| Topic: |
Religions > Atheism |
| User: |
"Words of Truth" |
| Date: |
16 Dec 2004 03:21:55 PM |
| Object: |
Reasons You Can Trust The Bible |
Reasons You Can Trust The Bible
The Trustworthiness of Our Greek New Testament.
How do we know that the Greek New Testament Texts we have today are
essentially the same as the original copies?
1. There are over 24,000 old manuscripts, that is hand written
copies, of portions of the New Testament (NT) today. Over 5,000 of
these old manuscripts are in Greek, the language the NT was written
in. Many manuscripts are in Latin, Syriac, or another
language.
2. The NT was completed around 95 AD when John wrote Revelation.
Our earliest manuscript fragment, John Rylands MS, dated 130 AD has a
few words of the gospel of John. The following old Greek manuscripts
contain most of the Bible or the NT:
The Vatican manuscript 350 AD= Bible.
Codex Sinaiticus 350 AD= NT.
Codex Alexandrinus 425 AD= Bible.
Manuscript of Ephraem 450 AD= NT.
Geddes MacGregor lists over 50
important Bible manuscripts in his book "The Bible in the Making."
While hardly any hand written copies are from the 2nd century over
25 are dated from the 3rd century (200's). Bruce Metzger lists over
30 NT manuscripts that are complete and without gaps in "Manuscripts
of the Greek Bible : an introduction to Greek Palaeography." His list
includes manuscripts 35, 241, and 1384 from the 11th century. Besides
this evidence we also have various old translations of the Bible and
NT like the Syriac and Latin versions. Jerome's Latin Vulgate 384 AD
for example. At "Encyclopedia of New Testament Textual Criticism"
you can find out all kinds of information about New Testament
manuscripts - types, numbers, dates, and versions, lectionaries, etc.
3. There are more surviving manuscripts of the NT than there are of
any other piece of ancient literature.
4. The oldest surviving manuscripts of most of the ancient Greek
authors are dated at least 700 years or more after the author's
original work.
5. Scholars believe that in essence we have the original works of
the ancient Greek authors, so why wouldn't one believe we have
copies of the writings of the New Testament authors?
6. God inspired or "breathed out" through human writers and their
personalities the entire original NT so that it contained no errors of
any kind. II Timothy 3:16. However, when men made copies of the NT they
sometimes mistook one Greek letter for another letter. Occasionally
they wrote a letter, word, or phrase down twice. At times a copier
inadvertently left out a letter, word, or phrase. Sometimes he
reversed the order of letters or words. Also a few scribes
intentionally changed the text to their liking. So today, the Greek
manuscripts we have of the NT are not all exactly the same. They do
have some minor variations or differences. Where differences appear
in Biblical manuscripts very intelligent people who are fluent in a
number of the appropriate languages study these ancient documents
and apply the science of textual criticism in an effort to determine
which text is the closest to the original text.
7. "The Interlinear Bible" by Jay P. Green contains the entire NT in
Greek and English on 229 pages. The Greek text he uses is commonly
called the Received Text. In an appendix on just 8 pages this book
lists almost every possible variation to the Greek Received Text
which could be of any importance at all. None of the possible
differences in the Greek affects or changes any teaching or doctrine
in the NT.
8. The early Christian leaders, usually called the early church
fathers, often quoted from the NT in their letters and writings.
We could construct all but a few verses of the entire NT from their
writings. Read the writings of the earliest church fathers. Many of
the writings of the early church fathers are also available on CD.
The Reliability of Our Hebrew Old Testament.
Here is some evidence that our Hebrew Old Testament (OT) texts are
in essence the same as the original copies.
1. Until the Dead Sea Scrolls were discovered in 1947 the oldest
complete copy of the Hebrew OT was dated around 1000 A.D. We also
had large portions of the OT that were written around 900 A.D.
2. The Dead Sea Scrolls were written between 200 B.C. and 68 A.D.
Among other things they contain portions of every book of the OT
except Esther.
3. The Dead Sea Scrolls contain a copy of Isaiah. That Isaiah which
was written 125 B.C. is 95% the same as the Isaiah written around
916 A.D. and with our Isaiah today. Most of the differences are just
obvious copying and spelling errors. The differences in Jeremiah are
greater. Scholars are not sure why. It may be they copied from a
manuscript of Jeremiah that was incomplete. As an aside, I'd like to
note that textural questions in the OT often seem to involve numbers
(which are easy to confuse).
4. The Masoretic or Hebrew text that the OT in our English Bibles
is translated from is very close to the Septuagint or Greek
translation of the OT made from the Hebrew text around 250 B.C.
5. Durning the 5th century B.C. the first five books of the OT were
written in the Samaritan text. This text agrees with our 10th century
copy of the Masoretic or Hebrew OT.
6. We have over 2000 manuscripts of the OT.
The Unique Origin Of The Bible.
The Bible is one of the few books that claims to be God's Word. It
makes this claim over 2000 times. Over 40 men, on three different
continents, writing in three different languages wrote the 66 books
of the Bible as God directed them to. The Bible is 66 books written
by many men, yet inspired or "breathed out" by God. II Peter 1:21.
II Timothy 3:16. The original writings of the Old and New
Testaments had absolutely no scientific, historical, or doctrinal
errors. Here's how the Bible came to be.
Adam and Eve, our first parents, didn't have any Bible. God talked to
Adam and Eve and their children directly and through visions, dreams,
and angels. Adam was created extremely intelligent and he could talk.
We know Adam could talk because Adam talked with God and he also named
all the animals. Later God began to talk to his people through prophets.
A prophet was someone that God talked to. Then the prophet told the
people around him what God said. Around 1450 B.C. God talked to the
prophet Moses. God told Moses to write down what He told him in a book.
Exodus 34:27. Numbers 33:2. Deuteronomy 31:9-13, 24-26. So Moses wrote
the first five books of the Old Testament.
Jesus, our Creator who has always existed, considered the Old
Testament to be true. Matthew 12:40; 19:4; 24:38-39. John 10:35.
After Moses wrote the Pentateuch, the first five books of the Old
Testament, Joshua and many other prophets wrote books as they were
moved to by God. Sometimes prophets like Joshua wrote an appendix
or ending on to the previous authors work. Everyone in those days
knew these books were written by prophets, men who spoke for God.
They knew these men were prophets because they could perform miracles
and when they said something would happen it always happened.
Deuteronomy 18:20-22. So the Hebrew people as a nation
accepted these books that claimed to be the Word of the Lord as such
and saw to it that they were read and carefully copied. It
should be noted that at least once they became very careless in
keeping track of God's Word. 2nd Kings 22:1-23:3
Malachi, the last book of the Old Testament was written about four
hundred years before the birth of Christ. Between the writing of
Malachi and the first book of the New Testament there were four
hundred years of silence - no messages from God.
Between 200 B.C. and 100 A.D. several apocryphal (hidden) books were
written. The Jews did not consider them to be Scripture. Yet, the
only difference between the Catholic Bible and the Protestant Bible
is that the Catholics include a number of apocryphal books in their
Old Testament. However, they were not officially recognized by the
Roman Catholic Church until 1545 A.D.
All of the New Testament was written before the close of the first
century. Every book in the New Testament was written either by an
apostle or an apostles friend or secretary. As these letters from
the apostles were sent to individuals and churches they were
recognized as being inspired, breathed out by God, and they were
circulated so they could be read publicly in the church services
of many groups. The Christians in various churches copied these
letters carefully and distributed them to other Christians and
churches. By 170 A.D. there was almost complete agreement by
everyone that the 27 books we now have in our New Testament were
inspired, breathed out by God. So when the canonization councils met
they were but formally confirming or setting forth a list of the
books that had already come to be recognized and accepted as
scripture or prophecy. "The Lion of Judah" has many more links to
articles on the reliability and cannonization of the Bible.
