Religious threat routine now at risk?



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Topic: Religions > Atheism
User: "Pro-Humanist FREELOVER"
Date: 16 Jul 2007 01:38:07 PM
Object: Religious threat routine now at risk?
- - -
Well, religions tend to focus on the loving
and pleasant immortality parts of their faith,
these days, most often.
So, in a way, religions are their own engine
of diminishing the more threatening aspects
of their faith, most often.
However, of note, they still keep those threat-
ening aspects around, and still use them,
from time to time, to try to scare folks into
following their religion. Some use them much
more often than others, with fundamentalist
teaching of fear of fire and brimstone still
widespread in the so-called 'bible belt'.
Even though the following article indicates
a drug has been found that might very well
lessen *persistent* fear, one must wonder
if, at some point in the future, the drug-
induced lessening of fear will pose a poten-
tial serious risk to the threat aspect of reli-
gious faith.
After all, if you remove the scare from the
religious "scare 'em and save 'em" routine,
what remains? If there's nothing to be saved
from, if there's no lasting fear invoked by the
religious threat engine, what's the point of be-
ing saved from something you're not all that
afraid of, anyway?
Certainly, that cuts to the core of religions,
drug-induced removal of fear, if viable and
if applicable to fear, in general, rather than
just to *persistent* fear:
- - -
July 16, 2007
Drug to treat persistent fear now possible
Science Daily
http://tinyurl.com/2k9dth
- - -
Excerpts:
U.S. scientists have found a molecular
mechanism that governs the formation of
fears stemming from traumatic events.
The researchers ... said their discovery
could lead to the first drug to treat persist-
ent, debilitating fears ... inhibiting a kinase
called Cdk5 facilitates the extinction of
fear learned in a particular context. ...
"Remarkably, inhibiting Cdk5 facilitated
extinction of learned fear in mice ...
- - - end excerpts - - -
¤ - ¤ - ¤ - ¤ - ¤ - ¤ - ¤ - ¤ - ¤ - ¤ - ¤ - ¤
~~~
Pro-Humanist FREELOVER
http://fire.prohosting.com/prohuman
Freethinking Realist Exploring
Expressive Liberty, Openness,
Verity, Enlightenment, & Rationality
~~~
.

User: "Somebody Who Loves You Somebody Who Loves"

