Religion Isn't The Sickness. It's The Cure Of Moral Failure Of Modernism



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Topic: Religions > Atheism
User: "Sound of Trumpet"
Date: 01 Apr 2007 08:06:59 AM
Object: Religion Isn't The Sickness. It's The Cure Of Moral Failure Of Modernism
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1805007/posts
Religion isn't the sickness. It's the cure: ur correspondent on the
moral failure of modernism
timesonline.co.uk ^ | February 26, 2007 | Wlliam Rees-Mogg
Posted on 03/22/2007 8:44:07 AM PDT by Longinus

From The Times

February 26, 2007
Religion isn't the sickness. It's the cure
Our correspondent on the moral failure of modernism
Wlliam Rees-Mogg

From the earliest days Christianity has been opposed to slavery. In

his Letter to the Galatians, St Paul wrote: "As many of you that have
been baptised in Christ, have put on Christ. There is neither Jew nor
Greek: there is neither bond nor free: there is neither male nor
female. We were all one in Jesus Christ." Undoubtedly Christians have
compromised with slavery - as with other social evils - in the course
of history, but the orthodox Christian doctrine is one of liberty and
equality.
The Christian belief was the inspiration in William Wilberforce's long
campaign to end the slave trade. His Bill received the Royal Assent on
March 25, 1807, 200 years ago. That was the most important of all the
great reforms of the 19th century; essentially it was a Christian
reform, inspired by the Protestant conversion of Wilberforce himself.
March 25 was the old New Year's Day; it is also the feast of the
Annunciation of Mary, the Mother of Jesus.
We live in an age when modernists regard religion with something
approaching panic. It is like the Devil's attitude to Holy Water.
There was a comic example of Christianophobia in The Sunday Times
yesterday. Michael Portillo, who used himself to be seen in Brompton
Oratory, was hyperventilating at the idea of David Cameron going to
church. "I worry," he wrote, "because men of power who take
instruction from unseen forces are essentially fanatics . . . I would
be more reassured to hear that the Tory leader goes to church because
that is what it takes to get a child into the best of state schools,
not because he is a believer."
Perhaps this neurotic response to Mr Cameron's habit of going to
church reflects Mr Portillo's recognition that religion is again
becoming an important influence on society. Many of the current news
stories show that religion is back in public consciousness; for those
who feel uneasy about religion, that is unwelcome.
Islam is, of course, the alarming religious issue that will not go
away. In the 20th century the world failed to adjust to two major
belief systems, nationalism and Marxism. Now we face a similar global
challenge from Islam, which opposes Judaism in Israel, Hinduism in
India, Buddhism in South East Asia, Christianity in Europe and America
and modernism in the whole advanced world. We certainly cannot say
that all religious influences are benign; al-Qaeda is a religious
cult, but a perverted one.
Religion turned William Wilberforce into a Protestant saint, but
Wahhabism has turned Osama bin Laden into a devil.
The rise of militant Islam in the 21st century is, however, part of a
much broader phenomenon. In the United States there has been the
extraordinary resurgence of fundamentalist Protestantism, sufficiently
strong to win two presidential elections for the Republican Party. In
Britain, an inflow of Catholics from Eastern Europe, particularly
Poland, has revitalised the Roman Catholic Church, which now has the
largest Christian congregation in the country. The worldwide Church of
England has been divided by a battle of moral convictions. All of
these religious movements challenge modernism, that popular mix of
materialism, scientism and political correctness that had seemed to be
carrying all before it.
The modernist attack on religion was based on the victory of science,
and particularly of neo-Darwinism. Yet science was open to the same
challenge as religion; it could explain only half the world. The
scientists, or some of them, sneered at religion for being unable to
explain the developments of nature. Yet science itself was unable to
produce a science-based morality for society. Marxism attempted to
create a scientific social order that ended in monstrous and
bloodthirsty tyranny. Social Darwinism either meant eugenics and the
slaughter of babies who were not thought fit to survive, or it meant
nothing. The Social Darwinism of George Bernard Shaw, or indeed that
of Adolf Hitler, has been rejected by mankind.
The world needs religion to address the moral issues. In the advanced
societies it is these moral issues that now mock us. Europe and North
America are hugely wealthy regions, but they are morally impoverished.
Broken families, drugs, booze, youth gangs, crime, neglect of children
and the old, the sheer boredom of shopaholicism, terrorism, the inner-
city slums, materialism itself, are all the marks of a global society
in decline. Societies can be judged by their care for children. Social
education must start in the family and must have a moral basis.
Children need to be taught to distinguish between right and wrong. A
recent report by Unicef showed Britain as 21st out of 21 advanced
countries in the welfare of children; our national failure is a shame
and a disgrace.
In 19th century England, the revival of Christianity provided the
basis for a century of social reform. The religious revival spread
across all the Christian churches; in the Church of England there was
the Evangelical movement as well as the High Church movement. The
Roman Catholic Church attracted thousands of new converts. The
Methodists and other Nonconformists devoted themselves to the welfare
of the poor and the working class. The Salvation Army took its
trumpets into the pubs and slums and offered a new hope.
The 19th century was an age of social reform based on religious
revival and the Christian faith. The 20th century was an age of
religious decline and of accelerating decline in social cohesion as
well as in faith. "Ill fares the land, to hastening ills a prey/ When
wealth accumulates and men decay."
These are lines from Oliver Goldsmith's moving poem, The Deserted
Village in the 18th century. If they seem to apply to our modern
societies, religion is not the problem; it is the only possible remedy.
.

User: "Doc Smartass"

Title: Re: Religion Isn't The Sickness. It's The Cure Of Moral Failure Of Modernism 01 Apr 2007 06:25:24 PM
"Sound of Trumpet" <sound_of_trumpet@warpmail.net> wrote in
news:1175432819.134426.223690@o5g2000hsb.googlegroups.com:

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1805007/posts


Religion isn't the sickness. It's the cure: ur correspondent on the
moral failure of modernism


timesonline.co.uk ^ | February 26, 2007 | Wlliam Rees-Mogg


Posted on 03/22/2007 8:44:07 AM PDT by Longinus


From The Times


February 26, 2007

Religion isn't the sickness. It's the cure
Our correspondent on the moral failure of modernism

Wlliam Rees-Mogg

From the earliest days Christianity has been opposed to slavery.

Opposed to christains being enslaved, he means. Everyone else was fair
game.
--
Doc Smartass, BAAWA Knight of Heckling
aa # 1939
AUTHORITARIANS ARE PERVERTS. Why?
--They consider themselves shepherds.
--They consider the rest of us sheep.
--Shepherds ***** sheep.
--Therefore AUTHORITARIANS ARE PERVERTS.
.
User: "Dan Clore"

Title: Re: Religion Isn't The Sickness. It's The Cure Of Moral Failure OfModernism 02 Apr 2007 02:26:07 AM
Doc Smartass wrote:

From the earliest days Christianity has been opposed to slavery.


Opposed to christains being enslaved, he means. Everyone else was fair
game.

Actually, before racism, the primary justification for slavery was to
convert the slaves to Christianity and save their souls from eternal
hellfire.
--
Dan Clore
My collected fiction, _The Unspeakable and Others_:
http://amazon.com/o/ASIN/1587154838/ref=nosim/thedanclorenecro
Lord We˙rdgliffe & Necronomicon Page:
http://www.geocities.com/clorebeast/
News & Views for Anarchists & Activists:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/smygo
Strange pleasures are known to him who flaunts the
immarcescible purple of poetry before the color-blind.
-- Clark Ashton Smith, "Epigrams and Apothegms"
.
User: "brique"

Title: Re: Religion Isn't The Sickness. It's The Cure Of Moral Failure OfModernism 02 Apr 2007 01:18:30 PM
Dan Clore <clore@columbia-center.org> wrote in message
news:57bpgoF2atetlU1@mid.individual.net...

