DanielSan wrote:


<snip for brevity>

Amazing. Despite all the other religious books with information about
a deity, you sound as though the Bible is the only book you would refer
to for information.

About the Christian god? You bet.

How about the Koran?

That's not the Christian god.

Tao-te-ching?

Nor this.

Veda? Bhagavad Gita?

Nor these.

Why so much focus on the Christian God?

<snip for brevity>

True, but according to the Bible, only the Father has that quality,
and
the Father did not create the universe. Christ did.

Huh? Genesis says that God created the universe.

And the book of John declares that the Word (Christ) was God and that
through him all things were made. That would be the end of the story
were it not for Jesus' constant mentioning of the Father.

Possibly a contradiction in the Bible then?

I don't think so. As I said earlier, the only way to know the identity
of the deity is for the deity to identify himself (or herself as the
case may be). So here we have this deity in the bible that creates and
watches over the people he calles his chosen people. He tells us his
name and that he is eternal, but it isn't until the new testament that
we discover that the deity that men worshipped in the old testament was
the man they were spending time with here on earth. It was here that
that man revealed that there was a higher power than himself, something
not referred to in the old testament but which wouldn't have changed
anything if it had been revealed. People would still have been
required to worship Christ because he was their creator and deity.

This is not what I got out of my readings of the Bible, and I doubt that
many Christians got that either.

Possibly, but most Christians don't get the rapture out of the Bible
either. Remember that the Bible can mean different things to different
people. Calvinists believe in predestination. Baptists believe "once
saved, always saved." Catholics believe in purgatory. And so on and so
on.

What I take
from the bible is that Christ loved his creation enough to not want to
have to exist throughout eternity without them, but he reveals in the
new testament that we can never be with Christ in eternity because of
sin, and this was his father's rule. However, if Jesus would be
willing to suffer and die for the sins of his creation, then God would
permit that to be sufficient for him to forgive man's sins and allow
Christ to
be with those who trusted him. I don't see a contradiction here.

Well, Christians say that God (the "father") was the creative force in
the universe and that Jesus Christ (the "son") was sent to Earth for the
expressed purpose of leading people to Christianity and that he would,
eventually, be killed to release humans from "Original Sin."

The books of John and Colossians both refer to the son as the creative
force, but it makes little difference. There are so many splinters in
Christianity because no one can seem to agree on so many different
issues that one wonders what more harm can yet another disagreement
bring. :-)

I do
see a problem that no one in the old testament could see. The problem
is why couldn't Jesus just forgive man of his sins and let bygones be
bygones? Why the animal sacrifices? In the new testament we find out
why.

You're running in sharp contrast to many Christians.

As I do with my views on beer, music, drug legalization, politics, and
even...science.

If a man name John Smith is to

exist, god will know that. if he is evil, god will know that.
God has the personal responsibility of looking at the future
of his creation and making adecision to allow of halt things
as they go.

According to the Christian Bible, what you say is true.

And that is what we are referring to when we say "God" with a capital
"G."

True, but one needs to capitalize the G in order to make sure we know
which god we are talking about. His questions were clearly concerned
with the Christian God, but I never brought up or even hinted that the
God of Christianity is the deity that may have created the universe.

Do you assert that a deity (maybe not the Christian one, but any deity)
created the universe?

I don't assert anything of the sort.

Good. :-)

However, I do believe personally
that a deity did create the universe.

You may believe whatever you wish. As long as you do not tell me to
believe that, too. :-)

Fair enough.

I believe this for two reasons.
First, you and I are intelligent people. We both can look at the same
evidence and determine that it means that man is the most unique form
of life on the planet, or that the universe had a beginning.

I do not assert that man is the most unique form of life on the planet,
nor that the universe had a beginning. Man is just a form of life on
the planet; not unique. And there is nothing in evidence that says that
the universe had a beginning.

But how do you explain man's superior abilities and the big bang?

But after
that we disagree, though not because we're stupid and ignorant of the
facts. The facts are what they are, but what else do they mean besides
man being the most unique species or the universe having a beginning?

We disagree on this.

You might just be going with the facts without attempting to ascertain
if they are telling us something more than just purely naturalistic
information.

To me, there is nothing more. If there were more, there'd be evidence
of the "more."

But what if the evidence is there and you're just not seeing it? For
example, I was raised believing that the universe was less than 10,000
years old, and despite finishing first in my high school science
classes, I still did not recongnize the evidence that was contrary to
what I believed. What I believed was such a powerful force that only
when Supernova 1987-A appeared in the sky and was talked about all over
the news did I finally realize that there was a problem with my belief
in an young universe.

I, however, feel that there is more to the facts than just
a beginning for the universe or whatever else they indicate
naturalistically. I don't just ask what, how, when, and where. I also
ask why. Why did the universe come into being.

Does it have to have a reason?

As someone who enjoys science, I will say yes. Reasons are why we have
science at all.

Why is man the most
unique species on the planet.

Man isn't.

But isn't that ignoring the obvious?

Why is there a sudden "creation" of life
in the cambrian era?

I have an answer to that.

