Resurrection Accounts Were Transmitted Faithfully From The Begining

Religions > Atheism > Resurrection Accounts Were Transmitted Faithfully From The Begining

LINK TO THIS PAGE

rating : 0 | 0

Page 1 of 5

Topic:	Religions > Atheism
User:	"words of truth"
Date:	23 Dec 2005 09:42:29 AM
Object:	Resurrection Accounts Were Transmitted Faithfully From The Begining

http://www.geocities.com/metacrock2000/Jesus_pages/Resurrection/Res_arg2.html
Resurrection Accounts:
Transmitted Faithfully From The Begining
The Gospel accounts of the resurrection were tramsmited faithfully from
the very begining. How do we know this? The same way we know that any
aspect of ancient world history is a probalbity: the documents are
trustworthy. Now skepitics are probably spitting milk out their noses
reading this, but its true.There are three areas of reiability, and two
major misconceptions that have to be avoided. Let me start with the
misconceptions:
(1) The idea that "reliable" means "realisitic."
I'm sure many skeptics reading this are saying, How can they be
reliable when they speak of miracles?. But reliable doesnt' necessarily
mean "realistic." This doesn't mean they aren't hard to believe, or
that they don't require an assumption about metaphysics; reliable
doesnt' mean true. What it does mean I'll get to in a minute.
big misconception number two:
(2) Faithful transmission of history would have to mean that we can
prove that eye witnesses wrote the documents. Or worse, that the name
sakes wrote the documents (John wrote John, Matthew wrote Matthew).
None of that has to be the case.
faithful transmission means the content has been passed down from
source to antoher for generations without significant alteration.
Trustworthy doesn't mean "we can prove its ture," it means we can
trust, within a reasonable estimation, that what we have recorded today
is what we would find being transmitted in the earilest times. Here is
how we know:
I. The evidence of the Manuscripts (Ms) and the stories themselves.
II. Early date of the Resurrection narrative.
III. Reliability of the Community.
I. The evidence of the Manuscripts (Ms) themselves.
I wont belabor the point about the documents, since that has been
talked to death on message boards for years. See my pages on Bible:
canonical Gospels for a lot of good info on this point. But, the often
quoted statistic is that the NT MS are generally 98% reliable. What
that means is, that to within 98% all the thousands of MS that we
possess (24,000 of all types including fragments) say the same things.
we don't find passages with wildly different events. There is no one
secret passage somwhere that offers some totally different account of
what happened. Such a Ms just doesnt' exist and there is no evidence
that such a thing ever did exist. The closest we come to that is Secret
Mark the fragment found by Martin Smith at Mar Saba; but even Secret
Mark assumes the world of the Gospels, it assumes a particuar event
recorded in Mark, it doesnt' change the basic facts of the story at
all.
Now skeptics have been known to argue, "but they are just copying the
same story." That's the point! If those events didn't happen, or at
least if they were not been taught from the begining as "the truth," we
should find other versions. NO program of erradication could take out
all copies in the ancient world. Some fragment of a Gospel would have
survived somewhere. If there was a version of the story in which Jesus
didn't rise from the dead, or in which he rose on the 8th day, or
whatever, we would have a copy of it. The fact that the manuscripts
give a cooherent and unified testimony going all the way back as early
as it can go (and not contradicted by 35 lost gospels we do possess)
indcates that this is a good representation of what happened (see F.F.
Bruce, The New Testament Documents,Are they Reliable?
Unified Narratival Framework
The Gospel of Luke is greatly substantiated by artifacts and history,
what about the other Gospels, espeically the first Gospel Mark? In the
totallity of the Synoptic tradition we have a unified framework which
is kept intact. We do not see the growth and elabortaion of myth. As
Stephen Neil points out, quoting Edwin Clement Hoskyns (1884-1937) in
The Riddle of the New Testament (p.104) Neil begins by saying, "We hold
with some confidence that Mark is the earliest of the Gospels and that
both Matthew and Luke use him in the Composition of their Gospels, if
there is any tendency to heighten the drama...we shall certaly find it
in those points at which Matthew and Luke differ from Mark. Do we in
fact find that this is the process which has taken place? After a
careful survey of the evidence Hoskyns answers in the negative. Matthew
and Luke have far more material than Mark...but essentially the
presentation of Jesus is the same, and if there is any tendency it is
not toward heightening the majesty and mystery of Christ it is rather
in the opposite direction--Jesus is a little tamed, a little softened
and brought a little nearer to ordienary categories of human existance"
(p. 216). He then quotes Hoskyns himself: "In this process of editing
they nowhere heighten Marks tremendous picture of Jesus. No deifying of
a prophet, or of a mere preacher of righteousness can be detected. They
do not introduce Hellonistic supersition or submerge in the light of
later Christian faith the lineaments of Mark's picutre of Jesus.They
attempt to simplify Mark, he is more difficult to understand than they
are...."