Doc Smartass wrote:

From the earliest days Christianity has been opposed to slavery.


Opposed to christains being enslaved, he means. Everyone else was fair
game.


Actually, before racism, the primary justification for slavery was to
convert the slaves to Christianity and save their souls from eternal
hellfire.

Only after the long theological debate as to whether blacks _had_ souls or
not.....


--
Dan Clore

My collected fiction, _The Unspeakable and Others_:
http://amazon.com/o/ASIN/1587154838/ref=nosim/thedanclorenecro
Lord We˙rdgliffe & Necronomicon Page:
http://www.geocities.com/clorebeast/
News & Views for Anarchists & Activists:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/smygo

Strange pleasures are known to him who flaunts the
immarcescible purple of poetry before the color-blind.
-- Clark Ashton Smith, "Epigrams and Apothegms"

.

User: "*Anarcissie*"

Title: Religion Is Sickness 02 Apr 2007 07:16:29 AM
On Apr 2, 3:26 am, Dan Clore <c...@columbia-center.org> wrote:

Doc Smartass wrote:

From the earliest days Christianity has been opposed to slavery.


Opposed to christains being enslaved, he means. Everyone else was fair
game.


Actually, before racism, the primary justification for slavery was to
convert the slaves to Christianity and save their souls from eternal
hellfire.

This was also given as the reason for imperialism and genocide
in the "New World".
.
User: "Scotius"

Title: Re: Religion Is Sickness 03 Apr 2007 02:48:11 PM
On 2 Apr 2007 05:16:29 -0700, "*Anarcissie*" <anarcissie@gmail.com>
wrote:

On Apr 2, 3:26 am, Dan Clore <c...@columbia-center.org> wrote:

Doc Smartass wrote:

From the earliest days Christianity has been opposed to slavery.


Opposed to christains being enslaved, he means. Everyone else was fair
game.


Actually, before racism, the primary justification for slavery was to
convert the slaves to Christianity and save their souls from eternal
hellfire.


This was also given as the reason for imperialism and genocide
in the "New World".

William Pierce, the neo nazi leader of the National Alliance,
said that he blamed the Christian churches for America's acceptance of
ideas of racial equality, etc. I guess if you want to cherry pick from
history, you can look at what the Vatican (NOT representative of
Christianity) has done around the World and blame it on Christianity,
but that's so shallow that only the massively ignorant could ever
accept it.
.
User: "Wombat"

Title: Re: Religion Is Sickness 03 Apr 2007 03:49:26 PM
On 3 Apr, 21:48, Scotius <wolvz...@mnsi.net> wrote:

On 2 Apr 2007 05:16:29 -0700, "*Anarcissie*" <anarcis...@gmail.com>
wrote:

On Apr 2, 3:26 am, Dan Clore <c...@columbia-center.org> wrote:

Doc Smartass wrote:

From the earliest days Christianity has been opposed to slavery.


Opposed to christains being enslaved, he means. Everyone else was fair
game.


Actually, before racism, the primary justification for slavery was to
convert the slaves to Christianity and save their souls from eternal
hellfire.


This was also given as the reason for imperialism and genocide
in the "New World".


William Pierce, the neo nazi leader of the National Alliance,
said that he blamed the Christian churches for America's acceptance of
ideas of racial equality, etc. I guess if you want to cherry pick from
history, you can look at what the Vatican (NOT representative of
Christianity)

Why the qualifier - just curious?
Wombat

has done around the World and blame it on Christianity,
but that's so shallow that only the massively ignorant could ever
accept it.

.

User: ""

Title: Re: Religion Is Sickness 03 Apr 2007 08:40:38 PM
On Apr 3, 12:48 pm, Scotius <wolvz...@mnsi.net> wrote:

On 2 Apr 2007 05:16:29 -0700, "*Anarcissie*" <anarcis...@gmail.com>
wrote:

On Apr 2, 3:26 am, Dan Clore <c...@columbia-center.org> wrote:

Doc Smartass wrote:

From the earliest days Christianity has been opposed to slavery.


Opposed to christains being enslaved, he means. Everyone else was fair
game.


Actually, before racism, the primary justification for slavery was to
convert the slaves to Christianity and save their souls from eternal
hellfire.


This was also given as the reason for imperialism and genocide
in the "New World".


William Pierce, the neo nazi leader of the National Alliance,
said that he blamed the Christian churches for America's acceptance of
ideas of racial equality, etc. I guess if you want to cherry pick from
history, you can look at what the Vatican (NOT representative of
Christianity) has done around the World and blame it on Christianity,
but that's so shallow that only the massively ignorant could ever
accept it.

You mean like sending food money and workes to areas stricken by
calamity?
You mean like asking for Peace in troubled regions?
How dare they! Eh?
Go back to shuul, fool.
.

User: "Hatter"

Title: Re: Religion Is Sickness 03 Apr 2007 03:20:06 PM
On Apr 3, 3:48 pm, Scotius <wolvz...@mnsi.net> wrote:

On 2 Apr 2007 05:16:29 -0700, "*Anarcissie*" <anarcis...@gmail.com>
wrote:

On Apr 2, 3:26 am, Dan Clore <c...@columbia-center.org> wrote:

Doc Smartass wrote:

From the earliest days Christianity has been opposed to slavery.


Opposed to christains being enslaved, he means. Everyone else was fair
game.


Actually, before racism, the primary justification for slavery was to
convert the slaves to Christianity and save their souls from eternal
hellfire.


This was also given as the reason for imperialism and genocide
in the "New World".


William Pierce, the neo nazi leader of the National Alliance,
said that he blamed the Christian churches for America's acceptance of
ideas of racial equality, etc. I guess if you want to cherry pick from
history, you can look at what the Vatican (NOT representative of
Christianity) has done around the World and blame it on Christianity,
but that's so shallow that only the massively ignorant could ever
accept it.

Except until Luther "the Vatican" and Christianity were....the same.
Or are we to overlook those first 1500 years?
Hatter
.
User: "Wombat"

Title: Re: Religion Is Sickness 03 Apr 2007 03:51:23 PM
On 3 Apr, 22:20, "Hatter" <Hatte...@gmail.com> wrote:

On Apr 3, 3:48 pm, Scotius <wolvz...@mnsi.net> wrote:





On 2 Apr 2007 05:16:29 -0700, "*Anarcissie*" <anarcis...@gmail.com>
wrote:


On Apr 2, 3:26 am, Dan Clore <c...@columbia-center.org> wrote:

Doc Smartass wrote:

From the earliest days Christianity has been opposed to slavery.


Opposed to christains being enslaved, he means. Everyone else was fair
game.


Actually, before racism, the primary justification for slavery was to
convert the slaves to Christianity and save their souls from eternal
hellfire.


This was also given as the reason for imperialism and genocide
in the "New World".


William Pierce, the neo nazi leader of the National Alliance,
said that he blamed the Christian churches for America's acceptance of
ideas of racial equality, etc. I guess if you want to cherry pick from
history, you can look at what the Vatican (NOT representative of
Christianity) has done around the World and blame it on Christianity,
but that's so shallow that only the massively ignorant could ever
accept it.


Except until Luther "the Vatican" and Christianity were....the same.
Or are we to overlook those first 1500 years?

