| Topic: |
Religions > Atheism |
| User: |
"V" |
| Date: |
12 Jan 2008 09:31:56 AM |
| Object: |
Re: Why the hybrid car racket will fail. |
On Jan 11, 8:51=EF=BF=BDpm, Igor The Terrible
<igor_the_terri...@mad.scientist.com> wrote:
Stagnant wages. =EF=BF=BDIncome gap. =EF=BF=BDWorthless dollar. =EF=BF=BDA=
ll the above....take
your pick. =EF=BF=BDHowever, the bottom line is you are looking at a very =
thin
market. =EF=BF=BDThe new high mileage hybrids will be well out of the reac=
h of
the Wal-Mart/McDonald plant workers. =EF=BF=BDWhen you consider they will =
cost
roughly $9,000.00 more than their gasoline powered counterparts that
they can't even think of owning, where is the market.
Now for those with more dollars and sense, what do you think they are
going to be worth after you have owned them for a few years and the
batteries will need replacing? =EF=BF=BDYour depreciation is going to wipe=
out
any savings that you thought you might have
realized.
So get used to driving your gas hog--unless, of course, you can build
your own fuel efficient vehicle.
It is an absolute shame when the top 5% won't buy 95% of the goods and
services in their own country.
Let the war among businesses for the fight over market tablescraps
begin. =EF=BF=BD;-)
http://cosmos.bcst.yahoo.com/up/player/popup/?rn=3D3906861&cl=3D5911409&c.=
...
Good points.
I looked at an electric MX motorcycle and they wanted $10,000 for it.
A gas powered one of higher quality costs only $5500.
Really they will need plug in hybrid cars to get 125+ MPG just to 'run
in place' as our gas prices will be skyrocketing in the near future
with increasing worldwide fossil fuel demands....40 - 50 MPG will go
nowhere in the upcoming years.
The scary thing is CHINDIA is just starting to bloom with their
demands for fossil fuels We haven't seen anything yet with the
meteoric rise of gas, energy and over consumption.
In China the per capita car ownership rate is 40 car owners per 1000
persons. In India it is much lower, running 8 cars per 1000 people. As
these two giants evolve more of their population will want cars...in
India, they have made a $2500 car as well.
http://www.greencarcongress.com/2006/05/percapita_car_o.html
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/20394364/
I think our countries future will be that of...'America...a
Democratic, Communist Nation Under God.'
Life as we know it in America is coming to an end in the not so
distant future.
And maybe I am using the wrong word with communism?
Maybe it should be Nationalism? Socialism? I don't know since I have
little interest in politics.
As far for what I means, it could be compared somewhat to Plato's
Republic. Where the republic came first and people came second.
But with the US, the injection of Democratic values as well as a
spiritual foundation that supports our country from its earliest
beginnings would 'hopefully' separate us from the atheist based
communists that have been run as dictatorships.
Am I as Christian zealot?
No, I am an agnostic freethinker.
As for why I have come up with such a bold statement as 'America...a
Democratic, Communist Nation Under God?'
See these DVD's
1940's House PBS (albeit our enemy is not Germany...it is energy) And
witness something along the lines of a 'Democratic, Communist Nation
Under God.'
http://www.amazon.com/1940s-House-Marguerite-Patten/dp/B0000AYL47
A Crude Awakening
http://www.oilcrashmovie.com/
End of Suburbia
http://www.endofsuburbia.com/
Oil Apocalypse
http://store.aetv.com/html/product/index.jhtml?id=3D108290
See these books:
http://www.amazon.com/Out-Gas-End-Age-Oil/dp/0393058573
http://www.amazon.com/Hubberts-Peak-Impending-World-Shortage/dp/0691116253
http://www.lastoilshock.com/
=2E..put it all together and you have 'America...a Democratic, Communist
Nation Under God.' as the 'best fit ' equation.
And for dessert...add 'politics as usual'
See:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Who_Killed_the_Electric_Car%3F
And we can see nothing substantive will or can be done in the US to
fix our woes.
BTW, do I like communism?
No, not really, I like things EXACTLY as they are. I like being an
energy ***** and sucking down the crude just as you do. I like running
my dirt bikes, jet skis, RV and driving my car.
But what I like doesn't matter...neither does what you like matter.
What does matter is 'what our country likes' or more appropriately
'needs' in order to survive.
If we look at the root of communism it is that of the commune-ist. The
hippy communes and the Israeli Kibbutz's and the modern day survival
devotees that plan to buy some land and develop a 'survival community'
to live of the land all share in the same commune-ist dream.
But the point is not to persuade you to be a communist, but to foster
a realization that for the US to survive, we must put 'what matters to
our country' on the front burner...and as our country survives...so do
we survive.
Alan Watts used to say, it doesn't matter what you think, it doesn't
matter what you like, it doesn't matter what you hope for...all that
really matters is what IS.
Sure we keep our treasured paper money, our guns, and what have you.
Guns are a populations last line of defense.
Look at Afghanistan...they beat Russia and the US is still having
trouble with 'the people' there....all because of an armed
population.
BTW, whenever I think of the Afghanis I think back to the poem.
"When you're wounded and left on Afghanistan's plains,
And the women come out to cut up what remains,
Jest roll to your rifle and blow out your brains.
And go to your Gawd like a soldier" ~ Kipling
So NEVER, NEVER give up your guns...for when the guns go, so does your
freedom. Guns are the foundation of freedom.
Money??
Well, money will not be worth much anyway. Money is nothing more than
stored energy. But since the crude dried up, the 'real energy' behind
the money has vanished...and so did private industry.
So, what is money good for nowadays...to wipe your *****?
Not really, the government supplied toilet paper works better than
that.
What about the coal mines? All government owned. If you want to eat
you work in the mines or where the gov places you...it is that
simple.
This is how our country can claim to be a 'communist democracy' We are
not a slave driven dictatorship, You still have 'some freedoms.' You
can work or not work as you please. But, don't expect a gov handout if
you do not want to contribute to the countries survival needs....and
as our country survives so do we survive.
Religion? Well, the atheists can still be atheists and the Christians,
Muslims and Jews can still worship as they like.
But the big difference in our government is; instead of the ego based
decisions that politicians and the titans of business get sucked into,
the politicians will put the long term US viability as top priority
over personal profit.
How do we accomplish this? I don't know, since politicians are
normally ego based, lying, power hungry individuals. But this is an
area that has to be perfected the best we can with accepting we deal
with imperfect humans.
If we look at the various powers the government has though executive
orders, we are pretty much there (a Democratic, Communist Nation Under
God.) without much effort.
Here are just a few of them...
EXECUTIVE ORDER 10990 allows the government to take over all modes of
transportation and control of highways and seaports.
EXECUTIVE ORDER 10995 allows the government to seize and control the
communication media.
EXECUTIVE ORDER 10997 allows the government to take over all
electrical power, gas, petroleum, fuels and minerals.
EXECUTIVE ORDER 10998 allows the government to take over all food
resources and farms.
EXECUTIVE ORDER 11000 allows the government to mobilize civilians into
work brigades under government supervision.
EXECUTIVE ORDER 11001 allows the government to take over all health,
education and welfare functions.
EXECUTIVE ORDER 11002 designates the Postmaster General to operate a
national registration of all persons.
EXECUTIVE ORDER 11003 allows the government to take over all airports
and aircraft, including commercial aircraft.
EXECUTIVE ORDER 11004 allows the Housing and Finance Authority to
relocate communities, build new housing with public funds, designate
areas to be abandoned, and establish new locations for populations.
EXECUTIVE ORDER 11005 allows the government to take over railroads,
inland waterways and public storage facilities.
http://sonic.net/sentinel/gvcon5.html
What happened to all our individual freedoms with these executive
orders?
It was lost long ago in the deluded American dream that believes the
individual American can survive on their own. Without a strong
government you guys would be speaking Chinese or Russian. What
happened to the personal property of Iraq when the US took it down?
Ditto for your homes and McMansions if another country decided 'to
move' here.
You think it is political biz as usual in the US in the upcoming
election?
It makes little difference.
The world is in a death spiral and politicians as well as industry are
pretending this problem does not exist. No Politician can fix our
woes. the best we can do is to make the most of our dilemma.
We can only blame ourselves, for it is just how we have built our
world over the years....too many people, living outside of natures
intended balance and not an infinite supply of energy to fuel all our
demands.
So Dem or Rep...any politician in charge had better come to terms with
how things really are and not live in dream land...we are running out
of time as our fossil fuel supplies dwindle.
You know every country will not run out of crude all at once.
Without energy our country is open for takeover ... no jets...no
tanks...no transport on the ground or in the air. Luckily we will
still have nuclear powered submarines and aircraft carriers as long as
the uranium holds out. But the jets on the flattop all use jet fuel.
All the supplies for those subs and carriers petroleum dependent.