Well don't keep it to yourself. :-)

Why do birds fly south for the winter?

Awfully northern-hemisphere-centric of you to assume that all birds fly
south for the winter. *smile*

Another good point, but just focusing on the birds that do, the question
still remains.

Why do
bees make hives and spiders make webs but neither do so from having
been taught to do so?

Instincts. The same reason you jerk your hand back from a hot stove, or
throw your hands out to catch yourself when you fall, or spend so much
time wearing digital watches. ;-)

Not the same thing. Jerking your hand back from a hot stove is a reflex
caused by pain. Throwing your hands out to catch yourself when you fall
is a reflex caused by fear of getting hurt which is itself caused by
previous experiences with pain. Neither of these things leads to
anything creative. If I was born and raised without being taught
anything and then suddenly went out and started building cars, then I
would have instincts.

I'm not suggesting you don't ask why yourself, but I
believe that without a desire to wonder if there is more to life than
what we can experience with our senses, one will only see the facts as
facts that mean what our senses tell us but nothing more.

That is enough for me. :-)

For me, I do
wonder if there is something more than just the everyday monotony we
call life.

I find beauty in life. I believe that life is what you make of it. I,
for one, find no monotony in life.

But some do. I find beauty in life as well, but the monotony for me
comes when I stop and wonder if everything I have experienced and all
that I have yet to experience is for a reason. If there is no reason,
why make anything out of life? You live. You die. Just enjoy yourself
and forget about leaving your mark because if death is really
obliteration, then why not just experience all the pleasure you can
while you can. But then that, too, becomes monotonous because it leaves
you wondering if there wasn't something else you could have been doing
that would have served some more noble purpose than the endless pursuit
of entertainment.

If the universe was created, perhaps it was created for a
reason.

Or perhaps not.

If I am unique above all other species, is there a special
reason why I am that way?

Are you above all other species? Why do you feel this way?

Just reread what I wrote in the original post. Although I love all
animals, I know that I cannot depend on any animal to find out what's
wrong with me when I'm sick. Animals cannot even depend on each other.
We help them. What animal goes around healing other species of their
ailments? That to me is another reason why I consider man to be above
all other species.

Are spiders spinning webs because they serve
a predetermined purpose, or did it just happen without a reason besides
time and chance just causing it to happen?

Yes. Spiderwebs serve a purpose. Dual purpose, even. A home for the
spider and a net for food.

Okay, but how did they get that purpose as part of their instincts? How
did they learn to spin their webs without being taught to do so? The
fact that they seem to know what to do and that they're fulfilling their
purpose in life seems to me to be indicative of design, not chance. If
you have ten different species all living together in the same habitat
and they've been coexisting for thousands of years in the same place,
why do all the animals continue doing their own thing? How come they
haven't learned each other's language? Why haven't cats learned to bark
and vice versa? It's that seemingly fixed purpose each species appears
to have that makes me think of design, especially when I consider how
radically different man is when compared to every other species.

That's one reason I believe
a deity created the universe. The second is that I want to believe
that when I die I will see my mom and dad, my nephew, my aunts and
uncles, and my friends that have all passed away.

That is a nice thing to believe. I just cannot do that.

I know you're as capable of loving people as I am, and that makes me
curious about something. Forgetting about religion, how are you able to
just let go and not think about the possibility of ever seeing those
you've lost again?

If there is no purpose, no
reason for living, then that last touch, that last kiss, that last
"hello" and that last "goodbye" is a curse that can only be removed by
dying.

I simply remember the nice times I had with my loved ones. I remember
them how they were.

I feel better believing that those last things with those I no
longer see, hear, or touch are only the last until the next time. It's
what keeps me going.

And if it keeps you going, more power to you!

I
guess he assumed that whenever someone mentions deity they just mean
God and not god, Allah, Zeus, etc.

Possibly. When I say "deity" I usually mean any entity that is
worshipped as a controlling power, and, in some cases, is conscripted
as
the creator of the world/universe/reality/etc. Basically a generic
catch-all.

Therefore, Allah is a deity, Zeus is a deity, Jealous is a deity, and
so forth.

Good point. Even love can be a deity I suppose.

Love is not a controlling power with supernatural forces, though.

Tell that to Helen and Paris. ;-)

DanielSan wrote:


<snip for brevity>

Amazing. Despite all the other religious books with information about a
deity, you sound as though the Bible is the only book you would refer to
for information.

About the Christian god? You bet.

How about the Koran?

That's not the Christian god.

Tao-te-ching?

Nor this.

Veda? Bhagavad Gita?

Nor these.

Why so much focus on the Christian God?

<snip for brevity>

True, but according to the Bible, only the Father has that quality, and
the Father did not create the universe. Christ did.

Huh? Genesis says that God created the universe.

And the book of John declares that the Word (Christ) was God and that
through him all things were made. That would be the end of the story
were it not for Jesus' constant mentioning of the Father.

Possibly a contradiction in the Bible then?

