| Topic: |
Religions > Atheism |
| User: |
"Martin Willett" |
| Date: |
23 Jul 2005 02:39:01 PM |
| Object: |
Religions that never die |
Religions die. Some religions die out totally and once they have been
buried for a few generations there is no longer any protection given to
them. Dead religions are myths and legends, obviously believed only by
misguided and superstitious primitives, we know better. Pretty pyramids
but what was all that about the Jackal headed god, give me a break,
while of course believing in an elephant headed god is perfectly sane,
we must respect people's sincerely held religions. <snort>.
When religions die they are taken over by more powerful religions. The
things that make religions more powerful are:
1] Weight of numbers. A conquering people marches into to your country
and outnumbers you twenty to one you are inclined to believe them when
they say god is on their side. And if you don't they may just kill you
and say their god made them do it.
2] Material culture. When conquering people arrive with magical
technology far in advance of yours it becomes a little difficult to
persuade them to accept that your god is better than their god. Never in
recorded history has an advanced nation taken up the religion of a more
primitive culture it has subdued, coincidence?
3] Smarter religion. Religions evolve with time, they evolve to survive.
The more they are challenged the stronger they become. A tribal religion
in a conservative and isolated culture doesn't stand a chance when it
bumps against a religion that has come through a few dozen wars,
conquests, revolutions and centuries of scientific discovery.
It is important to note that people have no way of knowing truth or
feeling it directly. Truth is irrelevant for the spread of religions.
Any idea can feel true. Feeling true is a meaningless concept. You can
be fairly confident that people have felt their own story and
explanation of the universe is true throughout all eras and societies;
obviously that cannot be because they all were true (unless you define
true in a very strange way), a more plausible explanation is that the
human mind has a large capacity for faith and belief, and truth is
irrelevant to that. If you have a faith and a belief in some ultimate
truth you know how strong that feeling can be, all I ask you to do is to
ponder how many other people equally hold other "self evident truths"
that cannot be true if yours is true and vice versa. Feeling truth is
obviously of no value at all in convincing others, unless you can
persuade them to accept your 'truth' over their own.
In addition some ideas are simply better suited to survival as religions
than others because they have greater appeal and enhance the chances of
spreading the religion or the vigour with which it is held.
Better, more contagious, ideas include:
1] Monotheism.
The KISS principle; Keep It Simple, Stupid.
It is much harder to convince people that there are multiple gods with
different powers compared to the much simpler idea that there is only
one god and his name is the registered trade mark of your church.
2] Survival after death.
Death is the great certainty, how much better if you could offer people
a certainty beyond the certainty? Everlasting life or rebirth under
better circumstances gives people a bribe of great value, and it costs
nothing to write cheques against this account as nobody ever comes back
to cash them. Pie in the sky. This is a better scam than selling land
when the tide is out.
3] The Big Lie.
This is the classic. Only by believing in the doctrine of the church can
people be good people. People who don't believe the stories are bad
people, not to be trusted.
This may or may not be coupled with
4] The Big Stick.
Death and damnation to the unbelievers. Can you afford to take the
chance? Think about it, all they ask is a tenth of everything you earn,
one seventh of your life, constant devotion and perhaps a bequest on
your death and in return they can ensure you don't get kebabed for all
eternity, what a bargain!
5] It's in the Book.
A great big book written a long time ago and full of ambiguous phrases
that sound a bit clumsy but probably read better in the original
language, or perhaps they didn't. But either way all the truth is there
in The Book. The book helps because it has ambiguous answers and one of
its best features is the back cover, it is a closed book, nothing can be
added, the last word of god has already been written so don't you dare
add anything new. (Except prayers, hymns, services, dogmas, dress codes,
revisions, deletions, catechisms, etc., etc.) The book always gives
people a point to which they can retreat, regroup and advance again if
one church or cult is foundering you can always strip away everything
back to the book and rejuvenate your religion with the burning intensity
of revival. Unfortunately every time you try to do such a thing you
cause as many problems as you solve, but never mind, god made you do it,
and you can prove it, quote the book at them if they doubt you, it is a
big enough book you are sure to find a bit that sounds good.
6] This stuff works for everybody.
This point is where Judaism shows its lack of competitive edge when
compared to Christianity and Islam. How can you convert people to
believe in your god if your god is a tribal god? On this score Islam is
a competitive religion, especially if you are a man.
7] Don't Worry, be Happy!
A great selling point for a religion is to show people who believe in it
being happy, rich or ideally both. Nothing succeeds like success.
Positive thinking does make people feel better. Optimism is a delusion
and even the average state of the human psyche is more positive than the
facts allow, but positive thinking, even mindless over-optimism, does
make people happier and more successful. Very infuriating but true.
Believe in the lie and be happier and richer. The graveyards of the
world are full of happy dead people who knew nothing bad would ever
happen to them, for most of their life they were largely right.
8] Live and be seen to believe.
Crosses, fish on your bumper, turbans, veils, beards and ringlets,
stars, crescent moons, dreadlocks. Badges help show other people what
you believe and keep you visible.
9] Taboos.
