Pastor Dave <nospam*-*pastordave38@yahoo.com> wrote in
news:5hh270d929ckavqmgr29ql2fgjbvp7ro0o@4ax.com:

On Sun, 04 Apr 2004 14:55:52 GMT, Fred Stone
<fstone69@earthling.com> spake thusly:

Pastor Dave <nospam*-*pastordave38@yahoo.com> wrote in
news:eh7070pg0poo8ii2keigdduv4k9p50ar2i@4ax.com:

On Sat, 03 Apr 2004 19:33:16 GMT, Fred Stone
<fstone69@earthling.com> spake thusly:

Pastor Dave <nospam*-*pastordave38@yahoo.com> wrote in
news:ii5t60hrqsbku4gd60h3838qv46ehq16tb@4ax.com:

On Fri, 02 Apr 2004 21:21:48 GMT, "Weatherwax"
<weatherwax@worldnet.net> spake thusly:

"Libertarius" <Libertarius@Nothing_But_The.Truth> wrote

Weatherwax wrote:

It is unfortunate that the Bacchanalia, which celebrated
the god Dionysis, degenerated into the drunken orgies of
Rome. Some scholars believe that it is one such
celebration which Paul describes in Romans 1:18-32.
The language in that passage has often bothered me
because Paul is not talking about the sinners as people
who never knew God. Paul is talking about them as
people who abandoned God:

Romans 1:21 For although they knew God,
they did not glorify him as God or give him thanks,
but they became futile in their thoughts and their
senseless hearts were darkened. 1:22 Although they
claimed to be wise, they became fools 1:23 and
exchanged the glory of the incorruptible God in
likeness of an image of corruptible man. or birds
or four-footed animals or reptiles.

Paul was obviously familiar with worship of Dionysus and
borrowed from the cult. However, upon entering Rome,
he saw its corrupted form. He saw people take a religion
which was close to Christianity, and debase it. Thus he
criticized them for abandoning God:

===>Note that his claim is that they abandoned
THEOS, whom he calls the FATHER (THEOS PATER
-- JUPITER?) not YHWH!
Also, that his CHRISTOS was the KYRIOS, a term used,
among others, designating Pagan deities:

Dionysus, the son of Jupiter (Zeus) and a mortal woman (Semele),
is the prototype for Jesus Christ. This includes the
Indo-European motif of the suffering god, who becomes immortal
after his death.

It was not a large step from the Greek mystery religions to
Christianity.

The Greek mystery religions copied items from
Christianity.

The Greek mystery religions existed *before* Christianity, thus the
copying was the other way round.

Irrelevant when they existed. When they came into
contact with Christianity, they changed. Mithra is a
perfect example. It did not exist in the form that you
atheists like to quote it in, at the time Christianity
was born in Jerusalem.

The understanding we have of the mystery religions is based upon
documentation that existed *before* Christianity.

Not if you claim that Christianity copied from it.

http://home.earthlink.net/~pgwhacker/ChristianOrigins/

It was the other way around and no one has been able to
prove their claims.

Prove *your* claim.

Pastor Dave wrote:

The Greek mystery religions existed *before* Christianity, thus the
copying was the other way round.

Irrelevant when they existed. When they came into
contact with Christianity, they changed. Mithra is a
perfect example. It did not exist in the form that you
atheists like to quote it in, at the time Christianity
was born in Jerusalem.

The understanding we have of the mystery religions is based upon
documentation that existed *before* Christianity.

Not if you claim that Christianity copied from it. It
was the other way around and no one has been able to
prove their claims.

"When we say that the Word, who is the first-birth of God, was
produced without sexual union, and that He, Jesus Christ, our
Teacher, was crucified and died, and rose again, and
ascended into heaven, we propound nothing different
from what you believe regarding those whom you esteem sons
of Jupiter." [Justin Martyr, First Apology, 21]

NOTE: "NOTHING DIFFERENT"! -- L.

Early 'Church fathers,' such as Justin Martyr, Tertullian, and Irenaeus,
were already disturbed by the facts

and resorted to the desperate claim
that these similarities were the result of 'diabolical mimicry.'

Using one of the most absurd arguments ever advanced, they accused
the Devil of 'plagiarism by anticipation,' of deviously copying the true
story of Jesus before it had actually happened in an attempt to mislead
the gullible!

Pastor Dave wrote:

On Sun, 04 Apr 2004 14:55:52 GMT, Fred Stone
<fstone69@earthling.com> spake thusly:

Pastor Dave <nospam*-*pastordave38@yahoo.com> wrote in
news:eh7070pg0poo8ii2keigdduv4k9p50ar2i@4ax.com:

On Sat, 03 Apr 2004 19:33:16 GMT, Fred Stone
<fstone69@earthling.com> spake thusly:

Pastor Dave <nospam*-*pastordave38@yahoo.com> wrote in
news:ii5t60hrqsbku4gd60h3838qv46ehq16tb@4ax.com:

On Fri, 02 Apr 2004 21:21:48 GMT, "Weatherwax"
<weatherwax@worldnet.net> spake thusly:

"Libertarius" <Libertarius@Nothing_But_The.Truth> wrote

Weatherwax wrote:

It is unfortunate that the Bacchanalia, which celebrated
the god Dionysis, degenerated into the drunken orgies of
Rome. Some scholars believe that it is one such
celebration which Paul describes in Romans 1:18-32.
The language in that passage has often bothered me
because Paul is not talking about the sinners as people
who never knew God. Paul is talking about them as
people who abandoned God:

Romans 1:21 For although they knew God,
they did not glorify him as God or give him thanks,
but they became futile in their thoughts and their
senseless hearts were darkened. 1:22 Although they
claimed to be wise, they became fools 1:23 and
exchanged the glory of the incorruptible God in
likeness of an image of corruptible man. or birds
or four-footed animals or reptiles.