The Unique Unity And Message Of The Bible
The Old Testament is the agreement God had with man before Christ
came. The New Testament is the agreement God has with man now that
Christ has come. In Jeremiah 31:31 God foretold he would make a new
covenant with his people.
The Old Testament is built around the coming of a Redeemer, a
Savior, Jesus Christ. There are many very specific prophecies in
the Old Testament that point to the coming of the Savior or Messiah,
Jesus Christ. Jesus said that all the prophecies in the Old Testament
would be fulfilled. Matthew 5:17-18. The New Testament is built upon
the fact that Jesus came to this earth, lived, died, was buried,
rose from the grave alive, ascended into heaven, and is coming
again!
The main message of the Old Testament is Jesus is coming! The main
message of the New Testament is Jesus has come! The main message of
Revelation is Jesus is coming again! The main message of the Bible
is Jesus!
http://www.trustbible.com
.
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| User: "Don" |
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| Title: Re: Reasons You Can Trust The Bible |
16 Dec 2004 07:40:51 PM |
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"Words of Truth" <wordsoftruth417@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:3d02dea6.0412161321.35e69856@posting.google.com...
How do we know that the Greek New Testament Texts we have today are
essentially the same as the original copies?
Documentary coherence: The short answer to this question is that the early
fragments are astonishingly similar in content to one another and to the NT
canon. Three is therefore little reason to believe that the communities
which owned the manuscripts had falsified or allowed material errors to
creep in. In addition quotation materials are (in the main) accurate
renditions of the known sources.
Theological coherence: The material is consistent with what we otherwise
know about the theological commitments of the early communities. And the
theologies of the early communities resonate well with our knowledge of
other forms of Jewish faith at the time (for example with the Essene
influences, Honi and the like).
Another answer is that it doesn't matter, since the manuscripts shed light
on instances of a living faith held within the dissparate communities which
wrote and used them. We have, as it were, snap shots of the early churches
rather than a movie - but those images are very illuminating. It is
therefore appropriate to study the theology of those communities rather than
to try and posit some earlier community or manuscript version about which we
know little. Furthermore, as a living faith, it is quite possible for God to
speak to us through the canonical versions.
regards
Don
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| User: "BudikkaMAPS" |
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| Title: Re: Reasons You Can Trust The Bible |
19 Dec 2004 10:45:01 AM |
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Don wrote:
...it is quite possible for God to
speak to us through the canonical versions.
Why would a god do that instead of speaking directly? Why risk the
message being distorted and misrepresented as the Bible message has
been for centuries.
There is zero evidence for the existence of god. In order to give us
even one reason to trust the Bible, the existence of this god would
have to be demonstrated. It never has been.
Even if there is a god as described in the Bible, why would we want
anything to do with a child molesting serial killer like that?
Budikka
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| User: "Roy Banicevic none" |
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| Title: Re: Reasons You Can Trust The Bible |
17 Dec 2004 07:03:42 AM |
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"Words of Truth" <wordsoftruth417@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:3d02dea6.0412161321.35e69856@posting.google.com...
Reasons You Can Trust The Bible
<snip>
3. The Dead Sea Scrolls contain a copy of Isaiah. That Isaiah which
was written 125 B.C. is 95% the same as the Isaiah written around
916 A.D. and with our Isaiah today. Most of the differences are just
obvious copying and spelling errors.
If the Bible is the inspired word of God, as it claims, would God not ensure
copying and spelling errors would not occur ?
<snip>
Roy
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| User: "Avstraliiski" |
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| Title: Re: Reasons You Can Trust The Bible |
19 Dec 2004 05:06:16 AM |
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"Roy Banicevic" <none> wrote in message
news:41c2d912$0$1121$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au...
"Words of Truth" <wordsoftruth417@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:3d02dea6.0412161321.35e69856@posting.google.com...
Reasons You Can Trust The Bible
<snip>
3. The Dead Sea Scrolls contain a copy of Isaiah. That Isaiah which
was written 125 B.C. is 95% the same as the Isaiah written around
916 A.D. and with our Isaiah today. Most of the differences are just
obvious copying and spelling errors.
If the Bible is the inspired word of God, as it claims, would God not
ensure copying and spelling errors would not occur ?
<snip>
Roy
Yes, god knows that errors occur. Thus it is his will.
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| User: "Gordon" |
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| Title: Re: Reasons You Can Trust The Bible |
19 Dec 2004 11:38:49 AM |
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On Sat, 18 Dec 2004 00:03:42 +1100, "Roy Banicevic" <none> wrote:
"Words of Truth" <wordsoftruth417@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:3d02dea6.0412161321.35e69856@posting.google.com...
Reasons You Can Trust The Bible
<snip>
3. The Dead Sea Scrolls contain a copy of Isaiah. That Isaiah which
was written 125 B.C. is 95% the same as the Isaiah written around
916 A.D. and with our Isaiah today. Most of the differences are just
obvious copying and spelling errors.
If the Bible is the inspired word of God, as it claims, would God not ensure
copying and spelling errors would not occur ?
<snip>
Roy
Refer to the first two chapters of the book of Job for further
insights into the matter of God's work being corrupted by Satan.
God does not stop Satan in this effort, but allows him some
latitude for corrupting and disorganizing God's own work.
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| User: "Enkidu" |
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| Title: Re: Reasons You Can Trust The Bible |
16 Dec 2004 10:42:42 PM |
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(Words of Truth) wrote in
news:3d02dea6.0412161321.35e69856@posting.google.com:
Reasons You Can Trust The Bible
The Trustworthiness of Our Greek New Testament.
How do we know that the Greek New Testament Texts we have today are
essentially the same as the original copies?
1. There are over 24,000 old manuscripts, that is hand written
copies, of portions of the New Testament (NT) today. Over 5,000 of
these old manuscripts are in Greek, the language the NT was written
in. Many manuscripts are in Latin, Syriac, or another
language.
And not a fragment whose authorship is known, not a fragment contemporary
to the "events" they describe, and EVERY document was hand written from
then till 1500 years after. Handwritten copies of handwritten copies are
no more reliable than the original.
2. The NT was completed around 95 AD when John wrote Revelation.
Our earliest manuscript fragment, John Rylands MS, dated 130 AD has a
few words of the gospel of John. The following old Greek manuscripts
contain most of the Bible or the NT:
Totaly bogus. The NT as we know it today was compiled hundreds of years
later, with books included and other excluded.
[snip turds of truth]
--
Enkidu
"Yee-Ha" is not a foreign policy.
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| User: "Josef Balluch" |
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| Title: Re: Reasons You Can Trust The Bible |
16 Dec 2004 06:31:53 PM |
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In a message sent 'round the world, Words of Truth poured fuel on the
fire with the following:
Reasons You Can Trust The Bible
....
Reasons why you can't trust the Bible:
http://tinyurl.com/4gby
Regards,
Josef
The inspiration of the Bible depends upon the ignorance of the
gentleman who reads it.
-- Robert G. Ingersoll
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| User: "BDK" |
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| Title: Re: Reasons You Can Trust The Bible |
16 Dec 2004 10:12:25 PM |
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In article <3d02dea6.0412161321.35e69856
@posting.google.com>,
says...