Rather than seeing a myth spreading and growing and moving toward a
deified Christ what we actually see is a stable framework of assumed
and testified fact and a relatively stable explaination of what the
facts mean. This is in sharp contrast to the skeptic's idea that the
simple facts grew out of propotion with re-telling until they
culmenated in the fantasical notion that Jesus rose from the dead!
II. Early Date of Resurrection Narrative.
A.Myth Takes Centuries to Develop
The importance of early claims is this. Myth takes time to develop.
Legends might spring up over night, but they take time to assume a
consistent form. William Lane Craig quotes prof. Sherwin-Whtite
("Contemporary Scholarship and the Historical Evidence for the
Rsurrection of Jesus Christ," Truth 1 (1985): 89-95)
"For in order for these stories to be in the main legendary, a very
considerable length of time must be available for the evolution and
development of the traditions until the historical elements have been
supplanted by unhistorical. This factor is typically neglected in New
Testament scholarship, as A. N. Sherwin-White points out in Roman Law
and Roman Society tn the New Testament. Professor Sherwin-White is not
a theologian; he is an eminent historian of Roman and Greek times,
roughly contemporaneous with the NT. According to Professor
Sherwin-White, the sources for Roman history are usually biased and
removed at least one or two generations or even centuries from the
events they record. Yet, he says, historians reconstruct with
confidence what really happened. He chastises NT critics for not
realizing what invaluable sources they have in the gospels. The
writings of Herodotus furnish a test case for the rate of legendary
accumulation, and the tests show that even two generations is too short
a time span to allow legendary tendencies to wipe out the hard core of
historical facts. When Professor Sherwin-White turns to the gospels, he
states for these to be legends, the rate of legendary accumulation
would have to be 'unbelievable'; more generations are needed. All NT
scholars agree that the gospels were written down and circulated within
the first generation, during the lifetime of the eyewitnesses."
B.Ressurection Claims Made Early
(1) Markon Account Very Early
The early date of the transmissions are borne out by the Texts
themselves. They are clean and free of myth. The Markon version is
especially pure. Consider the use of the phrase "on the third day"
which we find in Paul's statement above about the 500 witnesses.
Throughout the NT that phrase is used of the Resurrection. Even in
Gospels latter than Mark's it is used. But not in Mark. In Mark we are
receiving something from the purest strata of the early days. William
Lane Craig, (The History of the empty Tomb ofJesus" New Testament
Studies 21 (1985):39-67)
Gerd Theissen in The Gospels in Context, (pp. 166-167):
In my opinion, in Mark we can discern behind the text as we now have it
a connected narrative that presupposes a certain chronology. According
to Mark, Jesus died on the day of Passover, but the tradition supposes
it was the preparation day before Passover: in 14:1-2 the Sanhedrin
decided to kill Jesus before the feast in order to prevent unrest among
the people on the day of the feast. This fits with the circumstance
that in 15:21 Simon of Cyrene is coming in from the fields, which can
be understood to mean he was coming from his work. It would be hard to
imagine any author's using a formulation so subject to misunderstanding
in an account that describes events on the day of Passover, since no
work was done on that day. Moreover, in 15:42 Jesus' burial is said to
be on the "preparation day," but a relative clause is added to make it
the preparation day for the Sabbath. Originally, it was probably the
preparation day for the Passover (cf. Jn 19:42). The motive for
removing Jesus from the cross and burying him before sundown would
probably have been to have this work done before the beginning of the
feast day, which would not make sense if it were already the day of
Passover. Finally, the "trial" before the Sanhedrin presupposes that
this was not a feast day, since no judicial proceedings could be held
on that day. It would have been a breach of the legal code that the
narrator could scarcely have ignored, because the point of the
narrative is to represent the proceeding against Jesus as an unfair
trial with contradictory witnesses and a verdict decided in advance by
the high priests.