Title: Re: Religious threat routine now at risk? 16 Jul 2007 02:13:48 PM
"Pro-Humanist FREELOVER" <prohumanist@gr8mail.com> wrote in message news:469bbb3b$0$29419$a82e2bb9@reader.athenanews.com...
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"The best way to drive out the devil, if he will
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.. Wisdom
(1 Corinthians 1:18-25 NASB)
The Wisdom of God
18 For the word of the cross is ?a?foolishness to ?b?those who ?1?are
perishing, but to us who ?2?are being saved it is ?c?the power of God.
19 For it is written,
“?a?I will destroy the wisdom of the wise,
And the cleverness of the clever I will set aside.”
20 ?a?Where is the wise man? Where is the scribe? Where is the debater
of ?b?this age? Has not God ?c?made foolish the wisdom of ?d?the world?
21 For since in the wisdom of God ?a?the world through its wisdom did
not come to know God, ?b?God was well-pleased through the
?c?foolishness of the ?1?message preached to ?d?save those who believe.
22 For indeed ?a?Jews ask for ?1?signs and Greeks search for wisdom;
23 but we preach ?1??a?Christ crucified, ?b?to Jews a stumbling block
and to Gentiles ?c?foolishness,
24 but to those who are ?a?the called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ
?b?the power of God and ?c?the wisdom of God.
25 Because the ?a?foolishness of God is wiser than men, and ?b?the
weakness of God is stronger than men.
[1]
The cross divides men. The cross divides the saved from the unsaved, but it
doesn’t divide the saved people. It should unite them, you see. A Dutch artist
painted a picture called “The Last Judgment.” It depicts the throne of God, and
away from that throne the lost are falling into space. And as they fall, they cling
together. This is an accurate picture of the one world that men are working for
today. The lost want to come together in one great unity, and they are going to
accomplish a great union in the last days. But cutting across the grain of the
ecumenical environment and the contemporary thought is the gospel of Christ.
Lord Jesus called Himself a divider of men, and the dividing line is His cross.
The preaching of the Cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto the saved
person it is the power of God.
Paul makes it very clear that his method was not in the wisdom of the words of
the world, not in the method of dialectics of divisions or differences or opinions
or theories, but he just presented the cross of Christ. That brought about a unity
of those who were saved. To those who perish, the cross of Christ is
foolishness; but to the saved man it becomes the power of God. The cross of
Christ divides the world, but it does not divide the church.
[2]
1 Corinthians 1:18 (a)
For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness…
The literal translation would more correctly render this verse: “For the
preaching of the Cross is to them that are perishing foolishness.” When we tell
people that Jesus loves them, died in place of them, and offers a new life to
them, those who are perishing just don’t get it because to deny one’s self and
take up the Cross seems foolish to them.
[3]
1 Corinthians 1:18 (b)
…but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.
Again, a more literal rendering of this verse would be “…but unto us which are
being saved, it is the power of God.” Salvation is, in a sense, progressive.
When you opened your heart to Jesus Christ, you were saved from the penalty
of sin. Day by day, we’re saved from the power of sin. And when Jesus comes
to take us to heaven, we’ll be saved from the presence of sin. The message of
the Cross gives hope when I have failed because Jesus’ blood cleanses me
from all sin. It also gives direction to the way I live, for it is only when I deny
myself and take up the Cross that I find life (Matthew 10:38, 39).
1:18 The message (logos) of the Cross, in contrast to the speech (logos) of
human wisdom (v. 17), has the Cross as its central theme. When people hear it,
it produces opposite effects in those who are on the way to perdition and in
those on the way to glory. Paul contrasted foolishness and weakness with
wisdom and power (cf. Rom. 1:16).
“What would you think if a woman came to work wearing earrings stamped
with an image of the mushroom cloud of the atomic bomb dropped over
Hiroshima?
“What would you think of a church building adorned with a fresco of the
massed graves at Auschwitz? . . .
“The same sort of shocking horror was associated with cross and crucifixion in
the first century.”30
[4]
1 Corinthians 1:19, 20
For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing
the understanding of the prudent. Where is the wise? where is the scribe?
where is the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of
this world?
“Where are the debaters, scribes, and thinkers? Where are the psychiatrists
and psychologists?” asks Paul. “What have they done for your culture? Hasn’t
God made foolish the wisdom of the world?”
We can either become depressed over the foolish political and judicial
decisions of our leaders—or we can realize they are exactly what God planned
to do all along. We won’t be upset if we realize that even the foolishness of the
world is part of God’s plan.
1:20 The first three questions in this verse recall similar questions that Isaiah
voiced when the Assyrians’ plans to destroy Jerusalem fell through (Isa. 33:18;
cf. Job 12:17; Isa. 19:12). Paul’s references to the age (Gr. aion) and the world
(kosmos) clarify that he was speaking of purely natural wisdom in contrast to
the wisdom that God has revealed. God’s wisdom centers on the Cross.
“In first-century Corinth, ‘wisdom’ was not understood to be practical skill in
living under the fear of the Lord (as it frequently is in Proverbs), nor was it
perceived to be some combination of intuition, insight, and people smarts (as it
frequently is today in the West). Rather, wisdom was a public philosophy, a
well-articulated world-view that made sense of life and ordered the choices,
values, and priorities of those who adopted it. The ‘wise man,’ then, was
someone who adopted and defended one of the many competing public world-
views. Those who were ‘wise’ in this sense might have been Epicureans or
Stoics or Sophists or Platonists, but they had this in common: they claimed to
be able to ‘make sense’ out of life and death and the universe.”31
[5]
S. Lewis Johnson in The Wycliffe Bible Commentary notes that in context these
“words are God’s denouncement of the policy of the ‘wise’ in Judah in seeking
an alliance with Egypt when threatened by Sennacherib.”? 2 How true it is that
God delights to accomplish His purposes in ways that seem foolish to men.
How often He uses methods that the wise of this world would ridicule, yet they
achieve the desired results with wonderful accuracy and efficiency. For
example, man’s wisdom assures him that he can earn or merit his own salvation.
The gospel sets aside all man’s efforts to save himself and presents Christ as the
only way to God.
[6]
1 Corinthians 1:21
For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it
pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.
People have their hope restored in the big picture of eternity through that which
the world deems foolish: the preaching of the Word. Paul doesn’t say that
people are saved by the preaching of foolishness. You’ll know the difference
between the preaching that is the power of God and the preaching of
foolishness by one simple rule of thumb: Does what is being said match up with
the Scriptures? Is it seen specifically in the life of Jesus? Is it practiced
throughout the Book of Acts? Is it taught by Paul in the Epistles? In other
words, is it consistent with the entire New Testament?
Every true teaching, doctrine, and practice is seen in the life of Jesus, practiced
in the Book of Acts, and taught by Paul in the Epistles. Therefore, if a teacher
of preacher suggests something that doesn’t match up in all those areas, reject
it. Because there is enough in the Word to keep us busy for every day of our
lives, there is no need to supplement it with deviant doctrine or bizarre
practices.
1 Corinthians 1:22, 23 (a)
For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom: But we preach
Christ crucified…
Whether relating to marriage or government, depression or addiction, parenting,
finances, or doubt, the Cross is indeed the crux of every matter.
Notice that Paul divides mankind into two great ethnic groups: the Jews and the
Greeks (meaning Gentiles). He recognizes this twofold division. The Jew
represented religion. He had a God-given religion. The Jews felt that they had
the truth, and they did—as far as the Old Testament was concerned. The
problem was that it had become just a ritual to them. They had departed from
the Scriptures and followed tradition, which was their interpretation of the
Scriptures. The power was gone. Therefore, when Christ appeared, they asked
for a sign. Rather than turning to their Scriptures, they asked for a sign. “Then
certain of the scribes and of the Pharisees answered, saying, Master, we would
see a sign from thee. But he answered and said unto them, An evil and
adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given to it,
but the sign of the prophet Jonas: For as Jonas was three days and three nights
in the whale’s belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in
the heart of the earth” (Matt. 12:38–40). The Lord Jesus gave to them the sign
of resurrection.
[7]
1 Corinthians 1:23 (b)—25
…unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness; but unto
them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and
the wisdom of God. Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the
weakness of God is stronger than men.
The Jews stumble at the crucified Christ. Why? They were looking for a
Messiah to lead them militarily and provide for them economically. Therefore,
when Jesus came on the scene and was nailed to a Cross, they discounted Him
immediately. Today we see crosses around necks, on bookmarks, or above
churches. In Jesus’ day, however, this would have been equivalent to wearing a
little gold electric chair around one’s neck, attaching a mini gas chamber to a
bookmark, or hanging a noose atop a church.
The Greeks didn’t find the Cross to be humiliating. They found it to be too
simple. And the Greek mind-set is still present today in those who think the
preaching of the Cross is too simple, that it doesn’t deal with the dysfunctional
families, drug addictions, and cultural differences of our complex culture. We
who have personally experienced its power know otherwise.
[8]
“What is truth?” asked the fatalistic Pilate. Bacon asked the same question, and
philosophy is still asking that question. Philosophy still has no answers to the
problems of life. “Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the disputer
of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world?”
Someone has defined philosophy as a blind man in a dark room looking for a
black cat that isn’t there. The Greeks sought after wisdom. Today man is still
searching for some theory or formula, and he thinks that it is through science
that he will get the answers to some of the questions of life. Do you think that
man today has the answers to the questions of life? I was interested in a
statement which I found in a periodical: “The truth is that modern man is
overimpressed by his own achievements. To put a rocket into an orbit that is
more than a hundred miles from the surface of the earth takes a great deal of
joint thought and effort, but we tend to overstate the case. Though men who
ride a few miles above the earth are called astronauts, this is clearly a
misnomer. Men will not be astronauts until they ride among the stars, and it is
important to remember that most of the stars are thousands of lightyears away.
The Russians are even more unrestrained in their overstatements, calling their
men cosmonauts. Someone needs to say, ‘Little man, don’t take yourself quite
so seriously.’”
Man today thinks he has a few answers. Where are the wise today? It is a
good question to ask. You see, God has made foolish the wisdom of this
world.
“For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it
pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.” This is
a tremendous statement.
“But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumbling block, and unto the
Greeks foolishness.” The Jews found the Cross to be a stumblingblock, a
skandalon. They wanted a sign. They wanted someone to show the way. They
wanted a pointer, a highway marker. They would have accepted a deliverer on
a white charger who was putting down the power of Rome. But a crucified
Christ was an insult to them. That meant defeat—not victory. They didn’t want
to accept that at all. “As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and
rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed” (Rom.
9:33). And Peter wrote this: “Unto you therefore which believe he is precious:
but unto them which be disobedient, the stone which the builders disallowed,
the same is made the head of the corner, And a stone of stumbling, and a rock
of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient:
whereunto also they were appointed” (1 Pet. 2:7–8). A crucified Christ was a
stumblingblock to the Jew.
To the Greeks (or Gentiles) the cross was foolishness, an absurdity. They
considered it utterly preposterous and ridiculous and contrary to any rational,
worldly system. In Rome there has been found a caricature of Christianity, a
figure on the cross with an *****’ head. Also in our day our Savior is being
ridiculed.
Now Paul bears down on philosophy. While he was in the city of Corinth, he
was preaching Christ. “And when they opposed themselves, and blasphemed,
he shook his raiment, and said unto them, Your blood be upon your own
heads; I am clean: from henceforth I will go unto the Gentiles” (Acts 18:6). Can
philosophy lift man out of the cesspool of this life? It never has. Notice that men
will be saved, not by foolish preaching, but by the preaching of “foolishness,”
that is, by the preaching of the Cross. It is not the method but the message that
the natural man considers foolish. Men still reject it. Today the wisdom of the
world is to have an antipoverty program or some other kind of program. Or the
wisdom of the world is to save man from his problems by education. May I say
that what man needs today is the gospel. The wisdom of the world has never
considered that.
Now Paul introduces another class of mankind. “Unto them which are called,
both Jews and Greeks”—these are the called, the elect. They have not only
heard the invitation, they have responded to it. And they have found in the cross
of Christ the wisdom and power of God which has transformed their lives,
made them new men. The Lord Jesus molded eleven men, then called Saul of
Tarsus, and sent them out. They took the gospel to Corinth with its sin, to
Ephesus with its religion. For over nineteen hundred years the gospel has been
going around the world, and it is the only help and the only hope of mankind.
[9]
Evangelist, speaking to Christian after Christian’s encounter with Worldly
Wiseman: “I will now show thee who it was that deluded thee. … That man
that met thee is one Worldly Wiseman; and rightly is he so called; partly
because he savoreth only of the doctrine of this world (therefore he always
goes to the town of Morality to church), and partly because he loveth that
doctrine best, for it saveth him from the Cross.”
John Bunyan in The Pilgrim’s Progress
[10]
SILLY, SUPERFICIAL, AND SIMPLE
Paul had literally been where no man had gone before. He had taken the gospel
to uncharted territories and untested hearers. He understood rejection. When
Paul mentioned audience reactions (1:21), he had the scars to prove just how
violently some resisted the gospel. Problems in sharing the gospel were not
theoretical for Paul.
Those who proclaim the gospel may find that others think they are ridiculous. If
our message did not hold the answer to life and death it might seem silly and
superficial. Though some ridicule it, the gospel remains the simple truth. Paul
described the attitude we ought to have this way: “For I am not ashamed of this
Good News about Christ. It is the power of God at work, saving everyone
who believes—Jews first and also Gentiles” (Romans 1:16 nlt). Like Paul, we
must proclaim the simple gospel.
[11]
MIXED REACTIONS
The Good News of Jesus Christ still sounds foolish to many and offensive to
others. It is foolishness to any who have chosen another way to face their
unavoidable appointment with death and what comes after. It is offensive to
those who attempt to maintain a facade of self-righteousness or self-confidence
in the face of life’s questions. Those who cannot consider their own sinfulness
will find that the gospel offers a solution they insist they do not need. Our
society worships power, influence, and wealth. Jesus came as a humble, poor
servant, and he offers his kingdom to those who have faith, not to those who
work hard or improve themselves. This may look ridiculous to the world, but
Christ is our power, the only way we can be saved. Make sure you know
Christ personally; then you’ll have the greatest wisdom anyone could desire.
[12]
What Is Pragmatism?
Pragmatism is the notion that meaning or worth is determined by practical
consequences. It is closely akin to utilitarianism, the belief that usefulness is the
standard of what is good. To a pragmatist/utilitarian, if a technique or course of
action has the desired effect, it is good. If it doesn’t seem to work, it must be
wrong.
Pragmatism as a philosophy was developed and popularized at the end of the
last century by philosopher William James, along with such other noted
intellectuals as John Dewey and George Santayana. It was James who gave the
new philosophy its name and shape. In 1907, he published a collection of
lectures entitled Pragmatism: A New Name for Some Old Ways of Thinking,
and thus defined a whole new approach to truth and life.
Pragmatism has roots in Darwinism and secular humanism. It is inherently
relativistic, rejecting the notion of absolute right and wrong, good and evil, truth
and error. Pragmatism ultimately defines truth as that which is useful,
meaningful, and helpful. Ideas that don’t seem workable or relevant are
rejected as false.
What’s wrong with pragmatism? After all, common sense involves a measure of
legitimate pragmatism, doesn’t it? If a dripping faucet works fine after you
replace the washers, for example, it is reasonable to assume that bad washers
were the problem. If the medicine your doctor prescribes produces harmful
side effects or has no effect at all, you need to ask if there’s a remedy that
works. Such simple pragmatic realities are generally self-evident.
But when pragmatism is used to make judgments about right and wrong, or
when it becomes a guiding philosophy of life, theology, and ministry, inevitably it
clashes with Scripture. Spiritual and biblical truth is not determined by testing
what “works” and what doesn’t. We know from Scripture, for example, that
the gospel often does not produce a positive response (1 Cor. 1:22, 23; 2:14).
On the other hand, satanic lies and deception can be quite effective (Matt.
24:23, 24; 2 Cor. 4:3, 4). Majority reaction is no test of validity (cf Matt. 7:13,
14), and prosperity is no measure of truthfulness (cf Job 12:6). Pragmatism as a
guiding philosophy of ministry is inherently flawed. Pragmatism as a test of truth
is nothing short of satanic.
[13]
Thinking Again
Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when
the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord.
—Acts 3:19
Peter had preached to the crowd in the temple: Jesus Christ crucified, risen,
ascended; Jesus Christ coming again; Jesus Christ the great Deliverer; the
baptizer with the Holy Spirit; Jesus Christ who alone can refresh us and give us
new life and health and vigor and strength. He had expounded all that, but still
he had not finished, and we have not finished. God forbid that we should finish
without looking at this subject that is left here for us to consider. Far too often
we stop at the wrong point, we do not go all the way, but here it is.
In the light of all this, said Peter, “Repent ye therefore …” Here is the focus of
the whole sermon, and this is the point that pierces. This is an essential and a
vital part of the preaching of the Gospel, and the first thing we must realize is
that this message, this Gospel, is not something theoretical and academic. It is
not just one of a number of views of life that you can take up and read about or
listen to lectures or sermons concerning it and still remain in the position of a
spectator. One can have an intellectual interest in various subjects—“Very
good, very intriguing, very enjoyable.” But this is not like that; this is the most
practical thing in the world. This is something that concerns life and living. This
is a life and death matter.
This emphasis was present, in exactly the same way, in the sermon Peter
preached on the day of Pentecost, and it characterizes the whole of the New
Testament teaching. It is a note of urgency: “Repent ye therefore …” Peter was
urgent and insistent. He was not entertaining these people. He was not just out
to deliver an address. He was not a kind of orator. Not at all! This man had
been a fisherman, but suddenly he had been called and commissioned. He had
been sent to do something, and he was alive. He was alert. He was insistent
and urgent. He said, “Repent.” He pressed his message upon his listeners, and
thereby he showed them that it was not just of general or theoretical interest. It
is the most urgent and practical thing in the world. So he pleaded with the
people.
[14]
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a 1 Cor 1:21, 23, 25; 2:14; 4:10
b Acts 2:47; 2 Cor 2:15; 4:3; 2 Thess 2:10
1 Or perish
2 Or are saved
c Rom 1:16; 1 Cor 1:24
a Is 29:14
a Job 12:17; Is 19:11f; 33:18
b Matt 13:22; 1 Cor 2:6, 8; 3:18, 19
c Rom 1:20ff
d John 12:31; 1 Cor 1:27f; 6:2; 11:32; James 4:4
a John 12:31; 1 Cor 1:27f; 6:2; 11:32; James 4:4
b Luke 12:32; Gal 1:15; Col 1:19
c 1 Cor 1:18, 23, 25; 2:14; 4:10
1 Lit preaching
d Rom 11:14; James 5:20
a Matt 12:38
1 Or attesting miracles
1 I.e. Messiah
a 1 Cor 2:2; Gal 3:1; 5:11
b Luke 2:34; 1 Pet 2:8
c 1 Cor 1:18, 21, 25; 2:14; 4:10
a Rom 8:28
b Rom 1:16; 1 Cor 1:18
c Luke 11:49; 1 Cor 1:30
a 1 Cor 1:18, 21, 23; 2:14; 4:10
b 2 Cor 13:4
[1]New American Standard Bible : 1995 update. 1995 (1 Co 1:18-25).
LaHabra, CA: The Lockman Foundation.
[2]McGee, J. V. (1997, c1981). Thru the Bible commentary. Based on the
Thru the Bible radio program. (electronic ed.) (5:10). Nashville: Thomas
Nelson.
[3]Courson, J. (2003). Jon Courson's Application Commentary (1014).
Nashville, TN: Thomas Nelson.
30 30. D. A. Carson, The Cross & Christian Ministry, p. 12.
[4]Tom Constable. (2003; 2003). Tom Constable's Expository Notes on the
Bible (1 Co 1:18). Galaxie Software.
31 31. Ibid., pp. 15-16.
[5]Tom Constable. (2003; 2003). Tom Constable's Expository Notes on the
Bible (1 Co 1:20). Galaxie Software.
? 2 (1:19) S. Lewis Johnson, “First Corinthians,” The Wycliffe Bible
Commentary, p. 1232.
[6]MacDonald, W., & Farstad, A. (1997, c1995). Believer's Bible
Commentary : Old and New Testaments (1 Co 1:19). Nashville: Thomas
Nelson.
[7]McGee, J. V. (1997, c1981). Thru the Bible commentary. Based on the
Thru the Bible radio program. (electronic ed.) (5:10-11). Nashville: Thomas
Nelson.
[8]Courson, J. (2003). Jon Courson's Application Commentary (1014).
Nashville, TN: Thomas Nelson.
[9]McGee, J. V. (1997, c1981). Thru the Bible commentary. Based on the
Thru the Bible radio program. (electronic ed.) (5:11-12). Nashville: Thomas
Nelson.
[10]Barton, B. B., & Osborne, G. R. (1999). 1 & 2 Corinthians. Life
application Bible commentary (32). Wheaton, Ill.: Tyndale House.
nlt Scripture quotations marked NLT are taken from the Holy Bible, New
Living Translation, copyright © 1996. Used by permission of Tyndale House
Publishers, Inc., Wheaton, Illinois 60189. All rights reserved.
[11]Barton, B. B., & Osborne, G. R. (1999). 1 & 2 Corinthians. Life
application Bible commentary (32). Wheaton, Ill.: Tyndale House.
[12]Barton, B. B., & Osborne, G. R. (1999). 1 & 2 Corinthians. Life
application Bible commentary (33). Wheaton, Ill.: Tyndale House.
[13]MacArthur, J. (1993). Ashamed of the gospel : When the Church becomes
like the world (12). Wheaton, Ill.: Crossway Books.
[14]Lloyd-Jones, D. M. (2000). Authentic Christianity (1st U.S. ed.) (291).
Wheaton, Ill.: Crossway Books.
.
User: "Bill M"

