| Topic: |
Religions > Atheism |
| User: |
"Pam" |
| Date: |
05 Apr 2004 01:13:24 AM |
| Object: |
Re: Will Kerry Be The First Excommunicated President ? |
Kerry may already be excommunicated:
http://www.catholicleague.org/04press_releases/quarter2/040402_kerry.htm
The Catholic League is the nation's largest Catholic civil rights
organization. It defends individual Catholics and the institutional
Church from defamation and discrimination.
April 2, 2004
MEDIA INTEREST IN KERRY'S CATHOLICISM GROWS
Catholic League president William Donohue commented as follows:
"The Catholic League does not possess a theological micrometer that
judges, with digital precision, how ‘good' a Catholic is.
Furthermore, it is not our business anyway. But it is also true that
we will not pretend disinterest in subjects that touch on the issue of
Catholics in public life.
"This week's issue of Time magazine says Senator John Kerry ‘sought an
annulment of his 18-year first marriage before marrying again.' News
reports indicate, however, that Kerry didn't seek an annulment until
after he married Teresa Heinz in a civil ceremony in 1995. Today's
New York Times says Kerry ‘sought an annulment from the church when he
was divorced from his first wife.' Notice that neither Time nor the
New York Times says that an annulment was granted. They say it was
‘sought.'
"Kerry cannot claim that this is a private matter since he publicly
joked about his quest for an annulment on the Don Imus show of May 8,
1997. ‘Seventy-five percent of all annulments in the world take place
in the United States,' Kerry said, ‘and I guess the figure drops to 50
percent if you take out all Massachusetts politicians.' He continued
saying, ‘It's one of those special Catholic things. It's like
confession or feeling guilty about things you haven't even thought of
doing.'
"On February 16, 2004, the Atlanta Journal-Constitution reported that
‘Kerry's office didn't respond to several e-mail and telephone
requests' regarding the question of whether an annulment was granted.
On March 23, 2003, the Providence Journal-Bulletin said that Kerry
‘will not say whether he obtained an annulment of his first
marriage….' Why the reticence, especially since Kerry says his
‘current marriage is in good graces with the church?'
"Why does this matter? If Kerry did not receive an annulment, then he
is not married in the Catholic Church and cannot receive the
sacraments. But even if he was annulled, did he and Teresa Heinz get
married in the Catholic Church following the annulment? If not, then
Kerry is not married in the Church, thus raising all sorts of
questions."
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| User: "Quasimodo" |
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| Title: www.excommunication.net - for all your excommunicating needs ! Re: Will Kerry Be The First Excommunicated President ? |
05 Apr 2004 06:45:35 PM |
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(Pam) wrote in message news:<1c3e7f33.0404042213.2a81cd09@posting.google.com>...
Kerry may already be excommunicated:
http://www.catholicleague.org/04press_releases/quarter2/040402_kerry.htm
And he won't be alone - for more info about excommunication, go to
http://www.excommunication.net/Introduction.htm
This web site is dedicated to the proposition that "Catholic"
champions of abominations such as abortion, euthanasia, and
infanticide should be admonished by Church authorities to publicly
renounce their positions; that the refusal to do so should result in
the public excommunication of the offenders in accord with canon law,
leaving aside the question of whether they had already incurred
automatic excommunication.
The penalty of excommunication is directed to the ends of reconciling
the offender with the Church and of alleviating scandal.
Excommunication should not be conditioned upon a political calculus of
expected changes in a politician's voting habits; nor upon whether
constituents will vote him out of office. Rather, the penalty should
be imposed because it is the correct thing to do.
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| User: "Gomez Addams" |
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| Title: Re: www.excommunication.net - for all your excommunicating needs ! Re: Will Kerry Be The First Excommunicated President ? |
05 Apr 2004 07:07:06 PM |
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"Quasimodo" <Quasimodo878@hotmail.com> wrote
Excommunication should not be conditioned upon a political calculus of
expected changes in a politician's voting habits; nor upon whether
constituents will vote him out of office. Rather, the penalty should
be imposed because it is the correct thing to do.
Couldn't have said it better myself.