Hatter

Eastern Orthodox and Coptic Churces might disagree.
Wombat
.
User: "Wombat"

Title: Re: Religion Is Sickness 03 Apr 2007 03:53:37 PM
On 3 Apr, 22:51, "Wombat" <tri...@multiweb.nl> wrote:

On 3 Apr, 22:20, "Hatter" <Hatte...@gmail.com> wrote:





On Apr 3, 3:48 pm, Scotius <wolvz...@mnsi.net> wrote:


On 2 Apr 2007 05:16:29 -0700, "*Anarcissie*" <anarcis...@gmail.com>
wrote:


On Apr 2, 3:26 am, Dan Clore <c...@columbia-center.org> wrote:

Doc Smartass wrote:

From the earliest days Christianity has been opposed to slavery.


Opposed to christains being enslaved, he means. Everyone else was fair
game.


Actually, before racism, the primary justification for slavery was to
convert the slaves to Christianity and save their souls from eternal
hellfire.


This was also given as the reason for imperialism and genocide
in the "New World".


William Pierce, the neo nazi leader of the National Alliance,
said that he blamed the Christian churches for America's acceptance of
ideas of racial equality, etc. I guess if you want to cherry pick from
history, you can look at what the Vatican (NOT representative of
Christianity) has done around the World and blame it on Christianity,
but that's so shallow that only the massively ignorant could ever
accept it.


Except until Luther "the Vatican" and Christianity were....the same.
Or are we to overlook those first 1500 years?


Hatter


Eastern Orthodox and Coptic Churces might disagree.

Wombat

Whoops - Churches
.

User: "Hatter"

Title: Re: Religion Is Sickness 04 Apr 2007 01:37:45 PM
On Apr 3, 4:51 pm, "Wombat" <tri...@multiweb.nl> wrote:

On 3 Apr, 22:20, "Hatter" <Hatte...@gmail.com> wrote:





On Apr 3, 3:48 pm, Scotius <wolvz...@mnsi.net> wrote:


On 2 Apr 2007 05:16:29 -0700, "*Anarcissie*" <anarcis...@gmail.com>
wrote:


On Apr 2, 3:26 am, Dan Clore <c...@columbia-center.org> wrote:

Doc Smartass wrote:

From the earliest days Christianity has been opposed to slavery.


Opposed to christains being enslaved, he means. Everyone else was fair
game.


Actually, before racism, the primary justification for slavery was to
convert the slaves to Christianity and save their souls from eternal
hellfire.


This was also given as the reason for imperialism and genocide
in the "New World".


William Pierce, the neo nazi leader of the National Alliance,
said that he blamed the Christian churches for America's acceptance of
ideas of racial equality, etc. I guess if you want to cherry pick from
history, you can look at what the Vatican (NOT representative of
Christianity) has done around the World and blame it on Christianity,
but that's so shallow that only the massively ignorant could ever
accept it.


Except until Luther "the Vatican" and Christianity were....the same.
Or are we to overlook those first 1500 years?


Hatter


Eastern Orthodox and Coptic Churces might disagree.

Wombat- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

good point
.

User: "brique"

Title: Re: Religion Is Sickness 03 Apr 2007 11:21:53 PM
Wombat <trigby@multiweb.nl> wrote in message
news:1175633483.757577.47490@e65g2000hsc.googlegroups.com...

On 3 Apr, 22:20, "Hatter" <Hatte...@gmail.com> wrote:

On Apr 3, 3:48 pm, Scotius <wolvz...@mnsi.net> wrote:





On 2 Apr 2007 05:16:29 -0700, "*Anarcissie*" <anarcis...@gmail.com>
wrote:


On Apr 2, 3:26 am, Dan Clore <c...@columbia-center.org> wrote:

Doc Smartass wrote:

From the earliest days Christianity has been opposed to

slavery.


Opposed to christains being enslaved, he means. Everyone else was

fair

game.


Actually, before racism, the primary justification for slavery was

to

convert the slaves to Christianity and save their souls from

eternal

hellfire.


This was also given as the reason for imperialism and genocide
in the "New World".


William Pierce, the neo nazi leader of the National Alliance,
said that he blamed the Christian churches for America's acceptance of
ideas of racial equality, etc. I guess if you want to cherry pick from
history, you can look at what the Vatican (NOT representative of
Christianity) has done around the World and blame it on Christianity,
but that's so shallow that only the massively ignorant could ever
accept it.


Except until Luther "the Vatican" and Christianity were....the same.
Or are we to overlook those first 1500 years?

Hatter


Eastern Orthodox and Coptic Churces might disagree.

They are not 'christian' either...it would appear...... what is 'christain'
is a church founded by a monarch to ease his divorce difficulties and seize
the wealth of the existing religous orders...


Wombat

.
User: "Wombat"

Title: Re: Religion Is Sickness 04 Apr 2007 12:08:37 AM
On 4 Apr, 06:21, "brique" <briquen...@freeuk.c0m> wrote:

Wombat<tri...@multiweb.nl> wrote in message

news:1175633483.757577.47490@e65g2000hsc.googlegroups.com...





On 3 Apr, 22:20, "Hatter" <Hatte...@gmail.com> wrote:

On Apr 3, 3:48 pm, Scotius <wolvz...@mnsi.net> wrote:


On 2 Apr 2007 05:16:29 -0700, "*Anarcissie*" <anarcis...@gmail.com>
wrote:


On Apr 2, 3:26 am, Dan Clore <c...@columbia-center.org> wrote:

Doc Smartass wrote:

From the earliest days Christianity has been opposed to

slavery.

Opposed to christains being enslaved, he means. Everyone else was

fair

game.


Actually, before racism, the primary justification for slavery was

to

convert the slaves to Christianity and save their souls from

eternal

hellfire.


This was also given as the reason for imperialism and genocide
in the "New World".


William Pierce, the neo nazi leader of the National Alliance,
said that he blamed the Christian churches for America's acceptance of
ideas of racial equality, etc. I guess if you want to cherry pick from
history, you can look at what the Vatican (NOT representative of
Christianity) has done around the World and blame it on Christianity,
but that's so shallow that only the massively ignorant could ever
accept it.


Except until Luther "the Vatican" and Christianity were....the same.
Or are we to overlook those first 1500 years?


Hatter


Eastern Orthodox and Coptic Churces might disagree.


They are not 'christian' either...it would appear...... what is 'christain'
is a church founded by a monarch to ease his divorce difficulties and seize
the wealth of the existing religous orders...

Please tell me that was tongue in cheek.
Wombat






Wombat- Hide quoted text -


- Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

.
User: "brique"

Title: Re: Religion Is Sickness 04 Apr 2007 11:27:39 AM
Wombat <trigby@multiweb.nl> wrote in message
news:1175663317.851246.67800@w1g2000hsg.googlegroups.com...

On 4 Apr, 06:21, "brique" <briquen...@freeuk.c0m> wrote:

Wombat<tri...@multiweb.nl> wrote in message

news:1175633483.757577.47490@e65g2000hsc.googlegroups.com...





On 3 Apr, 22:20, "Hatter" <Hatte...@gmail.com> wrote:

On Apr 3, 3:48 pm, Scotius <wolvz...@mnsi.net> wrote:


On 2 Apr 2007 05:16:29 -0700, "*Anarcissie*"

<anarcis...@gmail.com>

wrote:


On Apr 2, 3:26 am, Dan Clore <c...@columbia-center.org> wrote:

Doc Smartass wrote:

From the earliest days Christianity has been opposed to

slavery.

Opposed to christains being enslaved, he means. Everyone else

was

fair

game.


Actually, before racism, the primary justification for slavery

was

to

convert the slaves to Christianity and save their souls from

eternal

hellfire.


This was also given as the reason for imperialism and genocide
in the "New World".