Reasons You Can Trust The Bible
The Trustworthiness of Our Greek New Testament.
How do we know that the Greek New Testament Texts we have today are
essentially the same as the original copies?
1. There are over 24,000 old manuscripts, that is hand written
copies, of portions of the New Testament (NT) today. Over 5,000 of
these old manuscripts are in Greek, the language the NT was written
in. Many manuscripts are in Latin, Syriac, or another
language.
And there are thousands upon thousands of copies of many
modern bestselling fiction novels, in many languages. It
doesn't mean they are true. And why would it?
2. The NT was completed around 95 AD when John wrote Revelation.
Our earliest manuscript fragment, John Rylands MS, dated 130 AD has a
few words of the gospel of John. The following old Greek manuscripts
contain most of the Bible or the NT:
The Vatican manuscript 350 AD= Bible.
Codex Sinaiticus 350 AD= NT.
Codex Alexandrinus 425 AD= Bible.
Manuscript of Ephraem 450 AD= NT.
Geddes MacGregor lists over 50
important Bible manuscripts in his book "The Bible in the Making."
While hardly any hand written copies are from the 2nd century over
25 are dated from the 3rd century (200's). Bruce Metzger lists over
30 NT manuscripts that are complete and without gaps in "Manuscripts
of the Greek Bible : an introduction to Greek Palaeography." His list
includes manuscripts 35, 241, and 1384 from the 11th century. Besides
this evidence we also have various old translations of the Bible and
NT like the Syriac and Latin versions. Jerome's Latin Vulgate 384 AD
for example. At "Encyclopedia of New Testament Textual Criticism"
you can find out all kinds of information about New Testament
manuscripts - types, numbers, dates, and versions, lectionaries, etc.
3. There are more surviving manuscripts of the NT than there are of
any other piece of ancient literature.
So??
4. The oldest surviving manuscripts of most of the ancient Greek
authors are dated at least 700 years or more after the author's
original work.
So??
5. Scholars believe that in essence we have the original works of
the ancient Greek authors, so why wouldn't one believe we have
copies of the writings of the New Testament authors?
LOL, Why would we??
6. God inspired or "breathed out" through human writers and their
personalities the entire original NT so that it contained no errors of
any kind. II Timothy 3:16. However, when men made copies of the NT they
sometimes mistook one Greek letter for another letter. Occasionally
they wrote a letter, word, or phrase down twice. At times a copier
inadvertently left out a letter, word, or phrase. Sometimes he
reversed the order of letters or words. Also a few scribes
intentionally changed the text to their liking. So today, the Greek
manuscripts we have of the NT are not all exactly the same. They do
have some minor variations or differences. Where differences appear
in Biblical manuscripts very intelligent people who are fluent in a
number of the appropriate languages study these ancient documents
and apply the science of textual criticism in an effort to determine
which text is the closest to the original text.
Or the same thing happened when they copied them. So?
7. "The Interlinear Bible" by Jay P. Green contains the entire NT in
Greek and English on 229 pages. The Greek text he uses is commonly
called the Received Text. In an appendix on just 8 pages this book
lists almost every possible variation to the Greek Received Text
which could be of any importance at all. None of the possible
differences in the Greek affects or changes any teaching or doctrine
in the NT.
So what??
8. The early Christian leaders, usually called the early church
fathers, often quoted from the NT in their letters and writings.
We could construct all but a few verses of the entire NT from their
writings. Read the writings of the earliest church fathers. Many of
the writings of the early church fathers are also available on CD.
SO?
The Reliability of Our Hebrew Old Testament.
Here is some evidence that our Hebrew Old Testament (OT) texts are
in essence the same as the original copies.
1. Until the Dead Sea Scrolls were discovered in 1947 the oldest
complete copy of the Hebrew OT was dated around 1000 A.D. We also
had large portions of the OT that were written around 900 A.D.
2. The Dead Sea Scrolls were written between 200 B.C. and 68 A.D.
Among other things they contain portions of every book of the OT
except Esther.
3. The Dead Sea Scrolls contain a copy of Isaiah. That Isaiah which
was written 125 B.C. is 95% the same as the Isaiah written around
916 A.D. and with our Isaiah today. Most of the differences are just
obvious copying and spelling errors. The differences in Jeremiah are
greater. Scholars are not sure why. It may be they copied from a
manuscript of Jeremiah that was incomplete. As an aside, I'd like to
note that textural questions in the OT often seem to involve numbers
(which are easy to confuse).
4. The Masoretic or Hebrew text that the OT in our English Bibles
is translated from is very close to the Septuagint or Greek
translation of the OT made from the Hebrew text around 250 B.C.
5. Durning the 5th century B.C. the first five books of the OT were
written in the Samaritan text. This text agrees with our 10th century
copy of the Masoretic or Hebrew OT.
6. We have over 2000 manuscripts of the OT.
And it proves nothing, except there are lots of copies..
The Unique Origin Of The Bible.
The Bible is one of the few books that claims to be God's Word. It
makes this claim over 2000 times. Over 40 men, on three different
continents, writing in three different languages wrote the 66 books
of the Bible as God directed them to. The Bible is 66 books written
by many men, yet inspired or "breathed out" by God. II Peter 1:21.
II Timothy 3:16. The original writings of the Old and New
Testaments had absolutely no scientific, historical, or doctrinal
errors. Here's how the Bible came to be.
LOL, if you believe the above, you must be broke from
getting suckered into all kinds of scams and offers!
Adam and Eve, our first parents, didn't have any Bible. God talked to
Adam and Eve and their children directly and through visions, dreams,
and angels. Adam was created extremely intelligent and he could talk.
We know Adam could talk because Adam talked with God and he also named
all the animals. Later God began to talk to his people through prophets.
A prophet was someone that God talked to. Then the prophet told the
people around him what God said. Around 1450 B.C. God talked to the
prophet Moses. God told Moses to write down what He told him in a book.
Exodus 34:27. Numbers 33:2. Deuteronomy 31:9-13, 24-26. So Moses wrote
the first five books of the Old Testament.
Wha?? Are you serious?? Please, see a shrink, STAT!!
Jesus, our Creator who has always existed, considered the Old
Testament to be true. Matthew 12:40; 19:4; 24:38-39. John 10:35.
After Moses wrote the Pentateuch, the first five books of the Old
Testament, Joshua and many other prophets wrote books as they were
moved to by God. Sometimes prophets like Joshua wrote an appendix
or ending on to the previous authors work. Everyone in those days
knew these books were written by prophets, men who spoke for God.
They knew these men were prophets because they could perform miracles
and when they said something would happen it always happened.
Deuteronomy 18:20-22. So the Hebrew people as a nation
accepted these books that claimed to be the Word of the Lord as such
and saw to it that they were read and carefully copied. It
should be noted that at least once they became very careless in
keeping track of God's Word. 2nd Kings 22:1-23:3
Malachi, the last book of the Old Testament was written about four
hundred years before the birth of Christ. Between the writing of
Malachi and the first book of the New Testament there were four
hundred years of silence - no messages from God.
Between 200 B.C. and 100 A.D. several apocryphal (hidden) books were
written. The Jews did not consider them to be Scripture. Yet, the
only difference between the Catholic Bible and the Protestant Bible
is that the Catholics include a number of apocryphal books in their
Old Testament. However, they were not officially recognized by the
Roman Catholic Church until 1545 A.D.