Other countries such as Russia that have a good supply of nationally
based crude may not be so kind to keep on selling it to us, We will
need a 'local and continual' source somewhat within our borders for
national security. You see, jet fuel as well as gasoline deteriorates
and cannot be stored indefinitely. So we must always be producing some
of it to replace the stale stuff to supply the military.
So long before the crude dries up the government must 'secure a
supply' of crude for it own needs. This is what is driving the North
American Union. This is why illegal aliens are pretty much free to do
what they wish in the US.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_American_Union
NAFTA came about as a way for the US to get its hands on the energy
output of Canada and Mexico. And part of that agreement (unwritten)
was to relax the law somewhat on the illegals coming from Mexico.
In short...if you want our crude you take some of our illegals
As our world changes and our drug supply dries up, things will only
get worse. And the bigger the city - the bigger the hellhole it will
become. And this time RIGHT NOW is the defining moment as to whether
most of our population will die off or not in the crisis that awaits
us in the not so distant future.
Besides crude oil, have you ever thought about how much of our life is
dependent on natural gas for cooking, heating and hot water?
How many of our homes are set up for efficient heating with natural
methods such as wood, pellet, passive solar?
My house is not.
I never gave this subject any thought until I learned about peak
natural gas. And by then it was too late.
My house is as far as it can be from the 'ideal house' that can be
heated my natural methods. And to make maters worse, I live in the NE
US, where it gets plenty cold.
Do you know that much of your life is dependent on natural gas
*outside* its use as an energy source?
Natural gas is a raw material in many of our products we depend on.
Almost all the helium we produce comes from natural gas.
Propane, synthetic fertilizers, ammonia?
They are totally dependent on natural gas.
Our population boom was fueled by synthetic fertilizers made from
natural; gas. Once the gas dries up so does the fertilizer and a
shortage of fertilizer equals a shortage of food.
Natural; gas is also used as an energy source to produce steel, glass,
paper, clothing, brick, electricity
We will run out of natural gas, just as we deplete our crude supplies
in the near future.
http://www.amazon.com/High-Noon-Natural-Gas-Energy/dp/1931498539
http://www.enotes.com/how-products-encyclopedia/natural-gas
http://www.ipm.iastate.edu/ipm/icm/2003/4-14-2003/natgasn.html
http://www.eia.doe.gov/kids/energyfacts/sources/non-renewable/naturalgas.htm=
l#WHATITISUSEDFOR
Many people just think of crude oil for gasoline production.
=46rom this list we can see that we are still massively depend on crude
for our non sustainable lifestyle. There is no replacement for
crude...crude is in the details of our life.
So even if we all stop driving we will just be postponing the
inevitable that our artificial way of living is going to change in the
not so distant future.
A partial list of products made from Petroleum (144 of over 6000
items) One 42-gallon barrel of oil creates 19.4 gallons of gasoline.
The rest (over half) is used to make things like:
Solvents Diesel Motor Oil Bearing Grease
Ink Floor Wax Ballpoint Pens Football Cleats
Upholstery Sweaters Boats Insecticides
Bicycle Tires Sports Car Bodies Nail Polish Fishing lures
Dresses Tires Golf Bags Perfumes
Cassettes Dishwasher Tool Boxes Shoe Polish
Motorcycle Helmet Caulking Petroleum Jelly Transparent Tape
CD Player Faucet Washers Antiseptics Clothesline
Curtains Food Preservatives Basketballs Soap
Vitamin Capsules Antihistamines Purses Shoes
Dashboards Cortisone Deodorant Footballs
Putty Dyes Panty Hose Refrigerant
Percolators Life Jackets Rubbing Alcohol Linings
Skis TV Cabinets Shag Rugs Electrician's Tape
Tool Racks Car Battery Cases Epoxy Paint
Mops Slacks Insect Repellent Oil Filters
Umbrellas Yarn Fertilizers Hair Coloring
Roofing Toilet Seats Fishing Rods Lipstick
Denture Adhesive Linoleum Ice Cube Trays Synthetic Rubber
Speakers Plastic Wood Electric Blankets Glycerin
Tennis Rackets Rubber Cement Fishing Boots Dice
Nylon Rope Candles Trash Bags House Paint
Water Pipes Hand Lotion Roller Skates Surf Boards
Shampoo Wheels Paint Rollers Shower Curtains
Guitar Strings Luggage Aspirin Safety Glasses
Antifreeze Football Helmets Awnings Eyeglasses
Clothes Toothbrushes Ice Chests Footballs
Combs CD's Paint Brushes Detergents
Vaporizers Balloons Sun Glasses Tents
Heart Valves Crayons Parachutes Telephones
Enamel Pillows Dishes Cameras
Anesthetics Artificial Turf Artificial limbs Bandages
Dentures Model Cars Folding Doors Hair Curlers
Cold cream Movie film Soft Contact lenses Drinking Cups
Fan Belts Car Enamel Shaving Cream Ammonia
Refrigerators Golf Balls Toothpaste Gasoline
Americans consume petroleum products at a rate of three-and-a-half
gallons of oil and more than 250 cubic feet of natural gas per day
each!
http://www.beloit.edu/~SEPM/Geology_and_the_enviro/Petroleum_need.html
Realize this, throughout history many great nations that once were are
not around any longer.
Hopefully the US will understand this and start accepting the truth
that something has to give and it can't be business as usual.
Always remember, none of us will be ultimate survivors, we all have to
die one day. But the successful survivor extends his or her life
beyond an earlier death...a death that was caused by ignorance of how
to make that life last longer.
You still have some valuable time left to prepare for what awaits you
down the road.
We are in the 'Indian Summer' of a carbon based world. Don't wait
until the winter sets in to start work on your preparedness efforts.
Also see:
Beyond Civilization: humanity's next great adventure
by Quinn, Daniel
Beyond Oil: the view from Hubbert's Peak
by Deffeyes, Kenneth S.
http://www.princeton.edu/hubbert/
Bowling Alone: the collapse and revival of American community
by Putnam, Robert D.
Breathe No Evil
Safe-Tek Publishers
Collapse
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collapse_(book
The Coming Economic Collapse - how you can thrive when oil costs $200
a barrel
by Leeb, Stephen
Crossing the Rubicon: the decline of the American empire at the end of
the age of oil
by Ruppert, Michael C.
Dancing at Armageddon: Survivalism and Chaos in Modern Times
by Richard G. Mitchell Jr
The Long Emergency: surviving the converging catastrophes of the
twenty-first century
by Kunstler, James Howard
The Oil Depletion Protocol : a plan to avert oil wars, terrorism and
economic collapse
by Heinberg, Richard
Peak Oil Survival: preparation for life after gridcrash
by McBay, Aric
Powerdown: options and actions for a post-carbon world
by Heinberg, Richard
Resource Wars: the new landscape of global conflict
by Klare, Michael T
http://www.amazon.com/Resource-Wars-Landscape-Conflict-Introduction/dp/08050=
55762
A Thousand Barrels a Second: the coming oil break point and the
challenges facing an energy dependent world
by Tertzakian, Peter
Twilight in the Desert: the coming Saudi oil shock and the world
economy
by Simmons, Matthew R.
Zoom:the global race to fuel the car of the future
by Iain Carson and Vijay V. Vaitheeswaran.
Take care,
V (Male)
Agnostic Freethinker
Practical Philosopher
Futurist
Urban Homesteader
Agnostic minister of secular humanism to the mind-
manacled...spiritually sick...defiance based atheist.
AA#2
.
|
|
| User: "Igor The Terrible" |
|
| Title: Re: Why the hybrid car racket will fail. |
12 Jan 2008 03:53:30 PM |
|
|
On Jan 12, 10:31=C2=A0am, V <vf...@aol.com> wrote:
On Jan 11, 8:51=EF=BF=BDpm, Igor The Terrible
<igor_the_terri...@mad.scientist.com> wrote:
Stagnant wages. =EF=BF=BDIncome gap. =EF=BF=BDWorthless dollar. =EF=BF=
=BDAll the above....take
your pick. =EF=BF=BDHowever, the bottom line is you are looking at a ver=
y thin
market. =EF=BF=BDThe new high mileage hybrids will be well out of the re=
ach of
the Wal-Mart/McDonald plant workers. =EF=BF=BDWhen you consider they wil=
l cost
roughly $9,000.00 more than their gasoline powered counterparts that
they can't even think of owning, where is the market.
Now for those with more dollars and sense, what do you think they are
going to be worth after you have owned them for a few years and the
batteries will need replacing? =EF=BF=BDYour depreciation is going to wi=
pe out
any savings that you thought you might have
realized.
So get used to driving your gas hog--unless, of course, you can build
your own fuel efficient vehicle.
It is an absolute shame when the top 5% won't buy 95% of the goods and
services in their own country.