William Pierce, the neo nazi leader of the National

Alliance,

said that he blamed the Christian churches for America's

acceptance of

ideas of racial equality, etc. I guess if you want to cherry pick

from

history, you can look at what the Vatican (NOT representative of
Christianity) has done around the World and blame it on

Christianity,

but that's so shallow that only the massively ignorant could ever
accept it.


Except until Luther "the Vatican" and Christianity were....the same.
Or are we to overlook those first 1500 years?


Hatter


Eastern Orthodox and Coptic Churces might disagree.


They are not 'christian' either...it would appear...... what is

'christain'

is a church founded by a monarch to ease his divorce difficulties and

seize

the wealth of the existing religous orders...


Please tell me that was tongue in cheek.

Well, depends on your cheek..... it does seem to be fundie dogma that
'catholicism' is some errant form of christianity, and 'true' christianity
descends from the protestant line ( and is thus the only 'correct'
christianity. So, the copts and greeks and other strange foreign types dont
qualify either)... .. so, there you have it, the church founded by a monarch
as part of his argument with the Vatican over his propensity to divorce his
non-heir producing wives, funded by the siezure of catholic monasteries and
estates is the fountainhead of their 'correct' form of christianity.
Without the state-backed and sponsored Protestant bulwark of England, it
would have been another heresy, along the lines of Catharism, etc and as
soon and thoroughly stamped out...
Now, what if one of his earlier wives had produced the requisite male
heir.... Henry was considered a good catholic monarch once, that is where
the 'Defender of the Faith' title came from..... a real 'what-if' eh?

Wombat






Wombat- Hide quoted text -


- Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -



.
User: "Wombat"

Title: Re: Religion Is Sickness 04 Apr 2007 01:23:31 PM
On 4 Apr, 18:27, "brique" <briquen...@freeuk.c0m> wrote:

Wombat<tri...@multiweb.nl> wrote in message

news:1175663317.851246.67800@w1g2000hsg.googlegroups.com...> On 4 Apr, 06:21, "brique" <briquen...@freeuk.c0m> wrote:

Wombat<tri...@multiweb.nl> wrote in message


news:1175633483.757577.47490@e65g2000hsc.googlegroups.com...


On 3 Apr, 22:20, "Hatter" <Hatte...@gmail.com> wrote:

On Apr 3, 3:48 pm, Scotius <wolvz...@mnsi.net> wrote:


On 2 Apr 2007 05:16:29 -0700, "*Anarcissie*"


<anarcis...@gmail.com>





wrote:


On Apr 2, 3:26 am, Dan Clore <c...@columbia-center.org> wrote:

Doc Smartass wrote:

From the earliest days Christianity has been opposed to

slavery.


Opposed to christains being enslaved, he means. Everyone else

was

fair

game.


Actually, before racism, the primary justification for slavery

was

to

convert the slaves to Christianity and save their souls from

eternal

hellfire.


This was also given as the reason for imperialism and genocide
in the "New World".


William Pierce, the neo nazi leader of the National

Alliance,

said that he blamed the Christian churches for America's

acceptance of

ideas of racial equality, etc. I guess if you want to cherry pick

from

history, you can look at what the Vatican (NOT representative of
Christianity) has done around the World and blame it on

Christianity,

but that's so shallow that only the massively ignorant could ever
accept it.


Except until Luther "the Vatican" and Christianity were....the same.
Or are we to overlook those first 1500 years?


Hatter


Eastern Orthodox and Coptic Churces might disagree.


They are not 'christian' either...it would appear...... what is

'christain'

is a church founded by a monarch to ease his divorce difficulties and

seize

the wealth of the existing religous orders...


Please tell me that was tongue in cheek.


Well, depends on your cheek..... it does seem to be fundie dogma that
'catholicism' is some errant form of christianity, and 'true' christianity
descends from the protestant line ( and is thus the only 'correct'
christianity. So, the copts and greeks and other strange foreign types dont
qualify either)... .. so, there you have it, the church founded by a monarch
as part of his argument with the Vatican over his propensity to divorce his
non-heir producing wives, funded by the siezure of catholic monasteries and
estates is the fountainhead of their 'correct' form of christianity.
Without the state-backed and sponsored Protestant bulwark of England, it
would have been another heresy, along the lines of Catharism, etc and as
soon and thoroughly stamped out...

Now, what if one of his earlier wives had produced the requisite male
heir.... Henry was considered a good catholic monarch once, that is where
the 'Defender of the Faith' title came from..... a real 'what-if' eh?

Not earlier wives - first wife, he divorced Catherine of Aragon after
breaking with the Pope. England really became Protestant under Edward
VI, slid back under Mary I before Elizabeth I completed the
transformation.
Even if England had remained Catholic, the 30 Years War between
(mainly) the Catholics of Southern Europe and the Protestants of
Northern Europe (with His Catholic Majesty the King of France on the
Prod side) ended in a draw, rather than the Counter Reformation
regaining Northern Europe for the Pope.
Wombat
Wombat
.
User: "brique"

Title: Re: Religion Is Sickness 04 Apr 2007 11:30:22 PM
Wombat <trigby@multiweb.nl> wrote in message
news:1175711011.750079.7200@n59g2000hsh.googlegroups.com...

On 4 Apr, 18:27, "brique" <briquen...@freeuk.c0m> wrote:

Wombat<tri...@multiweb.nl> wrote in message

news:1175663317.851246.67800@w1g2000hsg.googlegroups.com...> On 4 Apr,

06:21, "brique" <briquen...@freeuk.c0m> wrote:

Wombat<tri...@multiweb.nl> wrote in message


news:1175633483.757577.47490@e65g2000hsc.googlegroups.com...


On 3 Apr, 22:20, "Hatter" <Hatte...@gmail.com> wrote:

On Apr 3, 3:48 pm, Scotius <wolvz...@mnsi.net> wrote:


On 2 Apr 2007 05:16:29 -0700, "*Anarcissie*"


<anarcis...@gmail.com>





wrote:


On Apr 2, 3:26 am, Dan Clore <c...@columbia-center.org>

wrote:

Doc Smartass wrote:

From the earliest days Christianity has been opposed to

slavery.


Opposed to christains being enslaved, he means. Everyone

else

was

fair

game.


Actually, before racism, the primary justification for

slavery

was

to

convert the slaves to Christianity and save their souls

from

eternal

hellfire.


This was also given as the reason for imperialism and

genocide

in the "New World".


William Pierce, the neo nazi leader of the National

Alliance,

said that he blamed the Christian churches for America's

acceptance of

ideas of racial equality, etc. I guess if you want to cherry

pick

from

history, you can look at what the Vatican (NOT representative

of

Christianity) has done around the World and blame it on

Christianity,

but that's so shallow that only the massively ignorant could

ever

accept it.


Except until Luther "the Vatican" and Christianity were....the

same.

Or are we to overlook those first 1500 years?


Hatter


Eastern Orthodox and Coptic Churces might disagree.


They are not 'christian' either...it would appear...... what is

'christain'

is a church founded by a monarch to ease his divorce difficulties

and

seize

the wealth of the existing religous orders...


Please tell me that was tongue in cheek.


Well, depends on your cheek..... it does seem to be fundie dogma that
'catholicism' is some errant form of christianity, and 'true'

christianity

descends from the protestant line ( and is thus the only 'correct'
christianity. So, the copts and greeks and other strange foreign types

dont

qualify either)... .. so, there you have it, the church founded by a

monarch

as part of his argument with the Vatican over his propensity to divorce

his

non-heir producing wives, funded by the siezure of catholic monasteries

and

estates is the fountainhead of their 'correct' form of christianity.
Without the state-backed and sponsored Protestant bulwark of England,

it

would have been another heresy, along the lines of Catharism, etc and

as

soon and thoroughly stamped out...