(2)Gospel Phraseology implies early telling
"The use of 'the first day of the week' instead of 'on the third day'
points to the primitiveness of the tradition. The tradition of the
discovery of the empty tomb must be very old and very primitive because
it lacks altogether the third day motif prominent in the kerygma, which
is itself extremely old, as evident by its appearance in I Cor 15. 4.
If the empty tomb narrative were a late and legendary account, then it
could hardly have avoided being cast in the prominent, ancient, and
accepted third day motif.{81} This can only mean that the empty tomb
tradition ante-dates the third day motif itself. Again, the proximity
of the tradition to the events themselves makes it idle to regard the
empty tomb as a legend. It makes it highly probable that on the first
day of the week the tomb was indeed found empty." (Caraig)
(3) Pauline Tesimony Earlier than written Gospels
Paul's statment about the 500 and the credal confession were written
prior to any of the Gospels. This places the teaching about 20 years
after the fact. That pushes the pre-Markon material in Mark back even
fruther, to near the date of the events (because it took time to form
into a credal statement).
"Undoubtedly the major impetus for the reassessment of the appearance
tradition was the demonstration by Joachim Jeremias that in 1
Corinthians 15: 3-5 Paul is quoting an old Christian formula which he
received and in turn passed on to his converts According to Galatians
1:18 Paul was in Jerusalem three years after his conversion on a
fact-finding mission, during which he conferred with Peter and James
over a two week period, and he probably received the formula at this
time, if not before. Since Paul was converted in AD 33, this means that
the list of witnesses goes back to within the first five years after
Jesus' death. Thus, it is idle to dismiss these appearances as
legendary. We can try to explain them away as hallucinations if we
wish, but we cannot deny they occurred. Paul's information makes it
certain that on separate occasions various individuals and groups saw
Jesus alive from the dead. According to Norman Perrin, the late NT
critic of the University of Chicago: "The more we study the tradition
with regard to the appearances, the firmer the rock begins to appear
upon which they are based." This conclusion is virtually indisputable."
[William Lane Craig,
Leadership University (Webstie) original "Contemporary Scholarship and
the Historical Evidence for the Resurrection of Jesus Christ," Truth 1
(1985): 89-95]
We can also include in along with this Pauline testimony Hebrews and 1
Peter. Accounts of points that corrospond to Gospels circulating by AD
70 (see Luke Timothy Johnson quotation under point I).
C. Pre Markan Redaction Pushes Date of original Writting to mid
Century>
However the material upon which the Gospels are based dates back to an
earlier period, and in a form which is essentially the same as that
which is found in the Synopitics. This actually pushes the date of the
Gospel story, including the death, burial and resurrection (including
the empty tomb) to A.D. 50.
"Studies of the passion narrative have showen that the Gospel accounts
are dependent upon one and the same basic account of the suffering,
crucifixtion, death and burial of Jesus. But this accounted ended with
the discovery of the empty tomb." Hemut Koster Ancient Chrsitian
Gospels p. 231
(1) Diatessaron
The Diatessaron ..of Titian is the oldest known attempted harmony of
the Gospels. It probably dates to about 172 AD and contains almost the
entire text of the four canonicals plus other material, probably from
other Gospels and perhaps oral traditions. It is attested to in many
works and is probably the first presentation of the Gospel in syriac.
In an article published in the Back of Helmut Koester's Ancient
Christian Gospels, William L. Petersen states:
"Sometimes we stumble across readings which are arguably earlier than
the present canonical text. One is Matthew 8:4 (and Parallels) where
the canonical text runs "go show yourself to the priests and offer the
gift which Moses commanded as a testimony to them" No fewer than 6
Diatessaronic witnesses...give the following (with minor variants) "Go
show yourself to the priests and fulfill the law." With eastern and
western support and no other known sources from which these
Diatessaranic witnesses might have acquired the reading we must
conclude that it is the reading of Tatian...The Diatessaronic reading
is certainly more congielian to Judaic Christianity than than to the
group which latter came to dominate the church and which edited its
texts, Gentile Christians. We must hold open the possible the
possibility that the present canonical reading might be a revision of
an earlier, stricter , more explicit and more Judeo-Christian text,
here preserved only in the Diatessaron. [From "Titian's Diatessaron" by
William L. Petersen, in Helmut Koester, Ancient Christian Gospels:
Their History and Development, Philadelphia: Trinity Press
International, 1990, p. 424]
While textual critics find it more significant that the early
implications are for Jewish Christianity, I find it significant that
the pre-Markan material in the Diatesseran includes a miracle story.