All of the New Testament was written before the close of the first
century. Every book in the New Testament was written either by an
apostle or an apostles friend or secretary. As these letters from
the apostles were sent to individuals and churches they were
recognized as being inspired, breathed out by God, and they were
circulated so they could be read publicly in the church services
of many groups. The Christians in various churches copied these
letters carefully and distributed them to other Christians and
churches. By 170 A.D. there was almost complete agreement by
everyone that the 27 books we now have in our New Testament were
inspired, breathed out by God. So when the canonization councils met
they were but formally confirming or setting forth a list of the
books that had already come to be recognized and accepted as
scripture or prophecy. "The Lion of Judah" has many more links to
articles on the reliability and cannonization of the Bible.
The Unique Unity And Message Of The Bible
The Old Testament is the agreement God had with man before Christ
came. The New Testament is the agreement God has with man now that
Christ has come. In Jeremiah 31:31 God foretold he would make a new
covenant with his people.
The Old Testament is built around the coming of a Redeemer, a
Savior, Jesus Christ. There are many very specific prophecies in
the Old Testament that point to the coming of the Savior or Messiah,
Jesus Christ. Jesus said that all the prophecies in the Old Testament
would be fulfilled. Matthew 5:17-18. The New Testament is built upon
the fact that Jesus came to this earth, lived, died, was buried,
rose from the grave alive, ascended into heaven, and is coming
again!
Fact?? Hardly.
The main message of the Old Testament is Jesus is coming! The main
message of the New Testament is Jesus has come! The main message of
Revelation is Jesus is coming again! The main message of the Bible
is Jesus!
Sorry, I'm not interested in fictional characters...
BDK
http://www.trustbible.com
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| User: "BudikkaMAPS" |
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| Title: Re: Reasons You Can Trust The Bible |
19 Dec 2004 10:39:08 AM |
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Never Hear of Truth wrote:
1. There are over 24,000 old manuscripts, that is hand written
copies, of portions of the New Testament (NT) today. Over 5,000 of
these old manuscripts are in Greek, the language the NT was written
in. Many manuscripts are in Latin, Syriac, or another language.
There are 4.5 million copies of "The Da Vinci Code" in existence. They
are exact duplicates of the original passed down to us by book sellers.
This proves that Mary Magdalene was Jesus' wife and is buried in
France.
2. The NT was completed around 95 AD when John wrote Revelation.
We don't know who wrote the gospels. The authors are anonymous. The
reason there are only four in the Bible is that the church itself
thought the others were too absurd to include. Of those four, two are
direct plagiarisms of another, so there are effectively only two
gospels in the NT, both of which disagree, and contian errors.
Our earliest manuscript fragment, John Rylands MS, dated 130 AD has a
few words of the gospel of John. The following old Greek manuscripts
contain most of the Bible or the NT:
The Vatican manuscript 350 AD= Bible.
Codex Sinaiticus 350 AD= NT.
Codex Alexandrinus 425 AD= Bible.
Manuscript of Ephraem 450 AD= NT.
Geddes MacGregor lists over 50
important Bible manuscripts in his book "The Bible in the Making."
While hardly any hand written copies are from the 2nd century over
25 are dated from the 3rd century (200's). Bruce Metzger lists over
30 NT manuscripts that are complete and without gaps in "Manuscripts
of the Greek Bible : an introduction to Greek Palaeography." His list
includes manuscripts 35, 241, and 1384 from the 11th century. Besides
this evidence we also have various old translations of the Bible and
NT like the Syriac and Latin versions. Jerome's Latin Vulgate 384 AD
for example. At "Encyclopedia of New Testament Textual Criticism"
you can find out all kinds of information about New Testament
manuscripts - types, numbers, dates, and versions, lectionaries, etc.
You can repeat a lie as accurately as you wish - it doesn't change the
fact that it's a lie. All you've "proven" is that people who
whole-heartedly swallow a lie can perpetutate the lie accurately.
3. There are more surviving manuscripts of the NT than there are of
any other piece of ancient literature.
So what? All you've "proven" is that people who whole-heartedly
swallow a lie can propagate the lie.
5. Scholars believe that in essence we have the original works of
the ancient Greek authors, so why wouldn't one believe we have
copies of the writings of the New Testament authors?
Because there is no evidence whatsoever that there is a god.
Because there is no valid evidence outside of the gospels that there
ever was a Jesus Christ, miracle-working son of some god.
Because the gospels demonstrably lie.
Because the gospels demonstrably contradict each other.
Because the gospels plagiarize liberally from earlier myths.
6. God inspired or "breathed out"
There is no evidence whatsoever that there is a god.
[Rest of tired ***** snipped.]
Budikka
.
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| User: "raven1" |
|
| Title: Re: Reasons You Can Trust The Bible |
16 Dec 2004 06:00:08 PM |
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|
On 16 Dec 2004 13:21:55 -0800, (Words of
Truth) wrote:
Reasons You Can Trust The Bible
The Trustworthiness of Our Greek New Testament.
How do we know that the Greek New Testament Texts we have today are
essentially the same as the original copies?
1. There are over 24,000 old manuscripts, that is hand written
copies, of portions of the New Testament (NT) today. Over 5,000 of
these old manuscripts are in Greek, the language the NT was written
in. Many manuscripts are in Latin, Syriac, or another
language.
This is irrelevant to the truth or falsity of the claims contained
therein.
2. The NT was completed around 95 AD when John wrote Revelation.
It's very likely that some documents, including the Gospel of John
(which is almost certainly *not* by the same author as Revelation)
were composed after 95 CE, perhaps as late as 120 CE.
..
Our earliest manuscript fragment, John Rylands MS, dated 130 AD has a
few words of the gospel of John. The following old Greek manuscripts
contain most of the Bible or the NT:
The Vatican manuscript 350 AD= Bible.
Codex Sinaiticus 350 AD= NT.
Codex Alexandrinus 425 AD= Bible.
Manuscript of Ephraem 450 AD= NT.
Again, so what? This is irrelevant to the truth or falsity of the
claims contained therein.
Geddes MacGregor lists over 50
important Bible manuscripts in his book "The Bible in the Making."
While hardly any hand written copies are from the 2nd century over
25 are dated from the 3rd century (200's). Bruce Metzger lists over
30 NT manuscripts that are complete and without gaps in "Manuscripts
of the Greek Bible : an introduction to Greek Palaeography." His list
includes manuscripts 35, 241, and 1384 from the 11th century. Besides
this evidence we also have various old translations of the Bible and
NT like the Syriac and Latin versions. Jerome's Latin Vulgate 384 AD
for example. At "Encyclopedia of New Testament Textual Criticism"
you can find out all kinds of information about New Testament
manuscripts - types, numbers, dates, and versions, lectionaries, etc.
Again, so what? This is irrelevant to the truth or falsity of the
claims contained therein.
3. There are more surviving manuscripts of the NT than there are of
any other piece of ancient literature.
Again, so what? This is irrelevant to the truth or falsity of the
claims contained therein.
4. The oldest surviving manuscripts of most of the ancient Greek
authors are dated at least 700 years or more after the author's
original work.
Again, so what? This is irrelevant to the truth or falsity of the
claims contained therein.
5. Scholars believe that in essence we have the original works of
the ancient Greek authors, so why wouldn't one believe we have
copies of the writings of the New Testament authors?
Again, so what? This is irrelevant to the truth or falsity of the
claims contained therein.
6. God inspired or "breathed out" through human writers and their
personalities the entire original NT so that it contained no errors of
any kind. II Timothy 3:16.
Your evidence to support that assertion would be...?