If you can't eat the same food as the infidel how can you share a meal
with him? If you can't share a meal how long can you spend with him?
Taboos on diet keep the faithful apart from contagion from the infidels.
If you don't spend time with them you don't get to know them, which is
handy when your god (through his holy spokesman) asks you to put their
women and children to the sword.
As time goes on religions get better at defending themselves against
attack. I believe that the major religions that we have now
(Christianity, Islam, Judaism, Buddhism and Hinduism) will never die.
They will continue as at least a sizeable minority view for as long as
this species exists.
Sorry if that depresses you.
--
Martin Willett
http://mwillett.org
.
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| User: "Niels van der Linden" |
|
| Title: Re: Religions that never die |
23 Jul 2005 04:29:45 PM |
|
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Religions die. Some religions die out totally and once they have been
buried for a few generations there is no longer any protection given to
them. Dead religions are myths and legends, obviously believed only by
misguided and superstitious primitives, we know better. Pretty pyramids
but what was all that about the Jackal headed god, give me a break, while
of course believing in an elephant headed god is perfectly sane, we must
respect people's sincerely held religions. <snort>.
When religions die they are taken over by more powerful religions. The
things that make religions more powerful are:
1] Weight of numbers. A conquering people marches into to your country and
outnumbers you twenty to one you are inclined to believe them when they
say god is on their side. And if you don't they may just kill you and say
their god made them do it.
2] Material culture. When conquering people arrive with magical technology
far in advance of yours it becomes a little difficult to persuade them to
accept that your god is better than their god. Never in recorded history
has an advanced nation taken up the religion of a more primitive culture
it has subdued, coincidence?
3] Smarter religion. Religions evolve with time, they evolve to survive.
The more they are challenged the stronger they become. A tribal religion
in a conservative and isolated culture doesn't stand a chance when it
bumps against a religion that has come through a few dozen wars,
conquests, revolutions and centuries of scientific discovery.
It is important to note that people have no way of knowing truth or
feeling it directly. Truth is irrelevant for the spread of religions. Any
idea can feel true. Feeling true is a meaningless concept. You can be
fairly confident that people have felt their own story and explanation of
the universe is true throughout all eras and societies; obviously that
cannot be because they all were true (unless you define true in a very
strange way), a more plausible explanation is that the human mind has a
large capacity for faith and belief, and truth is irrelevant to that. If
you have a faith and a belief in some ultimate truth you know how strong
that feeling can be, all I ask you to do is to ponder how many other
people equally hold other "self evident truths" that cannot be true if
yours is true and vice versa. Feeling truth is obviously of no value at
all in convincing others, unless you can persuade them to accept your
'truth' over their own.
In addition some ideas are simply better suited to survival as religions
than others because they have greater appeal and enhance the chances of
spreading the religion or the vigour with which it is held.
Better, more contagious, ideas include:
1] Monotheism.
The KISS principle; Keep It Simple, Stupid.
It is much harder to convince people that there are multiple gods with
different powers compared to the much simpler idea that there is only one
god and his name is the registered trade mark of your church.
2] Survival after death.
Death is the great certainty, how much better if you could offer people a
certainty beyond the certainty? Everlasting life or rebirth under better
circumstances gives people a bribe of great value, and it costs nothing to
write cheques against this account as nobody ever comes back to cash them.
Pie in the sky. This is a better scam than selling land when the tide is
out.
3] The Big Lie.
This is the classic. Only by believing in the doctrine of the church can
people be good people. People who don't believe the stories are bad
people, not to be trusted.
This may or may not be coupled with
4] The Big Stick.
Death and damnation to the unbelievers. Can you afford to take the chance?
Think about it, all they ask is a tenth of everything you earn, one
seventh of your life, constant devotion and perhaps a bequest on your
death and in return they can ensure you don't get kebabed for all
eternity, what a bargain!
5] It's in the Book.
A great big book written a long time ago and full of ambiguous phrases
that sound a bit clumsy but probably read better in the original language,
or perhaps they didn't. But either way all the truth is there in The Book.
The book helps because it has ambiguous answers and one of its best
features is the back cover, it is a closed book, nothing can be added, the
last word of god has already been written so don't you dare add anything
new. (Except prayers, hymns, services, dogmas, dress codes, revisions,
deletions, catechisms, etc., etc.) The book always gives people a point to
which they can retreat, regroup and advance again if one church or cult is
foundering you can always strip away everything back to the book and
rejuvenate your religion with the burning intensity of revival.
Unfortunately every time you try to do such a thing you cause as many
problems as you solve, but never mind, god made you do it, and you can
prove it, quote the book at them if they doubt you, it is a big enough
book you are sure to find a bit that sounds good.
6] This stuff works for everybody.
This point is where Judaism shows its lack of competitive edge when
compared to Christianity and Islam. How can you convert people to believe
in your god if your god is a tribal god? On this score Islam is a
competitive religion, especially if you are a man.
7] Don't Worry, be Happy!