Those miracles just never really fall out of the story. They are in
there from the beginning. But for our purposes the most important point
to make is that here we have traces of pre-Markan material. That is,
Mark as we know Mark was not the earliest Christian Gospel written, it
is merely the earliest of which we have a full copy. The date assigned
to the composition of Mark is not the date assigned to the sources used
to redact that composition. This pushes the written record of the Jesus
story before A.D. 60 and makes it at least contemporaneous with Paul's
writings. In other words it is clear that written Gospels with Jesus in
an historical setting, and with Mary and Joseph the Cross and the empty
tomb existed and circulated before the version of Mark that we know,
and at the same time or before Paul was writing his first epistle
(150'sAD).
(2) Papyrus Egerton 2
The Unknown Gospel (Egerton 2) preserves a tradition of Jesus healing
the leper in Mark 1:40-44. (Note: The independent tradition in the
Diatessaran was also of the healing of the leper). There is also a
version of the statement about rendering unto Caesar. Space does not
permit a detailed examination of the passages to really prove Koster's
point here. But just to get a taste of the differences we are talking
about:
Koster says:
"There are two solutions that are equally improbable. It is unlikely
that the pericope in Egerton 2 is an independent older tradition. It is
equally hard to imagine that anyone would have deliberately composed
this apophthegma by selecting sentences from three different Gospel
writings. There are no analogies to this kind of Gospel composition
because this pericope is neither a harmony of parallels from different
Gospels, nor is it a florogelium. If one wants to uphold the hypothesis
of dependence upon written Gospels one would have to assume that the
pericope was written form memory....What is decisive is that there is
nothing in the pericope that reveals redactional features of any of the
Gospels that parallels appear. The author of Papyrus Egerton 2 uses
independent building blocks of sayings for the composition of this
dialogue none of the blocks have been formed by the literary activity
of any previous Gospel writer. If Papyrus Egerton 2 is not dependent
upon the Fourth Gospel it is an important witness to an earlier stage
of development of the dialogues of the fourth Gospel....[Koester , 3.2
p.215]
Koseter shows that the Gospels are based upon pre-markan material which
dates from A.D. 50 and ends witht he empty tomb, the resurrection
appearnces of Jesus he believes were added from other sources. In this
theory is partially in agreement with Crossen who also believes that
the pre-Markan material can be traced to A.D. 50 and includes the empty
tomb. Koester also uses the Gospel of Thomas and Gospel of Peter and
several other works to demonstrate the same point.[please see Jesus
Puzzell 2 for more on this point] This puts the actual writting of the
Gospel tradition just 20 years after the original events. There still
many eye-witnesses living, the communities which had witnessed the
events of Jesus' ministry would have still basically been intact. The
events would be somewhat fresh, and plenty of oportunity for witnesses
to correct mistakes.
Thus the basic historical validity for the Gospels can be upheld, since
they are based upon material which actually goes back to within a mere
20 years of the original events. This means that many of he eye
witnesses would have been in the community and able to correct any
mistakes or fabrications which were put into the text.
Almost all NT scholars put the writting of the Synoptic Gospels within
the plausable life span of eye witnesses, Mark around 65, Matt. around
70 and Luke 80. In Ancient Christian Gospels, (1991) Helmutt Koster
identifies a proto-Gospel which underlies the synoptics and John, and
which has traces in the Gospel of Peter. (Koster is a major textual
critic and is certainly placed in the Liberal camp).
(c) Peter not copy of Matt.
"The Gospel of Peter is dependent upon the traditions of interpriting
old testament materials, for the description of Jesus' suffering and
death; it shares such traditions wtih the canonical Gospels, but is not
dependent upon the canonical writtings....[Dominic Crosson] argues that
this activity [interpretation of scritpure as nuleous of passion
narrative]...resulted in the composition of a litterary document at a
very early date, i.e. in the middle of the first century." (Koster,
218).