Now, what if one of his earlier wives had produced the requisite male
heir.... Henry was considered a good catholic monarch once, that is

where

the 'Defender of the Faith' title came from..... a real 'what-if' eh?


Not earlier wives - first wife, he divorced Catherine of Aragon after
breaking with the Pope. England really became Protestant under Edward
VI, slid back under Mary I before Elizabeth I completed the
transformation.

If wife No 2 had produced, he would have paid penance and been forgiven,
likewise No 3.... six was a bit much even for the Pope to forgive.....
Point being, the monarch who most enbraced protestantism, even if only as a
political tool, was Elizabeth, and if Henry's marriages had produced male
heirs, neither she nor Mary would have ever sat on the throne, a catholic
male heir would have.
Yoiu should not underestimate the impact of Protestant England on European
politics, just consider what the military resources tied up in the Armada
could have done on land supporting Spains Catholic allies, or the treasures
looted from her New World by Drake and company. What of the military support
for Hollands rebellion against Spanish rule? What of the New World? With
Englands colonies as Catholic as Spains and Portugals?

Even if England had remained Catholic, the 30 Years War between
(mainly) the Catholics of Southern Europe and the Protestants of
Northern Europe (with His Catholic Majesty the King of France on the
Prod side) ended in a draw, rather than the Counter Reformation
regaining Northern Europe for the Pope.

I think the political map of Europe would be vastly different, I think
England and France woudl have enjoyed a closer friendly relationship and
Holland and Northern Germany not so. Which would have meant no William and
Mary, and no Hanovers, No Victorians and no Battenburg/Windsors....

Wombat

Wombat


.
User: "Wombat"

Title: Re: Religion Is Sickness 05 Apr 2007 01:51:29 AM
On 5 Apr, 06:30, "brique" <briquen...@freeuk.c0m> wrote:

Wombat<tri...@multiweb.nl> wrote in message

news:1175711011.750079.7200@n59g2000hsh.googlegroups.com...





On 4 Apr, 18:27, "brique" <briquen...@freeuk.c0m> wrote:

Wombat<tri...@multiweb.nl> wrote in message


news:1175663317.851246.67800@w1g2000hsg.googlegroups.com...> On 4 Apr,

06:21, "brique" <briquen...@freeuk.c0m> wrote:

Wombat<tri...@multiweb.nl> wrote in message


news:1175633483.757577.47490@e65g2000hsc.googlegroups.com...


On 3 Apr, 22:20, "Hatter" <Hatte...@gmail.com> wrote:

On Apr 3, 3:48 pm, Scotius <wolvz...@mnsi.net> wrote:


On 2 Apr 2007 05:16:29 -0700, "*Anarcissie*"


<anarcis...@gmail.com>


wrote:

<snip>

They are not 'christian' either...it would appear...... what is

'christain'

is a church founded by a monarch to ease his divorce difficulties

and

seize

the wealth of the existing religous orders...


Please tell me that was tongue in cheek.


Well, depends on your cheek..... it does seem to be fundie dogma that
'catholicism' is some errant form of christianity, and 'true'

christianity

descends from the protestant line ( and is thus the only 'correct'
christianity. So, the copts and greeks and other strange foreign types

dont

qualify either)... .. so, there you have it, the church founded by a

monarch

as part of his argument with the Vatican over his propensity to divorce

his

non-heir producing wives, funded by the siezure of catholic monasteries

and

estates is the fountainhead of their 'correct' form of christianity.
Without the state-backed and sponsored Protestant bulwark of England,

it

would have been another heresy, along the lines of Catharism, etc and

as

soon and thoroughly stamped out...


Now, what if one of his earlier wives had produced the requisite male
heir.... Henry was considered a good catholic monarch once, that is

where

the 'Defender of the Faith' title came from..... a real 'what-if' eh?


Not earlier wives - first wife, he divorced Catherine of Aragon after
breaking with the Pope. England really became Protestant under Edward
VI, slid back under Mary I before Elizabeth I completed the
transformation.


If wife No 2 had produced, he would have paid penance and been forgiven,
likewise No 3.... six was a bit much even for the Pope to forgive.....

Wife no 3, Jane Seymour, produced a son, who became Edward VI. I
didn't see him making up with the Pope then. I would have thought the
Dissolution of the Monasteries didn't help.


Point being, the monarch who most enbraced protestantism, even if only as a
political tool, was Elizabeth, and if Henry's marriages had produced male
heirs, neither she nor Mary would have ever sat on the throne, a catholic
male heir would have.

Again, Protestantism was imposed during the reign of Edward VI, the
SON of Henry VIII.


Yoiu should not underestimate the impact of Protestant England on European
politics, just consider what the military resources tied up in the Armada
could have done on land supporting Spains Catholic allies,

Allies for the Spanish against the Dutch? Who, please.
If the Duke of Parma, one of the best soliers of his time, couldn't
defeat the Dutch, who could. Remember the War of Liberation lasted
100 years.

or the treasures
looted from her New World by Drake and company. What of the military >support
for Hollands rebellion against Spanish rule? What of the New World?
With Englands colonies as Catholic as Spains and Portugals?

Even if England had remained Catholic, the 30 Years War between
(mainly) the Catholics of Southern Europe and the Protestants of
Northern Europe (with His Catholic Majesty the King of France on the
Prod side) ended in a draw, rather than the Counter Reformation
regaining Northern Europe for the Pope.


I think the political map of Europe would be vastly different, I think
England and France woudl have enjoyed a closer friendly relationship and
Holland and Northern Germany not so. Which would have meant no William and
Mary, and no Hanovers, No Victorians and no Battenburg/Windsors....

England's policy re France was always to preserve the Status Quo,
particularly in the 18th Century, which had nothing to do with
religion. Remember the English were fighting the French on and off
from the 11th century until Waterloo in 1815. In the War of the
Spanish Succession we were allied with Catholic Austria against
Catholic France (no religion there either). We did support the Dutch
in their War of Liberation, though how much help that was, I don't
know. My daughter has done that period in History, perhaps she'll
know. We afterwards had several wars with the Dutch and sided with
France against them (Charles II was devious).
Finally, though Drake and co. did some spectacular raids I would
imagine more Inca gold and silver was lost in shipwrecks transporting
it back to Spain, where it eventually wrecked their economy. If you
read any book on the Armada, it was doomed from the start. The whole
point was to transport the Duke of Parma's army from the Spanish
Netherlands to England. He, however, was being blockaded by the Dutch
Inshore fleet. QED
For a good alternate history story read 'The Alteration' by Kingsley
Amis. Luther's thunder was stolen when he was offered the Papacy to
be followed by Thomas More. The Protestants were driven from Europe
to North America, where they founded an alternate USA.
Finally, science languished in the doldrums, even in the 20th century
electricity was thought to be the work of the Devil!
Wombat
.








User: "Al Klein"

Title: Re: Religion Is Sickness 03 Apr 2007 08:18:23 PM
On Tue, 03 Apr 2007 15:48:11 -0400, Scotius <wolvzbro@mnsi.net> wrote:

I guess if you want to cherry pick from
history, you can look at what the Vatican (NOT representative of
Christianity)

The majority isn't representative of the group. Newer math?
.

User: "brique"

Title: Re: Religion Is Sickness 03 Apr 2007 11:18:16 PM
Scotius <wolvzbro@mnsi.net> wrote in message
news:kpb513tq5ggfc4g7luid9k1ln4g2u202i3@4ax.com...