A great selling point for a religion is to show people who believe in it
being happy, rich or ideally both. Nothing succeeds like success. Positive
thinking does make people feel better. Optimism is a delusion and even the
average state of the human psyche is more positive than the facts allow,
but positive thinking, even mindless over-optimism, does make people
happier and more successful. Very infuriating but true. Believe in the lie
and be happier and richer. The graveyards of the world are full of happy
dead people who knew nothing bad would ever happen to them, for most of
their life they were largely right.
8] Live and be seen to believe.
Crosses, fish on your bumper, turbans, veils, beards and ringlets, stars,
crescent moons, dreadlocks. Badges help show other people what you believe
and keep you visible.
9] Taboos.
If you can't eat the same food as the infidel how can you share a meal
with him? If you can't share a meal how long can you spend with him?
Taboos on diet keep the faithful apart from contagion from the infidels.
If you don't spend time with them you don't get to know them, which is
handy when your god (through his holy spokesman) asks you to put their
women and children to the sword.
Very nicely done. Those are some good examples of evolution of religion.
As time goes on religions get better at defending themselves against
attack. I believe that the major religions that we have now (Christianity,
Islam, Judaism, Buddhism and Hinduism) will never die. They will continue
as at least a sizeable minority view for as long as this species exists.
I'm not sure I agree with this. Today we have religions being replaced by
(varying degrees of) sanity, where it used to be religion replaced by
religion.
.
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| User: "Martin Willett" |
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| Title: Re: Religions that never die |
24 Jul 2005 02:40:47 AM |
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Niels van der Linden wrote:
As time goes on religions get better at defending themselves against
attack. I believe that the major religions that we have now (Christianity,
Islam, Judaism, Buddhism and Hinduism) will never die. They will continue
as at least a sizeable minority view for as long as this species exists.
I'm not sure I agree with this. Today we have religions being replaced by
(varying degrees of) sanity, where it used to be religion replaced by
religion.
Which countries have abandoned religion?
Please demonstrate the process you would like to see is actually
happening before you conclude that its triumph is inevitable.
There are countries where religion is no longer dominant but I am not
aware of anywhere that is free of religion. Religion is very good at
hanging on and it will get better at it with practice.
--
Martin Willett
http://mwillett.org
.
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| User: "The Last Church" |
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| Title: Re: Religions that never die |
24 Jul 2005 03:49:06 PM |
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On Sat, 23 Jul 2005 23:29:45 +0200, "Niels van der Linden"
<n.f.l.vanderlinden@student.utwente.nl> wrote:
<I'm not sure I agree with this. Today we have religions being replaced by
<(varying degrees of) sanity, where it used to be religion replaced by
<religion.
Satan does have ministers plying their ungodly trade in the
Church (2Cor.11) we should expect them to mix the pure water of the
word with error, not merely to tell falsehoods. Otherwise, they could
deceive no one. #1. There is and never was a Satan.
They also embrace doctrines which are contrary to revealed truth.
Christ:
" Nothing is revealed to one that is not revealed to all."
The false teacher is profane in his spirit; he cannot discern
the very great difference between what is truly of God and what is
not.
The decisive test of a true man of God is not whether he often
speaks the truth, but whether he speaks only the truth. That is the
measure of a man, and it is the measure we must use to judge the
writings of these "fathers" of the Christian faith.
We, therefore, do not at all deny that there is truth to be
found in the writings of Christianity's church fathers, for we should
expect to find the truth in their writings whether they were from God
or not.
ANTI-SEMITISM
The animosity historically shown to the Jews by Christianity is
disgraceful, unworthy of Christ, and is one of the sure earmarks of
fleshly arrogance and false religion. A condescending or sarcastic
attitude toward the Jews is certainly one mark of a false teacher.
CEREMONY
The faith which Jesus created among men by the Spirit, excluded
any ceremonial form. There is no ceremony in the kingdom of God. That
this is contrary to the church's behavior is undeniable (e.g.
offering sacrifices at the temple ; but that is, in fact, the point.
The teachings of Christ excluded every religious ceremony known to
man, including those of the Law of Moses.
Fortunately, for us who are seeking to know who has heard from
God and who has not, this simple fact has escaped Christianity's
notice from its inception, making it easy to spot a false teacher by
his practice of any ceremony whatsoever. Any man's endorsement to the
church of the performance of any religious ritual is a positive
indication that he is deluded; he is not from Jesus.
Who has heard from God? (No one)
Christ: " No man has ever heard the voice
of God nor seen his form, nor will there ever."
Any endorsement of such worldly political methods, such as a
congregation "voting" on its ministers, is another identifier of false
teachers.
PERVERSION OF THE SCRIPTURES
Any blatant contradiction of truth, propagation of ungodly
ideas, or twisting of the Scriptures to suit a purpose, obviously is
evidence enough that a man is not from Jesus.
POLITICS
Christianity is at its heart a worldly political institution,
using religion as it's cover. It was born in Rome's lap, and inherited
that empire's control over a vast array of peoples and nations. Any
entanglement in the political affairs of this life is evidence of
carnal desire for power over people, and lust for authority and
control over others is a mark of a false teacher.
SUPERSTITION
"we have followed cunningly devised fables" sure indications of a
mind that cannot differentiate between the true and untrue.