I don't think so. As I said earlier, the only way to know the identity
of the deity is for the deity to identify himself (or herself as the
case may be). So here we have this deity in the bible that creates and
watches over the people he calles his chosen people. He tells us his
name and that he is eternal, but it isn't until the new testament that
we discover that the deity that men worshipped in the old testament was
the man they were spending time with here on earth. It was here that
that man revealed that there was a higher power than himself, something
not referred to in the old testament but which wouldn't have changed
anything if it had been revealed. People would still have been required
to worship Christ because he was their creator and deity.

This is not what I got out of my readings of the Bible, and I doubt that
many Christians got that either.

Possibly, but most Christians don't get the rapture out of the Bible
either. Remember that the Bible can mean different things to different
people. Calvinists believe in predestination. Baptists believe "once
saved, always saved." Catholics believe in purgatory. And so on and so
on.

What I take
from the bible is that Christ loved his creation enough to not want to
have to exist throughout eternity without them, but he reveals in the
new testament that we can never be with Christ in eternity because of
sin, and this was his father's rule. However, if Jesus would be willing
to suffer and die for the sins of his creation, then God would permit
that to be sufficient for him to forgive man's sins and allow Christ to
be with those who trusted him. I don't see a contradiction here.

Well, Christians say that God (the "father") was the creative force in
the universe and that Jesus Christ (the "son") was sent to Earth for the
expressed purpose of leading people to Christianity and that he would,
eventually, be killed to release humans from "Original Sin."

The books of John and Colossians both refer to the son as the creative
force, but it makes little difference. There are so many splinters in
Christianity because no one can seem to agree on so many different
issues that one wonders what more harm can yet another disagreement
bring. :-)

I do
see a problem that no one in the old testament could see. The problem
is why couldn't Jesus just forgive man of his sins and let bygones be
bygones? Why the animal sacrifices? In the new testament we find out
why.

You're running in sharp contrast to many Christians.

As I do with my views on beer, music, drug legalization, politics, and
even...science.

If a man name John Smith is to

exist, god will know that. if he is evil, god will know that.
God has the personal responsibility of looking at the future
of his creation and making adecision to allow of halt things
as they go.

According to the Christian Bible, what you say is true.

And that is what we are referring to when we say "God" with a capital "G."

True, but one needs to capitalize the G in order to make sure we know
which god we are talking about. His questions were clearly concerned
with the Christian God, but I never brought up or even hinted that the
God of Christianity is the deity that may have created the universe.

Do you assert that a deity (maybe not the Christian one, but any deity)
created the universe?

I don't assert anything of the sort.

Good. :-)

However, I do believe personally
that a deity did create the universe.

You may believe whatever you wish. As long as you do not tell me to
believe that, too. :-)

Fair enough.

I believe this for two reasons.
First, you and I are intelligent people. We both can look at the same
evidence and determine that it means that man is the most unique form of
life on the planet, or that the universe had a beginning.

I do not assert that man is the most unique form of life on the planet,
nor that the universe had a beginning. Man is just a form of life on
the planet; not unique. And there is nothing in evidence that says that
the universe had a beginning.

But how do you explain man's superior abilities and the big bang?

But after
that we disagree, though not because we're stupid and ignorant of the
facts. The facts are what they are, but what else do they mean besides
man being the most unique species or the universe having a beginning?

We disagree on this.

You might just be going with the facts without attempting to ascertain
if they are telling us something more than just purely naturalistic
information.

To me, there is nothing more. If there were more, there'd be evidence
of the "more."

But what if the evidence is there and you're just not seeing it? For
example, I was raised believing that the universe was less than 10,000
years old, and despite finishing first in my high school science
classes, I still did not recongnize the evidence that was contrary to
what I believed. What I believed was such a powerful force that only
when Supernova 1987-A appeared in the sky and was talked about all over
the news did I finally realize that there was a problem with my belief
in an young universe.

I, however, feel that there is more to the facts than just
a beginning for the universe or whatever else they indicate
naturalistically. I don't just ask what, how, when, and where. I also
ask why. Why did the universe come into being.

Does it have to have a reason?

As someone who enjoys science, I will say yes. Reasons are why we have
science at all.

Why is man the most
unique species on the planet.

Man isn't.

But isn't that ignoring the obvious?

Why is there a sudden "creation" of life
in the cambrian era?

I have an answer to that.

Well don't keep it to yourself. :-)

Why do birds fly south for the winter?

Awfully northern-hemisphere-centric of you to assume that all birds fly
south for the winter. *smile*

Another good point, but just focusing on the birds that do, the question
still remains.

Why do
bees make hives and spiders make webs but neither do so from having been
taught to do so?

Instincts. The same reason you jerk your hand back from a hot stove, or
throw your hands out to catch yourself when you fall, or spend so much
time wearing digital watches. ;-)

Not the same thing. Jerking your hand back from a hot stove is a reflex
caused by pain. Throwing your hands out to catch yourself when you fall
is a reflex caused by fear of getting hurt which is itself caused by
previous experiences with pain.

Neither of these things leads to
anything creative.

If I was born and raised without being taught
anything and then suddenly went out and started building cars, then I
would have instincts.