However, when men made copies of the NT they
sometimes mistook one Greek letter for another letter. Occasionally
they wrote a letter, word, or phrase down twice. At times a copier
inadvertently left out a letter, word, or phrase. Sometimes he
reversed the order of letters or words. Also a few scribes
intentionally changed the text to their liking. So today, the Greek
manuscripts we have of the NT are not all exactly the same. They do
have some minor variations or differences. Where differences appear
in Biblical manuscripts very intelligent people who are fluent in a
number of the appropriate languages study these ancient documents
and apply the science of textual criticism in an effort to determine
which text is the closest to the original text.
Again, so what? This is irrelevant to the truth or falsity of the
claims contained therein.
7. "The Interlinear Bible" by Jay P. Green contains the entire NT in
Greek and English on 229 pages. The Greek text he uses is commonly
called the Received Text. In an appendix on just 8 pages this book
lists almost every possible variation to the Greek Received Text
which could be of any importance at all. None of the possible
differences in the Greek affects or changes any teaching or doctrine
in the NT.
Again, so what? This is irrelevant to the truth or falsity of the
claims contained therein.
8. The early Christian leaders, usually called the early church
fathers, often quoted from the NT in their letters and writings.
We could construct all but a few verses of the entire NT from their
writings. Read the writings of the earliest church fathers. Many of
the writings of the early church fathers are also available on CD.
Again, so what? This is irrelevant to the truth or falsity of the
claims contained therein.
The Reliability of Our Hebrew Old Testament.
Here is some evidence that our Hebrew Old Testament (OT) texts are
in essence the same as the original copies.
Again, so what? This is irrelevant to the truth or falsity of the
claims contained therein.
1. Until the Dead Sea Scrolls were discovered in 1947 the oldest
complete copy of the Hebrew OT was dated around 1000 A.D. We also
had large portions of the OT that were written around 900 A.D.
Again, so what? This is irrelevant to the truth or falsity of the
claims contained therein.
2. The Dead Sea Scrolls were written between 200 B.C. and 68 A.D.
Among other things they contain portions of every book of the OT
except Esther.
Again, so what? This is irrelevant to the truth or falsity of the
claims contained therein.
3. The Dead Sea Scrolls contain a copy of Isaiah. That Isaiah which
was written 125 B.C. is 95% the same as the Isaiah written around
916 A.D. and with our Isaiah today. Most of the differences are just
obvious copying and spelling errors. The differences in Jeremiah are
greater. Scholars are not sure why. It may be they copied from a
manuscript of Jeremiah that was incomplete. As an aside, I'd like to
note that textural questions in the OT often seem to involve numbers
(which are easy to confuse).
Again, so what? This is irrelevant to the truth or falsity of the
claims contained therein.
4. The Masoretic or Hebrew text that the OT in our English Bibles
is translated from is very close to the Septuagint or Greek
translation of the OT made from the Hebrew text around 250 B.C.
Again, so what? This is irrelevant to the truth or falsity of the
claims contained therein.
5. Durning the 5th century B.C. the first five books of the OT were
written in the Samaritan text. This text agrees with our 10th century
copy of the Masoretic or Hebrew OT.
Again, so what? This is irrelevant to the truth or falsity of the
claims contained therein.
6. We have over 2000 manuscripts of the OT.
Again, so what? This is irrelevant to the truth or falsity of the
claims contained therein.
The Unique Origin Of The Bible.
The Bible is one of the few books that claims to be God's Word.
The same could be said about the Bhagavad-Gita, which, is again,
irrelevant to the truth or falsity of the claims contained in either
work.
It
makes this claim over 2000 times.
Again, so what? This is irrelevant to the truth or falsity of the
claims contained therein.
Over 40 men, on three different
continents, writing in three different languages wrote the 66 books
of the Bible as God directed them to. The Bible is 66 books written
by many men, yet inspired or "breathed out" by God. II Peter 1:21.
II Timothy 3:16. The original writings of the Old and New
Testaments had absolutely no scientific, historical, or doctrinal
errors.
You're completely delusional. The Bible is filled with literally
hundreds of errors of each kind.
www.skepticsannotatedbible.com
Here's how the Bible came to be.
The same way every purported "Sacred Scripture" came to be: humans
made it up.
<snip remaining crapola>
.
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| User: "thomas p" |
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| Title: Re: Reasons You Can Trust The Bible |
17 Dec 2004 12:00:22 AM |
|
|
On 16 Dec 2004 13:21:55 -0800, (Words of
Truth) wrote:
Reasons You Can Trust The Bible
The Trustworthiness of Our Greek New Testament.
How do we know that the Greek New Testament Texts we have today are
essentially the same as the original copies?
More important question: What evidence is there for its claims?
None? I thought so.
snip of remaining irrelevance.
.
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| User: "Vic Sagerquist" |
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| Title: Re: Reasons You Can Trust The Bible |
16 Dec 2004 08:57:41 PM |
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On 16 Dec 2004, Words of Truth dropped trou, farted, whirled, then shouted:
Reasons You Can Trust The Bible
Hebrews 11:1
Faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not
seen.
--
Vic Sagerquist
aa#2011
Supervisor, EAC Department of little adhesive-backed "L" shaped
chrome-plastic doo-dads to add feet to Jesus fish department
--------
Hebrews 11:1
Faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not
seen.
.
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| User: "Mekkala" |
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| Title: Re: Reasons You Can Trust The Bible |
16 Dec 2004 04:22:20 PM |
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On Thu 16 Dec 2004 03:21:55p, (Words of
Truth) kicked back with a beer, ruminated at length, fell asleep, woke
up, lit up a joint, then fell asleep again after thoughtfully blurting
out:
The paper didn't answer the question. It didn't give reasons to trust
the Bible, it gave reasons to believe that the Bible is still more or
less the same now as it was a couple thousand years ago. That's not
evidence that the Bible is true or trustworthy.
--
Mekkala, Atheist #2148
"Atheism is ... the bed-rock of sanity in a world of madness."
--Emmett F. Fields
.
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| User: "MarkA" |
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| Title: Re: Reasons You Can Trust The Bible |
17 Dec 2004 06:57:44 AM |
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On Thu, 16 Dec 2004 13:21:55 -0800, Words of Truth wrote:
Reasons You Can Trust The Bible
The Trustworthiness of Our Greek New Testament.
It seems to me that if someone were walking around, providing convincing
evidence that He is God, and He as a few things to say, that *someone*
would have thought to write them down *at the time He was saying them*. I
guess a lot of bible literalists are unaware of people's tendency to
inflate stories as they are told and re-told over a hundred years or so.
--
MarkA
(still caught in the maze of twisty little passages, all different)
.
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| User: "Uncle Dollar Bill" |
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| Title: Re: Reasons You Can Trust The Bible |
19 Dec 2004 09:30:29 AM |
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Reasons you can trust the bible:
1. It has no power, and thus can't kill you;
2. As a material object, it can be relied upon to adhere to
well-understood processes such as gravity;
3. Never a shortage of kindling as long as you have the bible and at
least one match or light in your lighter;
4. Also never a shortage of toilet paper, at least so long as you
have one of the ones with the usual tissuey pages. Maybe a little
more abrasive than "Cottonelle"(TM), but it gets the job done just the
same;
5. As a collection of some of the billions of human-spawned myths
over the centuries, it can be relied upon to give insight into the
mindset of the eras both in which any given piece was written, as well
as the era in which these hundreds and thousands of individual texts
were snipped from their original context and placed randomly together
in badly cut-and-pasted "books" for the purpose of serving various
primitive political agendas;
6. As long as you have one and seem to take it seriously, _and_ you
seem to have the same interpretation of it as any given Christian,
that Christian isn't likely to kill, harass or discriminate against
you;
7. You can always trust that even the vaguest suggestion that some
part of it might be in any way somehow less than 100% perfect will
bring about plenty of Christian malice directed squarely at you;
8. You can trust that as a badly-done cut-and-paste job, it's full of
verses and concepts which were never intended by their originators to
go together (such as "love or mercy" and the Judeo-Christian-Islamic
god);
9. You can always trust that as a badly-done cut-ant-paste job that
is hundreds, sometimes even thousands of years old, it has absolutely
no relevance to the modern world whatsoever;
10. You can always trust that as the product of a primitive time, the
majority of thought and moralizing done therein might be suitable for
stone-age barbarians but few others.
