| Topic: |
Religions > Atheism |
| User: |
"Io Saturna1ia!" |
| Date: |
04 Dec 2006 03:50:25 PM |
| Object: |
Re: Why is Christmas near the winter solstice? ` |
On 4 Dec 2006, "Liam Too" <liamtoo805@yahoo.com> wrote:
The idea that December 25 is Jesus' date of birth was popularized by
Sextus Julius Africanus in Chronographiai (AD 221), an early reference
book for Christians. It is both nine months after the Festival of
Annunciation (March 25) as well as the date that the Romans marked as
the winter solstice, which they called bruma.
Earlier, around AD 220, the theologian Tertullian declared that Jesus
died on March 25, 29. In chapter 8 of Tertullian's manuscript,
"Adversus Judaeos" AKA "An Answer to the Jews" or "Against the
Jews", he made the exact calculation of Jesus Christ's birth on 25
December.
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
I understand that that's the common orthodox Roman Catholic
belief. But casually bandying about phrases like "the exact
calculation" without providing incontrovertible scriptural,
historical, profane-historical and astronomical evidence is
conspicuously deficient in due diligence, and is an insult
to exactitude. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary
proof--presenting valid evidence which cannot be disproven.
Ergo, see:
http://www.freewebs.com/danieljosephmin/Mins_Historical_Calendar_Of_Jesus.pdf
Merry Christmas & Io Saturnalia!
Daniel Joseph Min
http://www.2hot2cool.com/11/danieljosephmin/
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| User: "Liam Too" |
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| Title: Re: Why is Christmas near the winter solstice? ` |
04 Dec 2006 04:08:08 PM |
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Io Saturna1ia! wrote:
I understand that that's the common orthodox Roman Catholic
belief. But casually bandying about phrases like "the exact
calculation" without providing incontrovertible scriptural,
historical, profane-historical and astronomical evidence is
conspicuously deficient in due diligence, and is an insult
to exactitude. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary
proof--presenting valid evidence which cannot be disproven.
I cited the books and chapter. Go read it and make the calculation.
Find out then come back and tell us that it isn't so.
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| User: "Chief Engineer" |
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| Title: Re: Why is Christmas near the winter solstice? ` |
04 Dec 2006 06:51:07 PM |
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-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
* drop from: ...|*iamtoo8*
*plonk*
See Ya Bye!!
Daniel Joseph Min
http://www.2hot2cool.com/11/danieljosephmin/
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pVsK5VIcNzaDwoWL/RK0Kzp9
=SXXs
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
.
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| User: "Liam Too" |
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| Title: Re: Why is Christmas near the winter solstice? ` |
05 Dec 2006 09:34:30 AM |
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Chief Engineer wrote:
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
* drop from: ...|*iamtoo8*
*plonk*
See Ya Bye!!
Daniel Joseph Min
I wonder why...
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| User: "Omega" |
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| Title: Re: Why is Christmas near the winter solstice? ` |
04 Dec 2006 07:29:37 PM |
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Io Saturna1ia! wrote:
On 4 Dec 2006, "Liam Too" <liamtoo805@yahoo.com> wrote:
The idea that December 25 is Jesus' date of birth was popularized by
Sextus Julius Africanus in Chronographiai (AD 221), an early reference
book for Christians. It is both nine months after the Festival of
Annunciation (March 25) as well as the date that the Romans marked as
the winter solstice, which they called bruma.
Earlier, around AD 220, the theologian Tertullian declared that Jesus
died on March 25, 29. In chapter 8 of Tertullian's manuscript,
"Adversus Judaeos" AKA "An Answer to the Jews" or "Against the
Jews", he made the exact calculation of Jesus Christ's birth on 25
December.
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
I understand that that's the common orthodox Roman Catholic
belief. But casually bandying about phrases like "the exact
calculation" without providing incontrovertible scriptural,
historical, profane-historical and astronomical evidence is
conspicuously deficient in due diligence, and is an insult
to exactitude. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary
proof--presenting valid evidence which cannot be disproven.
Ergo, see:
http://www.freewebs.com/danieljosephmin/Mins_Historical_Calendar_Of_Jesus.pdf
It is correct that Christians did take over a pagan holiday. In
reality, Jesus was more likely born near Rosh HaHoshana that year. I
had a discussion with academic friends a few years back on this topic.
They felt that most of the scholarship was pointing to Jesus being born
on or about Sept 11th, 3 BCE. That would have been when the "Feast of
Trumpets" would have been held that year. Without writing a book, the
basic issues are that the shepards would have not been in the hills
after early October, the "star" (more like a collection of stars) and
other aspects that all point to this date.