Let the war among businesses for the fight over market tablescraps
begin. =EF=BF=BD;-)
http://cosmos.bcst.yahoo.com/up/player/popup/?rn=3D3906861&cl=3D5911409&c=
....
Good points.
I looked at an electric MX motorcycle and they wanted $10,000 for it.
A gas powered one of higher quality costs only $5500.
Really they will need plug in hybrid cars to get 125+ MPG just to 'run
in place' as our gas prices will be skyrocketing in the near future
with increasing worldwide fossil fuel demands....40 - 50 MPG will go
nowhere in the upcoming years.
The scary thing is CHINDIA is just starting to bloom with their
demands for fossil fuels We haven't seen anything yet with the
meteoric rise of gas, energy and over consumption.
You are 1,000% correct on this. The genie is out of the bottle and
there is no way of getting that SOB back in. Can you see another
several hundred million vehicles on the road in the next 20 years?
The giant sucking sound H. Ross Perot was speaking of will not be the
sound of jobs in flight, rather, the remaining drops of crude being
sucked out of the ground. I have no idea how this coming situation
can possibly be managed outside of extremely brutal rationing.
Good call!!!
In China the per capita car ownership rate is 40 car owners per 1000
persons. In India it is much lower, running 8 cars per 1000 people. As
these two giants evolve more of their population will want cars...in
India, they have made a $2500 car as well.
http://www.greencarcongress.com/2006/05/percapita_car_o.html
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/20394364/
I think our countries future will be that of...'America...a
Democratic, Communist Nation Under God.'
Life as we know it in America is coming to an end in the not so
distant future.
And maybe I am using the wrong word with communism?
Maybe it should be Nationalism? Socialism? I don't know since I have
little interest in politics.
As far for what I means, it could be compared somewhat to Plato's
Republic. Where the republic came first and people came second.
But with the US, the injection of Democratic values as well as a
spiritual foundation that supports our country from its earliest
beginnings would 'hopefully' separate us from the atheist based
communists that have been run as dictatorships.
Am I as Christian zealot?
No, I am an agnostic freethinker.
As for why I have come up with such a bold statement as 'America...a
Democratic, Communist Nation Under God?'
See these DVD's
1940's House PBS (albeit our enemy is not Germany...it is energy) And
witness something along the lines of a 'Democratic, Communist Nation
Under God.'
http://www.amazon.com/1940s-House-Marguerite-Patten/dp/B0000AYL47
A Crude Awakeninghttp://www.oilcrashmovie.com/
End of Suburbiahttp://www.endofsuburbia.com/
Oil Apocalypsehttp://store.aetv.com/html/product/index.jhtml?id=3D108290
See these books:
http://www.amazon.com/Out-Gas-End-Age-Oil/dp/0393058573
http://www.amazon.com/Hubberts-Peak-Impending-World-Shortage/dp/06911...
http://www.lastoilshock.com/
...put it all together and you have 'America...a Democratic, Communist
Nation Under God.' as the 'best fit ' equation.
And for dessert...add 'politics as usual'
See:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Who_Killed_the_Electric_Car%3F
And we can see nothing substantive will or can be done in the US to
fix our woes.
BTW, do I like communism?
No, not really, I like things EXACTLY as they are. I like being an
energy ***** and sucking down the crude just as you do. I like running
my dirt bikes, jet skis, RV and driving my car.
But what I like doesn't matter...neither does what you like matter.
What does matter is 'what our country likes' or more appropriately
'needs' in order to survive.
If we look at the root of communism it is that of the commune-ist. The
hippy communes and the Israeli Kibbutz's and the modern day survival
devotees that plan to buy some land and develop a 'survival community'
to live of the land all share in the same commune-ist dream.
But the point is not to persuade you to be a communist, but to foster
a realization that for the US to survive, we must put 'what matters to
our country' on the front burner...and as our country survives...so do
we survive.
Alan Watts used to say, it doesn't matter what you think, it doesn't
matter what you like, it doesn't matter what you hope for...all that
really matters is what IS.
Sure we keep our treasured paper money, our guns, and what have you.
Guns are a populations last line of defense.
Look at Afghanistan...they beat Russia and the US is still having
trouble with 'the people' there....all because of an armed
population.
BTW, whenever I think of the Afghanis I think back to the poem.
"When you're wounded and left on Afghanistan's plains,
And the women come out to cut up what remains,
Jest roll to your rifle and blow out your brains.
And go to your Gawd like a soldier" ~ Kipling
So NEVER, NEVER give up your guns...for when the guns go, so does your
freedom. Guns are the foundation of freedom.
Money??
Well, money will not be worth much anyway. Money is nothing more than
stored energy. But since the crude dried up, the 'real energy' behind
the money has vanished...and so did private industry.
So, what is money good for nowadays...to wipe your *****?
Not really, the government supplied toilet paper works better than
that.
What about the coal mines? All government owned. If you want to eat
you work in the mines or where the gov places you...it is that
simple.
This is how our country can claim to be a 'communist democracy' We are
not a slave driven dictatorship, You still have 'some freedoms.' You
can work or not work as you please. But, don't expect a gov handout if
you do not want to contribute to the countries survival needs....and
as our country survives so do we survive.
Religion? Well, the atheists can still be atheists and the Christians,
Muslims and Jews can still worship as they like.
But the big difference in our government is; instead of the ego based
decisions that politicians and the titans of business get sucked into,
the politicians will put the long term US viability as top priority
over personal profit.
How do we accomplish this? I don't know, since politicians are
normally ego based, lying, power hungry individuals. But this is an
area that has to be perfected the best we can with accepting we deal
with imperfect humans.
If we look at the various powers the government has though executive
orders, we are pretty much there (a Democratic, Communist Nation Under
God.) without much effort.
Here are just a few of them...
EXECUTIVE ORDER 10990 allows the government to take over all modes of
transportation and control of highways and seaports.
EXECUTIVE ORDER 10995 allows the government to seize and control the
communication media.
EXECUTIVE ORDER 10997 allows the government to take over all
electrical power, gas, petroleum, fuels and minerals.
EXECUTIVE ORDER 10998 allows the government to take over all food
resources and farms.
EXECUTIVE ORDER 11000 allows the government to mobilize civilians into
work brigades under government supervision.
EXECUTIVE ORDER 11001 allows the government to take over all health,
education and welfare functions.
EXECUTIVE ORDER 11002 designates the Postmaster General to operate a
national registration of all persons.
EXECUTIVE ORDER 11003 allows the government to take over all airports
and aircraft, including commercial aircraft.
EXECUTIVE ORDER 11004 allows the Housing and Finance Authority to
relocate communities, build new housing with public funds, designate
areas to be abandoned, and establish new locations for populations.
EXECUTIVE ORDER 11005 allows the government to take over railroads,
inland waterways and public storage facilities.
http://sonic.net/sentinel/gvcon5.html
What happened to all our individual freedoms with these executive
orders?
It was lost long ago in the deluded American dream that believes the
individual American can survive on their own. Without a strong
government you guys would be speaking Chinese or Russian. What
happened to the personal property of Iraq when the US took it down?
Ditto for your homes and McMansions if another country decided 'to
move' here.
You think it is political biz as usual in the US in the upcoming
election?
It makes little difference.
The world is in a death spiral and politicians as well as industry are
pretending this problem does not exist. No Politician can fix our
woes. the best we can do is to make the most of our dilemma.
We can only blame ourselves, for it is just how we have built our
world over the years....too many people, living outside of natures
intended balance and not an infinite supply of energy to fuel all our
demands.
So Dem or Rep...any politician in charge had better come to terms with
how things really are and not live in dream land...we are running out
of time as our fossil fuel supplies dwindle.
You know every country will not run out of crude all at once.
Without energy our country is open for takeover ... no jets...no
tanks...no transport on the ground or in the air. Luckily we will
still have nuclear powered submarines and aircraft carriers as long as
the uranium holds out. But the jets on the flattop all use jet fuel.
All the supplies for those subs and carriers petroleum dependent.
Other countries such as Russia that have a good supply of nationally
based crude may not be so kind to ...
read more =C2=BB
.
|
|
|
|
| User: "Uncle Fairy Dust" |
|
| Title: Re: Why the hybrid car racket will fail. |
12 Jan 2008 10:01:58 AM |
|
|
On Jan 12, 3:31 pm, V <vf...@aol.com> wrote:
On Jan 11, 8:51=EF=BF=BDpm, Igor The Terrible
<igor_the_terri...@mad.scientist.com> wrote:
Stagnant wages. =EF=BF=BDIncome gap. =EF=BF=BDWorthless dollar. =EF=BF=
=BDAll the above....take
your pick. =EF=BF=BDHowever, the bottom line is you are looking at a ver=
y thin
market. =EF=BF=BDThe new high mileage hybrids will be well out of the re=
ach of
the Wal-Mart/McDonald plant workers. =EF=BF=BDWhen you consider they wil=
l cost
roughly $9,000.00 more than their gasoline powered counterparts that
they can't even think of owning, where is the market.