TRINITARIAN & OTHER ISSUES
There was no doctrine of a "trinity" expressed in most of the
writings of the fathers of Christianity, principally because there is
no doctrine of a trinity expressed in the Scriptures they read.
We trust this study will enlighten those who sincerely want the
truth. Are searching for it?
..
--Nobody Jones
TLC
If you can`t take it with you why collect it
in the first place? It Riddles,, now think!
What is the answer?
.
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| User: "Niels van der Linden" |
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| Title: Re: Religions that never die |
24 Jul 2005 08:06:30 PM |
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<I'm not sure I agree with this. Today we have religions being replaced by
<(varying degrees of) sanity, where it used to be religion replaced by
<religion.
Satan [..]
[..] searching for it?
Was that a reply or just a random collection of texts?
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| User: "Ben Goren" |
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| Title: Re: Religions that never die |
23 Jul 2005 04:25:52 PM |
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Martin Willett wrote:
Never in recorded history has an advanced nation taken up
the religion of a more primitive culture it has subdued,
coincidence?
You make many excellent points, but this is not one of them. The
Roman pagan religion headed by Jupiter was no more than a
re-branding of the Greek pagan religion headed by Zeus. Further,
Christianity is a corrupted re-packaging of Judaism that didn't
really take off until the Romans adopted it. Choice of religion is
like fashion, really. It's all a matter of taste.
Otherwise, like I said, nice post.
Cheers,
b&
--
BAAWA Knight of Blasphemy
All but God can prove this sentence true.
----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==----
http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups
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| User: "Martin Willett" |
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| Title: Re: Religions that never die |
24 Jul 2005 02:33:41 AM |
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Ben Goren wrote:
Martin Willett wrote:
Never in recorded history has an advanced nation taken up
the religion of a more primitive culture it has subdued,
coincidence?
You make many excellent points, but this is not one of them. The
Roman pagan religion headed by Jupiter was no more than a
re-branding of the Greek pagan religion headed by Zeus. Further,
Christianity is a corrupted re-packaging of Judaism that didn't
really take off until the Romans adopted it. Choice of religion is
like fashion, really. It's all a matter of taste.
Otherwise, like I said, nice post.
On the contrary I think this point could be amplified much further.
Never has a hunter-gatherer people's religion been taken up by farmers
despite thousands of interactions between people at that level.
Religious culture never flows uphill from primitive conquered people to
their conquerors. It only ever flows from the advanced to the primitive
or from one people to another at broadly the same level of material
culture e.g. Greece to Rome.
Christianity is an exception, but it is one which proves the rule.
Christianity was not taken up by the people of Rome until it was
imposed, it was a minority cult which was adopted by the leadership
because the leadership found it useful. It was a more sophisticated and
evolved religion than the ones it replaced. It did not come from a more
advanced culture that is true, but neither did it come from a thoroughly
backward culture either. Christianity did not conquer the Roman Empire
it was imposed by the Emperor.
The British Empire pitted Christianity against hundreds of different
religions from across the world. How many British Christians converted?
The answer is a vanishingly small number with the exception of some of
the earliest British men who went into Muslim areas of India. The reason
they converted was that they found the material culture they came across
equal to and in some ways superior to the one they had left and they
encountered a religion as sophisticated as the one they (at least
nominally) believed in. But the British largely turned their noses up at
the concept of polytheism and so very few converted to Hinduism and the
idea of taking African religions seriously would have been considered
simply absurd: they were primitive people with a primitive religion,
they were to be taught, not learned from.
How many missionaries have set off from the Great Plains of North
America to convert the Christians on the East Coast?
How many Aboriginal Australians have sent missionaries to convert
Christians?
How many head hunters from the jungles of the Amazon or New Guinea sent
missionaries out to teach their religions? Why is the question absurd?
We know that it never works that way around. We know that primitive
tribes do not suck in religion or export it, they get stomped on and
then missionaries move in. That is the way it works. Primitive people
have tribal religions that belong to the tribe and nobody in the tribe
particularly wants anybody outside the tribe to believe in. The Hebrews
had such a religion for centuries. The concept of spreading a religion
to other people evolved slowly. At first it was confined within empires
but the Hellenization of a huge area of western Asia in the wake of
Alexander the Great made it possible for religions to consider the
possibility of exporting themselves independently of armies of conquest
for the first time. Pagan mystery religions expanded in this new way,
Christianity followed that recently established pattern into the area
controlled by Rome.
--
Martin Willett
http://mwillett.org
.
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| User: "Chris H. Fleming" |
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| Title: Re: Religions that never die |
24 Jul 2005 05:59:52 AM |
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Martin Willett wrote:
Ben Goren wrote:
Martin Willett wrote:
Never in recorded history has an advanced nation taken up
the religion of a more primitive culture it has subdued,
coincidence?
You make many excellent points, but this is not one of them. The
Roman pagan religion headed by Jupiter was no more than a
re-branding of the Greek pagan religion headed by Zeus. Further,
Christianity is a corrupted re-packaging of Judaism that didn't
really take off until the Romans adopted it. Choice of religion is
like fashion, really. It's all a matter of taste.
Otherwise, like I said, nice post.
