don't see the flaw. Theists are god believers. Everyone else
is atheist. It is a simple binary division.
Just because you stick prefix an "a" to the front of a word X does
not
mean
that that word is defined as not-X. Consider the word "agnostic".
Muslims
are not Gnostics and yet they are not agnostics.
Bad example. The word was coined from the original root of "gnostic"
meaning "knowledge" not the later one applied to certain early
Christian sects. Gnostic doesn't _only_ mean "gnostic Christians with
the word Christian dropped".
Do you think atheism
requires some decision or other?
Yes I do. And so does every dictionary definition of atheism. Look
it
up.
What "THE dictionary definition of atheism"?
I've seen plenty of "dictionary definitions of atheism" which
disagree with you, and accurately describe us.
Well post some then. This thread has gotten very long and NO ONE has
posted a single definition from a dictionary that disagrees with me.
A few people have incorrectly paraphrased a definition, and a few
people have said that the prefix "a" defines an atheist as anyone who
is not an atheist. Some even posted definitions for "unbeliever" and
said that that is also the definition of an atheist. PLEASE post a
definition from a dictionary that agrees with you! I have posted
several.
Some atheists have considered the
question of gods and dismissed them as somebody else's belief.
Those are properly called atheists.
Some
atheists haven't gotten to that consideration, yet. What do you
call all those who have no belief in the existence of gods if not
atheist?
There is no good word for them. But they are not atheists.
Yes there is: atheist. By both derivation and dictionary definition.
Learn how dictionaries work.
See above.
Webster suggest 'nonbeliever' as a synonym. I think this applies
to babies quite nicely.
My dictionary defines "nonbeliever" as "One who does no believe or
have faith, as in God or a philosophy." This requires a conscious
decision to not believe in God. A baby or a person who is undecided
is not a nonbeliever.
What is there to be "undecided" about?
Some people are unsure or undecided about the existence of God. I'm
not, and I'm not so stupid as to think that there are undecided
people.
And how the ***** does "this requires a conscious des=cision to not
believe in [something utterly irrelevant out of somebody else's
equally irrelevant religion]" follow from "One who does not
believe..."?
I have never seen this definition in a dictionary. Most say
"disbelieve or deny". If you think this is a dictionary definition
then post it.
atheist n. a person who does not believe in the existence of God
http://63.95.218.112/Definition.aspx?word=atheist
This could go on forever, but I'll give you one last post before I give up
on you.
Believe means "to accept as true or real", so this definition means:
"a person who does not accept as real the existence of God."
I interpret this as: "a person who has heard about God and thinks that he is
not real."
It is clear that you are interpreting this as "anyone who has no positive
beliefs concerning the existence of God."
All the other dictionary definitions that I have seen are clearly consistent
with my interpretation. I still think that this definition is only
consistent with my definition, but you are free to believe what you want.
So basically you have one definition that *might* be consistent with your
interpretation, but I doubt it. I am tired of arguing. If you can't do a
survey of various dictionaries and come to the same conclusion, then I don't
know what else to say.
.
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