On 2 Apr 2007 05:16:29 -0700, "*Anarcissie*" <anarcissie@gmail.com>
wrote:

On Apr 2, 3:26 am, Dan Clore <c...@columbia-center.org> wrote:

Doc Smartass wrote:

From the earliest days Christianity has been opposed to slavery.


Opposed to christains being enslaved, he means. Everyone else was

fair

game.


Actually, before racism, the primary justification for slavery was to
convert the slaves to Christianity and save their souls from eternal
hellfire.


This was also given as the reason for imperialism and genocide
in the "New World".


William Pierce, the neo nazi leader of the National Alliance,
said that he blamed the Christian churches for America's acceptance of
ideas of racial equality, etc. I guess if you want to cherry pick from
history, you can look at what the Vatican (NOT representative of
Christianity) has done around the World and blame it on Christianity,
but that's so shallow that only the massively ignorant could ever
accept it.

The 'Vatican' _was_ the one and only 'christianity' until the protestant
schism.. so, 75% of christian history can't be dismissed just because the
'The Vatican doesn't represent christianity'... convenient as that may be
for your argument.
.
User: "Mike Henry"

Title: Re: Religion Is Sickness 04 Apr 2007 08:10:24 AM
"brique" <briquenoir@freeuk.c0m> wrote in message
news:1175660338.44783.0@demeter.uk.clara.net...


Scotius <wolvzbro@mnsi.net> wrote in message
news:kpb513tq5ggfc4g7luid9k1ln4g2u202i3@4ax.com...

On 2 Apr 2007 05:16:29 -0700, "*Anarcissie*" <anarcissie@gmail.com>
wrote:

On Apr 2, 3:26 am, Dan Clore <c...@columbia-center.org> wrote:

Doc Smartass wrote:

From the earliest days Christianity has been opposed to slavery.


Opposed to christains being enslaved, he means. Everyone else was

fair

game.


Actually, before racism, the primary justification for slavery was to
convert the slaves to Christianity and save their souls from eternal
hellfire.


This was also given as the reason for imperialism and genocide
in the "New World".


William Pierce, the neo nazi leader of the National Alliance,
said that he blamed the Christian churches for America's acceptance of
ideas of racial equality, etc. I guess if you want to cherry pick from
history, you can look at what the Vatican (NOT representative of
Christianity) has done around the World and blame it on Christianity,
but that's so shallow that only the massively ignorant could ever
accept it.


The 'Vatican' _was_ the one and only 'christianity' until the protestant
schism.. so, 75% of christian history can't be dismissed just because the
'The Vatican doesn't represent christianity'... convenient as that may be
for your argument.


You're forgetting the Orthodox and Coptic churches.
--
Geo. Michael Henry
"And one of the hot topics for me is the number of Christian atheists who
are fully committed to living
according to the teachings of Jesus, but unwilling to accept the idea of
God."
.
User: "brique"

Title: Re: Religion Is Sickness 04 Apr 2007 11:29:19 AM
Mike Henry <gmikeh@nckcn.com> wrote in message
news:46137441_5@newsfeed.slurp.net...

"brique" <briquenoir@freeuk.c0m> wrote in message
news:1175660338.44783.0@demeter.uk.clara.net...


Scotius <wolvzbro@mnsi.net> wrote in message
news:kpb513tq5ggfc4g7luid9k1ln4g2u202i3@4ax.com...

On 2 Apr 2007 05:16:29 -0700, "*Anarcissie*" <anarcissie@gmail.com>
wrote:

On Apr 2, 3:26 am, Dan Clore <c...@columbia-center.org> wrote:

Doc Smartass wrote:

From the earliest days Christianity has been opposed to slavery.


Opposed to christains being enslaved, he means. Everyone else was

fair

game.


Actually, before racism, the primary justification for slavery was

to

convert the slaves to Christianity and save their souls from eternal
hellfire.


This was also given as the reason for imperialism and genocide
in the "New World".


William Pierce, the neo nazi leader of the National Alliance,
said that he blamed the Christian churches for America's acceptance of
ideas of racial equality, etc. I guess if you want to cherry pick from
history, you can look at what the Vatican (NOT representative of
Christianity) has done around the World and blame it on Christianity,
but that's so shallow that only the massively ignorant could ever
accept it.


The 'Vatican' _was_ the one and only 'christianity' until the protestant
schism.. so, 75% of christian history can't be dismissed just because

the

'The Vatican doesn't represent christianity'... convenient as that may

be

for your argument.



You're forgetting the Orthodox and Coptic churches.

True.... mea culpa..... (heheheh).......


--
Geo. Michael Henry
"And one of the hot topics for me is the number of Christian atheists who
are fully committed to living
according to the teachings of Jesus, but unwilling to accept the idea of
God."


.







User: "Roger"

Title: Re: Religion Isn't The Sickness. It's The Cure Of Moral Failure Of Modernism 01 Apr 2007 05:52:39 PM
God told Bush to attack Iraq.
"Sound of Trumpet" <sound_of_trumpet@warpmail.net> wrote in message
news:1175432819.134426.223690@o5g2000hsb.googlegroups.com...

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1805007/posts


Religion isn't the sickness. It's the cure: ur correspondent on the
moral failure of modernism


timesonline.co.uk ^ | February 26, 2007 | Wlliam Rees-Mogg


Posted on 03/22/2007 8:44:07 AM PDT by Longinus


From The Times


February 26, 2007

Religion isn't the sickness. It's the cure
Our correspondent on the moral failure of modernism

Wlliam Rees-Mogg

From the earliest days Christianity has been opposed to slavery. In

his Letter to the Galatians, St Paul wrote: "As many of you that have
been baptised in Christ, have put on Christ. There is neither Jew nor
Greek: there is neither bond nor free: there is neither male nor
female. We were all one in Jesus Christ." Undoubtedly Christians have
compromised with slavery - as with other social evils - in the course
of history, but the orthodox Christian doctrine is one of liberty and
equality.

The Christian belief was the inspiration in William Wilberforce's long
campaign to end the slave trade. His Bill received the Royal Assent on
March 25, 1807, 200 years ago. That was the most important of all the
great reforms of the 19th century; essentially it was a Christian
reform, inspired by the Protestant conversion of Wilberforce himself.
March 25 was the old New Year's Day; it is also the feast of the
Annunciation of Mary, the Mother of Jesus.

We live in an age when modernists regard religion with something
approaching panic. It is like the Devil's attitude to Holy Water.
There was a comic example of Christianophobia in The Sunday Times
yesterday. Michael Portillo, who used himself to be seen in Brompton
Oratory, was hyperventilating at the idea of David Cameron going to
church. "I worry," he wrote, "because men of power who take
instruction from unseen forces are essentially fanatics . . . I would
be more reassured to hear that the Tory leader goes to church because
that is what it takes to get a child into the best of state schools,
not because he is a believer."

Perhaps this neurotic response to Mr Cameron's habit of going to
church reflects Mr Portillo's recognition that religion is again
becoming an important influence on society. Many of the current news
stories show that religion is back in public consciousness; for those
who feel uneasy about religion, that is unwelcome.

Islam is, of course, the alarming religious issue that will not go
away. In the 20th century the world failed to adjust to two major
belief systems, nationalism and Marxism. Now we face a similar global
challenge from Islam, which opposes Judaism in Israel, Hinduism in
India, Buddhism in South East Asia, Christianity in Europe and America
and modernism in the whole advanced world. We certainly cannot say
that all religious influences are benign; al-Qaeda is a religious
cult, but a perverted one.

Religion turned William Wilberforce into a Protestant saint, but
Wahhabism has turned Osama bin Laden into a devil.