On the contrary I think this point could be amplified much further.
Never has a hunter-gatherer people's religion been taken up by farmers
despite thousands of interactions between people at that level.
Religious culture never flows uphill from primitive conquered people to
their conquerors. It only ever flows from the advanced to the primitive
or from one people to another at broadly the same level of material
culture e.g. Greece to Rome.
Christianity is an exception, but it is one which proves the rule.
Christianity was not taken up by the people of Rome until it was
imposed, it was a minority cult which was adopted by the leadership
because the leadership found it useful. It was a more sophisticated and
evolved religion than the ones it replaced. It did not come from a more
advanced culture that is true, but neither did it come from a thoroughly
backward culture either. Christianity did not conquer the Roman Empire
it was imposed by the Emperor.
(I)
But also, Christianity wasn't Christianity 'till the Romans made it so.
The very tenants of Christianity were not put into stone untill the
Council of Nicea in 325 as wished by Constantine the second father of
Christianity. Christianity was just a power move for Constantine. And
early Roman Christianity was very similar to preexisting Roman
religion. Early portraits of Jesus were of a man with short blonde
hair, no beard, and a halo of sun light - exactly the same as Apollo.
Jesus was basically another roman sun god/ceaser god. Christians
worship on SUNday not on the sabbath!
Christianity draws upon Judaism, but I don't think it's fair to call it
a Jewish religion. Because it is a very unJewish religion and Jews
rarely convert to it. In the mind of a Jew or Moslem, a man cannot be a
god period, no if's, and's, or but's. The Jewish messiah will NEVER be
a god!
It is my understanding that Christianity starts with the mythology of
Mystra applied over a background of Judaism, where Jesus is given a
modern Rabbidic and Gnostic message. The Roman church adds to this and
distils it into what it is today. For instance the "let he who is
without sin cast the first stone" is not an original part of the bible.
That verse simply is not found in the oldest copies of the gospels, but
it is an integral part of Christian ethics. The Roman Church really
grew Christianity into what it is today. And with every new
"translation" of the bible (and catechism for Catholics (and a whole
extra fucking book for LDS)), Christianity slowly grows into something
different.
If a religion is not allowed to grow and change then it will die. I
firmly believe this. I firmly believe that Fundamentalism is destroying
Protestantism in America. And I firmly believe that conservative popes
and archbishops are destroying Catholicism in Europe and America.
(II)
Wicca is a much better counterexample. Wicca is more primitive and the
adopting culture is more advanced.
The British Empire pitted Christianity against hundreds of different
religions from across the world. How many British Christians converted?
The answer is a vanishingly small number with the exception of some of
the earliest British men who went into Muslim areas of India. The reason
they converted was that they found the material culture they came across
equal to and in some ways superior to the one they had left and they
encountered a religion as sophisticated as the one they (at least
nominally) believed in. But the British largely turned their noses up at
the concept of polytheism and so very few converted to Hinduism and the
idea of taking African religions seriously would have been considered
simply absurd: they were primitive people with a primitive religion,
they were to be taught, not learned from.
How many missionaries have set off from the Great Plains of North
America to convert the Christians on the East Coast?
How many Aboriginal Australians have sent missionaries to convert
Christians?
How many head hunters from the jungles of the Amazon or New Guinea sent
missionaries out to teach their religions? Why is the question absurd?
We know that it never works that way around. We know that primitive
tribes do not suck in religion or export it, they get stomped on and
then missionaries move in. That is the way it works. Primitive people
have tribal religions that belong to the tribe and nobody in the tribe
particularly wants anybody outside the tribe to believe in. The Hebrews
had such a religion for centuries. The concept of spreading a religion
to other people evolved slowly. At first it was confined within empires
but the Hellenization of a huge area of western Asia in the wake of
Alexander the Great made it possible for religions to consider the
possibility of exporting themselves independently of armies of conquest
for the first time. Pagan mystery religions expanded in this new way,
Christianity followed that recently established pattern into the area
controlled by Rome.
--
Martin Willett
http://mwillett.org
.
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| User: "Martin Willett" |
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| Title: Re: Religions that never die |
24 Jul 2005 12:58:35 PM |
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|
Chris H. Fleming wrote:
Martin Willett wrote:
Ben Goren wrote:
Martin Willett wrote:
Never in recorded history has an advanced nation taken up
the religion of a more primitive culture it has subdued,
coincidence?
You make many excellent points, but this is not one of them. The
Roman pagan religion headed by Jupiter was no more than a
re-branding of the Greek pagan religion headed by Zeus. Further,
Christianity is a corrupted re-packaging of Judaism that didn't
really take off until the Romans adopted it. Choice of religion is
like fashion, really. It's all a matter of taste.
Otherwise, like I said, nice post.
On the contrary I think this point could be amplified much further.
Never has a hunter-gatherer people's religion been taken up by farmers
despite thousands of interactions between people at that level.
Religious culture never flows uphill from primitive conquered people to
their conquerors. It only ever flows from the advanced to the primitive
or from one people to another at broadly the same level of material
culture e.g. Greece to Rome.
Christianity is an exception, but it is one which proves the rule.
