| Topic: |
Religions > Atheism |
| User: |
"JTEM" |
| Date: |
23 May 2005 01:05:05 AM |
| Object: |
Repost: Homosexuality in ancient Egypt |
This is serious -- no trolling -- and these are real
web sites put together by serious people, not
lunatic new-agers.
And SERIOUS comments/opinions on this?
This first link is the most interesting in my mind, as
the source appears totally credible. Are there
alternative views?
http://www.egyptology.com/niankhkhnum_khnumhotep/
There's plenty of others, but I'll limit myself to one
more, because you don't need 20 cites to offer an
opinion:
http://www.gayegypt.com/aneggaygod.html
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| User: "Saved by Jesus" |
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| Title: Re: Repost: Homosexuality in ancient Egypt |
23 May 2005 07:47:11 AM |
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This is serious -- no trolling -- and these are real
web sites put together by serious people, not
lunatic new-agers.
http://www.egyptology.com/niankhkhnum_khnumhotep/
There's plenty of others, but I'll limit myself to one
more, because you don't need 20 cites to offer an
opinion:
http://www.gayegypt.com/aneggaygod.html
This must be a troll because homosexualists insist that
homosexuality wasn't invented until the 19th century!
How could it have existed in ancient Egypt?
But if it did, it explains why their civilization has
collapsed!
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| User: "Jon Erlandson" |
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| Title: Re: Repost: Homosexuality in ancient Egypt |
28 May 2005 10:55:02 AM |
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"Saved by Jesus" <gymraven@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:mtidnfE1SPsuUwzfRVn-gg@comcast.com...
This is serious -- no trolling -- and these are real
web sites put together by serious people, not
lunatic new-agers.
http://www.egyptology.com/niankhkhnum_khnumhotep/
There's plenty of others, but I'll limit myself to one
more, because you don't need 20 cites to offer an
opinion:
http://www.gayegypt.com/aneggaygod.html
This must be a troll because homosexualists insist that
homosexuality wasn't invented until the 19th century!
How could it have existed in ancient Egypt?
But if it did, it explains why their civilization has
collapsed!
I don't think Egypt "collapsed" but rather passed into some transmigrative
state :)
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| User: "Sour Clayton and Chives Flavoured Pringles...POP" |
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| Title: Re: Repost: Homosexuality in ancient Egypt |
28 May 2005 06:42:03 PM |
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"Jon Erlandson" <jerlands@NOSPAM_sbcglobal.net> wrote in message
news:qv0me.129$Dq7.94@newssvr11.news.prodigy.com...
"Saved by Jesus" <gymraven@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:mtidnfE1SPsuUwzfRVn-gg@comcast.com...
This is serious -- no trolling -- and these are real
web sites put together by serious people, not
lunatic new-agers.
http://www.egyptology.com/niankhkhnum_khnumhotep/
There's plenty of others, but I'll limit myself to one
more, because you don't need 20 cites to offer an
opinion:
http://www.gayegypt.com/aneggaygod.html
This must be a troll because homosexualists insist that
homosexuality wasn't invented until the 19th century!
How could it have existed in ancient Egypt?
But if it did, it explains why their civilization has
collapsed!
I don't think Egypt "collapsed" but rather passed into some transmigrative
state :)
That last few followers of the ancient Egyptian religion were murdered by
Christians...one of the very first acts of genocide carried out in the name
of the cross!!
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| User: "wcb" |
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| Title: Re: Repost: Homosexuality in ancient Egypt |
29 May 2005 09:23:31 AM |
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Jon Erlandson wrote:
"Saved by Jesus" <gymraven@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:mtidnfE1SPsuUwzfRVn-gg@comcast.com...
This is serious -- no trolling -- and these are real
web sites put together by serious people, not
lunatic new-agers.
http://www.egyptology.com/niankhkhnum_khnumhotep/
There's plenty of others, but I'll limit myself to one
more, because you don't need 20 cites to offer an
opinion:
http://www.gayegypt.com/aneggaygod.html
This must be a troll because homosexualists insist that
homosexuality wasn't invented until the 19th century!
How could it have existed in ancient Egypt?
But if it did, it explains why their civilization has
collapsed!
I don't think Egypt "collapsed" but rather passed into some transmigrative
state :)
Egypt became a Roman possession after the battle of Actium.
When the Empire adopted Christianity in 325, that applied
also to Egypt. The Christians slowly strangled all non
orthodox religions, and that was completed by the era of
Theodoisian about 550 CE.
--
When I shake my killfile, I can hear them buzzing!
Cheerful Charlie
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| User: "Jon Erlandson" |
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| Title: Re: Repost: Homosexuality in ancient Egypt |
29 May 2005 11:15:04 AM |
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"wcb" <wbarwell@mylinuxisp.com> wrote in message
news:119jjijgl4hfq7b@corp.supernews.com...
Jon Erlandson wrote:
"Saved by Jesus" <gymraven@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:mtidnfE1SPsuUwzfRVn-gg@comcast.com...
This is serious -- no trolling -- and these are real
web sites put together by serious people, not
lunatic new-agers.
http://www.egyptology.com/niankhkhnum_khnumhotep/
There's plenty of others, but I'll limit myself to one
more, because you don't need 20 cites to offer an
opinion:
http://www.gayegypt.com/aneggaygod.html
This must be a troll because homosexualists insist that
homosexuality wasn't invented until the 19th century!
How could it have existed in ancient Egypt?
But if it did, it explains why their civilization has
collapsed!
I don't think Egypt "collapsed" but rather passed into some
transmigrative
state :)
Egypt became a Roman possession after the battle of Actium.
When the Empire adopted Christianity in 325, that applied
also to Egypt. The Christians slowly strangled all non
orthodox religions, and that was completed by the era of
Theodoisian about 550 CE.
I'm sure you've heard of the "Law of Conservation of Energy" where energy
cannont be created or destroyed but can change it's form? Universal Laws
apply to everything within that Universe and as long as the Universe
survives those laws will be applicable.
--
When I shake my killfile, I can hear them buzzing!
Cheerful Charlie
.
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| User: "DanielSan" |
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| Title: Re: Repost: Homosexuality in ancient Egypt |
23 May 2005 07:41:49 AM |
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Saved by Jesus wrote:
This is serious -- no trolling -- and these are real
web sites put together by serious people, not
lunatic new-agers.
http://www.egyptology.com/niankhkhnum_khnumhotep/
There's plenty of others, but I'll limit myself to one
more, because you don't need 20 cites to offer an
opinion:
http://www.gayegypt.com/aneggaygod.html
This must be a troll because homosexualists insist that
homosexuality wasn't invented until the 19th century!