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| User: "Mike Rhino" |
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| Title: Re: www.excommunication.net - for all your excommunicating needs ! Re: Will Kerry Be The First Excommunicated President ? |
06 Apr 2004 09:32:35 PM |
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"Quasimodo" <Quasimodo878@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:441fc990.0404051545.3cb02a32@posting.google.com...
sunet@tampabay.rr.com (Pam) wrote in message
news:<1c3e7f33.0404042213.2a81cd09@posting.google.com>...
Kerry may already be excommunicated:
http://www.catholicleague.org/04press_releases/quarter2/040402_kerry.htm
And he won't be alone - for more info about excommunication, go to
If somebody is excommunicated, does he go to hell? If so, doesn't that make
excommunication a worse crime than murder or rape? How can a Pope condone
such evil behavior?
If the Pope and Kerry disagree about what is right and wrong, how do you
know that it isn't the Pope who's wrong? It is natural for a Pope to think
that he's the one who's right, but it is also natural for a Pope to be
conceited. People keep talking about his humility, but I don't think so.
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| User: "Jordan Lund" |
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| Title: Re: www.excommunication.net - for all your excommunicating needs ! Re: Will Kerry Be The First Excommunicated President ? |
07 Apr 2004 02:54:00 PM |
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"Mike Rhino" <october2003@alexanderpics.com> wrote in message news:<7LJcc.2630$nd1.848@twister.socal.rr.com>...
If the Pope and Kerry disagree about what is right and wrong, how do you
know that it isn't the Pope who's wrong?
Because the Pope's infallible... DUH! :^)
- Jordan
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| User: "Christopher Adams" |
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| Title: Re: www.excommunication.net - for all your excommunicating needs ! Re: Will Kerry Be The First Excommunicated President ? |
10 Apr 2004 02:09:17 AM |
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Mike Rhino wrote:
If the Pope and Kerry disagree about what is right and wrong, how do you
know that it isn't the Pope who's wrong? It is natural for a Pope to
think that he's the one who's right, but it is also natural for a Pope
to be conceited. People keep talking about his humility, but I don't
think so.
Jordan Lund said the same thing in his reply to you, but a serious answer:
Catholic doctrine says that the Pope is infallible when speaking on points of
Catholic doctrine - i.e., to put it simplistically, God doesn't let the Pope
tell the Church things about what God wants that aren't true.
If you're a believing Catholic, you presumably assent to this part of Church
doctrine, so you know the Pope's right and Kerry's wrong if it's a point of
church doctrine - which abortion, for example, clearly is.
--
Christopher Adams
What part of "Ph'nglui mglw'nath Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn" don't you
understand?
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| User: "Mike Rhino" |
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| Title: Re: www.excommunication.net - for all your excommunicating needs ! Re: Will Kerry Be The First Excommunicated President ? |
11 Apr 2004 12:18:32 PM |
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"Christopher Adams" <mhacdebhandia@yahoo.invalid> wrote in message
news:x4Ndc.2857$ED.1257@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
Mike Rhino wrote:
If the Pope and Kerry disagree about what is right and wrong, how do you
know that it isn't the Pope who's wrong? It is natural for a Pope to
think that he's the one who's right, but it is also natural for a Pope
to be conceited. People keep talking about his humility, but I don't
think so.
Jordan Lund said the same thing in his reply to you, but a serious answer:
Catholic doctrine says that the Pope is infallible when speaking on points
of
Catholic doctrine - i.e., to put it simplistically, God doesn't let the
Pope
tell the Church things about what God wants that aren't true.
If you're a believing Catholic, you presumably assent to this part of
Church
doctrine, so you know the Pope's right and Kerry's wrong if it's a point
of
church doctrine - which abortion, for example, clearly is.
Many Catholics are pro-choice or have abortions, so it appears that many
Catholics don't accept this doctrine. I understand why the pope thinks he's
infallible -- because he's conceited. Many Catholics don't accept his
views. You can argue that Catholics who accept this doctrine accept this
doctrine, but that's a bit circular.