Now for those with more dollars and sense, what do you think they are
going to be worth after you have owned them for a few years and the
batteries will need replacing? =EF=BF=BDYour depreciation is going to wi=
pe out
any savings that you thought you might have
realized.
So get used to driving your gas hog--unless, of course, you can build
your own fuel efficient vehicle.
It is an absolute shame when the top 5% won't buy 95% of the goods and
services in their own country.
Let the war among businesses for the fight over market tablescraps
begin. =EF=BF=BD;-)
http://cosmos.bcst.yahoo.com/up/player/popup/?rn=3D3906861&cl=3D5911409&c=
....
Good points.
I looked at an electric MX motorcycle and they wanted $10,000 for it.
A gas powered one of higher quality costs only $5500.
Really they will need plug in hybrid cars to get 125+ MPG just to 'run
in place' as our gas prices will be skyrocketing in the near future
with increasing worldwide fossil fuel demands....40 - 50 MPG will go
nowhere in the upcoming years.
They could use bioethanol, but you drank it all.
Na zdrowie! *****.
.
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| User: "satyr" |
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| Title: OT: Why the hybrid car racket will fail. |
12 Jan 2008 10:41:31 AM |
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On Sat, 12 Jan 2008 07:31:56 -0800 (PST), V <vfr44@aol.com> wrote:
On Jan 11, 8:51?pm, Igor The Terrible
<igor_the_terri...@mad.scientist.com> wrote:
Stagnant wages. ?Income gap. ?Worthless dollar. ?All the above....take
your pick. ?However, the bottom line is you are looking at a very thin
market. ?The new high mileage hybrids will be well out of the reach of
the Wal-Mart/McDonald plant workers. ?When you consider they will cost
roughly $9,000.00 more than their gasoline powered counterparts that
they can't even think of owning, where is the market.
Now for those with more dollars and sense, what do you think they are
going to be worth after you have owned them for a few years and the
batteries will need replacing? ?Your depreciation is going to wipe out
any savings that you thought you might have
realized.
So get used to driving your gas hog--unless, of course, you can build
your own fuel efficient vehicle.
It is an absolute shame when the top 5% won't buy 95% of the goods and
services in their own country.
Let the war among businesses for the fight over market tablescraps
begin. ?;-)
http://cosmos.bcst.yahoo.com/up/player/popup/?rn=3906861&cl=5911409&c...
A few years ago, the Ford Explorer was one of the top-selling vehicles
in the US marketplace. It was the best selling SUV and SUV sales were
skyrocketing.
In 2007, the Toyota Prius outsold the Ford Explorer.
Based on ten years of experience, hybrid battery life is now projected
at 150,000 to 200,000 miles.
List price for an Explorer is $26 - 36K and it gets 15 mpg (V8) to 20
mpg (V6) in the city. Used Explorers are plentiful and cheap.
Prius lists for $21 to 23K and gets 48 mpg in the city. Used Priuses
are hard to find and priced close to list.
--
satyr #1953
Chairman, EAC Church Taxation Subcommittee
Director, Gideon Bible Alternative Fuel Project
Supervisor, EAC Fossil Casting Lab
.
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| User: "Bret Cahill" |
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| Title: Re: OT: Why the hybrid car racket will fail. |
12 Jan 2008 11:38:51 AM |
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|
Sooner or later all vehicles will rely on electric drives. They need
to do _something_ to get electric motors in vehicles even if all it is
is tossing a motor in the back seat.
Bret Cahill
.
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| User: "Bret Cahill" |
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| Title: Re: Why the hybrid car racket will fail. |
12 Jan 2008 10:36:10 AM |
|
|
We have two curves: the exponential increase in fuel costs vs the
asymptotic increase in fuel efficiency.
The most out-of-touch pathetic response yet to fuel costs is GM
spending the next 7 years developing an engine that gets 15% better
fuel economy when the cost of fuel goes up 30% every year.
We need to start electrifying everything now while we still have a
half way functional economy. Everything will have to come off the
grid sooner or later anyway.
Bret Cahill
Stagnant wages. =EF=BF=BDIncome gap. =EF=BF=BDWorthless dollar. =EF=BF=
=BDAll the above....take
your pick. =EF=BF=BDHowever, the bottom line is you are looking at a ver=
y thin
market. =EF=BF=BDThe new high mileage hybrids will be well out of the re=
ach of
the Wal-Mart/McDonald plant workers. =EF=BF=BDWhen you consider they wil=
l cost
roughly $9,000.00 more than their gasoline powered counterparts that
they can't even think of owning, where is the market.
Now for those with more dollars and sense, what do you think they are
going to be worth after you have owned them for a few years and the
batteries will need replacing? =EF=BF=BDYour depreciation is going to wi=
pe out
any savings that you thought you might have
realized.
So get used to driving your gas hog--unless, of course, you can build
your own fuel efficient vehicle.
It is an absolute shame when the top 5% won't buy 95% of the goods and
services in their own country.
Let the war among businesses for the fight over market tablescraps
begin. =EF=BF=BD;-)
http://cosmos.bcst.yahoo.com/up/player/popup/?rn=3D3906861&cl=3D5911409&c=
....
Good points.
I looked at an electric MX motorcycle and they wanted $10,000 for it.
A gas powered one of higher quality costs only $5500.
Really they will need plug in hybrid cars to get 125+ MPG just to 'run
in place' as our gas prices will be skyrocketing in the near future
with increasing worldwide fossil fuel demands....40 - 50 MPG will go
nowhere in the upcoming years.
.
|
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| User: "Denis Loubet" |
|
| Title: Re: Why the hybrid car racket will fail. |
12 Jan 2008 10:17:26 PM |
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|
"Bret Cahill" <BretCahill@aol.com> wrote in message
news:e4b2101f-478c-4363-812c-b3c76026cd8d@y5g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...
We have two curves: the exponential increase in fuel costs vs the
asymptotic increase in fuel efficiency.
The most out-of-touch pathetic response yet to fuel costs is GM
spending the next 7 years developing an engine that gets 15% better
fuel economy when the cost of fuel goes up 30% every year.
We need to start electrifying everything now while we still have a
half way functional economy. Everything will have to come off the
grid sooner or later anyway.
================
What supplies the grid? Coal or Nuclear? Aren't both of those supposed to be
bad?
--
Denis Loubet
dloubet@io.com
http://www.io.com/~dloubet
http://www.ashenempires.com
.
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| User: "jjs" |
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| Title: Re: Why the hybrid car racket will fail. |
13 Jan 2008 09:58:56 PM |
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|
"Denis Loubet" <dloubet@io.com> wrote in message
news:hpednYoIqvhKDRTanZ2dnUVZ_uqvnZ2d@io.com...
We need to start electrifying everything now while we still have a
half way functional economy. Everything will have to come off the
grid sooner or later anyway.
What you need is a rational infrastructure with reasonable public
transportation and people also willing to friggin WALK.
.
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| User: "DK" |
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| Title: Re: Why the hybrid car racket will fail. |
12 Jan 2008 11:13:02 PM |
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|
In article <hpednYoIqvhKDRTanZ2dnUVZ_uqvnZ2d@io.com>, "Denis Loubet" <dloubet@io.com> wrote:
"Bret Cahill" <BretCahill@aol.com> wrote in message
news:e4b2101f-478c-4363-812c-b3c76026cd8d@y5g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...
We have two curves: the exponential increase in fuel costs vs the
asymptotic increase in fuel efficiency.
The most out-of-touch pathetic response yet to fuel costs is GM
spending the next 7 years developing an engine that gets 15% better
fuel economy when the cost of fuel goes up 30% every year.
We need to start electrifying everything now while we still have a
half way functional economy.
Wioth electricity more expensive than oil, that sure sounds like
a great sdolution!
DK
.
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| User: "Virgil" |
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| Title: Re: Why the hybrid car racket will fail. |
12 Jan 2008 11:54:36 PM |
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|
In article <w5hij.161$X14.65@newsfe05.lga>,
(DK) wrote:
In article <hpednYoIqvhKDRTanZ2dnUVZ_uqvnZ2d@io.com>, "Denis Loubet"
<dloubet@io.com> wrote:
"Bret Cahill" <BretCahill@aol.com> wrote in message
news:e4b2101f-478c-4363-812c-b3c76026cd8d@y5g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...
We have two curves: the exponential increase in fuel costs vs the
asymptotic increase in fuel efficiency.
The most out-of-touch pathetic response yet to fuel costs is GM
spending the next 7 years developing an engine that gets 15% better
fuel economy when the cost of fuel goes up 30% every year.
We need to start electrifying everything now while we still have a
half way functional economy.
Wioth electricity more expensive than oil, that sure sounds like
a great sdolution!