Title: Re: Religious threat routine now at risk? 16 Jul 2007 06:38:03 PM
More Biblical nonsense!
"Somebody Who Loves You" <Somebody Who Loves You_fan_club@yahoo.com> wrote
in message news:13d5ih.r7p.19.1@news.alt.net...

"Pro-Humanist FREELOVER" <prohumanist@gr8mail.com> wrote in message

news:469bbb3b$0$29419$a82e2bb9@reader.athenanews.com...


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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zrmDWn6awMA

"The best way to drive out the devil, if he will
not yield to texts of Scripture, is to jeer and
flout him, for he cannot bear scorn."


. Wisdom


(1 Corinthians 1:18-25 NASB)

The Wisdom of God

18 For the word of the cross is ?a?foolishness to ?b?those who

?1?are

perishing, but to us who ?2?are being saved it is ?c?the power of

God.


19 For it is written,

"?a?I will destroy the wisdom of the wise,

And the cleverness of the clever I will set aside."

20 ?a?Where is the wise man? Where is the scribe? Where is the

debater

of ?b?this age? Has not God ?c?made foolish the wisdom of ?d?the

world?


21 For since in the wisdom of God ?a?the world through its wisdom

did

not come to know God, ?b?God was well-pleased through the
?c?foolishness of the ?1?message preached to ?d?save those who

believe.


22 For indeed ?a?Jews ask for ?1?signs and Greeks search for

wisdom;


23 but we preach ?1??a?Christ crucified, ?b?to Jews a stumbling

block

and to Gentiles ?c?foolishness,

24 but to those who are ?a?the called, both Jews and Greeks,

Christ

?b?the power of God and ?c?the wisdom of God.

