| Topic: |
Religions > Atheism |
| User: |
"" |
| Date: |
28 Sep 2006 04:10:48 AM |
| Object: |
Religious Ambiguity and Belief |
Does the universe exhibit religious ambiguity? My answer is in the
affirmative, but slightly so. There are two ways the above question can
be posed.
(i) Does the universe itself exhibit ontological ambiguity?
(ii) Does the universe exhibit ambiguity through human perception?
In my opinion, (i) fails as an inquiry. How is it possible that the
universe exhibit ontological ambiguity? How could the universe either
be the case that God (gods?) created the universe and did not? The
ambiguity, then, is on *our* side, residing in our human
epistemological capacity. But if that is so, is religious/non-religious
belief justified? A believes P on the basis that s/he was taught P from
an early age. Given A's epistemic circle from which A was born, it
seems sufficient to say that A is justified in P even if P turns out to
be false.
So my question is: if the universe through human perception exerts
religious ambiguity, then is religious/non-religious belief justified?
An affirmative answer raises another question: is it epistemologically
un-ethical to insist that person A is irrational in his belief that
God/no-god exists?
best wishes
Derrick Abdul-Hakim
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| User: "Greywolf" |
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| Title: Re: Religious Ambiguity and Belief |
28 Sep 2006 09:46:42 AM |
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<derrick_abdulhakim@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1159416648.192341.77060@b28g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
Does the universe exhibit religious ambiguity? My answer is in the
affirmative, but slightly so. There are two ways the above question can
be posed.
(i) Does the universe itself exhibit ontological ambiguity?
(ii) Does the universe exhibit ambiguity through human perception?
In my opinion, (i) fails as an inquiry. How is it possible that the
universe exhibit ontological ambiguity? How could the universe either
be the case that God (gods?) created the universe and did not? The
ambiguity, then, is on *our* side, residing in our human
epistemological capacity. But if that is so, is religious/non-religious
belief justified? A believes P on the basis that s/he was taught P from
an early age. Given A's epistemic circle from which A was born, it
seems sufficient to say that A is justified in P even if P turns out to
be false.
So my question is: if the universe through human perception exerts
religious ambiguity, then is religious/non-religious belief justified?
An affirmative answer raises another question: is it epistemologically
un-ethical to insist that person A is irrational in his belief that
God/no-god exists?
best wishes
Derrick Abdul-Hakim
Oh cut the crap. It should be apparent as the sun to everyone that there's
no 'God'. Why pretend otherwise? What justifiable proof exists that he does?
The 'Bible'? 'Faith'? C'mon. When is the charade going to end? Ambiguity
does nothing to prove that a 'God' exists -- *especially* the one
Christians, Jews and Muslims bandy about. That should be as plain as the
sun. When will the religionists take their head out of their collective *****,
look around, and see that their 'God' is purely make-believe. The world
would be a better place for them doing so. We would have one less, but HUGE
reason to go to war with each other. And there would be no further reason to
brainwash our children to believe in the preposterous.
I'm ranting, but the 'Jesus Camp' stuff is still on my mind and makes me mad
as hell. Sorry.
Greywolf
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| User: "Elroy Willis" |
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| Title: Re: Religious Ambiguity and Belief |
28 Sep 2006 11:22:58 AM |
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"Greywolf" <greywolf@cybrzn.com> wrote in alt.atheism
When will the religionists take their head out of their collective *****,
look around, and see that their 'God' is purely make-believe.
The same day Bush admits he's made mistakes.
--
Elroy Willis
www.elroysemporium.com
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| User: "Greywolf" |
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| Title: Re: Religious Ambiguity and Belief |
28 Sep 2006 08:08:05 PM |
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"Elroy Willis" <elroywillis@swbell.net> wrote in message
news:d2cnh2dsb2642acqgdv2tkvklpb01dboit@4ax.com...
"Greywolf" <greywolf@cybrzn.com> wrote in alt.atheism
When will the religionists take their head out of their collective *****,
look around, and see that their 'God' is purely make-believe.
The same day Bush admits he's made mistakes.
--
Elroy Willis
www.elroysemporium.com
Wow! *That* long? Well the earth will disintegrate, eventually reshape
itself and that *still* won't happen!