But the cost of electrical power from wind and sun is decreasing and
the supply is increasable without immediately compelling limits, in
contrast to oil whose cost is increasing and whose supply is harshly
limited.
.
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| User: "DK" |
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| Title: Re: Why the hybrid car racket will fail. |
13 Jan 2008 12:02:05 AM |
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|
In article <Virgil-8DF832.22543612012008@comcast.dca.giganews.com>, Virgil <Virgil@com.com> wrote:
In article <w5hij.161$X14.65@newsfe05.lga>,
dk@no.email.thankstospam.net (DK) wrote:
In article <hpednYoIqvhKDRTanZ2dnUVZ_uqvnZ2d@io.com>, "Denis Loubet"
<dloubet@io.com> wrote:
"Bret Cahill" <BretCahill@aol.com> wrote in message
news:e4b2101f-478c-4363-812c-b3c76026cd8d@y5g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...
We have two curves: the exponential increase in fuel costs vs the
asymptotic increase in fuel efficiency.
The most out-of-touch pathetic response yet to fuel costs is GM
spending the next 7 years developing an engine that gets 15% better
fuel economy when the cost of fuel goes up 30% every year.
We need to start electrifying everything now while we still have a
half way functional economy.
With electricity more expensive than oil, that sure sounds like
a great solution!
But the cost of electrical power from wind and sun is decreasing
Not nearly to the extent of being able to compete with oil.
Particularly with regard to the quantity.
the supply is increasable without immediately compelling limits,
It's not. As it stands now, even if you cover 50% of the area of
the entire USA with solar panels (prohibitively expensive and
unrealistic proposition), the energy output would not be sufficient
to cover current energy expenditures from oil.
DK
.
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| User: "Orion" |
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| Title: Re: Why the hybrid car racket will fail. |
21 Jan 2008 04:33:13 PM |
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|
Consider this scenario:
1. Invest in solar panels
2. Sell to utility what you are not using
3. Charge your car from the grid
Depending on installation, you could be driving your vehicle for free,
without worrying about the ever increasing cost of fuel or the
uncertainty of its supply.
Even without producing your own energy, the pollution at the power
plants as a whole is far less per Btu produced and far more efficient
than the accumulated effect of all internal combustion engines on the
road today. Why? The plants run at close to their theoretical
efficiency, are heavily regulated and checked for conformance to the
norms. The individual cars are not.
An added benefit is that the costly emission tests would be a thing of
the past along with 90%+ of the maintenance that conventional cars are
subjected to.
Looks like a winner to me.
On Sun, 13 Jan 2008 06:02:05 GMT, (DK)
wrote:
In article <Virgil-8DF832.22543612012008@comcast.dca.giganews.com>, Virgil <Virgil@com.com> wrote:
In article <w5hij.161$X14.65@newsfe05.lga>,
(DK) wrote:
In article <hpednYoIqvhKDRTanZ2dnUVZ_uqvnZ2d@io.com>, "Denis Loubet"
<dloubet@io.com> wrote:
"Bret Cahill" <BretCahill@aol.com> wrote in message
news:e4b2101f-478c-4363-812c-b3c76026cd8d@y5g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...
We have two curves: the exponential increase in fuel costs vs the
asymptotic increase in fuel efficiency.
The most out-of-touch pathetic response yet to fuel costs is GM
spending the next 7 years developing an engine that gets 15% better
fuel economy when the cost of fuel goes up 30% every year.
We need to start electrifying everything now while we still have a
half way functional economy.
With electricity more expensive than oil, that sure sounds like
a great solution!
But the cost of electrical power from wind and sun is decreasing
Not nearly to the extent of being able to compete with oil.
Particularly with regard to the quantity.
the supply is increasable without immediately compelling limits,
It's not. As it stands now, even if you cover 50% of the area of
the entire USA with solar panels (prohibitively expensive and
unrealistic proposition), the energy output would not be sufficient
to cover current energy expenditures from oil.
DK
.
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| User: "phil scott" |
|
| Title: Re: Why the hybrid car racket will fail. |
13 Jan 2008 07:18:02 PM |
|
|
On Jan 12, 10:02=A0pm, (DK) wrote:
In article <Virgil-8DF832.22543612012...@comcast.dca.giganews.com>, Virgil=
<Vir...@com.com> wrote:
In article <w5hij.161$X14...@newsfe05.lga>,
(DK) wrote:
In article <hpednYoIqvhKDRTanZ2dnUVZ_uqvn...@io.com>, "Denis Loubet"
<dlou...@io.com> wrote:
"Bret Cahill" <BretCah...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:e4b2101f-478c-4363-812c-b3c76026cd8d@y5g2000hsf.googlegroups.com.=
...
We have two curves: =A0the exponential increase in fuel costs vs the
asymptotic increase in fuel efficiency.
The most out-of-touch pathetic response yet to fuel costs is GM
spending the next 7 years developing an engine that gets 15% better
fuel economy when the cost of fuel goes up 30% every year.
We need to start electrifying everything now while we still have a
half way functional economy. =A0
With electricity more expensive than oil, that sure sounds like
a great solution!
But the cost of electrical power from wind and sun is decreasing
Not nearly to the extent of being able to compete with oil.
Particularly with regard to the quantity.
the supply is increasable without immediately compelling =A0limits,
It's not. As it stands now, even if you cover 50% of the area of
the entire USA with solar panels (prohibitively expensive and
unrealistic proposition), the energy output would not be sufficient
to cover current energy expenditures from oil.
DK- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
correct, solar is not generally viable for our larger needs....
however half of our power in the US goes to lighting, and the energy
used by lighting can be cut 50% easily by moving to LED's...and thats
happening...this broadens the usefullness of solar/ wind etc. It
will be nuclear however that carrys the vital bulk of the load though.
Phil Scott
.
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| User: "phil scott" |
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| Title: Re: Why the hybrid car racket will fail. |
13 Jan 2008 07:15:59 PM |
|
|
On Jan 12, 9:13=A0pm, (DK) wrote:
In article <hpednYoIqvhKDRTanZ2dnUVZ_uqvn...@io.com>, "Denis Loubet" <dlou=
....@io.com> wrote:
"Bret Cahill" <BretCah...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:e4b2101f-478c-4363-812c-b3c76026cd8d@y5g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...
We have two curves: =A0the exponential increase in fuel costs vs the
asymptotic increase in fuel efficiency.
The most out-of-touch pathetic response yet to fuel costs is GM
spending the next 7 years developing an engine that gets 15% better
fuel economy when the cost of fuel goes up 30% every year.
We need to start electrifying everything now while we still have a
half way functional economy. =A0
Wioth electricity more expensive than oil, that sure sounds like
a great sdolution!
DK
Nuclear power costs 2 cents a KW including costs of decomissioning and
waste disposal etc... Power from oil costs around 10 cents per KW,
(marked up to 15 cents at retail approx)... Hydro Electric is around 4
cents a KW including the dam etc as amortized.
Phil Scott
.
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| User: "zzbunker" |
|
| Title: Re: Why the hybrid car racket will fail. |
14 Jan 2008 02:47:48 AM |
|
|
On Jan 13, 8:15=A0pm, phil scott <p...@philscott.net> wrote:
On Jan 12, 9:13=A0pm, (DK) wrote:
In article <hpednYoIqvhKDRTanZ2dnUVZ_uqvn...@io.com>, "Denis Loubet" <dl=
ou...@io.com> wrote:
"Bret Cahill" <BretCah...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:e4b2101f-478c-4363-812c-b3c76026cd8d@y5g2000hsf.googlegroups.com..=
..
We have two curves: =A0the exponential increase in fuel costs vs the
asymptotic increase in fuel efficiency.
The most out-of-touch pathetic response yet to fuel costs is GM
spending the next 7 years developing an engine that gets 15% better
fuel economy when the cost of fuel goes up 30% every year.
We need to start electrifying everything now while we still have a
half way functional economy. =A0
Wioth electricity more expensive than oil, that sure sounds like
a great sdolution!
DK
Nuclear power costs 2 cents a KW including costs of decomissioning and
waste disposal etc... =A0 Power from oil costs around 10 cents per KW,
(marked up to 15 cents at retail approx)... Hydro Electric is around 4
cents a KW including the dam etc as amortized.
Well, for the nuke morons, we;re sorry to tell you that
the energy market just doesn't work that way.
Since you make extremely low cost computer, robot,
laser, maser, fiber optic, solar cell, and satelite energy
from coal. Rather than morons like nukes,
Phil Scott- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
.