And what, pray tell, is a "homosexualist"? Can you answer that
question? And who said that it was "invented"? Cite?
How could it have existed in ancient Egypt?
It did.
But if it did, it explains why their civilization has
collapsed!
Probably due to the fact that they prayed to gods.
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| User: "JTEM" |
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| Title: Re: Repost: Homosexuality in ancient Egypt |
23 May 2005 08:02:21 AM |
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"DanielSan" <daniel-san@myrealbox.com> wrote
How could it have existed in ancient Egypt?
It did.
But what was it's nature?
Accepted? Heavily frowned upon? Part of some
ritual acceptable only for priests?
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| User: "Katherine Griffis" |
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| Title: Re: Repost: Homosexuality in ancient Egypt |
23 May 2005 07:57:04 AM |
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JTEM wrote:
This is serious -- no trolling -- and these are real
web sites put together by serious people, not
lunatic new-agers.
And SERIOUS comments/opinions on this?
This first link is the most interesting in my mind, as
the source appears totally credible. Are there
alternative views?
http://www.egyptology.com/niankhkhnum_khnumhotep/
There's plenty of others, but I'll limit myself to one
more, because you don't need 20 cites to offer an
opinion:
http://www.gayegypt.com/aneggaygod.html
What specifically do you want responded to? That homosexuality existed
in Egypt, or specifically about Niankhkhnum and Khnumhotep?
I think the answer to the first is obvious (yes, it did), and as for
the other, Mr. Reeder's opinion is disputed by some "serious"
Egyptologists. Others interpret the pair as bothers or even twins,
which could also account for their closeness in the artwork (Baines
1985; Cherpion 1986). Mr. Reeder's interpretation is not the only one
by any means.
As for the interpretation about Seth (Sutekh) on the other website, I
would say it's taking more than liberty with the myths surrounding this
god than required. Sutekh attempts to rape his nephew Horus as part of
the _power struggle between the two gods_, and Isis knows that
_beforehand_ and to turn the tables on this plan, requires that Horus
allow the homosexual embrace gather Sutekh's semen in his hand, to
later spread around the lettuce plants. Then, when the semen calls out
from Sutekh's own bowels (since he ate the semen-laced lettuce, his
favourite vegetable), the plan to disgrace Horus backfires and Sutekh
becomes the laughingstock of the gods (Griffiths 1960).
The "unification" of Sutekh and Horus is not about Horus, son of Isis,
however, but concerning a deity referred to as the "Elder Horus", who
was _brother_ to Sutekh. Since Horus the Elder represented Lower
Egypt, and Sutekh represented Upper Egypt in early iconography, the
'unification' (/smA tAwy/) of these two deities represent the _unity of
the Two Lands_ (which is the literal meaning of /smA tAwy/), and not a
matter of homosexual union (Nibbi 1997). Similarly, as te Velde (1977)
indicated, with the Elder Horus represented the civilised land of Egypt
and Sutekh, the wild and uninhabited desert lands, this symbols has yet
another layer of meaning of these gods representing the land itself.
Sutekh is acknowledged to have several consorts (Anat, Astarte,
Taweret, for example (te Velde 1977)) - but the goddess Nephthys,
however, is attested as his wife, who flees from him after the murder
of Osiris, who is brother to them both (Osiris and Isis are brother and
sister, as well as husband and wife, just as Nephthys and Sutekh are
similarly related).
te Velde (1968) has noted that Sutekh represents the "trickster"
element in Egyptian mythology - a god who operates 'outside' the
boundaries of civilised behaviour. His unnatural birth from the side
of Nut, his appearance, his function in the temporal plane of
existence (he is the god of abortiofacient events, the brawler who
causes storms, god of foreigners, etc.) shows him to be a god "outside"
the otherwise famially-oriented concept of the gods of Egypt. His
homosexuality is an extension of that "outsider" quality, but as noted
above, it is used as a means of dominion over another deity, and not as
an expression of desire.
In general, the texts indicate that homosexuality was not a desirable
trait, particularly pedophilia with young boys. One of the "negative
statements" on the Books of Coming forth by Dat, made as part of the
Spell 125 Negative Confession by the deceased before the gods in the
afterlife is that 'not have I lain (/nk/) with a young man,' which was
interpreted as a sin which could keep one from receiving a positive
judgment before the gods and disallow the deceased into the afterlife
(Manniche 1997: 22).
Reference:
Baines, J. 1985. Egyptian Twins. Orientalia 54: 461-482.
Cherpion, N. 1986. Deux manucures royaux de la Ve dynastie. In A.
Th=E9odorid=E8s, P. Naster, R. Ries, eds., _Arch=E9ologie et Philologie
dans l'=E9tude des civilisations orientales_: 65-72. Acta Orientalia
Belgica 4. Leuven: Peeters.
Griffiths, J. G. 1960. _The Conflict of Horus and Seth from Egyptian
and Classical Sources. A Study in Ancient Mythology_. Liverpool
Monographs in Archaeology and Oriental Studies. H. W. Fairman, ed.
Liverpool: Liverpool University Press.
Manniche, L. 1997. _Sexual Life in Ancient Egypt_. London: Kegal Paul
International.
Nibbi, A. 1997. Some Notes on the Two Lands of Ancient Egypt and the
"Heraldic" Plants. DE 37: 23-49. (On the iconography of the /smA tAwy/
unification plants between Seth and Horus, and how they represent the
Two Lands of Egypt)
te Velde, H. 1968. The Egyptian God Seth as a Trickster. JARCE 7:
37-40.
____________. 1977. _Seth, God of Confusion. A Study of His Role in
Egyptian Mythology and Religion_. G. E. van Baaren-Pape, transl.
Probleme der =C4gyptologie. 6. W. Helck. Leiden: Brill.
HTH.
Regards --
---
Katherine Griffis-Greenberg, MA (Lon)
Member, International Association of Egyptologists
American Research Center in Egypt, SSEA, ASOR
Oriental Institute
Oriental Studies Doctoral Program [Egyptology]
University of Oxford
Oxford, United Kingdom
http://www.griffis-consulting.com
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| User: "JTEM" |
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| Title: Re: Repost: Homosexuality in ancient Egypt |
23 May 2005 08:22:03 AM |
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"Katherine Griffis" <egylist@griffis-consulting.com> wrote
http://www.egyptology.com/niankhkhnum_khnumhotep/
What specifically do you want responded to? That
homosexuality existed in Egypt, or specifically about
Niankhkhnum and Khnumhotep?