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| User: "Gomez Addams" |
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| Title: Re: www.excommunication.net - for all your excommunicating needs ! Re: Will Kerry Be The First Excommunicated President ? |
11 Apr 2004 05:25:04 PM |
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"Mike Rhino" <october2003@alexanderpics.com> wrote
Many Catholics are pro-choice or have abortions, so it appears that many
Catholics don't accept this doctrine. I understand why the pope thinks
he's
infallible -- because he's conceited.
I got news for you Bubba, the pope is right on the dot with this one.
ABORTION MURDERS BABIES.
MURDER IS PROHIBITED IN THE BIBLE.
DUH!!!!!!!!!!
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| User: "Bill Reich" |
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| Title: Re: www.excommunication.net - for all your excommunicating needs ! Re: Will Kerry Be The First Excommunicated President ? |
12 Apr 2004 08:18:38 AM |
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"Mike Rhino" <october2003@alexanderpics.com> wrote in message news:<I5fec.9423$Nr3.620@twister.socal.rr.com>...
"Christopher Adams" <mhacdebhandia@yahoo.invalid> wrote in message
news:x4Ndc.2857$ED.1257@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
Mike Rhino wrote:
If the Pope and Kerry disagree about what is right and wrong, how do you
know that it isn't the Pope who's wrong? It is natural for a Pope to
think that he's the one who's right, but it is also natural for a Pope
to be conceited. People keep talking about his humility, but I don't
think so.
Jordan Lund said the same thing in his reply to you, but a serious answer:
Catholic doctrine says that the Pope is infallible when speaking on points
of
Catholic doctrine - i.e., to put it simplistically, God doesn't let the
Pope
tell the Church things about what God wants that aren't true.
If you're a believing Catholic, you presumably assent to this part of
Church
doctrine, so you know the Pope's right and Kerry's wrong if it's a point
of
church doctrine - which abortion, for example, clearly is.
Many Catholics are pro-choice or have abortions, so it appears that many
Catholics don't accept this doctrine. I understand why the pope thinks he's
infallible -- because he's conceited. Many Catholics don't accept his
views. You can argue that Catholics who accept this doctrine accept this
doctrine, but that's a bit circular.
I am not a Catholic and I don't accept the doctrine of Papal
infallibility or the existence of god or Santa Clause (I have seen
more evidence for Santa Clause) but you are being silly when you
accuse him of being conceited. He believed sincerely in the doctrine
that the Popes are infallible when other men were Pope.
He beilieved in it when it seemed impossible that he, a Pole with
little political capital in the centers of Church power, would ever BE
pople. Now he is the Pope and he still believes in that doctrine. It
seems to me that this is just part of his sincere, if mistaken, belief
in the whole package of Church doctrine.
Most Cathollics being pro-choice is not important. If they wanted to
belong to a democratic organization, they picked the wrong one. The
view of the Church, backed up by the infallibility of the Pope, is
that they are wrong. They don't have to be Catholics. In fact, I think
that they would be better off leaving the Church and sending me five
bucks every week for absolution. BOY, I like that idea.
OK, everybody send me five bucks. I won't ask you your opinions on
abortion or anything else. I won't give you MY opinions on abortion or
anything else. In fact, I don't care what you do or how you get the
money. Just send me five damn bucks and your sins are forgiven.
--
Will in New Haven
President of Everyone Send me Five Dollars (ESFD)
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| User: "Christopher Adams" |
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| Title: Re: www.excommunication.net - for all your excommunicating needs ! Re: Will Kerry Be The First Excommunicated President ? |
11 Apr 2004 07:41:15 PM |
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Mike Rhino wrote:
Many Catholics are pro-choice or have abortions, so it appears that many
Catholics don't accept this doctrine. I understand why the pope thinks
he's infallible -- because he's conceited. Many Catholics don't accept
his views. You can argue that Catholics who accept this doctrine accept
this doctrine, but that's a bit circular.
If some Catholics don't accept the teachings of the Church, then they are by
definition not "good" believing and practicing Catholics. If the Church preaches
abstinence rather than birth control, or adoption rather than abortion, then
"good" Catholics are supposed to follow those teachings.
Now, whether or not following those teachings like you're supposed to is a
worthy goal for any given Catholic is irrelevant.