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| User: "zzbunker" |
|
| Title: Re: Why the hybrid car racket will fail. |
14 Jan 2008 06:02:04 AM |
|
|
On Jan 14, 3:47=A0am, zzbunker <zzbun...@netscape.net> wrote:
On Jan 13, 8:15=A0pm, phil scott <p...@philscott.net> wrote:
On Jan 12, 9:13=A0pm, (DK) wrote:
In article <hpednYoIqvhKDRTanZ2dnUVZ_uqvn...@io.com>, "Denis Loubet" <=
dlou...@io.com> wrote:
"Bret Cahill" <BretCah...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:e4b2101f-478c-4363-812c-b3c76026cd8d@y5g2000hsf.googlegroups.com=
....
We have two curves: =A0the exponential increase in fuel costs vs the
asymptotic increase in fuel efficiency.
The most out-of-touch pathetic response yet to fuel costs is GM
spending the next 7 years developing an engine that gets 15% better
fuel economy when the cost of fuel goes up 30% every year.
We need to start electrifying everything now while we still have a
half way functional economy. =A0
Wioth electricity more expensive than oil, that sure sounds like
a great sdolution!
DK
Nuclear power costs 2 cents a KW including costs of decomissioning and
waste disposal etc... =A0 Power from oil costs around 10 cents per KW,
(marked up to 15 cents at retail approx)... Hydro Electric is around 4
cents a KW including the dam etc as amortized.
=A0 Well, for the nuke morons, we;re sorry to tell you that
=A0 the energy market just doesn't work that way.
=A0 Since you make extremely low cost computer, robot,
=A0 laser, maser, fiber optic, solar cell, and satelite energy
=A0 from coal. Rather than morons like nukes,
Or for usenet it's still the same as it's been for the last 50
years,
as far is energy is concerned.
Moron nano-wanks rather than science.
Phil Scott- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
.
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| User: "Olrik" |
|
| Title: Re: Why the hybrid car racket will fail. |
12 Jan 2008 11:05:32 PM |
|
|
On Jan 12, 11:17 pm, "Denis Loubet" <dlou...@io.com> wrote:
"Bret Cahill" <BretCah...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:e4b2101f-478c-4363-812c-b3c76026cd8d@y5g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...
We have two curves: the exponential increase in fuel costs vs the
asymptotic increase in fuel efficiency.
The most out-of-touch pathetic response yet to fuel costs is GM
spending the next 7 years developing an engine that gets 15% better
fuel economy when the cost of fuel goes up 30% every year.
We need to start electrifying everything now while we still have a
half way functional economy. Everything will have to come off the
grid sooner or later anyway.
================
What supplies the grid? Coal or Nuclear? Aren't both of those supposed to be
bad?
Coal is bad, but nuclear is quite safe.
As for the grid, anything renewable can feed it : hydro, wind, solar,
waves, etc.
One day, everything on wheels will be powered by batteries. We'll keep
petrol for some plastics and other goods, and airplanes.
Olrik
--
Denis Loubet
dlou...@io.comhttp://www.io.com/~dloubethttp://www.ashenempires.com
.
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| User: "Denis Loubet" |
|
| Title: Re: Why the hybrid car racket will fail. |
13 Jan 2008 11:51:12 AM |
|
|
"Olrik" <olrik666@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:2a81bbd2-a666-4537-90d8-c0a5beb7c35c@c4g2000hsg.googlegroups.com...
On Jan 12, 11:17 pm, "Denis Loubet" <dlou...@io.com> wrote:
"Bret Cahill" <BretCah...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:e4b2101f-478c-4363-812c-b3c76026cd8d@y5g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...
We have two curves: the exponential increase in fuel costs vs the
asymptotic increase in fuel efficiency.
The most out-of-touch pathetic response yet to fuel costs is GM
spending the next 7 years developing an engine that gets 15% better
fuel economy when the cost of fuel goes up 30% every year.
We need to start electrifying everything now while we still have a
half way functional economy. Everything will have to come off the
grid sooner or later anyway.
================
What supplies the grid? Coal or Nuclear? Aren't both of those supposed to
be
bad?
Coal is bad, but nuclear is quite safe.
Whoa! That's a turnaround! I thought nuclear was supposed to be the devil's
power source.
Have we found a way to safely eliminate the waste?
As for the grid, anything renewable can feed it : hydro, wind, solar,
waves, etc.
I suspect that won't be enough.
One day, everything on wheels will be powered by batteries. We'll keep
petrol for some plastics and other goods, and airplanes.
Batteries don't pop out of thin air, nor does the energy they contain. You
don't get something for nothing. You're paying for the energy you get from
the batteries in whatever waste product is produced by whatever power source
charges the batteries.
I don't see a solution to this problem. Fusion is proving to be an elusive
target, and would generate its own variety of radioactive waste. I've heard
that the renewable sources of power are orders of magnitude insufficent to
meet our needs. I have no idea what we're going to do.
If only reality were like Star Trek, we could reverse the transducer coil
and POOF! Free power!
--
Denis Loubet
dloubet@io.com
http//www.io.com/~dloubet
--
Denis Loubet
dloubet@io.com
http//www.io.com/~dloubet
.
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| User: "Bret Cahill" |
|
| Title: Re: Why the hybrid car racket will fail. |
13 Jan 2008 01:24:28 PM |
|
|
We have two curves: =EF=BF=BDthe exponential increase in fuel costs vs =
the
asymptotic increase in fuel efficiency.
The most out-of-touch pathetic response yet to fuel costs is GM
spending the next 7 years developing an engine that gets 15% better
fuel economy when the cost of fuel goes up 30% every year.
We need to start electrifying everything now while we still have a
half way functional economy. =EF=BF=BDEverything will have to come off =
the
grid sooner or later anyway.
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
What supplies the grid? Coal or Nuclear? Aren't both of those supposed =
to
be
bad?
Coal is bad, but nuclear is quite safe.
Whoa! That's a turnaround! I thought nuclear was supposed to be the devil'=
s
power source.
Have we found a way to safely eliminate the waste?
As for the grid, anything renewable can feed it : hydro, wind, solar,
waves, etc.
I suspect that won't be enough.
We have no choice but to give it the ol' college try.
Bret Cahill
.
|
|
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| User: "Denis Loubet" |
|
| Title: Re: Why the hybrid car racket will fail. |
13 Jan 2008 05:21:31 PM |
|
|
"Bret Cahill" <BretCahill@aol.com> wrote in message
news:3a47be93-cb5e-4405-bb47-20748bb18b88@f3g2000hsg.googlegroups.com...
We have two curves: ?the exponential increase in fuel costs vs the
asymptotic increase in fuel efficiency.
The most out-of-touch pathetic response yet to fuel costs is GM
spending the next 7 years developing an engine that gets 15% better
fuel economy when the cost of fuel goes up 30% every year.
We need to start electrifying everything now while we still have a
half way functional economy. ?Everything will have to come off the
grid sooner or later anyway.
================
What supplies the grid? Coal or Nuclear? Aren't both of those supposed
to
be
bad?
Coal is bad, but nuclear is quite safe.
Whoa! That's a turnaround! I thought nuclear was supposed to be the
devil's
power source.
Have we found a way to safely eliminate the waste?
As for the grid, anything renewable can feed it : hydro, wind, solar,
waves, etc.
I suspect that won't be enough.
We have no choice but to give it the ol' college try.
I can't disagree with you there!
--
Denis Loubet
dloubet@io.com
http//www.io.com/~dloubet
.
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| User: "Douglas Berry" |
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| Title: Re: Why the hybrid car racket will fail. |
13 Jan 2008 07:33:37 PM |
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On Sun, 13 Jan 2008 11:51:12 -0600 "Denis Loubet" <dloubet@io.com>
carved the following into the hard stone of alt.atheism
"Olrik" <olrik666@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:2a81bbd2-a666-4537-90d8-c0a5beb7c35c@c4g2000hsg.googlegroups.com...
Coal is bad, but nuclear is quite safe.
Whoa! That's a turnaround! I thought nuclear was supposed to be the devil's
power source.
According to hysterics who can't tell the difference between a nuclear
reactor and a nuclear bomb. Or think that all reactors are the same
design as Chernobyl.
Have we found a way to safely eliminate the waste?
Nope. But that problem is greatly overstated. You can in fact bury the
waste in deep mines and it won't escape.
Hell, even if you do reach critical mass in a disposal site, know what
happens? Heat. That's it. This has happened in nature. Google for
"natural nuclear fission reactor"
As for the grid, anything renewable can feed it : hydro, wind, solar,
waves, etc.
I suspect that won't be enough.
No, but it can take a great deal of the peak load. Here in the San
francisco area, were building more solar homes, use wind power from
the Altamont Pass windfarms, and will be building tidal generators
outside the Golden Gate in the next decade.
One day, everything on wheels will be powered by batteries. We'll keep
petrol for some plastics and other goods, and airplanes.
Batteries don't pop out of thin air, nor does the energy they contain. You
don't get something for nothing. You're paying for the energy you get from
the batteries in whatever waste product is produced by whatever power source
charges the batteries.