The latter, as that (at least) implies some level of social
awareness/acceptance.
Like it or not, the source (Reeder) does lend a certain
legitimacy to the homosexual relationship idea -- at
least for us laymen types -- because of KMT magazine.
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| User: "Katherine Griffis" |
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| Title: Re: Repost: Homosexuality in ancient Egypt |
24 May 2005 03:43:49 AM |
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JTEM wrote:
"Katherine Griffis" <egylist@griffis-consulting.com> wrote
http://www.egyptology.com/niankhkhnum_khnumhotep/
What specifically do you want responded to? That
homosexuality existed in Egypt, or specifically about
Niankhkhnum and Khnumhotep?
The latter, as that (at least) implies some level of social
awareness/acceptance.
Like it or not, the source (Reeder) does lend a certain
legitimacy to the homosexual relationship idea -- at
least for us laymen types -- because of KMT magazine.
It takes usually only a visit to your local lending library, however,
to achieve access to the articles which argue otherwise, via
inter-library lending.
You asked if there were serious scholastic disagreements with Reeder's
conclusion about these two individuals; there are. That there was a
distaste for homosexuality in the society comes from Egyptian texts
themselves, as I cited earlier.
So, it would appear it is upon you to familiarise yourself with the
reasons against Reeder's proposed interpretation as well.
Your choice.
Done.
Regards --
---
Katherine Griffis-Greenberg, MA (Lon)
Member, International Association of Egyptologists
American Research Center in Egypt, SSEA, ASOR
Oriental Institute
Oriental Studies Doctoral Program [Egyptology]
University of Oxford
Oxford, United Kingdom
http://www.griffis-consulting.com
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| User: "Jon Erlandson" |
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| Title: Re: Repost: Homosexuality in ancient Egypt |
24 May 2005 10:41:03 AM |
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I'm a little confused by name changes that occured during the life of a
person. Was it typical for an Egyptian to keep their birth name or did
their name change as they assumed different positions in society? The names
of these two individuals both reflect some type of union (?) (
http://www.egyptology.com/niankhkhnum_khnumhotep/names.html ) and I was
wondering if it may be their birth names or names later given to them.
Also, I'm under the impression "twins" at birth were not considered a good
thing. Is there anything to that?
"Katherine Griffis" <egylist@griffis-consulting.com> wrote in message
news:1116924229.215014.104900@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
JTEM wrote:
"Katherine Griffis" <egylist@griffis-consulting.com> wrote
http://www.egyptology.com/niankhkhnum_khnumhotep/
What specifically do you want responded to? That
homosexuality existed in Egypt, or specifically about
Niankhkhnum and Khnumhotep?
The latter, as that (at least) implies some level of social
awareness/acceptance.
Like it or not, the source (Reeder) does lend a certain
legitimacy to the homosexual relationship idea -- at
least for us laymen types -- because of KMT magazine.
It takes usually only a visit to your local lending library, however,
to achieve access to the articles which argue otherwise, via
inter-library lending.
You asked if there were serious scholastic disagreements with Reeder's
conclusion about these two individuals; there are. That there was a
distaste for homosexuality in the society comes from Egyptian texts
themselves, as I cited earlier.
So, it would appear it is upon you to familiarise yourself with the
reasons against Reeder's proposed interpretation as well.
Your choice.
Done.
Regards --
---
Katherine Griffis-Greenberg, MA (Lon)
Member, International Association of Egyptologists
American Research Center in Egypt, SSEA, ASOR
Oriental Institute
Oriental Studies Doctoral Program [Egyptology]
University of Oxford
Oxford, United Kingdom
http://www.griffis-consulting.com
.
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| User: "Lamb of God" |
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| Title: Re: Repost: Homosexuality in ancient Egypt |
24 May 2005 04:36:41 PM |
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"Jon Erlandson" <jerlands@NOSPAM_sbcglobal.net> wrote
I'm a little confused by name changes that occured during
the life of a person.
Same here. One book mentioning the subject implied that it
was quite common, while other sources apparently find it
not even worthy of mention.
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| User: "Katherine Griffis" |
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| Title: Re: Repost: Homosexuality in ancient Egypt |
25 May 2005 06:48:14 AM |
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Jon Erlandson wrote:
I'm a little confused by name changes that occured during the life of a
person. Was it typical for an Egyptian to keep their birth name or did
their name change as they assumed different positions in society?<
Not as I am aware: I too noted that Mr. Reeder says on the 'name'
section of the website:
"=2E... We do not know at what point in their lives they assumed these
names."
I am confused as to why he thinks these names are _not_ the men's birth
names, as changing names, particularly birth names which carry the
'essence' of a human being (on this, see the story of the 'naming' of
the triplet kings at birth by goddesses in the Westcar Papyrus) was
quite rare (Aufrere 1989, Ranke 1977 (1949)). The importance of the
naming process is evoked eloquently in the statement of Isis when she
attempts to discern Ra's "secret name," and is told by the eldest god,
in rejecting her request, that his 'true' name was spoken by his
parent/s at birth, and has a magical power:
"=2E.. It [the name] is hidden within the body at birth, so that no
wizard or sorceress is given power over me..."
Another text states the God Amun devises the 'true' name of the king in
3 parts upon his conception, when the god couples with the queen,
basing the names upon the words uttered by the queen during conception
(Ranke 1977 (1949): 3, n. 6). With such power inherent in the birth
name as expressed in Egyptian literature, it would be, to me, very
uncommon for a person, royal or non-royal, to change his name since in
doing so, any history of deeds attached to the previous name would be
forgotten by the gods, and would interfere with the overall essence of
the human being.
Of royalty, I believe only Akhenaten is known to have changed his birth
name, although changing in royal epithetical titulary names (not throne
names) occurred with some frequency from about the time of Thutmose III
onwards in the 18th Dynasty (Hannig 1995: 1273b). In extension, the
_damnatio memoriae_ of Akhenaten's throne and second birth name, where
it was never written or spoken again, but the Atenist king was only
referred to epithetically (as "the rebel," or "the enemy of Akhetaten,"
in the inscription of Mose during the Ramesside period, for example)
confirms the power of the birth (and throne) name/s as sustaining the
essence of the human being, even after death.