.
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| User: "Jack Stone" |
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| Title: Re: Reasons You Can Trust The Bible |
19 Dec 2004 02:52:30 PM |
|
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"Uncle Dollar Bill" <UncleDollarBill@SpamMeNot.com> wrote in message
news:617bs0dngm4cu8l9prstl7dfjg9fa8moaj@4ax.com...
Reasons you can trust the bible:
1. It has no power, and thus can't kill you;
2. As a material object, it can be relied upon to adhere to
well-understood processes such as gravity;
3. Never a shortage of kindling as long as you have the bible and at
least one match or light in your lighter;
4. Also never a shortage of toilet paper, at least so long as you
have one of the ones with the usual tissuey pages. Maybe a little
more abrasive than "Cottonelle"(TM), but it gets the job done just the
same;
5. As a collection of some of the billions of human-spawned myths
over the centuries, it can be relied upon to give insight into the
mindset of the eras both in which any given piece was written, as well
as the era in which these hundreds and thousands of individual texts
were snipped from their original context and placed randomly together
in badly cut-and-pasted "books" for the purpose of serving various
primitive political agendas;
6. As long as you have one and seem to take it seriously, _and_ you
seem to have the same interpretation of it as any given Christian,
that Christian isn't likely to kill, harass or discriminate against
you;
7. You can always trust that even the vaguest suggestion that some
part of it might be in any way somehow less than 100% perfect will
bring about plenty of Christian malice directed squarely at you;
8. You can trust that as a badly-done cut-and-paste job, it's full of
verses and concepts which were never intended by their originators to
go together (such as "love or mercy" and the Judeo-Christian-Islamic
god);
9. You can always trust that as a badly-done cut-ant-paste job that
is hundreds, sometimes even thousands of years old, it has absolutely
no relevance to the modern world whatsoever;
10. You can always trust that as the product of a primitive time, the
majority of thought and moralizing done therein might be suitable for
stone-age barbarians but few others.
This is a fuckin' keeper, I'm saving it :-)
--
Jack Stone
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
"Lepsi pivo v zaludku nezli voda na plicich."
""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""
''
"It's better to have beer in the stomach than water in the lungs."
J. Cimrman
.
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| User: "BudikkaMAPS" |
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| Title: Re: Reasons You Can Trust The Bible |
19 Dec 2004 10:50:44 AM |
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Uncle Dollar Bill wrote:
Reasons you can trust the bible:
1. It has no power, and thus can't kill you;
2. As a material object, it can be relied upon to adhere to
well-understood processes such as gravity;
3. Never a shortage of kindling as long as you have the bible and at
least one match or light in your lighter;
4. Also never a shortage of toilet paper, at least so long as you
have one of the ones with the usual tissuey pages. Maybe a little
more abrasive than "Cottonelle"(TM), but it gets the job done just
the
same;
5. As a collection of some of the billions of human-spawned myths
over the centuries, it can be relied upon to give insight into the
mindset of the eras both in which any given piece was written, as
well
as the era in which these hundreds and thousands of individual texts
were snipped from their original context and placed randomly together
in badly cut-and-pasted "books" for the purpose of serving various
primitive political agendas;
6. As long as you have one and seem to take it seriously, _and_ you
seem to have the same interpretation of it as any given Christian,
that Christian isn't likely to kill, harass or discriminate against
you;
7. You can always trust that even the vaguest suggestion that some
part of it might be in any way somehow less than 100% perfect will
bring about plenty of Christian malice directed squarely at you;
8. You can trust that as a badly-done cut-and-paste job, it's full
of
verses and concepts which were never intended by their originators to
go together (such as "love or mercy" and the Judeo-Christian-Islamic
god);
9. You can always trust that as a badly-done cut-ant-paste job that
is hundreds, sometimes even thousands of years old, it has absolutely
no relevance to the modern world whatsoever;
10. You can always trust that as the product of a primitive time,
the
majority of thought and moralizing done therein might be suitable for
stone-age barbarians but few others.
You and Tukla should go into stand-up comedy together! I loved it!
B.
.
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| User: "BudikkaMAPS" |
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| Title: Re: Reasons You Can Trust The Bible |
19 Dec 2004 10:52:15 AM |
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Turds of Truth wrote:
Reasons You Can Trust The Bible
[Misguided ***** snipped]
What a pity, then, if it's so wonderful, that not a single Christian
follows it.
Budikka
.
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| User: "Jack Stone" |
|
| Title: Re: Reasons You Can Trust The Bible |
18 Dec 2004 03:41:54 PM |
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|
Where is your God? Never seen him. Your Bible is nothing but a mix of
certain historical events with fantasies. You can't trust the Bible any more
than you can trust any stories of the past told by mouth before writing.
What a sheer stupidity that in the 21st. century so many people still
believe what is written in that book. Or Koran for that matter. You all
could do humanity a favor by committing mass suicide (and therefore meeting
your God earlier than projected :-) Bellow is a manual :
"Words of Truth" <wordsoftruth417@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:3d02dea6.0412161321.35e69856@posting.google.com...
Reasons You Can Trust The Bible
............... rest of the crap nuked...
Read this instead:
http://apnews.myway.com/article/20041218/D871OT4O0.html
Conductor Kills Self Inside L.A. Cathedral
Dec 17, 8:57 PM (ET)
By LAURA WIDES
GARDEN GROVE, Calif. (AP) - The longtime conductor of the Crystal Cathedral
Orchestra - a composer and arranger who worked with Celine Dion and John
Tesh - shot himself to death at the soaring glass-and-steel church Friday
after a nine-hour standoff that started just before a Christmas pageant was
to begin.
Johnnie Carl, 57, got into argument Thursday evening with another employee,
went back to his office and fired four shots, then barricaded himself in a
bathroom and committed suicide as police officers tried to talk to him,
authorities said.
Carl, conductor at the cathedral for nearly 30 years, had grappled with
depression, authorities said.
The 128-foot-high church, designed in part by the architect Philip Johnson
and completed in 1980, is home to the Rev. Robert Schuller's Crystal
Cathedral Ministries and claims a congregation of more than 10,000. Carl
directed the music on Schuller's internationally televised "Hour of Power"
broadcast from the cathedral.
Carl also arranged or recorded music for such artists as Dion, Tesh, Michael
Crawford, the London Symphony and Lee Greenwood. He was an arranger and
orchestrator on Tesh's "Live from Red Rocks" and was an arranger on Dion's
Christmas special "These Are Special Times," Schuller spokesman Michael
Nason said.
Tesh said Carl was unusual in his ability to handle classical, choral and
pop music.
"He was a genius arranger and conductor, one of those guys who lives music
24-7," Tesh said. "He was just a real jolly and energetic and gentle guy,
not somebody who screams or yells."