25 Because the ?a?foolishness of God is wiser than men, and

?b?the

weakness of God is stronger than men.

[1]


The cross divides men. The cross divides the saved from the unsaved, but

it

doesn't divide the saved people. It should unite them, you see. A Dutch

artist

painted a picture called "The Last Judgment." It depicts the throne of

God, and

away from that throne the lost are falling into space. And as they fall,

they cling

together. This is an accurate picture of the one world that men are

working for

today. The lost want to come together in one great unity, and they are

going to

accomplish a great union in the last days. But cutting across the grain of

the

ecumenical environment and the contemporary thought is the gospel of

Christ.

Lord Jesus called Himself a divider of men, and the dividing line is His

cross.

The preaching of the Cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto

the saved

person it is the power of God.

Paul makes it very clear that his method was not in the wisdom of the

words of

the world, not in the method of dialectics of divisions or differences or

opinions

or theories, but he just presented the cross of Christ. That brought about

a unity

of those who were saved. To those who perish, the cross of Christ is
foolishness; but to the saved man it becomes the power of God. The cross

of

Christ divides the world, but it does not divide the church.

[2]


1 Corinthians 1:18 (a)

For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness.

The literal translation would more correctly render this verse: "For the
preaching of the Cross is to them that are perishing foolishness." When we

tell

people that Jesus loves them, died in place of them, and offers a new life

to

them, those who are perishing just don't get it because to deny one's self

and

take up the Cross seems foolish to them.

[3]


1 Corinthians 1:18 (b)

.but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.

Again, a more literal rendering of this verse would be ".but unto us which

are

being saved, it is the power of God." Salvation is, in a sense,

progressive.

When you opened your heart to Jesus Christ, you were saved from the

penalty

of sin. Day by day, we're saved from the power of sin. And when Jesus

comes

to take us to heaven, we'll be saved from the presence of sin. The message

of

the Cross gives hope when I have failed because Jesus' blood cleanses me
from all sin. It also gives direction to the way I live, for it is only

when I deny

myself and take up the Cross that I find life (Matthew 10:38, 39).

1:18 The message (logos) of the Cross, in contrast to the speech (logos)

of

human wisdom (v. 17), has the Cross as its central theme. When people hear

it,

it produces opposite effects in those who are on the way to perdition and

in

those on the way to glory. Paul contrasted foolishness and weakness with
wisdom and power (cf. Rom. 1:16).

"What would you think if a woman came to work wearing earrings stamped
with an image of the mushroom cloud of the atomic bomb dropped over
Hiroshima?

"What would you think of a church building adorned with a fresco of the
massed graves at Auschwitz? . . .

"The same sort of shocking horror was associated with cross and

crucifixion in

the first century."30

[4]


1 Corinthians 1:19, 20

For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring

to nothing

the understanding of the prudent. Where is the wise? where is the scribe?
where is the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom

of

this world?

"Where are the debaters, scribes, and thinkers? Where are the

psychiatrists

and psychologists?" asks Paul. "What have they done for your culture?

Hasn't

God made foolish the wisdom of the world?"

We can either become depressed over the foolish political and judicial
decisions of our leaders-or we can realize they are exactly what God

planned

to do all along. We won't be upset if we realize that even the foolishness

of the

world is part of God's plan.

1:20 The first three questions in this verse recall similar questions that

Isaiah

voiced when the Assyrians' plans to destroy Jerusalem fell through (Isa.

33:18;

cf. Job 12:17; Isa. 19:12). Paul's references to the age (Gr. aion) and

the world

(kosmos) clarify that he was speaking of purely natural wisdom in contrast

to

the wisdom that God has revealed. God's wisdom centers on the Cross.

"In first-century Corinth, 'wisdom' was not understood to be practical

skill in

living under the fear of the Lord (as it frequently is in Proverbs), nor

was it

perceived to be some combination of intuition, insight, and people smarts

(as it

frequently is today in the West). Rather, wisdom was a public philosophy,

a

well-articulated world-view that made sense of life and ordered the

choices,

values, and priorities of those who adopted it. The 'wise man,' then, was
someone who adopted and defended one of the many competing public world-
views. Those who were 'wise' in this sense might have been Epicureans or
Stoics or Sophists or Platonists, but they had this in common: they

claimed to

be able to 'make sense' out of life and death and the universe."31

[5]


S. Lewis Johnson in The Wycliffe Bible Commentary notes that in context

these

"words are God's denouncement of the policy of the 'wise' in Judah in

seeking

an alliance with Egypt when threatened by Sennacherib."? 2 How true it is

that

God delights to accomplish His purposes in ways that seem foolish to men.
How often He uses methods that the wise of this world would ridicule, yet

they

achieve the desired results with wonderful accuracy and efficiency. For
example, man's wisdom assures him that he can earn or merit his own

salvation.

The gospel sets aside all man's efforts to save himself and presents

Christ as the

only way to God.

[6]


1 Corinthians 1:21

For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it
pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.

People have their hope restored in the big picture of eternity through

that which

the world deems foolish: the preaching of the Word. Paul doesn't say that
people are saved by the preaching of foolishness. You'll know the

difference

between the preaching that is the power of God and the preaching of
foolishness by one simple rule of thumb: Does what is being said match up

with

the Scriptures? Is it seen specifically in the life of Jesus? Is it

practiced

throughout the Book of Acts? Is it taught by Paul in the Epistles? In

other

words, is it consistent with the entire New Testament?

Every true teaching, doctrine, and practice is seen in the life of Jesus,

practiced

in the Book of Acts, and taught by Paul in the Epistles. Therefore, if a

teacher

of preacher suggests something that doesn't match up in all those areas,

reject

it. Because there is enough in the Word to keep us busy for every day of

our

lives, there is no need to supplement it with deviant doctrine or bizarre
practices.

1 Corinthians 1:22, 23 (a)

For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom: But we

preach

Christ crucified.

Whether relating to marriage or government, depression or addiction,

parenting,

finances, or doubt, the Cross is indeed the crux of every matter.

Notice that Paul divides mankind into two great ethnic groups: the Jews

and the

Greeks (meaning Gentiles). He recognizes this twofold division. The Jew
represented religion. He had a God-given religion. The Jews felt that they

had

the truth, and they did-as far as the Old Testament was concerned. The
problem was that it had become just a ritual to them. They had departed

from

the Scriptures and followed tradition, which was their interpretation of

the

Scriptures. The power was gone. Therefore, when Christ appeared, they

asked

for a sign. Rather than turning to their Scriptures, they asked for a

sign. "Then

certain of the scribes and of the Pharisees answered, saying, Master, we

would

see a sign from thee. But he answered and said unto them, An evil and
adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be

given to it,

but the sign of the prophet Jonas: For as Jonas was three days and three

nights

in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three

nights in

the heart of the earth" (Matt. 12:38-40). The Lord Jesus gave to them the

sign

of resurrection.

[7]


1 Corinthians 1:23 (b)-25

.unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness; but unto
them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and
the wisdom of God. Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and

the

weakness of God is stronger than men.

The Jews stumble at the crucified Christ. Why? They were looking for a
Messiah to lead them militarily and provide for them economically.

Therefore,

when Jesus came on the scene and was nailed to a Cross, they discounted

Him

immediately. Today we see crosses around necks, on bookmarks, or above
churches. In Jesus' day, however, this would have been equivalent to

wearing a

little gold electric chair around one's neck, attaching a mini gas chamber

to a

bookmark, or hanging a noose atop a church.

The Greeks didn't find the Cross to be humiliating. They found it to be

too

simple. And the Greek mind-set is still present today in those who think

the

preaching of the Cross is too simple, that it doesn't deal with the

dysfunctional

families, drug addictions, and cultural differences of our complex

culture. We

who have personally experienced its power know otherwise.

[8]


"What is truth?" asked the fatalistic Pilate. Bacon asked the same

question, and

philosophy is still asking that question. Philosophy still has no answers

to the

problems of life. "Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the

disputer

of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world?"

Someone has defined philosophy as a blind man in a dark room looking for a
black cat that isn't there. The Greeks sought after wisdom. Today man is

still

searching for some theory or formula, and he thinks that it is through

science

that he will get the answers to some of the questions of life. Do you

think that

man today has the answers to the questions of life? I was interested in a
statement which I found in a periodical: "The truth is that modern man is
overimpressed by his own achievements. To put a rocket into an orbit that

is

more than a hundred miles from the surface of the earth takes a great deal

of

joint thought and effort, but we tend to overstate the case. Though men

who

ride a few miles above the earth are called astronauts, this is clearly a
misnomer. Men will not be astronauts until they ride among the stars, and

it is

important to remember that most of the stars are thousands of lightyears

away.