The names of these two individuals both reflect some type of union (?)
<http://www.egyptology.com/niankhkhnum_khnumhotep/names.html>
and I was wondering if it may be their birth names or names later given
to them.<
For one, I think Mr. Reeder has been a little liberal in his
translation of the names. For the record, he states at this URL:
"The name Khnum besides being a reference to the god also means 'joined
together' and 'to unite with' and importantly 'associates, companions,
friends,' and even 'house mates.' Their names inscribed together as
they are above, at the entrance to the rock-cut chamber, may be a
design element to suggest a play on words, meaning 'joined in life and
joined in death.'"
Source: <http://www.egyptology.com/niankhkhnum_khnumhotep/names.html>
As far as I can tell from the deity name itself, "Khnum' /Xnmw/, has
the meaning of "creator," "former (as in 'one who forms [something]'),"
"who one establishes (as a creative function)," etc. Khnum is
represented as a deity who formed mankind and the Ennead as a potter
forms a pot on a wheel, in other words. Similar words of /Xnm/ have
the sense of 'assembling and giving content to,' 'combining separate
elements into one,' 'filling and acquiring (content)', etc. (Hannig
1995: 636b-637a), which tend to refer to creative functions and not
about 'joined together,' as in love or companionship, etc. In fact, I
see no interpretation of the /Xnm/ terms which mean 'companion,'
'house-mate,' or Mr. Reeder's reading that the two names mean
"joined/unified in life and death."
Reeder also appears to argue that the term /Htp/ argues somehow for a
reading of 'death' to make his 'closeness of lovers' argument work.
However, I cannot find any reference in the W=F6rterbuch or its
derivative works (such as Hannig 1995 or 2000) which argue for this
translation, not even as a euphemism for "the dead" or "death." The
usual meaning of /Htp/ is either technically "offering table," or more
colloquially, "satisfied" or "fulfilled" (Hannig 1995: 568a-569a),
likely as referring to the expected result when the god or the dead are
offered food on a /Htp/ offering table. While the dead are said to be
in a state of /Htp/, this would mean similarly to the term of "resting
in peace" as we refer to memorialising the dead today in the afterlife,
or, in more of the Egyptian mindset, being "fullfilled" into their
final transformation into an akh /Ax/. Perhaps Mr. Reeder could
explain his translation of /Htp/ =3D 'death' more fully, because I seem
to be missing it.
Also, I'm under the impression "twins" at birth were not considered a good
thing. Is there anything to that?
Not in Egyptian culture, but the antipathy to twins was attested in
other ANE and African cultures (Baines 1985: 471, n. 44, n. 46; 478-80,
n=2E 75-78, where ancient and modern superstitions about twin births and
twins in general are discussed), and where many times they were killed
at birth. This apparently was not true in ancient Egypt, where the
entire godhead group of Heliopolis is based upon the various twin
births emitting from from Atum - first, two sets of fraternal twins
(Shu and Tefnut, who then give birth to the fraternal twins Nut and
Geb), and then two sets of (presumably) identical twins (Seth and
Osiris; Isis and Nephthys), thus completing the first Ennead (set of 9
gods).
As Baines noted in his article on twins in ancient Egypt (1985: 471),
the phenomena and acceptance of the twinning condition was common
enough for usually only passing mention in most Egyptian texts. The
most unequivocal statement we have of Egyptian twins comes from the
stela of Suty and Hor (meaning 'Seth and Horus,' another well-known set
of twinned brothers, according to the ancient Egyptian myth of Sutekh
and the Elder Horus) in the New Kingdom. There, the stela of the two
brothers say of each other:
"I am a righteous one, whose abomination is evil;
I am not content with any words of who who speaks falsely,
but only (those of) my brother,
Who is like me, with whose ways I am satisfied.
He went forth with me from the womb on the same day..." (Baines 1985:
461-462)
Like Niankhkhnum and Khnumhotep, Suty and Hor held the same position in
life as "overseer of the works of Amun in southern Opet," and like
their Old Kingdom counterparts, this title is fused together with the
respective names of the two men which tended to appear side by side on
the stela, just as Niankhkhnum's and Khnumhotep's names appear in their
tombs (Baines 1985: 463; 469). Why Niankhkhnum and Khnumhotep do not
mention their twin status as do Suty and Hor is also explained by
Baines, who noted that geneaological information in Old Kingdom Tombs
is extremely rare (1985: 464).
As Baines concluded, this linking of the two names with a single title
may reflect a different sort of relationship between Niankhkhnum and
Khnumhotep than that of homosexual lovers:
"The cause of their high status is probably not their social origin;
although there are possible connections between them and tombs at Giza,
they do not ally them with anybody [royal] in particular. It could be
because they were twins. Twinship could elevate status in some cases,
rather as happened with rare dwarfs, who were also close to the king.*
No single detail reviewed here is decisive, but the general effect of
the tomb [of Niankhkhnum and Khnumhotep] is of an extended analogy to
the presentation of certain twins Suty and Hor, who also appear to have
enjoyed a higher status than their unknown kinsmen - but they did
perform _jointly_ an important function." (Baines 1985: 469; emphasis,
[ ] and _ _, mine)
* Citing Weeks 1970: 163-204, on the importance of dwarfs in ancient
Egyptian society. Baines noted, however, that more is known about
dwarfs than twins, so Weeks' information is possibly not the best
evidence of values attached to the twinning phenomena in ancient Egypt.
Baines goes on further to note that eventually, the phenomena of
twinning was common enough to evolve into a formal name by the 25th
Dynasty, /pA-Htr/ (masc) and /tA-Htr.t/ (fem), both meaning "the twin."
Later, during the Ptolemaic period, one sees the evolution of the
Greek name in ancient Egypt of "Didymos/Didyme" (masc/fem)which also
means "the twin." In fact, during the Apis ceremonies of the Ptolemaic
period, _didymoi_ (twin girls) were actually required as part of the
ritual to act in the roles of the divine twins, Isis and Nephthys
(Baines 1985: 472), again arguing for an overall positive response in
the ancient culture to the phenomena of twins.
Reference:
Aufrere, S. 1989. Remarques sur la transmission des noms royaux par les
traditions orale et =E9crite, BIFAO 89: 1-14.
Baines, J. 1985. Egyptian Twins. Orientalia 54: 461-482.
Erman, A. and H. Grapow 1926. _W=F6rterbuch der Aegyptischen Sprache_.