Tesh said he believed Carl had taken on a number of projects and was under
"a great deal of pressure."
The 78-year-old Schuller came to the police command post set up near the
cathedral late Thursday and taped a message for Carl, but police did not
have the chance to play it to him.
"Johnnie was a beloved member of our church family and close personal
friend," Schuller said in a statement. "He was a creative genius whose
beautiful arrangements and superb conducting set new levels of excellence
for sacred music."
Nason said Carl had spoken about his depression in the past. Nason said
Carl, a married father of three, had last talked to him about his troubles
about a year ago - "just a sense of personal pressures, job, and things
around him, dealing with people around him."
The first shots were fired less than two hours before the scheduled start of
the cathedral's annual "Glory of Christmas" holiday show, for which Carl had
arranged the prerecorded music. Some 100 cast members were preparing for the
first of Thursday's two programs, which include the cathedral's
world-renowned pipe organ and a Nativity scene featuring live animals.
The programs were canceled Thursday but were scheduled to go on Friday.
After the gunfire broke out, children in a day care center on the grounds
were rushed to safety, while staff members and others were slowly evacuated.
David Hoffman, 52, of Front Royal, Va., was among hundreds of people from
around the country who had come to see the show. He decided to fly out to
California after watching Carl on the "Hour of Power."
"I'm shocked. He was a wonderful artist," said Hoffman, a professional
musician. He said Carl had "the creativity to take the standards and make
them evolved and living."
--
Jack Stone
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
"Lepsi pivo v zaludku nezli voda na plicich."
""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""
''
"It's better to have beer in the stomach than water in the lungs."
J. Cimrman
.
|
|
|
| User: "Gordon" |
|
| Title: Re: Reasons You Can Trust The Bible |
18 Dec 2004 06:47:38 PM |
|
|
On Sat, 18 Dec 2004 22:41:54 +0100, "Jack Stone"
<stljacks@hotmailNOSPAM.com> wrote:
Where is your God? Never seen him. Your Bible is nothing but a mix of
certain historical events with fantasies. You can't trust the Bible any more
than you can trust any stories of the past told by mouth before writing.
What a sheer stupidity that in the 21st. century so many people still
believe what is written in that book. Or Koran for that matter. You all
could do humanity a favor by committing mass suicide (and therefore meeting
your God earlier than projected :-) Bellow is a manual :
God is all around and throughout us and our universe, and on
throughout the multiverse. At the SS-M, quantum level His
consciousness functions in an infinitely more complex manner, yet
somewhat as our mortal minds function by means of our 100 billion
brain neurons and the 1,000 to 10,000 synapses associated with
each of these neurons. God's mind "synapses" are super string
interlinkings similar to quantum entanglements.
Now, can anyone investigate things at the quantum level and
produce empirical evidence that this is not so? Should we toss it
aside as though we KNOW it isn't so? Is there a slight chance
that it IS so? Do we know all there is to know at the quantum
level?
"Words of Truth" <wordsoftruth417@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:3d02dea6.0412161321.35e69856@posting.google.com...
Reasons You Can Trust The Bible
.............. rest of the crap nuked...
Read this instead:
http://apnews.myway.com/article/20041218/D871OT4O0.html
Conductor Kills Self Inside L.A. Cathedral
Dec 17, 8:57 PM (ET)
By LAURA WIDES
GARDEN GROVE, Calif. (AP) - The longtime conductor of the Crystal Cathedral
Orchestra - a composer and arranger who worked with Celine Dion and John
Tesh - shot himself to death at the soaring glass-and-steel church Friday
after a nine-hour standoff that started just before a Christmas pageant was
to begin.
Johnnie Carl, 57, got into argument Thursday evening with another employee,
went back to his office and fired four shots, then barricaded himself in a
bathroom and committed suicide as police officers tried to talk to him,
authorities said.
Carl, conductor at the cathedral for nearly 30 years, had grappled with
depression, authorities said.
The 128-foot-high church, designed in part by the architect Philip Johnson
and completed in 1980, is home to the Rev. Robert Schuller's Crystal
Cathedral Ministries and claims a congregation of more than 10,000. Carl
directed the music on Schuller's internationally televised "Hour of Power"
broadcast from the cathedral.
Carl also arranged or recorded music for such artists as Dion, Tesh, Michael
Crawford, the London Symphony and Lee Greenwood. He was an arranger and
orchestrator on Tesh's "Live from Red Rocks" and was an arranger on Dion's
Christmas special "These Are Special Times," Schuller spokesman Michael
Nason said.
Tesh said Carl was unusual in his ability to handle classical, choral and
pop music.
"He was a genius arranger and conductor, one of those guys who lives music
24-7," Tesh said. "He was just a real jolly and energetic and gentle guy,
not somebody who screams or yells."
Tesh said he believed Carl had taken on a number of projects and was under
"a great deal of pressure."
The 78-year-old Schuller came to the police command post set up near the
cathedral late Thursday and taped a message for Carl, but police did not
have the chance to play it to him.
"Johnnie was a beloved member of our church family and close personal
friend," Schuller said in a statement. "He was a creative genius whose
beautiful arrangements and superb conducting set new levels of excellence
for sacred music."
Nason said Carl had spoken about his depression in the past. Nason said
Carl, a married father of three, had last talked to him about his troubles
about a year ago - "just a sense of personal pressures, job, and things
around him, dealing with people around him."
The first shots were fired less than two hours before the scheduled start of
the cathedral's annual "Glory of Christmas" holiday show, for which Carl had
arranged the prerecorded music. Some 100 cast members were preparing for the
first of Thursday's two programs, which include the cathedral's
world-renowned pipe organ and a Nativity scene featuring live animals.
The programs were canceled Thursday but were scheduled to go on Friday.
After the gunfire broke out, children in a day care center on the grounds
were rushed to safety, while staff members and others were slowly evacuated.
David Hoffman, 52, of Front Royal, Va., was among hundreds of people from
around the country who had come to see the show. He decided to fly out to
California after watching Carl on the "Hour of Power."
"I'm shocked. He was a wonderful artist," said Hoffman, a professional
musician. He said Carl had "the creativity to take the standards and make
them evolved and living."
.
|
|
|
| User: "Jack Stone" |
|
| Title: Re: Reasons You Can Trust The Bible |
19 Dec 2004 02:58:47 PM |
|
|
"Gordon" <gordonlr@DELETEswbell.net> wrote in message
news:adj9s0dvbprhg2bgcu82d8tdtfd80sl7p7@4ax.com...
On Sat, 18 Dec 2004 22:41:54 +0100, "Jack Stone"
<stljacks@hotmailNOSPAM.com> wrote:
Where is your God? Never seen him. Your Bible is nothing but a mix of
certain historical events with fantasies. You can't trust the Bible any
more
than you can trust any stories of the past told by mouth before writing.
What a sheer stupidity that in the 21st. century so many people still
believe what is written in that book. Or Koran for that matter. You all
could do humanity a favor by committing mass suicide (and therefore
meeting
your God earlier than projected :-) Bellow is a manual :
God is all around and throughout us and our universe, and on
throughout the multiverse. At the SS-M, quantum level His
consciousness functions in an infinitely more complex manner, yet
somewhat as our mortal minds function by means of our 100 billion
brain neurons and the 1,000 to 10,000 synapses associated with
each of these neurons. God's mind "synapses" are super string
interlinkings similar to quantum entanglements.
Now, can anyone investigate things at the quantum level and
produce empirical evidence that this is not so? Should we toss it
aside as though we KNOW it isn't so? Is there a slight chance
that it IS so? Do we know all there is to know at the quantum
level?