The Russians are even more unrestrained in their overstatements, calling

their

men cosmonauts. Someone needs to say, 'Little man, don't take yourself

quite

so seriously.'"

Man today thinks he has a few answers. Where are the wise today? It is a
good question to ask. You see, God has made foolish the wisdom of this
world.

"For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it
pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe."

This is

a tremendous statement.

"But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumbling block, and unto

the

Greeks foolishness." The Jews found the Cross to be a stumblingblock, a
skandalon. They wanted a sign. They wanted someone to show the way. They
wanted a pointer, a highway marker. They would have accepted a deliverer

on

a white charger who was putting down the power of Rome. But a crucified
Christ was an insult to them. That meant defeat-not victory. They didn't

want

to accept that at all. "As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a

stumblingstone and

rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed"

(Rom.

9:33). And Peter wrote this: "Unto you therefore which believe he is

precious:

but unto them which be disobedient, the stone which the builders

disallowed,

the same is made the head of the corner, And a stone of stumbling, and a

rock

of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient:
whereunto also they were appointed" (1 Pet. 2:7-8). A crucified Christ was

a

stumblingblock to the Jew.

To the Greeks (or Gentiles) the cross was foolishness, an absurdity. They
considered it utterly preposterous and ridiculous and contrary to any

rational,

worldly system. In Rome there has been found a caricature of Christianity,

a

figure on the cross with an *****' head. Also in our day our Savior is being
ridiculed.

Now Paul bears down on philosophy. While he was in the city of Corinth, he
was preaching Christ. "And when they opposed themselves, and blasphemed,
he shook his raiment, and said unto them, Your blood be upon your own
heads; I am clean: from henceforth I will go unto the Gentiles" (Acts

18:6). Can

philosophy lift man out of the cesspool of this life? It never has. Notice

that men

will be saved, not by foolish preaching, but by the preaching of

"foolishness,"

that is, by the preaching of the Cross. It is not the method but the

message that

the natural man considers foolish. Men still reject it. Today the wisdom

of the

world is to have an antipoverty program or some other kind of program. Or

the

wisdom of the world is to save man from his problems by education. May I

say

that what man needs today is the gospel. The wisdom of the world has never
considered that.

Now Paul introduces another class of mankind. "Unto them which are called,
both Jews and Greeks"-these are the called, the elect. They have not only
heard the invitation, they have responded to it. And they have found in

the cross

of Christ the wisdom and power of God which has transformed their lives,
made them new men. The Lord Jesus molded eleven men, then called Saul of
Tarsus, and sent them out. They took the gospel to Corinth with its sin,

to

Ephesus with its religion. For over nineteen hundred years the gospel has

been

going around the world, and it is the only help and the only hope of

mankind.


[9]


Evangelist, speaking to Christian after Christian's encounter with Worldly
Wiseman: "I will now show thee who it was that deluded thee. . That man
that met thee is one Worldly Wiseman; and rightly is he so called; partly
because he savoreth only of the doctrine of this world (therefore he

always

goes to the town of Morality to church), and partly because he loveth that
doctrine best, for it saveth him from the Cross."

John Bunyan in The Pilgrim's Progress

[10]


SILLY, SUPERFICIAL, AND SIMPLE

Paul had literally been where no man had gone before. He had taken the

gospel

to uncharted territories and untested hearers. He understood rejection.

When

Paul mentioned audience reactions (1:21), he had the scars to prove just

how

violently some resisted the gospel. Problems in sharing the gospel were

not

theoretical for Paul.

Those who proclaim the gospel may find that others think they are

ridiculous. If

our message did not hold the answer to life and death it might seem silly

and

superficial. Though some ridicule it, the gospel remains the simple truth.

Paul

described the attitude we ought to have this way: "For I am not ashamed of

this

Good News about Christ. It is the power of God at work, saving everyone
who believes-Jews first and also Gentiles" (Romans 1:16 nlt). Like Paul,

we

must proclaim the simple gospel.

[11]


MIXED REACTIONS

The Good News of Jesus Christ still sounds foolish to many and offensive

to

others. It is foolishness to any who have chosen another way to face their
unavoidable appointment with death and what comes after. It is offensive

to

those who attempt to maintain a facade of self-righteousness or

self-confidence

in the face of life's questions. Those who cannot consider their own

sinfulness

will find that the gospel offers a solution they insist they do not need.

Our

society worships power, influence, and wealth. Jesus came as a humble,

poor

servant, and he offers his kingdom to those who have faith, not to those

who

work hard or improve themselves. This may look ridiculous to the world,

but

Christ is our power, the only way we can be saved. Make sure you know
Christ personally; then you'll have the greatest wisdom anyone could

desire.


[12]


What Is Pragmatism?

Pragmatism is the notion that meaning or worth is determined by practical
consequences. It is closely akin to utilitarianism, the belief that

usefulness is the

standard of what is good. To a pragmatist/utilitarian, if a technique or

course of

action has the desired effect, it is good. If it doesn't seem to work, it

must be

wrong.

Pragmatism as a philosophy was developed and popularized at the end of the
last century by philosopher William James, along with such other noted
intellectuals as John Dewey and George Santayana. It was James who gave

the

new philosophy its name and shape. In 1907, he published a collection of
lectures entitled Pragmatism: A New Name for Some Old Ways of Thinking,
and thus defined a whole new approach to truth and life.

Pragmatism has roots in Darwinism and secular humanism. It is inherently
relativistic, rejecting the notion of absolute right and wrong, good and

evil, truth

and error. Pragmatism ultimately defines truth as that which is useful,
meaningful, and helpful. Ideas that don't seem workable or relevant are
rejected as false.

What's wrong with pragmatism? After all, common sense involves a measure

of

legitimate pragmatism, doesn't it? If a dripping faucet works fine after

you

replace the washers, for example, it is reasonable to assume that bad

washers

were the problem. If the medicine your doctor prescribes produces harmful
side effects or has no effect at all, you need to ask if there's a remedy

that

works. Such simple pragmatic realities are generally self-evident.

But when pragmatism is used to make judgments about right and wrong, or
when it becomes a guiding philosophy of life, theology, and ministry,

inevitably it

clashes with Scripture. Spiritual and biblical truth is not determined by

testing

what "works" and what doesn't. We know from Scripture, for example, that
the gospel often does not produce a positive response (1 Cor. 1:22, 23;

2:14).

On the other hand, satanic lies and deception can be quite effective

(Matt.

24:23, 24; 2 Cor. 4:3, 4). Majority reaction is no test of validity (cf

Matt. 7:13,

14), and prosperity is no measure of truthfulness (cf Job 12:6).

Pragmatism as a

guiding philosophy of ministry is inherently flawed. Pragmatism as a test

of truth

is nothing short of satanic.

[13]


Thinking Again

Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out,

when

the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord.

-Acts 3:19

Peter had preached to the crowd in the temple: Jesus Christ crucified,

risen,

ascended; Jesus Christ coming again; Jesus Christ the great Deliverer; the
baptizer with the Holy Spirit; Jesus Christ who alone can refresh us and

give us

new life and health and vigor and strength. He had expounded all that, but

still

he had not finished, and we have not finished. God forbid that we should

finish

without looking at this subject that is left here for us to consider. Far

too often

we stop at the wrong point, we do not go all the way, but here it is.

In the light of all this, said Peter, "Repent ye therefore ." Here is the

focus of

the whole sermon, and this is the point that pierces. This is an essential

and a

vital part of the preaching of the Gospel, and the first thing we must

realize is

that this message, this Gospel, is not something theoretical and academic.

It is

not just one of a number of views of life that you can take up and read

about or

listen to lectures or sermons concerning it and still remain in the

position of a

spectator. One can have an intellectual interest in various subjects-"Very
good, very intriguing, very enjoyable." But this is not like that; this is

the most

practical thing in the world. This is something that concerns life and

living. This

is a life and death matter.

This emphasis was present, in exactly the same way, in the sermon Peter
preached on the day of Pentecost, and it characterizes the whole of the

New

Testament teaching. It is a note of urgency: "Repent ye therefore ." Peter

was

urgent and insistent. He was not entertaining these people. He was not

just out

to deliver an address. He was not a kind of orator. Not at all! This man

had

been a fisherman, but suddenly he had been called and commissioned. He had
been sent to do something, and he was alive. He was alert. He was

insistent

and urgent. He said, "Repent." He pressed his message upon his listeners,

and

thereby he showed them that it was not just of general or theoretical

interest. It

is the most urgent and practical thing in the world. So he pleaded with

the

people.