(7 Vols.) Leipzig: J. C. Hinrich.
Hannig, R. 1995. _Die Sprache der Pharaonen: Gro=DFes Handw=F6rterbuch
=C4gyptisch-Deutsch (2800 - 950 v. Chr.)_. Kulturegeschichte der Antiken
Welt 64. Mainz: von Zabern.
__________. 2000. _Die Sprache der Pharaonen: Gro=DFes Handw=F6rterbuch
Deutsch-=C4gyptisch (2800 - 950 v. Chr.). Lexica 3_. Kulturegeschichte
der Antiken Welt 86. Mainz: von Zabern.
Ranke, H. 1977 (1949). H., _Die =E4gyptischen Personennamen. Band II.
Form, Inhalt und Geschichte der Namen, 1. Lieferung_: Einleitung: 1-19.
Gl=FCckstadt/Hamburg-New York: J. J. Augustin.
Weeks, K. 1970. _The Anatomical Knowledge of the Ancient Egyptians and
the Representation of the Human Figure_. PhD. Dissertation
(unpublished). New Haven: Yale University.
HTH.
Regards --
---
Katherine Griffis-Greenberg, MA (Lon)
Member, International Association of Egyptologists
American Research Center in Egypt, SSEA, ASOR
Oriental Institute
Oriental Studies Doctoral Program [Egyptology]
University of Oxford
Oxford, United Kingdom
http://www.griffis-consulting.com
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| User: "JTEM" |
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| Title: Re: Repost: Homosexuality in ancient Egypt |
25 May 2005 08:37:21 AM |
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"Katherine Griffis" <egylist@griffis-consulting.com> wrote
The importance of the naming process is evoked eloquently
in the statement of Isis when she attempts to discern Ra's
"secret name," and is told by the eldest god, in rejecting
her request, that his 'true' name was spoken by his parent/s
at birth, and has a magical power:
I've often wondered how an alien culture might come to
define us, relying heavily on our religious texts for answers.
"If you could travel back thousands of years to their time,
make sure you don't do it on a Saturday, and if you pack a
lunch make sure it doesn't include a ham sandwich. As we
see from their religious texts, Saturday was their holy day,
and no work what so ever was allowed to be performed.
The punishment was quite harsh: Death. The sentence, we
are left to imagine, being carried out on the following
day so as not to offend their God. Nowhere in the western
cultures of that time could you find shellfish or pork
products, including bacon & ham, as those things too are
prohibited by their holy texts."
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| User: "Jon Erlandson" |
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| Title: Re: Repost: Homosexuality in ancient Egypt |
25 May 2005 03:52:52 PM |
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"Katherine Griffis" <egylist@griffis-consulting.com> wrote in message
news:1117021694.877647.114170@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
Thank You...
Jon Erlandson wrote:
I'm a little confused by name changes that occured during the life of a
person. Was it typical for an Egyptian to keep their birth name or did
their name change as they assumed different positions in society?<
Not as I am aware: I too noted that Mr. Reeder says on the 'name'
section of the website:
".... We do not know at what point in their lives they assumed these
names."
I am confused as to why he thinks these names are _not_ the men's birth
names, as changing names, particularly birth names which carry the
'essence' of a human being (on this, see the story of the 'naming' of
the triplet kings at birth by goddesses in the Westcar Papyrus) was
quite rare (Aufrere 1989, Ranke 1977 (1949)). The importance of the
naming process is evoked eloquently in the statement of Isis when she
attempts to discern Ra's "secret name," and is told by the eldest god,
in rejecting her request, that his 'true' name was spoken by his
parent/s at birth, and has a magical power:
"... It [the name] is hidden within the body at birth, so that no
wizard or sorceress is given power over me..."
Another text states the God Amun devises the 'true' name of the king in
3 parts upon his conception, when the god couples with the queen,
basing the names upon the words uttered by the queen during conception
(Ranke 1977 (1949): 3, n. 6). With such power inherent in the birth
name as expressed in Egyptian literature, it would be, to me, very
uncommon for a person, royal or non-royal, to change his name since in
doing so, any history of deeds attached to the previous name would be
forgotten by the gods, and would interfere with the overall essence of
the human being.
Of royalty, I believe only Akhenaten is known to have changed his birth
name, although changing in royal epithetical titulary names (not throne
names) occurred with some frequency from about the time of Thutmose III
onwards in the 18th Dynasty (Hannig 1995: 1273b). In extension, the
_damnatio memoriae_ of Akhenaten's throne and second birth name, where
it was never written or spoken again, but the Atenist king was only
referred to epithetically (as "the rebel," or "the enemy of Akhetaten,"
in the inscription of Mose during the Ramesside period, for example)
confirms the power of the birth (and throne) name/s as sustaining the
essence of the human being, even after death.
The names of these two individuals both reflect some type of union (?)
<http://www.egyptology.com/niankhkhnum_khnumhotep/names.html>
and I was wondering if it may be their birth names or names later given
to them.<
For one, I think Mr. Reeder has been a little liberal in his
translation of the names. For the record, he states at this URL:
"The name Khnum besides being a reference to the god also means 'joined
together' and 'to unite with' and importantly 'associates, companions,
friends,' and even 'house mates.' Their names inscribed together as
they are above, at the entrance to the rock-cut chamber, may be a
design element to suggest a play on words, meaning 'joined in life and
joined in death.'"
Source: <http://www.egyptology.com/niankhkhnum_khnumhotep/names.html>
As far as I can tell from the deity name itself, "Khnum' /Xnmw/, has
the meaning of "creator," "former (as in 'one who forms [something]'),"
"who one establishes (as a creative function)," etc. Khnum is
represented as a deity who formed mankind and the Ennead as a potter
forms a pot on a wheel, in other words. Similar words of /Xnm/ have
the sense of 'assembling and giving content to,' 'combining separate
elements into one,' 'filling and acquiring (content)', etc. (Hannig
1995: 636b-637a), which tend to refer to creative functions and not
about 'joined together,' as in love or companionship, etc. In fact, I
see no interpretation of the /Xnm/ terms which mean 'companion,'
'house-mate,' or Mr. Reeder's reading that the two names mean
"joined/unified in life and death."
Reeder also appears to argue that the term /Htp/ argues somehow for a
reading of 'death' to make his 'closeness of lovers' argument work.