I know plenty of Catholics myself who use birth control, are engaging in sex
before marriage, and one who's engaged to a non-Catholic they don't plan to
marry in a Catholic ceremony. All of these things are "wrong" as far as the
Roman Catholic Church is concerned; the fact that some or even many Catholics
may disagree with the Church doesn't really matter *as far as the definition of
a believing and practicing Catholic goes*.
The entirety of the point is that if you're asking a Catholic why John Kerry is
wrong and the Pope is right, they are supposed to answer "Because God guides the
Church's teachings" or something similar. If they think Kerry's right and the
Pope's wrong, that makes them dissenting Catholics.
--
Christopher Adams
What part of "Ph'nglui mglw'nath Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn" don't you
understand?
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| User: "George Tirebiter" |
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| Title: Re: www.excommunication.net - for all your excommunicating needs ! Re: Will Kerry Be The First Excommunicated President ? |
11 Apr 2004 09:53:54 PM |
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In article <LAlec.4843$ED.3398@news-server.bigpond.net.au>,
"Christopher Adams" <mhacdebhandia@yahoo.invalid> wrote:
Mike Rhino wrote:
Many Catholics are pro-choice or have abortions, so it appears that many
Catholics don't accept this doctrine. I understand why the pope thinks
he's infallible -- because he's conceited. Many Catholics don't accept
his views. You can argue that Catholics who accept this doctrine accept
this doctrine, but that's a bit circular.
If some Catholics don't accept the teachings of the Church, then they are by
definition not "good" believing and practicing Catholics. If the Church
preaches
abstinence rather than birth control, or adoption rather than abortion, then
"good" Catholics are supposed to follow those teachings.
Like all those bad catholics who don't support the church's teachings on
social justice, capital punishment and just war.
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| User: "Christopher Adams" |
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| Title: Re: www.excommunication.net - for all your excommunicating needs ! Re: Will Kerry Be The First Excommunicated President ? |
12 Apr 2004 03:17:40 AM |
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George Tirebiter wrote:
Christopher Adams wrote:
Mike Rhino wrote:
Many Catholics are pro-choice or have abortions, so it appears that
many Catholics don't accept this doctrine. I understand why the pope
thinks he's infallible -- because he's conceited. Many Catholics
don't accept his views. You can argue that Catholics who accept this
doctrine accept this doctrine, but that's a bit circular.
If some Catholics don't accept the teachings of the Church, then they
are by definition not "good" believing and practicing Catholics. If the
Church preaches abstinence rather than birth control, or adoption
rather than abortion, then "good" Catholics are supposed to follow
those teachings.
Like all those bad catholics who don't support the church's teachings on
social justice, capital punishment and just war.
Don't make the childish mistake of thinking that I'm explaining this because I
believe it. I'm not a Catholic, I just play one on TV.
--
Christopher Adams
What part of "Ph'nglui mglw'nath Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn" don't you
understand?
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| User: "George Tirebiter" |
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| Title: Re: www.excommunication.net - for all your excommunicating needs ! Re: Will Kerry Be The First Excommunicated President ? |
10 Apr 2004 10:44:09 AM |
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In article <x4Ndc.2857$ED.1257@news-server.bigpond.net.au>,
"Christopher Adams" <mhacdebhandia@yahoo.invalid> wrote:
Mike Rhino wrote:
If the Pope and Kerry disagree about what is right and wrong, how do you
know that it isn't the Pope who's wrong? It is natural for a Pope to
think that he's the one who's right, but it is also natural for a Pope
to be conceited. People keep talking about his humility, but I don't
think so.
Jordan Lund said the same thing in his reply to you, but a serious answer:
Catholic doctrine says that the Pope is infallible when speaking on points of
Catholic doctrine - i.e., to put it simplistically, God doesn't let the Pope
tell the Church things about what God wants that aren't true.
That's simplistic to the point of error. Popes have taught lots of things
that aren't true.
If you're a believing Catholic, you presumably assent to this part of Church
doctrine, so you know the Pope's right and Kerry's wrong if it's a point of
church doctrine - which abortion, for example, clearly is.
Abortion is a teaching, not doctrine. Let us know when a statement about
abortion was added to the deposit of faith.