Greywolf
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| User: "Michael Gray" |
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| Title: Re: Religious Ambiguity and Belief |
28 Sep 2006 10:37:43 PM |
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On Thu, 28 Sep 2006 04:46:42 -0500, "Greywolf" <greywolf@cybrzn.com>
wrote:
- Refer: <12hn6gdi13fo41a@corp.supernews.com>
<derrick_abdulhakim@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1159416648.192341.77060@b28g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
Does the universe exhibit religious ambiguity? My answer is in the
affirmative, but slightly so. There are two ways the above question can
be posed.
(i) Does the universe itself exhibit ontological ambiguity?
(ii) Does the universe exhibit ambiguity through human perception?
In my opinion, (i) fails as an inquiry. How is it possible that the
universe exhibit ontological ambiguity? How could the universe either
be the case that God (gods?) created the universe and did not? The
ambiguity, then, is on *our* side, residing in our human
epistemological capacity. But if that is so, is religious/non-religious
belief justified? A believes P on the basis that s/he was taught P from
an early age. Given A's epistemic circle from which A was born, it
seems sufficient to say that A is justified in P even if P turns out to
be false.
So my question is: if the universe through human perception exerts
religious ambiguity, then is religious/non-religious belief justified?
An affirmative answer raises another question: is it epistemologically
un-ethical to insist that person A is irrational in his belief that
God/no-god exists?
best wishes
Derrick Abdul-Hakim
Oh cut the crap. It should be apparent as the sun to everyone that there's
no 'God'. Why pretend otherwise? What justifiable proof exists that he does?
The 'Bible'? 'Faith'? C'mon. When is the charade going to end? Ambiguity
does nothing to prove that a 'God' exists -- *especially* the one
Christians, Jews and Muslims bandy about. That should be as plain as the
sun. When will the religionists take their head out of their collective *****,
look around, and see that their 'God' is purely make-believe. The world
would be a better place for them doing so. We would have one less, but HUGE
reason to go to war with each other. And there would be no further reason to
brainwash our children to believe in the preposterous.
I'm ranting, but the 'Jesus Camp' stuff is still on my mind and makes me mad
as hell. Sorry.
Maintain the rage.
The world needs it to sweep away violent superstition.
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| User: "Pastor Kutchie" |
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| Title: Re: Religious Ambiguity and Belief |
28 Sep 2006 05:26:35 PM |
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wrote:
Does the universe exhibit religious ambiguity?
No, it unambiguously demonstrates that religion is redundant at best,
and at worst obfuscates reality to the point of opacity.
<Rest of blatant strawman snipped>.
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| User: "AcesLucky" |
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| Title: Re: Religious Ambiguity and Belief |
02 Oct 2006 09:52:06 PM |
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wrote:
Does the universe exhibit religious ambiguity? My answer is in the
affirmative, but slightly so. There are two ways the above question can
be posed.
(i) Does the universe itself exhibit ontological ambiguity?
(ii) Does the universe exhibit ambiguity through human perception?
In my opinion, (i) fails as an inquiry. How is it possible that the
universe exhibit ontological ambiguity? How could the universe either
be the case that God (gods?) created the universe and did not? The
ambiguity, then, is on *our* side, residing in our human
epistemological capacity. But if that is so, is religious/non-religious
belief justified? A believes P on the basis that s/he was taught P from
an early age. Given A's epistemic circle from which A was born, it
seems sufficient to say that A is justified in P even if P turns out to
be false.
So my question is: if the universe through human perception exerts
religious ambiguity, then is religious/non-religious belief justified?
An affirmative answer raises another question: is it epistemologically
un-ethical to insist that person A is irrational in his belief that
God/no-god exists?
best wishes
Derrick Abdul-Hakim
I'd be interested to see if anyone understands your question. I was lost
at the universe exhibiting religious ambiguity.
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| User: "Michael Gray" |
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| Title: Re: Religious Ambiguity and Belief |
08 Oct 2006 02:03:54 AM |
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On Mon, 02 Oct 2006 14:52:06 -0700, AcesLucky <acesLucky@netscape.net>
wrote:
- Refer: <cSfUg.2774$ef2.1060@fed1read09>
derrick_abdulhakim@yahoo.com wrote:
Does the universe exhibit religious ambiguity? My answer is in the
affirmative, but slightly so. There are two ways the above question can
be posed.
(i) Does the universe itself exhibit ontological ambiguity?
(ii) Does the universe exhibit ambiguity through human perception?
In my opinion, (i) fails as an inquiry. How is it possible that the
universe exhibit ontological ambiguity? How could the universe either
be the case that God (gods?) created the universe and did not? The
ambiguity, then, is on *our* side, residing in our human
epistemological capacity. But if that is so, is religious/non-religious
belief justified? A believes P on the basis that s/he was taught P from
an early age. Given A's epistemic circle from which A was born, it
seems sufficient to say that A is justified in P even if P turns out to
be false.