However, I cannot find any reference in the Wörterbuch or its
derivative works (such as Hannig 1995 or 2000) which argue for this
translation, not even as a euphemism for "the dead" or "death." The
usual meaning of /Htp/ is either technically "offering table," or more
colloquially, "satisfied" or "fulfilled" (Hannig 1995: 568a-569a),
likely as referring to the expected result when the god or the dead are
offered food on a /Htp/ offering table. While the dead are said to be
in a state of /Htp/, this would mean similarly to the term of "resting
in peace" as we refer to memorialising the dead today in the afterlife,
or, in more of the Egyptian mindset, being "fullfilled" into their
final transformation into an akh /Ax/. Perhaps Mr. Reeder could
explain his translation of /Htp/ = 'death' more fully, because I seem
to be missing it.
Also, I'm under the impression "twins" at birth were not considered a good
thing. Is there anything to that?
Not in Egyptian culture, but the antipathy to twins was attested in
other ANE and African cultures (Baines 1985: 471, n. 44, n. 46; 478-80,
n. 75-78, where ancient and modern superstitions about twin births and
twins in general are discussed), and where many times they were killed
at birth. This apparently was not true in ancient Egypt, where the
entire godhead group of Heliopolis is based upon the various twin
births emitting from from Atum - first, two sets of fraternal twins
(Shu and Tefnut, who then give birth to the fraternal twins Nut and
Geb), and then two sets of (presumably) identical twins (Seth and
Osiris; Isis and Nephthys), thus completing the first Ennead (set of 9
gods).
As Baines noted in his article on twins in ancient Egypt (1985: 471),
the phenomena and acceptance of the twinning condition was common
enough for usually only passing mention in most Egyptian texts. The
most unequivocal statement we have of Egyptian twins comes from the
stela of Suty and Hor (meaning 'Seth and Horus,' another well-known set
of twinned brothers, according to the ancient Egyptian myth of Sutekh
and the Elder Horus) in the New Kingdom. There, the stela of the two
brothers say of each other:
"I am a righteous one, whose abomination is evil;
I am not content with any words of who who speaks falsely,
but only (those of) my brother,
Who is like me, with whose ways I am satisfied.
He went forth with me from the womb on the same day..." (Baines 1985:
461-462)
Like Niankhkhnum and Khnumhotep, Suty and Hor held the same position in
life as "overseer of the works of Amun in southern Opet," and like
their Old Kingdom counterparts, this title is fused together with the
respective names of the two men which tended to appear side by side on
the stela, just as Niankhkhnum's and Khnumhotep's names appear in their
tombs (Baines 1985: 463; 469). Why Niankhkhnum and Khnumhotep do not
mention their twin status as do Suty and Hor is also explained by
Baines, who noted that geneaological information in Old Kingdom Tombs
is extremely rare (1985: 464).
As Baines concluded, this linking of the two names with a single title
may reflect a different sort of relationship between Niankhkhnum and
Khnumhotep than that of homosexual lovers:
"The cause of their high status is probably not their social origin;
although there are possible connections between them and tombs at Giza,
they do not ally them with anybody [royal] in particular. It could be
because they were twins. Twinship could elevate status in some cases,
rather as happened with rare dwarfs, who were also close to the king.*
No single detail reviewed here is decisive, but the general effect of
the tomb [of Niankhkhnum and Khnumhotep] is of an extended analogy to
the presentation of certain twins Suty and Hor, who also appear to have
enjoyed a higher status than their unknown kinsmen - but they did
perform _jointly_ an important function." (Baines 1985: 469; emphasis,
[ ] and _ _, mine)
* Citing Weeks 1970: 163-204, on the importance of dwarfs in ancient
Egyptian society. Baines noted, however, that more is known about
dwarfs than twins, so Weeks' information is possibly not the best
evidence of values attached to the twinning phenomena in ancient Egypt.
Baines goes on further to note that eventually, the phenomena of
twinning was common enough to evolve into a formal name by the 25th
Dynasty, /pA-Htr/ (masc) and /tA-Htr.t/ (fem), both meaning "the twin."
Later, during the Ptolemaic period, one sees the evolution of the
Greek name in ancient Egypt of "Didymos/Didyme" (masc/fem)which also
means "the twin." In fact, during the Apis ceremonies of the Ptolemaic
period, _didymoi_ (twin girls) were actually required as part of the
ritual to act in the roles of the divine twins, Isis and Nephthys
(Baines 1985: 472), again arguing for an overall positive response in
the ancient culture to the phenomena of twins.
Reference:
Aufrere, S. 1989. Remarques sur la transmission des noms royaux par les
traditions orale et écrite, BIFAO 89: 1-14.
Baines, J. 1985. Egyptian Twins. Orientalia 54: 461-482.
Erman, A. and H. Grapow 1926. _Wörterbuch der Aegyptischen Sprache_.
(7 Vols.) Leipzig: J. C. Hinrich.
Hannig, R. 1995. _Die Sprache der Pharaonen: Großes Handwörterbuch
Ägyptisch-Deutsch (2800 - 950 v. Chr.)_. Kulturegeschichte der Antiken
Welt 64. Mainz: von Zabern.
__________. 2000. _Die Sprache der Pharaonen: Großes Handwörterbuch
Deutsch-Ägyptisch (2800 - 950 v. Chr.). Lexica 3_. Kulturegeschichte
der Antiken Welt 86. Mainz: von Zabern.
Ranke, H. 1977 (1949). H., _Die ägyptischen Personennamen. Band II.
Form, Inhalt und Geschichte der Namen, 1. Lieferung_: Einleitung: 1-19.
Glückstadt/Hamburg-New York: J. J. Augustin.
Weeks, K. 1970. _The Anatomical Knowledge of the Ancient Egyptians and
the Representation of the Human Figure_. PhD. Dissertation
(unpublished). New Haven: Yale University.
HTH.
Regards --
---
Katherine Griffis-Greenberg, MA (Lon)
Member, International Association of Egyptologists
American Research Center in Egypt, SSEA, ASOR
Oriental Institute
Oriental Studies Doctoral Program [Egyptology]
University of Oxford
Oxford, United Kingdom
http://www.griffis-consulting.com
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| User: "Gregory Gadow" |
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| Title: Re: Repost: Homosexuality in ancient Egypt |
25 May 2005 08:44:11 AM |
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Katherine Griffis wrote:
Of royalty, I believe only Akhenaten is known to have changed his birth
name
His son, Tutankhamun, was given the name Tutankhaten at his birth. It was
changed after he assumed the throne.