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| User: "Christopher Adams" |
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| Title: Re: www.excommunication.net - for all your excommunicating needs ! Re: Will Kerry Be The First Excommunicated President ? |
10 Apr 2004 10:28:02 PM |
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George Tirebiter wrote:
Christopher Adams wrote:
Mike Rhino wrote:
If the Pope and Kerry disagree about what is right and wrong, how do
you know that it isn't the Pope who's wrong? It is natural for a Pope
to think that he's the one who's right, but it is also natural for a
Pope to be conceited. People keep talking about his humility, but I
don't think so.
Jordan Lund said the same thing in his reply to you, but a serious
answer:
Catholic doctrine says that the Pope is infallible when speaking on
points of Catholic doctrine - i.e., to put it simplistically, God
doesn't let the Pope tell the Church things about what God wants that
aren't true.
That's simplistic to the point of error. Popes have taught lots of things
that aren't true.
How much does "Mike Rhino" need to know about the intricate details of Catholic
teaching and doctrine? The answer to the question "Why is the Pope supposedly
more right than John Kerry about abortion?" is "Because Catholics believe God
guides the Pope's teachings". The fact that Catholics more specifically believe
that there's a difference between papal infallibility and the general accuracy
of papal teachings isn't relevant, nor is nitpicking over non-definitional use
of words like "doctrine".
--
Christopher Adams
What part of "Ph'nglui mglw'nath Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn" don't you
understand?
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| User: "George Tirebiter" |
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| Title: Re: www.excommunication.net - for all your excommunicating needs ! Re: Will Kerry Be The First Excommunicated President ? |
11 Apr 2004 08:22:10 AM |
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In article <6X2ec.3915$ED.2847@news-server.bigpond.net.au>,
"Christopher Adams" <mhacdebhandia@yahoo.invalid> wrote:
George Tirebiter wrote:
Christopher Adams wrote:
Mike Rhino wrote:
If the Pope and Kerry disagree about what is right and wrong, how do
you know that it isn't the Pope who's wrong? It is natural for a Pope
to think that he's the one who's right, but it is also natural for a
Pope to be conceited. People keep talking about his humility, but I
don't think so.
Jordan Lund said the same thing in his reply to you, but a serious
answer:
Catholic doctrine says that the Pope is infallible when speaking on
points of Catholic doctrine - i.e., to put it simplistically, God
doesn't let the Pope tell the Church things about what God wants that
aren't true.
That's simplistic to the point of error. Popes have taught lots of things
that aren't true.
How much does "Mike Rhino" need to know about the intricate details of
Catholic
teaching and doctrine?
Enough to know that catholic teaching does not claim the pope is always
right. Popes have been wrong about a lot of things.
The answer to the question "Why is the Pope supposedly
more right than John Kerry about abortion?" is "Because Catholics believe God
guides the Pope's teachings".
The way god guided the pope into confining jews to ghettoes? The way he
guided the pope in sanctioning slavery? Forbidding interest on loans?
Opposing free speech or separation of church and state?
The fact that Catholics more specifically
believe
that there's a difference between papal infallibility and the general
accuracy
of papal teachings isn't relevant,
It's very much relevant. Abortion isn't an infallible teaching. Catholics
are supposed to give the pope the benefit of the doubt, but ultimately
their conscience is their guide.
nor is nitpicking over non-definitional
use
of words like "doctrine".
It's not nitpicking. Face it, you don't give a ***** about Kerry's doctrinal
purity. You just want to use a religious club for cheap political purposes.
Hell, if any of you hypocrites cared about who was a good catholic, the
bishop should refuse communion to the majority of catholics who show up on
easter. After all, it's porbably the first time they've been to church
since christmas.
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| User: "Gomez Addams" |
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| Title: Re: www.excommunication.net - for all your excommunicating needs ! Re: Will Kerry Be The First Excommunicated President ? |
11 Apr 2004 05:18:54 PM |
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"George Tirebiter" <Tirebiter7@netscape.net> wrote
It's very much relevant. Abortion isn't an infallible teaching. Catholics
are supposed to give the pope the benefit of the doubt, but ultimately
their conscience is their guide.
So murdering innocent children before they can draw their first breath
is something the Pope is =wrong= on.
You scare me.
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