So my question is: if the universe through human perception exerts
religious ambiguity, then is religious/non-religious belief justified?
An affirmative answer raises another question: is it epistemologically
un-ethical to insist that person A is irrational in his belief that
God/no-god exists?
best wishes
Derrick Abdul-Hakim
I'd be interested to see if anyone understands your question. I was lost
at the universe exhibiting religious ambiguity.
You managed to get that far?!
I was lost before the "Does".
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| User: "Les Hellawell" |
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| Title: Re: Religious Ambiguity and Belief |
03 Oct 2006 09:40:46 AM |
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On Mon, 02 Oct 2006 14:52:06 -0700, AcesLucky <acesLucky@netscape.net>
wrote:
derrick_abdulhakim@yahoo.com wrote:
Does the universe exhibit religious ambiguity? My answer is in the
affirmative, but slightly so. There are two ways the above question can
be posed.
(i) Does the universe itself exhibit ontological ambiguity?
(ii) Does the universe exhibit ambiguity through human perception?
In my opinion, (i) fails as an inquiry. How is it possible that the
universe exhibit ontological ambiguity? How could the universe either
be the case that God (gods?) created the universe and did not? The
ambiguity, then, is on *our* side, residing in our human
epistemological capacity. But if that is so, is religious/non-religious
belief justified? A believes P on the basis that s/he was taught P from
an early age. Given A's epistemic circle from which A was born, it
seems sufficient to say that A is justified in P even if P turns out to
be false.
So my question is: if the universe through human perception exerts
religious ambiguity, then is religious/non-religious belief justified?
An affirmative answer raises another question: is it epistemologically
un-ethical to insist that person A is irrational in his belief that
God/no-god exists?
best wishes
Derrick Abdul-Hakim
I'd be interested to see if anyone understands your question. I was lost
at the universe exhibiting religious ambiguity.
"Through human perception" - don't forget!
The greatest unanswered question is the origin of the universe.
Many are afraid of admitting ignorance so they have perceived
the notion 'a god did it' (ignoring that it raises an even bigger
unanswerable question).
The religious ambiguity here - if I understand him
correctly - is that there is no evidence, either directly or
indirectly, to show that this notion is anything more than
just that - a dreamed up fantasy.
No belief that a god-did-it was, of course, the starting point,
that is what we had before the idea was first introduced.
So, in the absence of any evidence to justify this notion,
is it justified not to accept it as true and continue as
before or accept it 'as is' and start beileving?
Is either stance (belief/none belief) unethical he asks?
I ask, what has ethics gt to do with it? Personally
it matters not whether you believe there was or was
not a creator since it is either just a simple fact or
a simple fiction.
After all this notion is nothing more than a belief
something - call it what you will - created everything.
That's all, there is nothing about love involved, nothing about
after-life, nothing to say this creator created everything 'as is'
and things did not change or evolve, nothing about morals or
good or evil, just a simple 'it created the universe'. Fine so
what? what's on TV tonight - ah yes 'Autumn watch' with Bill Oddie.
And yet the question 'what is the origin of the universe' has
still not been answered since the notion 'god-did-it' does not
tell us the origin of the god. If it is impossible for the universe
to pop out of nothing how much harder is it for a being capable
of creating the universe itself popping out of nothing? This
is a akin to a magician popping out of a hat so it can produce
a rabbit. Slight difference though: no hat!
What is unethical is to invent all these additional beliefs about this
god without giving any justification about what is said - it loves
us to bits, it dictates how we should behave, it provides after
life services blah blah and then demand we accept these beliefs
without question or be castigated and reviled.
It is unethical to decide that since others 'refuse to pray' (as they
characterise it) they should take responsibility (as they perceive it)
for their lives and pray for them. That, in my view, is discourteous
and patronising since it says to the person who is
told he is being prayed for that he is irresponsible, unable
to take care of himself (like a child) and needs 'taking in hand'
for his own good (like a parent brushes a childs teeth for
him not trusting him to do it dor himself) Is that not offensive
to the person being told 'we shall pray for you'?
Our ethical stance should be to leave these believers to
their beliefs just as long as they do not try to intefere in our
lives. The problem is that they do and increasingly so. One
lot tells me I live in a sewer - yes that was recently said by one
Moslem about the UK - and should be slaughtered like rats.