[14]


-----------------------------------------------------------------------

-----


a 1 Cor 1:21, 23, 25; 2:14; 4:10
b Acts 2:47; 2 Cor 2:15; 4:3; 2 Thess 2:10
1 Or perish
2 Or are saved
c Rom 1:16; 1 Cor 1:24
a Is 29:14
a Job 12:17; Is 19:11f; 33:18
b Matt 13:22; 1 Cor 2:6, 8; 3:18, 19
c Rom 1:20ff
d John 12:31; 1 Cor 1:27f; 6:2; 11:32; James 4:4
a John 12:31; 1 Cor 1:27f; 6:2; 11:32; James 4:4
b Luke 12:32; Gal 1:15; Col 1:19
c 1 Cor 1:18, 23, 25; 2:14; 4:10
1 Lit preaching
d Rom 11:14; James 5:20
a Matt 12:38
1 Or attesting miracles
1 I.e. Messiah
a 1 Cor 2:2; Gal 3:1; 5:11
b Luke 2:34; 1 Pet 2:8
c 1 Cor 1:18, 21, 25; 2:14; 4:10
a Rom 8:28
b Rom 1:16; 1 Cor 1:18
c Luke 11:49; 1 Cor 1:30
a 1 Cor 1:18, 21, 23; 2:14; 4:10
b 2 Cor 13:4

[1]New American Standard Bible : 1995 update. 1995 (1 Co 1:18-25).
LaHabra, CA: The Lockman Foundation.

[2]McGee, J. V. (1997, c1981). Thru the Bible commentary. Based on the
Thru the Bible radio program. (electronic ed.) (5:10). Nashville: Thomas
Nelson.

[3]Courson, J. (2003). Jon Courson's Application Commentary (1014).
Nashville, TN: Thomas Nelson.

30 30. D. A. Carson, The Cross & Christian Ministry, p. 12.

[4]Tom Constable. (2003; 2003). Tom Constable's Expository Notes on the
Bible (1 Co 1:18). Galaxie Software.

31 31. Ibid., pp. 15-16.

[5]Tom Constable. (2003; 2003). Tom Constable's Expository Notes on the
Bible (1 Co 1:20). Galaxie Software.

? 2 (1:19) S. Lewis Johnson, "First Corinthians," The Wycliffe Bible
Commentary, p. 1232.

[6]MacDonald, W., & Farstad, A. (1997, c1995). Believer's Bible
Commentary : Old and New Testaments (1 Co 1:19). Nashville: Thomas
Nelson.

[7]McGee, J. V. (1997, c1981). Thru the Bible commentary. Based on the
Thru the Bible radio program. (electronic ed.) (5:10-11). Nashville:

Thomas

Nelson.

[8]Courson, J. (2003). Jon Courson's Application Commentary (1014).
Nashville, TN: Thomas Nelson.

[9]McGee, J. V. (1997, c1981). Thru the Bible commentary. Based on the
Thru the Bible radio program. (electronic ed.) (5:11-12). Nashville:

Thomas

Nelson.

[10]Barton, B. B., & Osborne, G. R. (1999). 1 & 2 Corinthians. Life
application Bible commentary (32). Wheaton, Ill.: Tyndale House.

nlt Scripture quotations marked NLT are taken from the Holy Bible, New
Living Translation, copyright © 1996. Used by permission of Tyndale House
Publishers, Inc., Wheaton, Illinois 60189. All rights reserved.

[11]Barton, B. B., & Osborne, G. R. (1999). 1 & 2 Corinthians. Life
application Bible commentary (32). Wheaton, Ill.: Tyndale House.

[12]Barton, B. B., & Osborne, G. R. (1999). 1 & 2 Corinthians. Life
application Bible commentary (33). Wheaton, Ill.: Tyndale House.

[13]MacArthur, J. (1993). Ashamed of the gospel : When the Church becomes
like the world (12). Wheaton, Ill.: Crossway Books.

[14]Lloyd-Jones, D. M. (2000). Authentic Christianity (1st U.S. ed.)

(291).

Wheaton, Ill.: Crossway Books.


.
User: "Immortalist"

Title: Re: Religious threat routine now at risk? 17 Jul 2007 11:23:47 AM
On Jul 16, 4:38 pm, "Bill M" <wm...@bellsouth.net> wrote:


More Biblical nonsense!

Don't throw the baby out with the bathwater.
We use this expression when we want to keep the valuable things when
we get rid of the things we don't want. It is usually used in the
negative to mean that we don't want to throw out the good stuff when
we throw out the bad stuff.
Example dialogue: Two friends are talking about making changes to a
personal website.
A: I'm going to make some changes to
my website soon.
B: Oh really? What kind of changes? You're
still going to keep the old pages, aren't you?
A: Yes, of course. The old pages will
still be on the site.
B: Oh, good. I don't want you to throw
the baby out with the bathwater.
http://english1010.com/throw_the_baby_out_with_the_bathwater.htm

"Somebody Who Loves You" <Somebody Who Loves You_fan_c...@yahoo.com> wrote
in messagenews:13d5ih.r7p.19.1@news.alt.net...> "Pro-Humanist FREELOVER" <prohuman...@gr8mail.com> wrote in message

news:469bbb3b$0$29419$a82e2bb9@reader.athenanews.com...

.
User: "Michael Gray"

Title: Re: Religious threat routine now at risk? 17 Jul 2007 08:22:51 PM
On Tue, 17 Jul 2007 09:23:47 -0700, Immortalist
<reanimater_2000@yahoo.com> wrote:

On Jul 16, 4:38 pm, "Bill M" <wm...@bellsouth.net> wrote:


More Biblical nonsense!


Don't throw the baby out with the bathwater.

We use this expression when we want to keep the valuable things when
we get rid of the things we don't want. It is usually used in the
negative to mean that we don't want to throw out the good stuff when
we throw out the bad stuff.

Example dialogue: Two friends are talking about making changes to a
personal website.

A: I'm going to make some changes to
my website soon.

B: Oh really? What kind of changes? You're
still going to keep the old pages, aren't you?

A: Yes, of course. The old pages will
still be on the site.

B: Oh, good. I don't want you to throw
the baby out with the bathwater.

http://english1010.com/throw_the_baby_out_with_the_bathwater.htm

"Somebody Who Loves You" <Somebody Who Loves You_fan_c...@yahoo.com> wrote
in messagenews:13d5ih.r7p.19.1@news.alt.net...> "Pro-Humanist FREELOVER" <prohuman...@gr8mail.com> wrote in message

news:469bbb3b$0$29419$a82e2bb9@reader.athenanews.com...

Can the above response be a candidate for the most bizarre
non-sequitur of the year?
.
User: "Immortalist"

Title: Re: Religious threat routine now at risk? 25 Jul 2007 01:49:06 PM
On Jul 17, 6:22 pm, Michael Gray <mikeg...@newsguy.com> wrote:

On Tue, 17 Jul 2007 09:23:47 -0700, Immortalist





<reanimater_2...@yahoo.com> wrote:

On Jul 16, 4:38 pm, "Bill M" <wm...@bellsouth.net> wrote:


More Biblical nonsense!


Don't throw the baby out with the bathwater.


We use this expression when we want to keep the valuable things when
we get rid of the things we don't want. It is usually used in the
negative to mean that we don't want to throw out the good stuff when
we throw out the bad stuff.


Example dialogue: Two friends are talking about making changes to a
personal website.


A: I'm going to make some changes to
my website soon.


B: Oh really? What kind of changes? You're
still going to keep the old pages, aren't you?


A: Yes, of course. The old pages will
still be on the site.


B: Oh, good. I don't want you to throw
the baby out with the bathwater.


http://english1010.com/throw_the_baby_out_with_the_bathwater.htm


"Somebody Who Loves You" <Somebody Who Loves You_fan_c...@yahoo.com> wrote
in messagenews:13d5ih.r7p.19.1@news.alt.net...> "Pro-Humanist FREELOVER" <prohuman...@gr8mail.com> wrote in message


news:469bbb3b$0$29419$a82e2bb9@reader.athenanews.com...


Can the above response be a candidate for the most bizarre
non-sequitur of the year?- Hide quoted text -

Only if your statement about the bible nonsense is quantifiable as
"Some" and not "All" For you to claim that all biblical stuff is
nonsense is probably nonsense.
.
User: "Mike"

Title: Re: Religious threat routine now at risk? 27 Jul 2007 01:41:18 PM
Immortalist wrote:

On Jul 17, 6:22 pm, Michael Gray <mikeg...@newsguy.com> wrote:

On Tue, 17 Jul 2007 09:23:47 -0700, Immortalist





<reanimater_2...@yahoo.com> wrote:

On Jul 16, 4:38 pm, "Bill M" <wm...@bellsouth.net> wrote:

More Biblical nonsense!