True, but a single larger generator is far more efficient than a bunch
of smaller ones; especially in terms of waste products. So is we have
a smaller number of large plants producing energy for these batteries,
it's a net gain.
I don't see a solution to this problem. Fusion is proving to be an elusive
target, and would generate its own variety of radioactive waste. I've heard
that the renewable sources of power are orders of magnitude insufficent to
meet our needs. I have no idea what we're going to do.
Out of curiosity, what is the radioactive waste product of
Deuterium-Tritium fusion? Other than the possibility of the reactor
walls absorbing neutrons and becoming slightly radioactive over a
period of decades, the fuel is just isotopes of hydrogen.
If only reality were like Star Trek, we could reverse the transducer coil
and POOF! Free power!
Star Trek used matter-antimatter power plants. You really don't want a
failure of your fuel containment system there!
--
Douglas Berry Do the OBVIOUS thing to send e-mail
Atheist #2147, Atheist Vet #5
Jason Gastrich is praying for me on 8 January 2011
"The most beautiful thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the
source of all true art and all science. He to whom this emotion is a
stranger, who can no longer pause to wonder and stand rapt in awe, is as
good as dead: his eyes are closed." - Albert Einstein
.
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| User: "Denis Loubet" |
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| Title: Re: Why the hybrid car racket will fail. |
14 Jan 2008 12:01:04 AM |
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"Douglas Berry" <penguin_boy@mindOBVIOUSspring.com> wrote in message
news:cuelo3l09gcsahb7vdnutef3rkkkpv0vh5@4ax.com...
On Sun, 13 Jan 2008 11:51:12 -0600 "Denis Loubet" <dloubet@io.com>
carved the following into the hard stone of alt.atheism
"Olrik" <olrik666@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:2a81bbd2-a666-4537-90d8-c0a5beb7c35c@c4g2000hsg.googlegroups.com...
Coal is bad, but nuclear is quite safe.
Whoa! That's a turnaround! I thought nuclear was supposed to be the
devil's
power source.
According to hysterics who can't tell the difference between a nuclear
reactor and a nuclear bomb. Or think that all reactors are the same
design as Chernobyl.
Shudder!
Have we found a way to safely eliminate the waste?
Nope. But that problem is greatly overstated. You can in fact bury the
waste in deep mines and it won't escape.
I hope that's the case. I keep hearing that it's not as easy as that, and
there exists the possiblity of it leaching out.
Hell, even if you do reach critical mass in a disposal site, know what
happens? Heat. That's it. This has happened in nature. Google for
"natural nuclear fission reactor"
Heh! I would hope we can avoid being stupid enough to court the premise of
Space:1999!
As for the grid, anything renewable can feed it : hydro, wind, solar,
waves, etc.
I suspect that won't be enough.
No, but it can take a great deal of the peak load. Here in the San
francisco area, were building more solar homes, use wind power from
the Altamont Pass windfarms, and will be building tidal generators
outside the Golden Gate in the next decade.
Are the projections good?
One day, everything on wheels will be powered by batteries. We'll keep
petrol for some plastics and other goods, and airplanes.
Batteries don't pop out of thin air, nor does the energy they contain. You
don't get something for nothing. You're paying for the energy you get from
the batteries in whatever waste product is produced by whatever power
source
charges the batteries.
True, but a single larger generator is far more efficient than a bunch
of smaller ones; especially in terms of waste products. So is we have
a smaller number of large plants producing energy for these batteries,
it's a net gain.
I keep hearing that a big generator is more efficient than a bunch of
smaller ones, but it's gonna have to be pretty damn efficent to overcome the
losses due to transmission and battery efficiency. I'll assume that
someone's done the math... ;-)
I don't see a solution to this problem. Fusion is proving to be an elusive
target, and would generate its own variety of radioactive waste. I've
heard
that the renewable sources of power are orders of magnitude insufficent to
meet our needs. I have no idea what we're going to do.
Out of curiosity, what is the radioactive waste product of
Deuterium-Tritium fusion? Other than the possibility of the reactor
walls absorbing neutrons and becoming slightly radioactive over a
period of decades, the fuel is just isotopes of hydrogen.
Yeah, I was talking about the containment walls. If we're talking a time
frame of decades, then I guess it's feasable.
If only reality were like Star Trek, we could reverse the transducer coil
and POOF! Free power!
Star Trek used matter-antimatter power plants. You really don't want a
failure of your fuel containment system there!
You don't want Homer Simpson working at that power plant, or the last thing
the planet hears is "D'OH!"
--
Denis Loubet
dloubet@io.com
http://www.io.com/~dloubet
http://www.ashenempires.com
.
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| User: "Douglas Berry" |
|
| Title: Re: Why the hybrid car racket will fail. |
14 Jan 2008 06:27:29 PM |
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|
On Mon, 14 Jan 2008 00:01:04 -0600 "Denis Loubet" <dloubet@io.com>
carved the following into the hard stone of alt.atheism
"Douglas Berry" <penguin_boy@mindOBVIOUSspring.com> wrote in message
news:cuelo3l09gcsahb7vdnutef3rkkkpv0vh5@4ax.com...
According to hysterics who can't tell the difference between a nuclear
reactor and a nuclear bomb. Or think that all reactors are the same
design as Chernobyl.
Shudder!
I've heard both views put forth by very earnest people.
Nope. But that problem is greatly overstated. You can in fact bury the
waste in deep mines and it won't escape.
I hope that's the case. I keep hearing that it's not as easy as that, and
there exists the possiblity of it leaching out.
There's always a possibility, but you design to limit that
possibility.
I think one of my favorite suggestions was to put the waste in massive
buildings covered with deep carvings in multiple languages and
pictograms showing that what was inside was immensely dangerous. The
quick reply to that one was "yeah, that worked so well in keeping
Egyptian tombs sealed."
Hell, even if you do reach critical mass in a disposal site, know what
happens? Heat. That's it. This has happened in nature. Google for
"natural nuclear fission reactor"
Heh! I would hope we can avoid being stupid enough to court the premise of
Space:1999!
Well, that requires a crashing Eagle, so we're safe. :) But again,
I've heard loonies claim that a waste disposal site would suddenly go
super-critical and explode. Never mind that all the designated
disposal sites are fare deeper than the holes we dug for nuclear
weapon testing in the Nevada desert..
No, but it can take a great deal of the peak load. Here in the San
Francisco area, we're building more solar homes, using wind power from
the Altamont Pass windfarms, and will be building tidal generators
outside the Golden Gate in the next decade.
Are the projections good?
So far things look promising.
http://www.pge.com/about_us/environment/features/tidal_power/
The big thing is going to be the solar building initiative. Getting
residential and commercial customers to ease off the grid during the
summer would go a long way to cutting our need for extra generators.
True, but a single larger generator is far more efficient than a bunch
of smaller ones; especially in terms of waste products. So is we have
a smaller number of large plants producing energy for these batteries,
it's a net gain.
I keep hearing that a big generator is more efficient than a bunch of
smaller ones, but it's gonna have to be pretty damn efficent to overcome the
losses due to transmission and battery efficiency. I'll assume that
someone's done the math... ;-)
True enough, but link to other sources (like your home solar panels
providing help) and the costs get manageable.
Out of curiosity, what is the radioactive waste product of
Deuterium-Tritium fusion? Other than the possibility of the reactor
walls absorbing neutrons and becoming slightly radioactive over a
period of decades, the fuel is just isotopes of hydrogen.
Yeah, I was talking about the containment walls. If we're talking a time
frame of decades, then I guess it's feasable.
We are, and the bigger problem is the walls getting brittle from the
bombardment. Most projections show a De-Tr reactor wall needing
replacement due to structural issues long before it becomes more
radioactive than a radium watch dial.
But until we can start and control a fusion reaction that puts out
more power than it takes to sustain, fusion is not on the table.
Interestingly, there's a more efficient form of fusion, 3HE fusion,
that would be easier to handle and wouldn't have the problem of stray
neutrons looking for love in all the wrong places.
http://www.asi.org/adb/02/09/he3-intro.html
The problem? Helium-3 is vanishingly rare on Earth. We could mine the
moon for it, or goo to the gas giants and scoop it from their
atmospheres.
--
Douglas Berry Do the OBVIOUS thing to send e-mail
Atheist #2147, Atheist Vet #5
Jason Gastrich is praying for me on 8 January 2011
"The most beautiful thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the
source of all true art and all science. He to whom this emotion is a
stranger, who can no longer pause to wonder and stand rapt in awe, is as
good as dead: his eyes are closed." - Albert Einstein
.
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| User: "Denis Loubet" |
|
| Title: Re: Why the hybrid car racket will fail. |
15 Jan 2008 12:11:52 AM |
|
|
"Douglas Berry" <penguin_boy@mindOBVIOUSspring.com> wrote in message
news:cjuno3ta0jcb0asmbg3gopnqm4qtaqpcbh@4ax.com...