All simply because I don't constantly scream "God is great".
--
Les Hellawell
Greetings from:
YORKSHIRE - The White Rose County
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| User: "Josef Balluch" |
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| Title: Re: Religious Ambiguity and Belief |
28 Sep 2006 12:33:26 PM |
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In a message sent 'round the world, poured
fuel on the fire with the following:
....
A believes P on the basis that s/he was taught P from
an early age. Given A's epistemic circle from which A was born, it
seems sufficient to say that A is justified in P even if P turns out to
be false.
How does your deity feel about this, Derrick?
Regards,
Josef
A man always has two reasons for doing anything - a good
reason and the real reason.
-- J. P. Morgan
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| User: "Michael Gray" |
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| Title: Re: Religious Ambiguity and Belief |
28 Sep 2006 09:14:34 AM |
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On 27 Sep 2006 21:10:48 -0700, wrote:
- Refer: <1159416648.192341.77060@b28g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>
Does the universe exhibit religious ambiguity? My answer is in the
affirmative, but slightly so. There are two ways the above question can
be posed.
(i) Does the universe itself exhibit ontological ambiguity?
(ii) Does the universe exhibit ambiguity through human perception?
:
Utterly meaningless gobbldygook.
Try alt.philosophy.wankers
They go for that kind of childish pseudo-drivel.
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| User: "Elroy Willis" |
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| Title: Re: Religious Ambiguity and Belief |
28 Sep 2006 11:10:54 AM |
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Michael Gray <fleetg@newsguy.spam.com> wrote in alt.atheism
derrick_abdulhakim@yahoo.com wrote:
Does the universe exhibit religious ambiguity? My answer is in the
affirmative, but slightly so. There are two ways the above question can
be posed.
(i) Does the universe itself exhibit ontological ambiguity?
(ii) Does the universe exhibit ambiguity through human perception?
Utterly meaningless gobbldygook.
Try alt.philosophy.wankers
They go for that kind of childish pseudo-drivel.
A red flag goes up when I see "ontological" and "epistemological"
in the same post these days.
--
Elroy Willis
www.elroysemporium.com
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| User: "Michael Gray" |
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| Title: Re: Religious Ambiguity and Belief |
28 Sep 2006 10:36:39 PM |
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On Thu, 28 Sep 2006 11:10:54 GMT, Elroy Willis
<elroywillis@swbell.net> wrote:
- Refer: <a7bnh29gq7p4ib0gmj00su2vqt498rtuf9@4ax.com>
Michael Gray <fleetg@newsguy.spam.com> wrote in alt.atheism
derrick_abdulhakim@yahoo.com wrote:
Does the universe exhibit religious ambiguity? My answer is in the
affirmative, but slightly so. There are two ways the above question can
be posed.
(i) Does the universe itself exhibit ontological ambiguity?
(ii) Does the universe exhibit ambiguity through human perception?
Utterly meaningless gobbldygook.
Try alt.philosophy.wankers
They go for that kind of childish pseudo-drivel.
A red flag goes up when I see "ontological" and "epistemological"
in the same post these days.
Red Flag!
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| User: "raven1" |
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| Title: Re: Religious Ambiguity and Belief |
29 Sep 2006 09:55:56 PM |
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On 27 Sep 2006 21:10:48 -0700, wrote:
Does the universe exhibit religious ambiguity? My answer is in the
affirmative, but slightly so. There are two ways the above question can
be posed.
(i) Does the universe itself exhibit ontological ambiguity?
(ii) Does the universe exhibit ambiguity through human perception?
In my opinion, (i) fails as an inquiry. How is it possible that the
universe exhibit ontological ambiguity? How could the universe either
be the case that God (gods?) created the universe and did not? The
ambiguity, then, is on *our* side, residing in our human
epistemological capacity. But if that is so, is religious/non-religious
belief justified? A believes P on the basis that s/he was taught P from
an early age. Given A's epistemic circle from which A was born, it
seems sufficient to say that A is justified in P even if P turns out to
be false.
So my question is: if the universe through human perception exerts
religious ambiguity, then is religious/non-religious belief justified?
An affirmative answer raises another question: is it epistemologically
un-ethical to insist that person A is irrational in his belief that
God/no-god exists?
What in the world is this babble supposed to mean?
--
"O Sybilli, si ergo
Fortibus es in ero
O Nobili! Themis trux
Sivat sinem? Causen Dux"
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