Christianity was not taken up by the people of Rome until it was
imposed, it was a minority cult which was adopted by the leadership
because the leadership found it useful. It was a more sophisticated and
evolved religion than the ones it replaced. It did not come from a more
advanced culture that is true, but neither did it come from a thoroughly
backward culture either. Christianity did not conquer the Roman Empire
it was imposed by the Emperor.
(I)
But also, Christianity wasn't Christianity 'till the Romans made it so.
The very tenants of Christianity were not put into stone untill the
Council of Nicea in 325 as wished by Constantine the second father of
Christianity. Christianity was just a power move for Constantine. And
early Roman Christianity was very similar to preexisting Roman
religion. Early portraits of Jesus were of a man with short blonde
hair, no beard, and a halo of sun light - exactly the same as Apollo.
Jesus was basically another roman sun god/ceaser god. Christians
worship on SUNday not on the sabbath!
Christianity draws upon Judaism, but I don't think it's fair to call it
a Jewish religion. Because it is a very unJewish religion and Jews
rarely convert to it. In the mind of a Jew or Moslem, a man cannot be a
god period, no if's, and's, or but's. The Jewish messiah will NEVER be
a god!
It is my understanding that Christianity starts with the mythology of
Mystra applied over a background of Judaism, where Jesus is given a
modern Rabbidic and Gnostic message. The Roman church adds to this and
distils it into what it is today. For instance the "let he who is
without sin cast the first stone" is not an original part of the bible.
That verse simply is not found in the oldest copies of the gospels, but
it is an integral part of Christian ethics. The Roman Church really
grew Christianity into what it is today. And with every new
"translation" of the bible (and catechism for Catholics (and a whole
extra fucking book for LDS)), Christianity slowly grows into something
different.
If a religion is not allowed to grow and change then it will die. I
firmly believe this. I firmly believe that Fundamentalism is destroying
Protestantism in America. And I firmly believe that conservative popes
and archbishops are destroying Catholicism in Europe and America.
That's a funny kind of death. Some people are leaving the Protestant and
Catholic churches and their moral standing among outsiders is dropping
but they are hardly imploding or collapsing. As time goes on the hard
core of the churches will get harder.
In America Protestantism will never die because it has the capacity to
split, reform and revive.
(II)
Wicca is a much better counterexample. Wicca is more primitive and the
adopting culture is more advanced.
Wicca isn't a mass religion it is a series of loosely interconnected
neuroses: a shared mid-life crisis. Wicca has not survived in the
hedgerows and then reemerged in more tolerant times it has been
reconstructed as artificially and deliberately as the dead language of
ancient Hebrew was "brought back".
Wicca is as culturally advanced as the modern health food shop that
takes Mastercard for dried aduki beans.
--
Martin Willett
http://mwillett.org
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| User: "kC" |
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| Title: Re: Religions that never die |
24 Jul 2005 04:25:18 PM |
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"Martin Willett" <mwillett.org@invalid.invalid> wrote in message
news:3ki36fFucrafU1@individual.net...
Wicca isn't a mass religion it is a series of loosely interconnected
neuroses: a shared mid-life crisis. ...
From this, it becomes obvious that you have nothing intelligent to say.
<<plonk>>
--
--
http://www.myspace.com/2gods
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| User: "Martin Willett" |
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| Title: Re: Religions that never die |
25 Jul 2005 01:01:08 AM |
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kC wrote:
"Martin Willett" <mwillett.org@invalid.invalid> wrote in message
news:3ki36fFucrafU1@individual.net...
Wicca isn't a mass religion it is a series of loosely interconnected
neuroses: a shared mid-life crisis. ...
From this, it becomes obvious that you have nothing intelligent to say.
<<plonk>>
That's rather pathetic.
--
Martin Willett
http://mwillett.org
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| User: "The Last Church" |
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| Title: Re: Religions that never die |
26 Jul 2005 02:47:27 AM |
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On Mon, 25 Jul 2005 07:01:08 +0100, Martin Willett
<mwillett.org@invalid.invalid> wrote:
<>>Wicca isn't a mass religion it is a series of loosely interconnected
<>>neuroses: a shared mid-life crisis. ...
<>>I am rather pathetic.
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| User: "Jani" |
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| Title: Re: Religions that never die |
24 Jul 2005 01:24:07 PM |
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"Martin Willett" <mwillett.org@invalid.invalid> wrote in message
news:3ki36fFucrafU1@individual.net...
Chris H. Fleming wrote:
[]
Wicca is a much better counterexample. Wicca is more primitive and the
adopting culture is more advanced.
It depends on your idea of "advanced". Is a culture which destroys
ecosystems and resources more "advanced" than one which doesn't?
Wicca isn't a mass religion it is a series of loosely interconnected
neuroses: a shared mid-life crisis. Wicca has not survived in the
hedgerows and then reemerged in more tolerant times it has been
reconstructed as artificially and deliberately as the dead language of
ancient Hebrew was "brought back".
Not quite. Wicca wasn't reconstructed from a single, defunct belief system:
it's a new construct which draws on a number of sources, some of which are
older than others. And anything which survived in the hedgerows forms a very
small element of it.