The rise of militant Islam in the 21st century is, however, part of a
much broader phenomenon. In the United States there has been the
extraordinary resurgence of fundamentalist Protestantism, sufficiently
strong to win two presidential elections for the Republican Party. In
Britain, an inflow of Catholics from Eastern Europe, particularly
Poland, has revitalised the Roman Catholic Church, which now has the
largest Christian congregation in the country. The worldwide Church of
England has been divided by a battle of moral convictions. All of
these religious movements challenge modernism, that popular mix of
materialism, scientism and political correctness that had seemed to be
carrying all before it.

The modernist attack on religion was based on the victory of science,
and particularly of neo-Darwinism. Yet science was open to the same
challenge as religion; it could explain only half the world. The
scientists, or some of them, sneered at religion for being unable to
explain the developments of nature. Yet science itself was unable to
produce a science-based morality for society. Marxism attempted to
create a scientific social order that ended in monstrous and
bloodthirsty tyranny. Social Darwinism either meant eugenics and the
slaughter of babies who were not thought fit to survive, or it meant
nothing. The Social Darwinism of George Bernard Shaw, or indeed that
of Adolf Hitler, has been rejected by mankind.

The world needs religion to address the moral issues. In the advanced
societies it is these moral issues that now mock us. Europe and North
America are hugely wealthy regions, but they are morally impoverished.
Broken families, drugs, booze, youth gangs, crime, neglect of children
and the old, the sheer boredom of shopaholicism, terrorism, the inner-
city slums, materialism itself, are all the marks of a global society
in decline. Societies can be judged by their care for children. Social
education must start in the family and must have a moral basis.
Children need to be taught to distinguish between right and wrong. A
recent report by Unicef showed Britain as 21st out of 21 advanced
countries in the welfare of children; our national failure is a shame
and a disgrace.

In 19th century England, the revival of Christianity provided the
basis for a century of social reform. The religious revival spread
across all the Christian churches; in the Church of England there was
the Evangelical movement as well as the High Church movement. The
Roman Catholic Church attracted thousands of new converts. The
Methodists and other Nonconformists devoted themselves to the welfare
of the poor and the working class. The Salvation Army took its
trumpets into the pubs and slums and offered a new hope.

The 19th century was an age of social reform based on religious
revival and the Christian faith. The 20th century was an age of
religious decline and of accelerating decline in social cohesion as
well as in faith. "Ill fares the land, to hastening ills a prey/ When
wealth accumulates and men decay."

These are lines from Oliver Goldsmith's moving poem, The Deserted
Village in the 18th century. If they seem to apply to our modern
societies, religion is not the problem; it is the only possible remedy.

.

User: "johac"

Title: Re: Religion Isn't The Sickness. It's The Cure Of Moral Failure Of Modernism 01 Apr 2007 06:49:57 PM
In article <1175432819.134426.223690@o5g2000hsb.googlegroups.com>,
"Sound of Trumpet" <sound_of_trumpet@warpmail.net> wrote:

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1805007/posts


Religion isn't the sickness. It's the cure: ur correspondent on the
moral failure of modernism

So we should all begin the backwards march to the Middle Ages?
--
John #1782
"We should always be disposed to believe that which appears to us to be
white is really black, if the hierarchy of the church so decides."
- Saint Ignatius Loyola (1491-1556) Founder of the Jesuit Order.
.
User: "Roger"

Title: Re: Religion Isn't The Sickness. It's The Cure Of Moral Failure Of Modernism 02 Apr 2007 12:19:05 AM
"johac" <jhachmann@remove.sbcglobal.net> wrote in message
news:jhachmann-677DF9.16495701042007@news.giganews.com...

In article <1175432819.134426.223690@o5g2000hsb.googlegroups.com>,
"Sound of Trumpet" <sound_of_trumpet@warpmail.net> wrote:

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1805007/posts


Religion isn't the sickness. It's the cure: ur correspondent on the
moral failure of modernism


So we should all begin the backwards march to the Middle Ages?

Some want nothing else.
Then they want the world to end.

--
John #1782

"We should always be disposed to believe that which appears to us to be
white is really black, if the hierarchy of the church so decides."

- Saint Ignatius Loyola (1491-1556) Founder of the Jesuit Order.

.
User: "johac"

Title: Re: Religion Isn't The Sickness. It's The Cure Of Moral Failure Of Modernism 03 Apr 2007 01:00:55 AM
In article <46109239$0$9929$4c368faf@roadrunner.com>,
"Roger" <rogerfx@hotmail.com> wrote:

"johac" <jhachmann@remove.sbcglobal.net> wrote in message
news:jhachmann-677DF9.16495701042007@news.giganews.com...

In article <1175432819.134426.223690@o5g2000hsb.googlegroups.com>,
"Sound of Trumpet" <sound_of_trumpet@warpmail.net> wrote:

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1805007/posts


Religion isn't the sickness. It's the cure: ur correspondent on the
moral failure of modernism


So we should all begin the backwards march to the Middle Ages?


Some want nothing else.

Then they want the world to end.

They want the 'Rapture' sooner than later.
--
John #1782
"We should always be disposed to believe that which appears to us to be
white is really black, if the hierarchy of the church so decides."
- Saint Ignatius Loyola (1491-1556) Founder of the Jesuit Order.
.



User: "raven1"

Title: Re: Religion Isn't The Sickness. It's The Cure Of Moral Failure Of Modernism 01 Apr 2007 01:05:50 PM
On 1 Apr 2007 06:06:59 -0700, "Sound of Trumpet"
<sound_of_trumpet@warpmail.net> wrote:

timesonline.co.uk ^ | February 26, 2007 | Wlliam Rees-Mogg


Posted on 03/22/2007 8:44:07 AM PDT by Longinus


From The Times


February 26, 2007

Religion isn't the sickness. It's the cure
Our correspondent on the moral failure of modernism

Wlliam Rees-Mogg

From the earliest days Christianity has been opposed to slavery.

Horseshit. Nowhere does the Bible condemn slavery; and in several
places it not only enjoins it, but states how it is to be practiced.
Before you start nattering on about cultural mores of the time, bear
in mind that such things as adultery and fornication were no less
popular then than they are now, yet the authors of the Bible had no
difficulty in issuing a blanket condemnation of them; apparently
slavery is somehow less offensive or sinful.

In
his Letter to the Galatians, St Paul wrote: "As many of you that have
been baptised in Christ, have put on Christ. There is neither Jew nor
Greek: there is neither bond nor free: there is neither male nor
female.

From the same person who enjoined wives to be submissive unto their
husbands, and forbade women to teach or hold positions of authority...

We were all one in Jesus Christ." Undoubtedly Christians have
compromised with slavery

Excuse me, you dishonest sack of *****? "Compromised"??? Paul himself,
whom you cite just above, also enjoined "slaves, be submissive unto
your masters" (Ephesians 6:5). Where the ***** is the "compromise"
there? Paul doesn't just fail to condemn slavery, he orders slaves to
submit to it. "From the earliest days, Christianity has been opposed
to slavery?" Not fucking likely.
--
"O Sybilli, si ergo
Fortibus es in ero
O Nobili! Themis trux
Sivat sinem? Causen Dux"
.
User: "Al Klein"

Title: Re: Religion Isn't The Sickness. It's The Cure Of Moral Failure Of Modernism 01 Apr 2007 07:27:59 PM
On Sun, 01 Apr 2007 14:05:50 -0400, raven1
<quoththeraven@nevermore.com> wrote:

On 1 Apr 2007 06:06:59 -0700, "Sound of Trumpet"
<sound_of_trumpet@warpmail.net> wrote:

In
his Letter to the Galatians, St Paul wrote: "As many of you that have
been baptised in Christ, have put on Christ. There is neither Jew nor
Greek: there is neither bond nor free: there is neither male nor
female.

