bibon@râlant.org wrote:

On 28 Dec 2006 04:02:11 -0800,

(snip)

I have to go with my gut. And my gut tells me that any hypothetical
god worth worship would not reward dishonesty and cowardliness.
Pretending to believe something that makes no sense to me, just to save
my *****, would be an act of dishonesty and cowardliness. How could that
possibly earn me an eternal reward from a god deserving respect?

You are confused; there is no reward or punishment there is only
consequence...

You are avoiding answering my question with a semantic dodge.

Do you have any moral basis for your decisions other than (possibly
imagined) consequences to you?

bibon@râlant.org wrote:

Being caught in an enemy's crossfire and the BBs are flying like
mosquitoes has cured a lot of atheist.

It has also probably created many. It's hard to find God in the middle
of a war. If there really is a God, war is certainly not one of his more
obvious demonstrations of divine benevolence.

bibon@râlant.org wrote:

Being caught in an enemy's crossfire and the BBs are flying like
mosquitoes has cured a lot of atheist.

It has also probably created many. It's hard to find God in the middle
of a war. If there really is a God, war is certainly not one of his more
obvious demonstrations of divine benevolence.

Neil Kelsey wrote:

They are public definitions. And I don't care if you're religious, so
I'm not prejudiced. This is what you said earlier in this thread:

"Who taught you that. I'm certainly not anything close to being a xtian
and I know better then to suggest that there is nothing that follows
this mundane plane of existence."

That is a belief in the supernatural. You may not be a Christian, you
may not believe in a specific god, but the belief in an afterlife is a
religious concept requiring belief with no evidence and a leap of
faith. You may have abandonded the religion that introduced this idea,
but the afterlife is a religious idea.

You also said:

"Tales of reincarnation have permeated our human experience since the
beginning of recorded history - so while there may not be sufficient
evididence that it is true, we certainly don't have enough evidence to
declare that it is false."

Maybe you can see where I added one and one and got two. You're not
exactly forthcoming, and I told you I was guessing at what you think.
You seem to be intentionally vague about what you think so you can
deride people for not understanding you. As you do in this next
passage:

I don't "believe" in god. I don't "believe" in
reincarnation. I also don't "believe" in apples - but that
has never stopped me from eating one.
Nor do I "believe" in
air, but somehow I keep breathing. Still, you somehow think
that your opinion as to what "belief" consists of is more
important then any other person in this planet then just let
me simply say I am well satisfied that I don't have a belief
in "god" or "reincarnation" and any suggestion that you
might make to the contrary is nothing short of stupendous
lack of understanding about something that you should have
been taught a long time ago.

I'm not a mind reader and you keep implying that we're all idiots and
you have some special insight. What is it? You say there's an
afterlife, what is it? What specifically happens? If there's no deity
involved, then what is involved?

And no. We are not all earth people. What possessed you to
make that assumption? Talk about a far-fetched theory. What
are you basing your opinion on?

My opinion that we are all earth people is based on the fact that
humans evolved from earlier life forms here on earth and only left the
earth very recently, and they certainly didn't reproduce when they did.
So we are all from earth, hence we are earth people.

I'm really curious what you mean when you say we're not all "earth
people." What do you mean by that? What other kinds of people are
there?

I'm not a teacher either. I'm trying to start becoming a
student insofar as possible. I hope I have at least made it
to the point where I have not closed my mind to
possibilities. Unfortunately you seem to have chosen the
path of no possibilities, simply mistaken beliefs that don't
seem to be based on anything except what others have told
you.

People tell me all sorts of things. You're telling me something now
(well, barely. Getting you to say what you mean is like prying open a
reluctant clam). I tend to agree with people who back up their claims
with solid evidence.

Oh well, some people just aren't comfortable in the
realm of ideas and concepts and need something more stable
to lean on. I suppose it is a shame that you can't put up
with a little discomfort along the way.

I'm having this conversation with you, aren't I? Instead of hinting
that you have some great insight and sneering at us for not being you,
why don't you just say what your insight is? What are your ideas and
concepts that make you superior?

No it is not a "belief". And you trying to turn it into a
"belief" is hogwash. You are so hung up on the "belief"
thing that it keeps you from learning anything new. It has
become an obsession with you to label things as "belief"
when clearly they are not.

As to the rest, haven't you started to understand that I
cannot (in the strictest sense of the word) tell you?

I can suggest until I am blue in the face that you familiarize
yourself with the Tao Te Ching.

It serves as a signpost. But I can't tell you what it says now can I help you understand
it. Or start with the Tao of Physics.

Perhaps it is a pebble
along the path.

If this weren't the 21st century you could
be forgiven for not looking around you for the answers, but
with the "information highway" things that were once only
accessible to a few are now accessible to anyone with a
desire to learn. You won't bully me into spoon feeding you
because anything I give you, you can form some sort of
logical reason to reject.

The main argument my Christian friends give for the belief is that if
people did not believe in an afterlife, and in particular in eternal
punishment, there would be no motivation for people to be good.

They are telling me they only reason they do good is out of fear of
punishment. There is no virtue in that.

Ethicists have a 7 level scale of what motivates people to do good.
Fear of punishment is the level of a young child. These people are
stuck thinking like pre-schoolers. Come on you guys. Grow up.

The main argument my Christian friends give for the belief is that if
people did not believe in an afterlife, and in particular in eternal
punishment, there would be no motivation for people to be good.

They are telling me they only reason they do good is out of fear of
punishment. There is no virtue in that.

Ethicists have a 7 level scale of what motivates people to do good.
Fear of punishment is the level of a young child. These people are
stuck thinking like pre-schoolers. Come on you guys. Grow up.