On Mon, 14 Jan 2008 00:01:04 -0600 "Denis Loubet" <dloubet@io.com>
carved the following into the hard stone of alt.atheism
"Douglas Berry" <penguin_boy@mindOBVIOUSspring.com> wrote in message
news:cuelo3l09gcsahb7vdnutef3rkkkpv0vh5@4ax.com...
According to hysterics who can't tell the difference between a nuclear
reactor and a nuclear bomb. Or think that all reactors are the same
design as Chernobyl.
Shudder!
I've heard both views put forth by very earnest people.
Me too.
Nope. But that problem is greatly overstated. You can in fact bury the
waste in deep mines and it won't escape.
I hope that's the case. I keep hearing that it's not as easy as that, and
there exists the possiblity of it leaching out.
There's always a possibility, but you design to limit that
possibility.
I think one of my favorite suggestions was to put the waste in massive
buildings covered with deep carvings in multiple languages and
pictograms showing that what was inside was immensely dangerous. The
quick reply to that one was "yeah, that worked so well in keeping
Egyptian tombs sealed."
But you have to admit, huge modern pyramids, with a real curse inside, would
be totally cool!
Hell, even if you do reach critical mass in a disposal site, know what
happens? Heat. That's it. This has happened in nature. Google for
"natural nuclear fission reactor"
Heh! I would hope we can avoid being stupid enough to court the premise of
Space:1999!
Well, that requires a crashing Eagle, so we're safe. :) But again,
I've heard loonies claim that a waste disposal site would suddenly go
super-critical and explode. Never mind that all the designated
disposal sites are fare deeper than the holes we dug for nuclear
weapon testing in the Nevada desert..
I figured they had some scientists thinking about it. ;-)
No, but it can take a great deal of the peak load. Here in the San
Francisco area, we're building more solar homes, using wind power from
the Altamont Pass windfarms, and will be building tidal generators
outside the Golden Gate in the next decade.
Are the projections good?
So far things look promising.
http://www.pge.com/about_us/environment/features/tidal_power/
The big thing is going to be the solar building initiative. Getting
residential and commercial customers to ease off the grid during the
summer would go a long way to cutting our need for extra generators.
Neato!
True, but a single larger generator is far more efficient than a bunch
of smaller ones; especially in terms of waste products. So is we have
a smaller number of large plants producing energy for these batteries,
it's a net gain.
I keep hearing that a big generator is more efficient than a bunch of
smaller ones, but it's gonna have to be pretty damn efficent to overcome
the
losses due to transmission and battery efficiency. I'll assume that
someone's done the math... ;-)
True enough, but link to other sources (like your home solar panels
providing help) and the costs get manageable.
Hopefully, solar cells will keep getting more and more efficient.
Out of curiosity, what is the radioactive waste product of
Deuterium-Tritium fusion? Other than the possibility of the reactor
walls absorbing neutrons and becoming slightly radioactive over a
period of decades, the fuel is just isotopes of hydrogen.
Yeah, I was talking about the containment walls. If we're talking a time
frame of decades, then I guess it's feasable.
We are, and the bigger problem is the walls getting brittle from the
bombardment.
Ha! I read that too!
Most projections show a De-Tr reactor wall needing
replacement due to structural issues long before it becomes more
radioactive than a radium watch dial.
Ah, that I didn't catch. Cool.
But until we can start and control a fusion reaction that puts out
more power than it takes to sustain, fusion is not on the table.
Interestingly, there's a more efficient form of fusion, 3HE fusion,
that would be easier to handle and wouldn't have the problem of stray
neutrons looking for love in all the wrong places.
http://www.asi.org/adb/02/09/he3-intro.html
The problem? Helium-3 is vanishingly rare on Earth. We could mine the
moon for it, or goo to the gas giants and scoop it from their
atmospheres.
Then we'll be dependant on the Jovians for our power!
--
Denis Loubet
dloubet@io.com
http://www.io.com/~dloubet
http://www.ashenempires.com
.
|
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| User: "Father Haskell" |
|
| Title: Re: Why the hybrid car racket will fail. |
15 Jan 2008 12:18:26 AM |
|
|
On Jan 15, 1:11 am, "Denis Loubet" <dlou...@io.com> wrote:
"Douglas Berry" <penguin_...@mindOBVIOUSspring.com> wrote in message
news:cjuno3ta0jcb0asmbg3gopnqm4qtaqpcbh@4ax.com...
On Mon, 14 Jan 2008 00:01:04 -0600 "Denis Loubet" <dlou...@io.com>
carved the following into the hard stone of alt.atheism
"Douglas Berry" <penguin_...@mindOBVIOUSspring.com> wrote in message
news:cuelo3l09gcsahb7vdnutef3rkkkpv0vh5@4ax.com...
According to hysterics who can't tell the difference between a nuclear
reactor and a nuclear bomb. Or think that all reactors are the same
design as Chernobyl.
Shudder!
I've heard both views put forth by very earnest people.
Me too.
Nope. But that problem is greatly overstated. You can in fact bury the
waste in deep mines and it won't escape.
I hope that's the case. I keep hearing that it's not as easy as that, and
there exists the possiblity of it leaching out.
There's always a possibility, but you design to limit that
possibility.
I think one of my favorite suggestions was to put the waste in massive
buildings covered with deep carvings in multiple languages and
pictograms showing that what was inside was immensely dangerous. The
quick reply to that one was "yeah, that worked so well in keeping
Egyptian tombs sealed."
But you have to admit, huge modern pyramids, with a real curse inside, would
be totally cool!
Hell, even if you do reach critical mass in a disposal site, know what
happens? Heat. That's it. This has happened in nature. Google for
"natural nuclear fission reactor"
Heh! I would hope we can avoid being stupid enough to court the premise of
Space:1999!
Well, that requires a crashing Eagle, so we're safe. :) But again,
I've heard loonies claim that a waste disposal site would suddenly go
super-critical and explode. Never mind that all the designated
disposal sites are fare deeper than the holes we dug for nuclear
weapon testing in the Nevada desert..
I figured they had some scientists thinking about it. ;-)
No, but it can take a great deal of the peak load. Here in the San
Francisco area, we're building more solar homes, using wind power from
the Altamont Pass windfarms, and will be building tidal generators
outside the Golden Gate in the next decade.
Are the projections good?
So far things look promising.
http://www.pge.com/about_us/environment/features/tidal_power/
The big thing is going to be the solar building initiative. Getting
residential and commercial customers to ease off the grid during the
summer would go a long way to cutting our need for extra generators.
Neato!
True, but a single larger generator is far more efficient than a bunch
of smaller ones; especially in terms of waste products. So is we have
a smaller number of large plants producing energy for these batteries,
it's a net gain.
I keep hearing that a big generator is more efficient than a bunch of
smaller ones, but it's gonna have to be pretty damn efficent to overcome
the
losses due to transmission and battery efficiency. I'll assume that
someone's done the math... ;-)
True enough, but link to other sources (like your home solar panels
providing help) and the costs get manageable.
Hopefully, solar cells will keep getting more and more efficient.
Out of curiosity, what is the radioactive waste product of
Deuterium-Tritium fusion? Other than the possibility of the reactor
walls absorbing neutrons and becoming slightly radioactive over a
period of decades, the fuel is just isotopes of hydrogen.
Yeah, I was talking about the containment walls. If we're talking a time
frame of decades, then I guess it's feasable.
We are, and the bigger problem is the walls getting brittle from the
bombardment.
Ha! I read that too!
Most projections show a De-Tr reactor wall needing
replacement due to structural issues long before it becomes more
radioactive than a radium watch dial.
Ah, that I didn't catch. Cool.
But until we can start and control a fusion reaction that puts out
more power than it takes to sustain, fusion is not on the table.
Interestingly, there's a more efficient form of fusion, 3HE fusion,
that would be easier to handle and wouldn't have the problem of stray
neutrons looking for love in all the wrong places.
http://www.asi.org/adb/02/09/he3-intro.html
The problem? Helium-3 is vanishingly rare on Earth. We could mine the
moon for it, or goo to the gas giants and scoop it from their
atmospheres.
Then we'll be dependant on the Jovians for our power!
Job title of the future: giant Jovian gas bag floater
wrangler. Yipee Ti-Yi-Yo, Li'l doggie.
.
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| User: "Gogarty" |
|
| Title: Re: Why the hybrid car racket will fail. |
15 Jan 2008 06:06:28 AM |
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Waste stays hot and dangerous for millenia, far longer than any human state of
government has ever lived or will ever live. Christianity and all the otherv
starnge religions presenntly make life miserable for most people on Earth will
disappear or morph into something else. But while all this is going on, that
waste is still there and still dangerous, with no doubt the pilke getting
bigger. Who will guard it? Will a special heriditary priesthood arise to
ensure the safe management of all that waste across future millenia?
.
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