Paul was obviously familiar with worship of Dionysus and
borrowed from the cult. However, upon entering Rome,
he saw its corrupted form. He saw people take a religion
which was close to Christianity, and debase it. Thus he
criticized them for abandoning God:

===>Note that his claim is that they abandoned
THEOS, whom he calls the FATHER (THEOS PATER
-- JUPITER?) not YHWH!
Also, that his CHRISTOS was the KYRIOS, a term used,
among others, designating Pagan deities:

Dionysus, the son of Jupiter (Zeus) and a mortal woman (Semele),
is the prototype for Jesus Christ. This includes the
Indo-European motif of the suffering god, who becomes immortal
after his death.

It was not a large step from the Greek mystery religions to
Christianity.

The Greek mystery religions copied items from
Christianity.

The Greek mystery religions existed *before* Christianity, thus the
copying was the other way round.

Irrelevant when they existed. When they came into
contact with Christianity, they changed. Mithra is a
perfect example. It did not exist in the form that you
atheists like to quote it in, at the time Christianity
was born in Jerusalem.

The understanding we have of the mystery religions is based upon
documentation that existed *before* Christianity.

Not if you claim that Christianity copied from it. It
was the other way around and no one has been able to
prove their claims.

"When we say that the Word, who is the first-birth of God, was
produced without sexual union, and that He, Jesus Christ, our
Teacher, was crucified and died, and rose again, and
ascended into heaven, we propound nothing different
from what you believe regarding those whom you esteem sons
of Jupiter." [Justin Martyr, First Apology, 21]

NOTE: "NOTHING DIFFERENT"! -- L.

Early 'Church fathers,' such as Justin Martyr, Tertullian, and Irenaeus,
were already disturbed by the facts and resorted to the desperate claim
that these similarities were the result of 'diabolical mimicry.'
Using one of the most absurd arguments ever advanced, they accused
the Devil of 'plagiarism by anticipation,' of deviously copying the true
story of Jesus before it had actually happened in an attempt to mislead
the gullible!

They did NOT claim that the Pagan practices and ideas came later,
but that they were copied from the Christian religion
BEFORE CHRISTIANITY EXISTED(!)
Some Greeks did the same before,
contending that the Egyptians stole
their gods, though of course those gods were
worshipped in Egypt long before
the Greeks existed!
However, the Greeks did not have the "Devil" to blame it on!

"The way the early church fathers defended against the mystery religions
showed that they knew
these pagan myths antedated the Christian ones. Justin Martyr (c160-165)
claimed that the devil
true faith. He claimed the myth of the virgin birth of Perseus, an ancient
Greek legend that preceded
Christianity, was pre-copied by the "deceiving serpent" (Dialogue with
Trypho: 70). Similarly he
asserted that the cultic rites of Mithraism had a diabolical origin
(Apology 1:66). Tertulian
(c160-c225) made the same claim: that it was the devil that provided this
"mimicry". That the church
fathers would resort to the absurd theory of pre-mimicry (i.e. the copy
coming before the original)
means that they could not make the claim that the pagan mystery religions
copied from Christianity!
Why couldn't they? Because it must have been well known to them and to
their audience which
came first!" (FROM: "The Pagan Origins of the Resurrection Myth" --
http://www.geocities.com/paulntobin/paganrising.html

Libertarius
=============

Libertarius <Libertarius@Nothing_But_The.Truth> wrote in
news:406F3DA2.E3454324@Nothing_But_The.Truth:

Fred Stone wrote:

"Weatherwax" <weatherwax@worldnet.net> wrote in news:8HFbc.17088
$vo5.515836@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net:

"Libertarius" <Libertarius@Nothing_But_The.Truth> wrote in
message news:406F1089.6FB19C12@Nothing_But_The.Truth...

Pastor Dave wrote:

On Fri, 02 Apr 2004 21:21:48 GMT, "Weatherwax"
<weatherwax@worldnet.net> spake thusly:

< CLIP >

Dionysus, the son of Jupiter (Zeus) and a mortal
woman (Semele), is the prototype for Jesus Christ.
This includes the Indo-European motif of the suffering
god, who becomes immortal after his death.

It was not a large step from the Greek mystery religions to
Christianity.

The Greek mystery religions copied items from
Christianity.

===>Now THAT is a ridiculous, ignorant, anachronistic,
contrary to fact ASSertion! Typical of "Pastor" Dave. -- L.

Yet, many Christians believe that to be so. The theory is that
Satan predicted the form Christianity would take, and then copied
it before Christianity began.

Yeah, what's a little thing like cause-and-effect when religion is
involved?

===>The time machine is a work of the Devil.

I thought it was a work of H. G. Wells. :-)

Libertarius wrote:

Yeah, what's a little thing like cause-and-effect when religion is
involved?

===>The time machine is a work of the Devil.

I warned about those time-traveling satan worshipers!!!!!

Weatherwax wrote:

"Pangur Ban" <Pangur-Ban@SatisHouse.org> wrote

Weatherwax wrote:

Yet, many Christians believe that to be so. The theory is
that Satan predicted the form Christianity would take,
and then copied it before Christianity began.

--
Wax

Do you have a quick reference for this? If not, I can google

it

sometime during the week.

Pang - who's never heard this one before!

Unfortunately, I cannot cite my reference because it was thirty
to thirty-five years ago that I saw it. Unless somebody can
confirm that this has been done, you just have to take my word
for it, and that may not be worth much.

--
Wax

I choose to take your word. *smile* Thanks for the response.

Pang