From the same person who enjoined wives to be submissive unto their
husbands, and forbade women to teach or hold positions of authority...

He was an early Bush - his message was tailored to his audience, even
if every message flat-out contradicted every other one, or they
flat-out contradicted reality. Remember, "if God commands that black
is white, who are we to question?"
.


User: ""

Title: Re: Religion Isn't The Sickness. It's The Cure Of Moral Failure Of Modernism 02 Apr 2007 11:39:41 PM
On Apr 1, 9:06 pm, "Sound of Trumpet" <sound_of_trum...@warpmail.net>
wrote:

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1805007/posts

Religion isn't the sickness. It's the cure: ur correspondent on the
moral failure of modernism

timesonline.co.uk ^ | February 26, 2007 | Wlliam Rees-Mogg

Posted on 03/22/2007 8:44:07 AM PDT by Longinus

From The Times


February 26, 2007

Religion isn't the sickness. It's the cure
Our correspondent on the moral failure of modernism

Wlliam Rees-Mogg

From the earliest days Christianity has been opposed to slavery. In


his Letter to the Galatians, St Paul wrote: "As many of you that have
been baptised in Christ, have put on Christ. There is neither Jew nor
Greek: there is neither bond nor free: there is neither male nor
female. We were all one in Jesus Christ." Undoubtedly Christians have
compromised with slavery - as with other social evils - in the course
of history, but the orthodox Christian doctrine is one of liberty and
equality.

The Christian belief was the inspiration in William Wilberforce's long
campaign to end the slave trade. His Bill received the Royal Assent on
March 25, 1807, 200 years ago. That was the most important of all the
great reforms of the 19th century; essentially it was a Christian
reform, inspired by the Protestant conversion of Wilberforce himself.
March 25 was the old New Year's Day; it is also the feast of the
Annunciation of Mary, the Mother of Jesus.

We live in an age when modernists regard religion with something
approaching panic. It is like the Devil's attitude to Holy Water.
There was a comic example of Christianophobia in The Sunday Times
yesterday. Michael Portillo, who used himself to be seen in Brompton
Oratory, was hyperventilating at the idea of David Cameron going to
church. "I worry," he wrote, "because men of power who take
instruction from unseen forces are essentially fanatics . . . I would
be more reassured to hear that the Tory leader goes to church because
that is what it takes to get a child into the best of state schools,
not because he is a believer."

Perhaps this neurotic response to Mr Cameron's habit of going to
church reflects Mr Portillo's recognition that religion is again
becoming an important influence on society. Many of the current news
stories show that religion is back in public consciousness; for those
who feel uneasy about religion, that is unwelcome.

Islam is, of course, the alarming religious issue that will not go
away. In the 20th century the world failed to adjust to two major
belief systems, nationalism and Marxism. Now we face a similar global
challenge from Islam, which opposes Judaism in Israel, Hinduism in
India, Buddhism in South East Asia, Christianity in Europe and America
and modernism in the whole advanced world. We certainly cannot say
that all religious influences are benign; al-Qaeda is a religious
cult, but a perverted one.

Religion turned William Wilberforce into a Protestant saint, but
Wahhabism has turned Osama bin Laden into a devil.

The rise of militant Islam in the 21st century is, however, part of a
much broader phenomenon. In the United States there has been the
extraordinary resurgence of fundamentalist Protestantism, sufficiently
strong to win two presidential elections for the Republican Party. In
Britain, an inflow of Catholics from Eastern Europe, particularly
Poland, has revitalised the Roman Catholic Church, which now has the
largest Christian congregation in the country. The worldwide Church of
England has been divided by a battle of moral convictions. All of
these religious movements challenge modernism, that popular mix of
materialism, scientism and political correctness that had seemed to be
carrying all before it.

The modernist attack on religion was based on the victory of science,
and particularly of neo-Darwinism. Yet science was open to the same
challenge as religion; it could explain only half the world. The
scientists, or some of them, sneered at religion for being unable to
explain the developments of nature. Yet science itself was unable to
produce a science-based morality for society. Marxism attempted to
create a scientific social order that ended in monstrous and
bloodthirsty tyranny. Social Darwinism either meant eugenics and the
slaughter of babies who were not thought fit to survive, or it meant
nothing. The Social Darwinism of George Bernard Shaw, or indeed that
of Adolf Hitler, has been rejected by mankind.

The world needs religion to address the moral issues. In the advanced
societies it is these moral issues that now mock us. Europe and North
America are hugely wealthy regions, but they are morally impoverished.
Broken families, drugs, booze, youth gangs, crime, neglect of children
and the old, the sheer boredom of shopaholicism, terrorism, the inner-
city slums, materialism itself, are all the marks of a global society
in decline. Societies can be judged by their care for children. Social
education must start in the family and must have a moral basis.
Children need to be taught to distinguish between right and wrong. A
recent report by Unicef showed Britain as 21st out of 21 advanced
countries in the welfare of children; our national failure is a shame
and a disgrace.

In 19th century England, the revival of Christianity provided the
basis for a century of social reform. The religious revival spread
across all the Christian churches; in the Church of England there was
the Evangelical movement as well as the High Church movement. The
Roman Catholic Church attracted thousands of new converts. The
Methodists and other Nonconformists devoted themselves to the welfare
of the poor and the working class. The Salvation Army took its
trumpets into the pubs and slums and offered a new hope.

The 19th century was an age of social reform based on religious
revival and the Christian faith. The 20th century was an age of
religious decline and of accelerating decline in social cohesion as
well as in faith. "Ill fares the land, to hastening ills a prey/ When
wealth accumulates and men decay."

These are lines from Oliver Goldsmith's moving poem, The Deserted
Village in the 18th century. If they seem to apply to our modern
societies, religion is not the problem; it is the only possible remedy.

Who are you to judge"That Christians are not evil...."?
1). Christian started the Crusade and slaughtered innocent non-
believers....may I suggest you may be one of the descendent of the
killed...
2). Christian enslave the Africans........and yet I pity all the Afro-
Americans who turned Christian....
3). Christians killed all the Red Indians in North and South America
to take their home lands........
4). You know how many territory that Christians took with
force.....America, Australia, New Zealand, Falken Island, Guam,
Gilbralter, Hong Kong, etc etc
5). Now the US is taking Afghanistan, Iraq....for their oil
6). Next.........it will happen
Yap
.

User: "Ray Fischer"

Title: Re: Religion Isn't The Sickness. It's The Cure Of Moral Failure Of Modernism 01 Apr 2007 12:36:13 PM
Sound of Trumpet <sound_of_trumpet@warpmail.net> wrote:

Religion isn't the sickness. It's the cure: ur correspondent on the
moral failure of modernism

This message sponsored by your friendly chapter of the Taliban.

Wlliam Rees-Mogg

From the earliest days Christianity has been opposed to slavery.

That's a complete lie, of course.
--
Ray Fischer
rfischer@sonic.net
.
User: ""

Title: Religion is Sickness. 01 Apr 2007 04:51:54 PM
On Apr 1, 1:36 pm,
(Ray Fischer) wrote:

Sound of Trumpet <sound_of_trum...@warpmail.net> wrote:

Religion isn't the sickness. It's the cure: ur correspondent on the
moral failure of modernism


This message sponsored by your friendly chapter of the Taliban.

Wlliam Rees-Mogg


From the earliest days Christianity has been opposed to slavery.


That's a complete lie, of course.

Standard operating procedure for the Religious Right.
.



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