Jani
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| User: "Chris H. Fleming" |
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| Title: Re: Religions that never die |
26 Jul 2005 03:40:28 AM |
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Martin Willett wrote:
Chris H. Fleming wrote:
Martin Willett wrote:
Ben Goren wrote:
Martin Willett wrote:
Never in recorded history has an advanced nation taken up
the religion of a more primitive culture it has subdued,
coincidence?
You make many excellent points, but this is not one of them. The
Roman pagan religion headed by Jupiter was no more than a
re-branding of the Greek pagan religion headed by Zeus. Further,
Christianity is a corrupted re-packaging of Judaism that didn't
really take off until the Romans adopted it. Choice of religion is
like fashion, really. It's all a matter of taste.
Otherwise, like I said, nice post.
On the contrary I think this point could be amplified much further.
Never has a hunter-gatherer people's religion been taken up by farmers
despite thousands of interactions between people at that level.
Religious culture never flows uphill from primitive conquered people to
their conquerors. It only ever flows from the advanced to the primitive
or from one people to another at broadly the same level of material
culture e.g. Greece to Rome.
Christianity is an exception, but it is one which proves the rule.
Christianity was not taken up by the people of Rome until it was
imposed, it was a minority cult which was adopted by the leadership
because the leadership found it useful. It was a more sophisticated and
evolved religion than the ones it replaced. It did not come from a more
advanced culture that is true, but neither did it come from a thoroughly
backward culture either. Christianity did not conquer the Roman Empire
it was imposed by the Emperor.
(I)
But also, Christianity wasn't Christianity 'till the Romans made it so.
The very tenants of Christianity were not put into stone untill the
Council of Nicea in 325 as wished by Constantine the second father of
Christianity. Christianity was just a power move for Constantine. And
early Roman Christianity was very similar to preexisting Roman
religion. Early portraits of Jesus were of a man with short blonde
hair, no beard, and a halo of sun light - exactly the same as Apollo.
Jesus was basically another roman sun god/ceaser god. Christians
worship on SUNday not on the sabbath!
Christianity draws upon Judaism, but I don't think it's fair to call it
a Jewish religion. Because it is a very unJewish religion and Jews
rarely convert to it. In the mind of a Jew or Moslem, a man cannot be a
god period, no if's, and's, or but's. The Jewish messiah will NEVER be
a god!
It is my understanding that Christianity starts with the mythology of
Mystra applied over a background of Judaism, where Jesus is given a
modern Rabbidic and Gnostic message. The Roman church adds to this and
distils it into what it is today. For instance the "let he who is
without sin cast the first stone" is not an original part of the bible.
That verse simply is not found in the oldest copies of the gospels, but
it is an integral part of Christian ethics. The Roman Church really
grew Christianity into what it is today. And with every new
"translation" of the bible (and catechism for Catholics (and a whole
extra fucking book for LDS)), Christianity slowly grows into something
different.
If a religion is not allowed to grow and change then it will die. I
firmly believe this. I firmly believe that Fundamentalism is destroying
Protestantism in America. And I firmly believe that conservative popes
and archbishops are destroying Catholicism in Europe and America.
That's a funny kind of death. Some people are leaving the Protestant and
Catholic churches and their moral standing among outsiders is dropping
but they are hardly imploding or collapsing. As time goes on the hard
core of the churches will get harder.
I define "death" as a decrease in numbers. Your language implies
fervence. By that definition Scientology is more alive than
Christianity.
In America Protestantism will never die because it has the capacity to
split, reform and revive.
If so that would exacly be inline with what I said.
(II)
Wicca is a much better counterexample. Wicca is more primitive and the
adopting culture is more advanced.
Wicca isn't a mass religion
Define "mass" religion in a non-arbitrary manner. In the US at least,
Wicca outnumbers Bai'hai, one of the most widespread religions in the
world.
Wicca certainly isn't a very popular religion, but really that wasn't
the point of your original argument. This is a irrelivant.
it is a series of loosely interconnected
neuroses: a shared mid-life crisis.
Every popular religion fits that pessimistic definition, including
Christianity.
Wicca has not survived in the
hedgerows and then reemerged in more tolerant times
I fail to see the point. Christianity spent a short period as a cult
and then became a state mandated religion. Christianity has really
lived high on the hog for most of it's life time. Christianity as a
whole does not fit that criteria and few religions do outside of Moselm
culture. Certainly certain denominations of Christianity were
persecuted by Christianity itself. So the argument would apply to
protestantism in certain places at certain times. But again I fail to
see the point of this detraction.
Secondly Wiccans would argue that Wicca satisfies that criteria even
more than Christianity. Wicca being punishable by death by Christians
during the Dark Ages. Though I do think the real connection between
modern Wicca and the ancient pagan religions is quite tenuous.
it has been
reconstructed as artificially and deliberately as the dead language of
ancient Hebrew was "brought back".
I am not familiar with ancient Hebrew, but as far as the origins of
Wicca, I too share those views. But still, why hold Wicca to a higher
standard. LDS and Scientology have far more sketchyness in their
origins. Most religions do.