--
Gregory Gadow
techbear@serv.net
http://www.serv.net/~techbear
"I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe
in one fewer god than you do. When you understand
why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you
will understand why I dismiss yours."
-Stephen F. Roberts
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| User: "JTEM" |
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| Title: Re: Repost: Homosexuality in ancient Egypt |
25 May 2005 09:21:59 AM |
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"Gregory Gadow" <techbear@serv.net> wrote
Katherine Griffis wrote:
Of royalty, I believe only Akhenaten is known to have
changed his birth name
His son, Tutankhamun, was given the name Tutankhaten at
his birth. It was changed after he assumed the throne.
The "Of royalty" aside, An Egyptologist by the name of
Hilary Wilson seems to think that name changes were
quite common, particularly (though not exclusively) in the
Old Kingdom period.
As for the royalty, I was under the impression that we
don't know the birth names of most, at least not as recorded
at birth. After they assumed the thrown, centuries after
they assumed the throne, but not before.
In other words, we have nothing to compare them to.
Anyhow, I couldn't find the exact reference from Hilary
Wilson, but if you want to search for it then be my guest:
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=%22hilary+wilson%22+egyptology
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| User: "stoney" |
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| Title: Re: Repost: Homosexuality in ancient Egypt |
25 May 2005 12:16:39 PM |
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On 25 May 2005 04:48:14 -0700, "Katherine Griffis"
<egylist@griffis-consulting.com> wrote:
Jon Erlandson wrote:
I'm a little confused by name changes that occured during the life of a
person. Was it typical for an Egyptian to keep their birth name or did
their name change as they assumed different positions in society?<
Not as I am aware: I too noted that Mr. Reeder says on the 'name'
section of the website:
".... We do not know at what point in their lives they assumed these
names."
I am confused as to why he thinks these names are _not_ the men's birth
names, as changing names, particularly birth names which carry the
'essence' of a human being (on this, see the story of the 'naming' of
the triplet kings at birth by goddesses in the Westcar Papyrus) was
quite rare (Aufrere 1989, Ranke 1977 (1949)). The importance of the
naming process is evoked eloquently in the statement of Isis when she
attempts to discern Ra's "secret name," and is told by the eldest god,
in rejecting her request, that his 'true' name was spoken by his
parent/s at birth, and has a magical power:
"... It [the name] is hidden within the body at birth, so that no
wizard or sorceress is given power over me..."
Another text states the God Amun devises the 'true' name of the king in
3 parts upon his conception, when the god couples with the queen,
basing the names upon the words uttered by the queen during conception
(Ranke 1977 (1949): 3, n. 6). With such power inherent in the birth
name as expressed in Egyptian literature, it would be, to me, very
uncommon for a person, royal or non-royal, to change his name since in
doing so, any history of deeds attached to the previous name would be
forgotten by the gods, and would interfere with the overall essence of
the human being.
[]
Fascinating stuff. Thank you very much for posting, Katherine.
--
Contempt of Congress meter reading-offscale.
Hello, theocracy with a fundamentalist US Supreme
Court who will ensure church and state are joined
at the hip like clergy and altar boys.
America 1776-Jan 2001 RIP
"As democracy is perfected, the office of president
represents, more and more closely, the inner soul
of the people. On some great and glorious day the
plain folks of the land will reach their heart's
desire at last and the White House will be adorned
by a downright moron." --- H.L. Mencken (1880 - 1956)
Religion is the original war crime.
-Michelle Malkin (Feb 26, 2005)
.
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| User: "o8TY" |
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| Title: Re: Repost: Homosexuality in ancient Egypt |
26 May 2005 10:47:41 AM |
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I wonder if the > (= post separators) is turned off on my machine or yours?
See comment between dashed lines below.
"Katherine Griffis" <egylist@griffis-consulting.com> wrote in message
news:1116853024.295247.105130@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
JTEM wrote:
This is serious -- no trolling -- and these are real
web sites put together by serious people, not
lunatic new-agers.
And SERIOUS comments/opinions on this?
This first link is the most interesting in my mind, as
the source appears totally credible. Are there
alternative views?
http://www.egyptology.com/niankhkhnum_khnumhotep/
There's plenty of others, but I'll limit myself to one
more, because you don't need 20 cites to offer an
opinion:
http://www.gayegypt.com/aneggaygod.html
What specifically do you want responded to? That homosexuality existed
in Egypt, or specifically about Niankhkhnum and Khnumhotep?
I think the answer to the first is obvious (yes, it did), and as for
the other, Mr. Reeder's opinion is disputed by some "serious"
Egyptologists. Others interpret the pair as bothers or even twins,
which could also account for their closeness in the artwork (Baines
1985; Cherpion 1986). Mr. Reeder's interpretation is not the only one
by any means.
As for the interpretation about Seth (Sutekh) on the other website, I
would say it's taking more than liberty with the myths surrounding this
god than required. Sutekh attempts to rape his nephew Horus as part of
the _power struggle between the two gods_, and Isis knows that
_beforehand_ and to turn the tables on this plan, requires that Horus
allow the homosexual embrace gather Sutekh's semen in his hand, to
later spread around the lettuce plants. Then, when the semen calls out
from Sutekh's own bowels (since he ate the semen-laced lettuce, his
favourite vegetable), the plan to disgrace Horus backfires and Sutekh
becomes the laughingstock of the gods (Griffiths 1960).
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
o8ty
I find the reference to the lettuce fascinating if not corrupt. With lettuce
named after its milk-producing (lacte) capability, the association of semen
suggests the plant in question may have been the rude-looking "squirting
cucumber", or the very phallic "semen-covered" Amanita muscaria mushroom -
which can have grown in Egypt in ancient times.
See http://home.iprimus.com.au/o8ty/fungus_family.htm
However, haunting the back of my mind is the dandelion, whose Greek name
apepe may relate to the Uksos king, Epaphos, but who IIRC was also equated
with Seth. The ancient Greeks deemed Epaphos was the son of Io, who has many
associations with Isis. The leaves of dandelion were also known for their
"milk-producing" capabilities.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
The "unification" of Sutekh and Horus is not about Horus, son of Isis,
however, but concerning a deity referred to as the "Elder Horus", who
was _brother_ to Sutekh. Since Horus the Elder represented Lower
Egypt, and Sutekh represented Upper Egypt in early iconography, the
'unification' (/smA tAwy/) of these two deities represent the _unity of
the Two Lands_ (which is the literal meaning of /smA tAwy/), and not a
matter of homosexual union (Nibbi 1997). Similarly, as te Velde (1977)
indicated, with the Elder Horus represented the civilised land of Egypt
and Sutekh, the wild and uninhabited desert lands, this symbols has yet
another layer of meaning of these gods representing the land itself.