Obviously not. But then create at least some more believable book than your
medieval Bible is :-) Religious people have no choice but to admit
technological and scientific discoveries, although mostly very much later
when there's no longer a reasonable way to call them a fake and burn people
at stake for them :-)
Tell me, why didn't humans always know that the Earth is ball of matter
circulating the Sun by gravity? Why did the Church claim that the Earth was
flat? Why wasn't the Pope of its time told by God of this?
I tell you why. Because even if there would be some kind of God or higher
being running this Universe, his/its attention ends right up at technical
level of running it. He/it wouldn't give a ***** about our worshipping it and
therefore we are absolutely free to do what we want.
Churches and religions are not created by God but by men as nothing else but
social and power institutions.
Jesus is a (2000 years old) dead man, same with Mohammed, Moses, Adam, Eve
and who knows who else. They are not holy, the're just dead. If they ever
existed for that matter.
--
Jack Stone
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
"Lepsi pivo v zaludku nezli voda na plicich."
""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""
''
"It's better to have beer in the stomach than water in the lungs."
J. Cimrman
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| User: "BudikkaMAPS" |
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| Title: Re: Reasons You Can Trust The Bible |
19 Dec 2004 10:49:02 AM |
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Since you requested this message not be archived, I'll preserve it in
its entireity, so your lies and ***** won't disappear.
Gordon wrote:
On Sat, 18 Dec 2004 22:41:54 +0100, "Jack Stone"
<stljacks@hotmailNOSPAM.com> wrote:
Where is your God? Never seen him. Your Bible is nothing but a mix
of
certain historical events with fantasies. You can't trust the Bible
any more
than you can trust any stories of the past told by mouth before
writing.
What a sheer stupidity that in the 21st. century so many people
still
believe what is written in that book. Or Koran for that matter. You
all
could do humanity a favor by committing mass suicide (and therefore
meeting
your God earlier than projected :-) Bellow is a manual :
God is all around and throughout us and our universe, and on
throughout the multiverse. At the SS-M, quantum level His
consciousness functions in an infinitely more complex manner, yet
somewhat as our mortal minds function by means of our 100 billion
brain neurons and the 1,000 to 10,000 synapses associated with
each of these neurons. God's mind "synapses" are super string
interlinkings similar to quantum entanglements.
Now, can anyone investigate things at the quantum level and
produce empirical evidence that this is not so? Should we toss it
aside as though we KNOW it isn't so? Is there a slight chance
that it IS so? Do we know all there is to know at the quantum
level?
"Words of Truth" <wordsoftruth417@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:3d02dea6.0412161321.35e69856@posting.google.com...
Reasons You Can Trust The Bible
.............. rest of the crap nuked...
Read this instead:
http://apnews.myway.com/article/20041218/D871OT4O0.html
Conductor Kills Self Inside L.A. Cathedral
Dec 17, 8:57 PM (ET)
By LAURA WIDES
GARDEN GROVE, Calif. (AP) - The longtime conductor of the Crystal
Cathedral
Orchestra - a composer and arranger who worked with Celine Dion and
John
Tesh - shot himself to death at the soaring glass-and-steel church
Friday
after a nine-hour standoff that started just before a Christmas
pageant was
to begin.
Johnnie Carl, 57, got into argument Thursday evening with another
employee,
went back to his office and fired four shots, then barricaded
himself in a
bathroom and committed suicide as police officers tried to talk to
him,
authorities said.
Carl, conductor at the cathedral for nearly 30 years, had grappled
with
depression, authorities said.
The 128-foot-high church, designed in part by the architect Philip
Johnson
and completed in 1980, is home to the Rev. Robert Schuller's Crystal
Cathedral Ministries and claims a congregation of more than 10,000.
Carl
directed the music on Schuller's internationally televised "Hour of
Power"
broadcast from the cathedral.
Carl also arranged or recorded music for such artists as Dion, Tesh,
Michael
Crawford, the London Symphony and Lee Greenwood. He was an arranger
and
orchestrator on Tesh's "Live from Red Rocks" and was an arranger on
Dion's
Christmas special "These Are Special Times," Schuller spokesman
Michael
Nason said.
Tesh said Carl was unusual in his ability to handle classical,
choral and
pop music.
"He was a genius arranger and conductor, one of those guys who lives
music
24-7," Tesh said. "He was just a real jolly and energetic and gentle
guy,
not somebody who screams or yells."
Tesh said he believed Carl had taken on a number of projects and was
under
"a great deal of pressure."
The 78-year-old Schuller came to the police command post set up near
the
cathedral late Thursday and taped a message for Carl, but police did
not
have the chance to play it to him.
"Johnnie was a beloved member of our church family and close
personal
friend," Schuller said in a statement. "He was a creative genius
whose
beautiful arrangements and superb conducting set new levels of
excellence
for sacred music."
Nason said Carl had spoken about his depression in the past. Nason
said
Carl, a married father of three, had last talked to him about his
troubles
about a year ago - "just a sense of personal pressures, job, and
things
around him, dealing with people around him."
The first shots were fired less than two hours before the scheduled
start of
the cathedral's annual "Glory of Christmas" holiday show, for which
Carl had
arranged the prerecorded music. Some 100 cast members were preparing
for the
first of Thursday's two programs, which include the cathedral's
world-renowned pipe organ and a Nativity scene featuring live
animals.
The programs were canceled Thursday but were scheduled to go on
Friday.
After the gunfire broke out, children in a day care center on the
grounds
were rushed to safety, while staff members and others were slowly
evacuated.
David Hoffman, 52, of Front Royal, Va., was among hundreds of people
from
around the country who had come to see the show. He decided to fly
out to
California after watching Carl on the "Hour of Power."
"I'm shocked. He was a wonderful artist," said Hoffman, a
professional
musician. He said Carl had "the creativity to take the standards and
make
them evolved and living."
Now when you actually have some evidence for this mythical god of
yours, please do post it.
Budikka
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| User: "Tukla Ratte" |
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| Title: Re: Reasons You Can Trust The Bible |
17 Dec 2004 09:47:52 AM |
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Words of Truth wrote:
Reasons You Can Trust The Bible
10) Makes excellent kindling.
9) Just the right size and weight to throw at visiting
Jehovah's Witnesses.
8) Revelation is a great read when you're dropping acid.
7) In most Christians' homes, it's the safest place for
dust to settle.
6) Helps fix that wobbly desk.
5) Good hiding place for whiskey flask.
4) Every translation says something different.
3) Contains excellent plots for porn films.
2) Reading it makes your family seem less fucked up
in comparison.
1) Without it, no Tammy Faye jokes!
--
Tukla, Eater of Theists, Squeaker of Chew Toys
Official Mascot of Alt.Atheism, aa 1347
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| User: "BudikkaMAPS" |
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| Title: Re: Reasons You Can Trust The Bible |
19 Dec 2004 10:49:51 AM |
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Tukla Ratte wrote:
Words of Truth wrote:
Reasons You Can Trust The Bible
10) Makes excellent kindling.
9) Just the right size and weight to throw at visiting
Jehovah's Witnesses.
8) Revelation is a great read when you're dropping acid.
7) In most Christians' homes, it's the safest place for
dust to settle.
6) Helps fix that wobbly desk.
5) Good hiding place for whiskey flask.
4) Every translation says something different.
3) Contains excellent plots for porn films.
2) Reading it makes your family seem less fucked up
in comparison.
1) Without it, no Tammy Faye jokes!
LoL!
B.
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