But it really does not matter. What is going on now is tradition, not
religion.
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: Why is Christmas near the winter solstice? ` |
05 Dec 2006 07:55:28 AM |
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Omega wrote:
It is correct that Christians did take over a pagan holiday.
I know it gets said; but when you ask to see evidence of a pre-existing
pagan holiday celebrated on 25 Dec. before Christmas, you find that
there isn't one. The Sol Invictus feast is only recorded from 354 AD
on.
Myself I think it probably *is* so -- I merely draw attention to the
lack of factual evidence for the statement.
All the best,
Roger Pearse
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: Why is Christmas near the winter solstice? ` |
08 Dec 2006 05:12:57 PM |
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wrote:
Omega wrote:
It is correct that Christians did take over a pagan holiday.
I know it gets said; but when you ask to see evidence of a pre-existing
pagan holiday celebrated on 25 Dec. before Christmas, you find that
there isn't one. The Sol Invictus feast is only recorded from 354 AD
on.
Of course there wasn't prior to the 4th century there wasn't a 25 Dec
the calendars were different...
Perhaps you should ask if there were winter celebrations among various
non Christian groups prior to 354...
or when there was first a Jesus birth celebration...
If you were to remove all things from your life associated with or
having their orgin in non Christian practices a great deal would
disappear...
1 and 2 century Christians didn't seem to be bothered with a lot of the
stuff that Christians today are focused on... how did todays Christians
become more spiritual and have greater knowledge...
Are Christians worshiping a God that transends dates or somethings
else...
Myself I think it probably *is* so -- I merely draw attention to the
lack of factual evidence for the statement.
All the best,
Roger Pearse
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: Why is Christmas near the winter solstice? ` |
11 Dec 2006 07:10:42 AM |
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wrote:
roger_pearse@yahoo.co.uk wrote:
Omega wrote:
It is correct that Christians did take over a pagan holiday.
I know it gets said; but when you ask to see evidence of a pre-existing
pagan holiday celebrated on 25 Dec. before Christmas, you find that
there isn't one. The Sol Invictus feast is only recorded from 354 AD
on.
Of course there wasn't prior to the 4th century there wasn't a 25 Dec
the calendars were different...
I'm not sure that I understand you; if you are saying that there was no
such date as the 25th of December, although the terminology for this
would be different, then I beg to disagree. I refer you to Roman
calendars of the 1st-4th centuries, in "Inscriptiones Italicae".
Myself I think it probably *is* so -- I merely draw attention to the
lack of factual evidence for the statement.
All the best,
Roger Pearse
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: Why is Christmas near the winter solstice? ` |
12 Dec 2006 04:18:56 AM |
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wrote:
vo_4@lycos.com wrote:
wrote:
Omega wrote:
It is correct that Christians did take over a pagan holiday.
I know it gets said; but when you ask to see evidence of a pre-existing
pagan holiday celebrated on 25 Dec. before Christmas, you find that
there isn't one. The Sol Invictus feast is only recorded from 354 AD
on.
Of course there wasn't prior to the 4th century there wasn't a 25 Dec
the calendars were different...
I'm not sure that I understand you; if you are saying that there was no
such date as the 25th of December, although the terminology for this
would be different, then I beg to disagree. I refer you to Roman
calendars of the 1st-4th centuries, in "Inscriptiones Italicae".
Then it wouldn't be 25 December...
Days do not fall the same on all calendars...
Myself I think it probably *is* so -- I merely draw attention to the
lack of factual evidence for the statement.
My hunch and only a hunch is that times and days were selected to build
on preexisting celebrations in order to maximize the effect... this
doesn't denigrate the person...
All the best,
Roger Pearse
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: Why is Christmas near the winter solstice? ` |
10 Dec 2006 02:46:16 AM |
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Transends dates?!?!?! The whole plan is based on dates and seasons! Boy
are you way off!
vo_4@lycos.com wrote
Are Christians worshiping a God that transends dates or somethings
else...
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: Why is Christmas near the winter solstice? ` |
10 Dec 2006 09:37:42 PM |
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vo_4@lycos.com wrote
Are Christians worshiping a God that transends dates or some thing
else...
Digimortal@starpower.net wrote:
Transends dates?!?!?! The whole plan is based on dates and seasons! Boy
are you way off!
Then your God is limited by dates, seasons, calendars?
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