Sutekh is acknowledged to have several consorts (Anat, Astarte,
Taweret, for example (te Velde 1977)) - but the goddess Nephthys,
however, is attested as his wife, who flees from him after the murder
of Osiris, who is brother to them both (Osiris and Isis are brother and
sister, as well as husband and wife, just as Nephthys and Sutekh are
similarly related).
te Velde (1968) has noted that Sutekh represents the "trickster"
element in Egyptian mythology - a god who operates 'outside' the
boundaries of civilised behaviour. His unnatural birth from the side
of Nut, his appearance, his function in the temporal plane of
existence (he is the god of abortiofacient events, the brawler who
causes storms, god of foreigners, etc.) shows him to be a god "outside"
the otherwise famially-oriented concept of the gods of Egypt. His
homosexuality is an extension of that "outsider" quality, but as noted
above, it is used as a means of dominion over another deity, and not as
an expression of desire.
In general, the texts indicate that homosexuality was not a desirable
trait, particularly pedophilia with young boys. One of the "negative
statements" on the Books of Coming forth by Dat, made as part of the
Spell 125 Negative Confession by the deceased before the gods in the
afterlife is that 'not have I lain (/nk/) with a young man,' which was
interpreted as a sin which could keep one from receiving a positive
judgment before the gods and disallow the deceased into the afterlife
(Manniche 1997: 22).
Reference:
Baines, J. 1985. Egyptian Twins. Orientalia 54: 461-482.
Cherpion, N. 1986. Deux manucures royaux de la Ve dynastie. In A.
Théodoridès, P. Naster, R. Ries, eds., _Archéologie et Philologie
dans l'étude des civilisations orientales_: 65-72. Acta Orientalia
Belgica 4. Leuven: Peeters.
Griffiths, J. G. 1960. _The Conflict of Horus and Seth from Egyptian
and Classical Sources. A Study in Ancient Mythology_. Liverpool
Monographs in Archaeology and Oriental Studies. H. W. Fairman, ed.
Liverpool: Liverpool University Press.
Manniche, L. 1997. _Sexual Life in Ancient Egypt_. London: Kegal Paul
International.
Nibbi, A. 1997. Some Notes on the Two Lands of Ancient Egypt and the
"Heraldic" Plants. DE 37: 23-49. (On the iconography of the /smA tAwy/
unification plants between Seth and Horus, and how they represent the
Two Lands of Egypt)
te Velde, H. 1968. The Egyptian God Seth as a Trickster. JARCE 7:
37-40.
____________. 1977. _Seth, God of Confusion. A Study of His Role in
Egyptian Mythology and Religion_. G. E. van Baaren-Pape, transl.
Probleme der Ägyptologie. 6. W. Helck. Leiden: Brill.
HTH.
Regards --
---
Katherine Griffis-Greenberg, MA (Lon)
Member, International Association of Egyptologists
American Research Center in Egypt, SSEA, ASOR
Oriental Institute
Oriental Studies Doctoral Program [Egyptology]
University of Oxford
Oxford, United Kingdom
http://www.griffis-consulting.com
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| User: "stoney" |
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| Title: Re: Repost: Homosexuality in ancient Egypt |
24 May 2005 06:45:06 PM |
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On Mon, 23 May 2005 02:05:05 -0400, "JTEM" <gymraven@hotmail.com>
wrote:
This is serious -- no trolling -- and these are real
web sites put together by serious people, not
lunatic new-agers.
And SERIOUS comments/opinions on this?
This first link is the most interesting in my mind, as
the source appears totally credible. Are there
alternative views?
http://www.egyptology.com/niankhkhnum_khnumhotep/
There's plenty of others, but I'll limit myself to one
more, because you don't need 20 cites to offer an
opinion:
http://www.gayegypt.com/aneggaygod.html
Looks like the 'bases' are all covered to me.
--
Contempt of Congress meter reading-offscale.
Hello, theocracy with a fundamentalist US Supreme
Court who will ensure church and state are joined
at the hip like clergy and altar boys.
America 1776-Jan 2001 RIP
"As democracy is perfected, the office of president
represents, more and more closely, the inner soul
of the people. On some great and glorious day the
plain folks of the land will reach their heart's
desire at last and the White House will be adorned
by a downright moron." --- H.L. Mencken (1880 - 1956)
Religion is the original war crime.
-Michelle Malkin (Feb 26, 2005)
.
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| User: "Iskandar" |
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| Title: Re: Repost: Homosexuality in ancient Egypt |
24 May 2005 07:33:46 PM |
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In article <o2f791182imc4gsu5tq4c9b8rcmu0isnkh@4ax.com>, stoney
<stoney@the.net> wrote:
"As democracy is perfected, the office of president
represents, more and more closely, the inner soul
of the people. On some great and glorious day the
plain folks of the land will reach their heart's
desire at last and the White House will be adorned
by a downright moron." --- H.L. Mencken (1880 - 1956)
Mencken was very prophetic!
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| User: "stoney" |
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| Title: Re: Repost: Homosexuality in ancient Egypt |
25 May 2005 12:07:41 PM |
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On Tue, 24 May 2005 20:33:46 -0400, Iskandar
<alexander2020@hotmail.com> wrote:
In article <o2f791182imc4gsu5tq4c9b8rcmu0isnkh@4ax.com>, stoney
<stoney@the.net> wrote:
"As democracy is perfected, the office of president
represents, more and more closely, the inner soul
of the people. On some great and glorious day the
plain folks of the land will reach their heart's
desire at last and the White House will be adorned
by a downright moron." --- H.L. Mencken (1880 - 1956)
Mencken was very prophetic!
Unfortunately so.
--
Contempt of Congress meter reading-offscale.
Hello, theocracy with a fundamentalist US Supreme
Court who will ensure church and state are joined
at the hip like clergy and altar boys.
America 1776-Jan 2001 RIP
"As democracy is perfected, the office of president
represents, more and more closely, the inner soul
of the people. On some great and glorious day the
plain folks of the land will reach their heart's
desire at last and the White House will be adorned
by a downright moron." --- H.L. Mencken (1880 - 1956)
Religion is the original war crime.
-Michelle Malkin (Feb 26, 2005)
.
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