Don't throw the baby out with the bathwater.
We use this expression when we want to keep the valuable things when
we get rid of the things we don't want. It is usually used in the
negative to mean that we don't want to throw out the good stuff when
we throw out the bad stuff.
Example dialogue: Two friends are talking about making changes to a
personal website.
A: I'm going to make some changes to
my website soon.
B: Oh really? What kind of changes? You're
still going to keep the old pages, aren't you?
A: Yes, of course. The old pages will
still be on the site.
B: Oh, good. I don't want you to throw
the baby out with the bathwater.
http://english1010.com/throw_the_baby_out_with_the_bathwater.htm

The above example of how this phrase is used is incorrect, since "don't
throw the baby out with the bathwater" implies that you're discarding
some part of the system but warning to not discard it all. The above
quoted example implies keeping the WHOLE old system and simply adding to
it. So it wouldn't be a proper use of the phrase at all.

"Somebody Who Loves You" <Somebody Who Loves You_fan_c...@yahoo.com> wrote
in messagenews:13d5ih.r7p.19.1@news.alt.net...> "Pro-Humanist FREELOVER" <prohuman...@gr8mail.com> wrote in message
news:469bbb3b$0$29419$a82e2bb9@reader.athenanews.com...

Can the above response be a candidate for the most bizarre
non-sequitur of the year?- Hide quoted text -


Only if your statement about the bible nonsense is quantifiable as
"Some" and not "All" For you to claim that all biblical stuff is
nonsense is probably nonsense.

Nowhere in "more biblical nonsense" was it stated/implied that "all the
bible is nonsense."
.
User: "David V."

Title: Re: Religious threat routine now at risk? 27 Jul 2007 02:11:50 PM
Mike wrote:

Immortalist wrote:

On Jul 17, 6:22 pm, Michael Gray <mikeg...@newsguy.com>
wrote:

On Tue, 17 Jul 2007 09:23:47 -0700, Immortalist
<reanimater_2...@yahoo.com> wrote:

On Jul 16, 4:38 pm, "Bill M" <wm...@bellsouth.net>
wrote:

More Biblical nonsense!


Don't throw the baby out with the bathwater. We use this
expression when we want to keep the valuable things
when we get rid of the things we don't want......


The above example of how this phrase is used is incorrect,
since "don't throw the baby out with the bathwater" implies
that you're discarding some part of the system but warning to
not discard it all. The above quoted example implies keeping
the WHOLE old system and simply adding to it. So it wouldn't
be a proper use of the phrase at all.

It also implies that there was a "baby" in the bath water. In the
case of religion, there is no baby, and not even any bath water.
It's all a myth. So, we're not throwing out anything valuable,
but cleansing society of a belief in an ancient myth and other
forms of superstition.

Nowhere in "more biblical nonsense" was it stated/implied that
"all the bible is nonsense."

It can. Since there is nothing in the bible that is not nonsense
that can not be found in more recent, more relevant, books and
ideas; there is no reason to keep up a belief in the bible and
the superstitions contained within.
--
Dave
"Sacred cows make the best hamburger." Mark Twain.
.
User: "Day Brown"

Title: Re: Religious threat routine now at risk? 27 Jul 2007 10:44:04 PM
On Jul 27, 3:11 pm, "David V." <s...@hotmail.com> wrote:

It can. Since there is nothing in the bible that is not nonsense
that can not be found in more recent, more relevant, books and
ideas; there is no reason to keep up a belief in the bible and
the superstitions contained within.

Agreed, but not all religions are equally insane. Some actually
produce peace rather than preaching about it.
.
User: "David V."

Title: Re: Religious threat routine now at risk? 27 Jul 2007 11:09:02 PM
Day Brown wrote:

On Jul 27, 3:11 pm, "David V." <s...@hotmail.com> wrote:

It can. Since there is nothing in the bible that is not
nonsense that can not be found in more recent, more
relevant, books and ideas; there is no reason to keep up a
belief in the bible and the superstitions contained within.


Agreed, but not all religions are equally insane. Some
actually produce peace rather than preaching about it.

I have yet to see one do that.
--
Dave
"Sacred cows make the best hamburger." Mark Twain.
.

User: "Al Klein"

Title: Re: Religious threat routine now at risk? 30 Jul 2007 04:47:08 PM
On Fri, 27 Jul 2007 20:44:04 -0700, Day Brown <daybrown@hughes.net>
wrote:

Agreed, but not all religions are equally insane.

Believing in a supernatural creator of the universe is a form of
insanity. Believing that such a creator would care what happens to an
individual member of one of, probably, billions of intelligent species
in the universe he created, is insanity squared.
.

User: "Michael Gray"

Title: Re: Religious threat routine now at risk? 28 Jul 2007 03:16:26 AM
On Fri, 27 Jul 2007 20:44:04 -0700, Day Brown <daybrown@hughes.net>
wrote:

On Jul 27, 3:11 pm, "David V." <s...@hotmail.com> wrote:

It can. Since there is nothing in the bible that is not nonsense
that can not be found in more recent, more relevant, books and
ideas; there is no reason to keep up a belief in the bible and
the superstitions contained within.

Agreed, but not all religions are equally insane. Some actually
produce peace rather than preaching about it.

Examples, please...
.




User: "Michael Gray"

Title: Re: Religious threat routine now at risk? 26 Jul 2007 07:13:20 PM
On Wed, 25 Jul 2007 11:49:06 -0700, Immortalist
<reanimater_2000@yahoo.com> wrote:

On Jul 17, 6:22 pm, Michael Gray <mikeg...@newsguy.com> wrote:

On Tue, 17 Jul 2007 09:23:47 -0700, Immortalist





<reanimater_2...@yahoo.com> wrote:

On Jul 16, 4:38 pm, "Bill M" <wm...@bellsouth.net> wrote:


More Biblical nonsense!


Don't throw the baby out with the bathwater.


We use this expression when we want to keep the valuable things when
we get rid of the things we don't want. It is usually used in the
negative to mean that we don't want to throw out the good stuff when
we throw out the bad stuff.


Example dialogue: Two friends are talking about making changes to a
personal website.


A: I'm going to make some changes to
my website soon.


B: Oh really? What kind of changes? You're
still going to keep the old pages, aren't you?


A: Yes, of course. The old pages will
still be on the site.


B: Oh, good. I don't want you to throw
the baby out with the bathwater.


http://english1010.com/throw_the_baby_out_with_the_bathwater.htm


"Somebody Who Loves You" <Somebody Who Loves You_fan_c...@yahoo.com> wrote
in messagenews:13d5ih.r7p.19.1@news.alt.net...> "Pro-Humanist FREELOVER" <prohuman...@gr8mail.com> wrote in message


news:469bbb3b$0$29419$a82e2bb9@reader.athenanews.com...


Can the above response be a candidate for the most bizarre
non-sequitur of the year?- Hide quoted text -


Only if your statement about the bible nonsense is quantifiable as
"Some" and not "All" For you to claim that all biblical stuff is
nonsense is probably nonsense.

And I am entering that incoherent response for second place.
Keep it up.
You'll be out of that straight jacket in no time!
.
User: "Robibnikoff"

Title: Re: Religious threat routine now at risk? 27 Jul 2007 10:46:49 AM
"Michael Gray" <mikegray@newsguy.com> wrote in message
news:j3eia3p2qt3t1aks5s798ro9nqcbgffmqv@4ax.com...

On Wed, 25 Jul 2007 11:49:06 -0700, Immortalist
<reanimater_2000@yahoo.com> wrote:

On Jul 17, 6:22 pm, Michael Gray <mikeg...@newsguy.com> wrote:

On Tue, 17 Jul 2007 09:23:47 -0700, Immortalist





<reanimater_2...@yahoo.com> wrote:

On Jul 16, 4:38 pm, "Bill M" <wm...@bellsouth.net> wrote:


More Biblical nonsense!


Don't throw the baby out with the bathwater.


We use this expression when we want to keep the valuable things when
we get rid of the things we don't want. It is usually used in the
negative to mean that we don't want to throw out the good stuff when
we throw out the bad stuff.


Example dialogue: Two friends are talking about making changes to a
personal website.


A: I'm going to make some changes to
my website soon.


B: Oh really? What kind of changes? You're
still going to keep the old pages, aren't you?


A: Yes, of course. The old pages will
still be on the site.


B: Oh, good. I don't want you to throw
the baby out with the bathwater.


http://english1010.com/throw_the_baby_out_with_the_bathwater.htm


"Somebody Who Loves You" <Somebody Who Loves You_fan_c...@yahoo.com>
wrote
in messagenews:13d5ih.r7p.19.1@news.alt.net...> "Pro-Humanist
FREELOVER" <prohuman...@gr8mail.com> wrote in message


news:469bbb3b$0$29419$a82e2bb9@reader.athenanews.com...