Wicca is as culturally advanced as the modern health food shop that
takes Mastercard for dried aduki beans.
All of that detracting and with your final statement you concur with
me.
Strange.
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| User: "The Last Church" |
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| Title: Re: Religions that never die |
24 Jul 2005 04:21:57 PM |
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On Sun, 24 Jul 2005 18:58:35 +0100, Martin Willett
<mwillett.org@invalid.invalid> wrote:
<In America Protestantism will never die because it has the capacity to
<split, reform and revive.
It is already dead.
Martin like the majority is nearly always wrong about everything.
There is only one religion that has always been and will never die.
That is the Religion of those who seek the truth of all things with
out fear or regard for doctrine.
..
--Nobody Jones
TLC
If you can`t take it with you why collect it
in the first place? It Riddles,, now think!
What is the answer?
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| User: "Martin Willett" |
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| Title: Re: Religions that never die |
25 Jul 2005 12:57:13 AM |
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The Last Church wrote:
On Sun, 24 Jul 2005 18:58:35 +0100, Martin Willett
<mwillett.org@invalid.invalid> wrote:
<In America Protestantism will never die because it has the capacity to
<split, reform and revive.
It is already dead.
Martin like the majority is nearly always wrong about everything.
There is only one religion that has always been and will never die.
That is the Religion of those who seek the truth of all things with
out fear or regard for doctrine.
No Michael, there are many religions. And what the ***** do you know
about seeking truth? Your whole life is a series of self-serving lies.
--
Martin Willett
http://mwillett.org
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| User: "The Last Church" |
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| Title: Willett Loves God. |
25 Jul 2005 01:25:30 AM |
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On Mon, 25 Jul 2005 06:57:13 +0100, Martin Willett
<mwillett.org@invalid.invalid> wrote:
<A made up story about people who probably didn't exist
<reveals everything you need to know about God,
< who I love with compassion.
<
<The power of deliberately crafted fiction (parables) like my site
< made to impress those who want to be impressed
<never fails to impress me. I am also impressed by myself.
<
<Similarly carefully constructed fictions have been used to "prove"
< Catholic priests are child molesters
<etc. etc.
<How can people mistake their own direct experience?
Yoda says,'Martin understands not that which is in him. Angered he is
that he can not stand under the truth.
..
http://www.martin-willett.org
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| User: "The Last Church" |
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| Title: Re: Religions that never die |
25 Jul 2005 01:21:48 AM |
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On Mon, 25 Jul 2005 06:57:13 +0100, Martin Willett
<mwillett.org@invalid.invalid> wrote:
<The Last Church wrote:
<> On Sun, 24 Jul 2005 18:58:35 +0100, Martin Willett
<> <mwillett.org@invalid.invalid> wrote:
<> There is only one religion that has always been and will never die.
<> That is the Religion of those who seek the truth of all things with
<> out fear or regard for doctrine.
<>
<
<No Michael, there are many religions.
But only one that has always been and will never die. You should read
what you reply to.
<And what the ***** do I know
<about seeking truth? My whole life is a series of self-serving lies.
Yes we know...Do you know the witch that cursed you? No, for it is
yourself.
..
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| User: "The Last Church" |
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| Title: Re: Religions that never die |
24 Jul 2005 04:15:53 PM |
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On 24 Jul 2005 03:59:52 -0700, "Chris H. Fleming"
<chris_h_fleming@yahoo.com> wrote:
<(I)
<But also, Christianity wasn't Christianity 'till the Romans made it so.
Christianity still isn't Christianity. It is like it always was a
political party of organized religion. It does not carry the message
of Christ. That message was around long before the age of Christ.
..
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| User: "spakka" |
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| Title: Re: Religions that never die |
23 Jul 2005 06:28:28 PM |
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On Sat, 23 Jul 2005 20:39:01 +0100, Martin Willett wrote:
<snip>
When religions die they are taken over by more powerful religions. The
things that make religions more powerful are:
You make some good points, but I think you credit religious people with
too much intelligence. Hardly anyone chooses their religion on
merit - in fact, few people choose their religion at all. It's obvious
from the geographic distribution of religions that a person with a
propensity to believe will simply believe whatever their parents and
community tell them as kids. So it's a mistake to look simply at how
attractive the content is to the intelligent potential believer. Any old
***** will do.
What I think makes a religion powerful is traits which tend to increase
the numbers of its followers, viewed simply as a vehicles for transmitting
an arbitrary payload of mumbo-jumbo to the next generation. So my list is
different from yours:
1/ Promote unchecked reproduction - discourage birth control, abortion,
and non-reproductive sex including homosexuality.
2/ Threaten severe penalties for apostasy. These can be real (historical
Christianity, modern Islam) or imaginary (e.g modern Christianity)
3a/ Require indoctrination of kids - vertical transmission.
3b/ Require proselytisation - horizontal transmission. IMO, this is
why the ***** offshoots of Judaism displaced their centuries-established
parent. Trouble is, it's difficult nowadays to forcibly convert entire
populations with swords and burnings, so this route is less important. It
still might be effective if targeted at other people's kids or vulnerable
members of society under the cover of charitable work.
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