Can the above response be a candidate for the most bizarre
non-sequitur of the year?- Hide quoted text -


Only if your statement about the bible nonsense is quantifiable as
"Some" and not "All" For you to claim that all biblical stuff is
nonsense is probably nonsense.


And I am entering that incoherent response for second place.
Keep it up.
You'll be out of that straight jacket in no time!

You know, some mornings it just doesn't pay to chew through the leather
straps ;)
--
Robyn
Resident Witchypoo
BAAWA Knight!
#1557
.
User: "Frank Mayhar"

Title: Re: Religious threat routine now at risk? 27 Jul 2007 11:33:48 AM
On Fri, 27 Jul 2007 11:46:49 -0400, Robibnikoff wrote:

You know, some mornings it just doesn't pay to chew through the leather
straps ;)

I'm stealing that! :-)
--
Frank Mayhar frank@exit.com http://www.exit.com/
Exit Consulting http://www.gpsclock.com/
http://www.exit.com/blog/frank/
http://www.zazzle.com/fmayhar*
.
User: "Robibnikoff"

Title: Re: Religious threat routine now at risk? 27 Jul 2007 11:46:00 AM
"Frank Mayhar" <frank@exit.com> wrote in message
news:pan.2007.07.27.16.33.44@exit.com...

On Fri, 27 Jul 2007 11:46:49 -0400, Robibnikoff wrote:

You know, some mornings it just doesn't pay to chew through the leather
straps ;)


I'm stealing that! :-)

LOL! Sadly, it's not mine!
http://www.pyramidcollection.com/itemdy00.asp?c=&T1=P25109&SKW=+%20+plaque&PageNo=2
--
Robyn
Resident Witchypoo
BAAWA Knight!
#1557
.







User: "Mark K. Bilbo"

Title: Re: Religious threat routine now at risk? 17 Jul 2007 08:29:48 AM
On Mon, 16 Jul 2007 19:38:03 -0400, Bill M wrote:

More Biblical nonsense!

Isn't that redundant?
--
Mark K. Bilbo a.a. #1423
EAC Department of Linguistic Subversion
------------------------------------------------------------
"What the hell is an aluminum Falcon?"
.


User: ""

Title: Re: Religious threat routine now at risk? 20 Jul 2007 02:02:08 AM
On 16-Jul-2007, "Somebody Who Loves You" <Somebody Who Loves
You_fan_club@yahoo.com> wrote:

"The best way to drive out the devil, if he will
not yield to texts of Scripture, is to jeer and
flout him, for he cannot bear scorn."

I don't think it is possible to drive out the devil, after all, where would
you drive him to?
--
Overheard:"If I am a friend of the family then I at least must be from
Texas. You shouldn't worry your pretty little head about politics, baby, if
it is something that you're curious about, just ask an adult and we'll keep
you informed."
.
User: "Michael Gray"

Title: Re: Religious threat routine now at risk? 20 Jul 2007 09:12:43 PM
On Fri, 20 Jul 2007 07:02:08 GMT,
wrote:


On 16-Jul-2007, "Somebody Who Loves You" <Somebody Who Loves
You_fan_club@yahoo.com> wrote:

"The best way to drive out the devil, if he will
not yield to texts of Scripture, is to jeer and
flout him, for he cannot bear scorn."


I don't think it is possible to drive out the devil, after all, where would
you drive him to?

Washington.
.
User: ""

Title: Re: Religious threat routine now at risk? 22 Jul 2007 02:28:02 PM
On 20-Jul-2007, Michael Gray <
> wrote:

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From: Michael Gray <

>
Newsgroups:
alt.atheism,alt.philosophy,talk.atheism,talk.philosophy.humanism,alt.agnosticism
Subject: Re: Religious threat routine now at risk?
Date: Sat, 21 Jul 2007 11:42:43 +0930
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On Fri, 20 Jul 2007 07:02:08 GMT,
wrote:


On 16-Jul-2007, "Somebody Who Loves You" <Somebody Who Loves
You_fan_club@yahoo.com> wrote:

"The best way to drive out the devil, if he will
not yield to texts of Scripture, is to jeer and
flout him, for he cannot bear scorn."


I don't think it is possible to drive out the devil, after all, where
would
you drive him to?


Washington.

In principle, I think that demon possession is a viable concept only because
if a person thinks or fears that they are demon possessed, then they are.
Demons can't be driven out but they can be seduced... injested... broken
down... dissected... digested... and then excreted. There were plenty of
places to drive demons to in Jesus day and, in fact, pharasees could drive
them out as well.
--
Overheard:"If I am a friend of the family then I at least must be from
Texas. You shouldn't worry your pretty little head about politics, baby, if
it is something that you're curious about, just ask an adult and we'll keep
you informed."
.
User: "Robibnikoff"

Title: Re: Religious threat routine now at risk? 23 Jul 2007 09:47:25 AM
<kmurphy004@houston.rr.com> wrote
snip


In principle, I think that demon possession is a viable concept only
because
if a person thinks or fears that they are demon possessed, then they are.
Demons can't be driven out but they can be seduced... injested... broken
down... dissected... digested... and then excreted. There were plenty of
places to drive demons to in Jesus day and, in fact, pharasees could drive
them out as well.

Are you serious?
--
Robyn
Resident Witchypoo
BAAWA Knight!
#1557
.
User: "jem"

Title: Re: Religious threat routine now at risk? 23 Jul 2007 10:06:45 AM
On Mon, 23 Jul 2007 10:47:25 -0400, "Robibnikoff"
<witchypoo@broomstick.com> wrote:


<kmurphy004@houston.rr.com> wrote

snip


In principle, I think that demon possession is a viable concept only
because
if a person thinks or fears that they are demon possessed, then they are.
Demons can't be driven out but they can be seduced... injested... broken
down... dissected... digested... and then excreted. There were plenty of
places to drive demons to in Jesus day and, in fact, pharasees could drive
them out as well.


Are you serious?

And does this mean that "demons" are a diet issue?
HA!
So there really is "bad" food after all eh? ;)
.
User: "Mike"

Title: Re: Religious threat routine now at risk? 27 Jul 2007 01:46:45 PM
jem wrote:

On Mon, 23 Jul 2007 10:47:25 -0400, "Robibnikoff"
<witchypoo@broomstick.com> wrote:

<kmurphy004@houston.rr.com> wrote

snip

In principle, I think that demon possession is a viable concept only
because
if a person thinks or fears that they are demon possessed, then they are.
Demons can't be driven out but they can be seduced... injested... broken
down... dissected... digested... and then excreted. There were plenty of
places to drive demons to in Jesus day and, in fact, pharasees could drive
them out as well.

Are you serious?


And does this mean that "demons" are a diet issue?
HA!
So there really is "bad" food after all eh? ;)

Nah, just bad liquor.
.



User: "UR Welcome! UR"

Title: Re: Religious threat routine now at risk? 22 Jul 2007 02:32:45 PM
<kmurphy004@houston.rr.com> wrote in message news:46a3af7e$0$7396$882e0bbb@news.ThunderNews.com...


"The best way to drive out the devil, if he will
not yield to texts of Scripture, is to jeer and
flout him, for he cannot bear scorn."


.. (Luke 15:29-32 NASB)
29 “But he answered and said to his father, ‘Look! For so many
years I have been serving you and I have never ?1?neglected a command
of yours; and yet you have never given me a young goat, so that I
might celebrate with my friends;
30 but when this son of yours came, who has devoured your
?1??a?wealth with prostitutes, you killed the fattened calf for him.’
31 “And he said to him, ‘Son, you ?1?have always been with me,
and all that is mine is yours.
32 ‘But we had to celebrate and rejoice, for this brother of
yours was ?a?dead and has begun to live, and was lost and has been
found.’ ”
[1]
15:28–30 The older son was consumed with a jealous rage. He refused to
participate in his father’s joy. J. N. Darby put it well: “Where God’s
happiness is, there self-righteousness cannot come. If God is good to the
sinner, what avails my righteousness?” When his father urged him to
participate in the festivities, he refused, whimpering that the father had
never rewarded him for his faithful service and obedience. He had never
been given as much as a young goat, to say nothing of a fatted calf. He
complained that when the prodigal son returned, after spending his
father’s money on harlots, the father did not hesitate to make a great
feast. Note that he said “this son of yours,” not “my brother.”
15:31, 32 The father’s answer indicated that there is joy connected with
the restoration of a lost one, whereas an obstinate, ungrateful,
unreconciled son produces no cause for celebration.
The older son is an eloquent picture of the scribes and Pharisees. They
resented God’s showing mercy to outrageous sinners. To their way of
thinking, if not to God’s, they had served Him faithfully, had never
transgressed His commandments, and yet had never been properly rewarded
for all of this. The truth of the matter was that they were religious