"The Gospel of Peter as a whole is not dependent upon any of the
canonical Gospels. It is a composition which is analogous to the
Gospels of Mark and John. All three writtings, independently of each
other use an older passion narrative which is based upon a exigetical
tradition that was still alive when these Gospels were composed and to
which the Gospel of Matthew also had access...However, framgements of
the epiphany story of Jesus being raised from the Tomb, which the
Gospel of Peter has preserved in its entirety, were employed in
different litterary contexts in the Gospels of Mark and Matthew."
(Koster, 240).
(b) Passion account developed early
"The account of the passasion of Jesus must have developed quite early
becasue it is one and the same account used by Mark (and subsequently
by Matthew and Luke) and John, and as will be argued below, by the
Gospel of Peter. However, except for the story of the discovery of the
empty tomb the different stories of the appearence of Jesus after his
ressurection in the various gospels cannot derive from one single
source....each of the authors of the extant Gospels and of their
secondary endings drew these epephany stoires form their own particular
tradition, not form a common source." (Ibid. 220).
(c) empty tomb part of original story
"Stories of the passion narrative were dependent upon one and the same
basic account of the suffering cruscifiction, death and burrial of
Jesus. But this account ended with the discovery of the empty
tomb....for the story of Jesus' burial and the discovery of the empty
tomb the Gospel of Peter used the source that also that underlys Mark
and John, which ended with the discovery of the empty tomb."
(ibid.231).
William Laine Craig tells us:
" The presence of the empty tomb pericope in the pre-Markan passion
story supports its historicity. The empty tomb story was part of,
perhaps the close of, the pre-Markan passion story. According to
Pesch,{79} geographical references, personal names, and the use of
Galilee as a horizon all point to Jerusalem as the fount of the
pre-Markan passion story. As to its age, Paul's Last Supper tradition
(I Cor 11. 23-25) presupposes the pre-Markan passion account;
therefore, the latter must have originated in the first years of
existence of the Jerusalem Urgemeinde. Confirmation of this is found in
the fact that the pre-Markan passion story speaks of the 'high priest'
without using his name (14. 53, 54, 60, 61, 63). This implies (nearly
necessitates, according to Pesch) that Caiaphas was still the high
priest when the pre-Markan passion story was being told, since then
there would be no need to mention his name. Since Caiaphas was high
priest from A.D. 18-37, the terminus ante quem for the origin of the
tradition is A.D. 37. Now if this is the case, then any attempt to
construe the empty tomb account as an unhistorical legend is doomed to
failure." (The History of the empty Tomb ofJesus" New Testament Studies
21 (1985):39-67)
"Like the burial story, the account of the discovery of the empty tomb
is remarkably restrained. Bultmann states, '. . . Mark's presentation
is extremely reserved, in so far as the resurrection and the appearance
of the risen Lord are not recounted.' {55} Nauck observes that many
theological motifs that might be expected are lacking in the story: (1)
the proof from prophecy, (2) the in-breaking of the new eon, (3) the
ascension of Jesus' Spirit or his descent into hell, (4) the nature of
the risen body, and (5) the use of Christological titles.{56} Although
kerygmatic speech appears in the mouth of the angel, the fact of the
discovery of the empty tomb is not kerygmatically colored. All these
factors point to a very old tradition concerning the discovery of the
empty tomb."
.. III. Community as Author
We do not have to know the exact identity of the authors, because the
original material comes from the community itself
A.Oral tradition was not uncontroled.
Oral tradition in first-century Judaism was not uncontrolled as was/is
often assumed, based on comparisons with non-Jewish models. From pg.
53-55 in B.D. Chilton and C.A. Evans (eds.), "Authenticating the
Activities of Jesus" (NTTS, 28.2; Leiden: E.J. Brill, 1998):
"...[T]he early form criticism tied the theory of oral transmission to
the conjecture that Gospel traditions were mediated like folk
traditions, being freely altered and even created ad hoc by various and
sundry wandering charismatic jackleg preachers. This view, however, was
rooted more in the eighteenth century romanticism of J. G. Herder than
in an understanding of the handling of religious tradition in
first-century Judaism. As O. Cullmann, B. Gerhardsson, H. Riesenfeld
and R. Riesner have demonstrated, [22] the Judaism of the period
treated such traditions very carefully, and the New Testament writers
in numerous passages applied to apostolic traditions the same technical
terminology found elsewhere in Judaism for 'delivering', 'receiving',
'learning', 'holding', 'keeping', and 'guarding', the traditioned
'teaching'. [23] In this way they both identified their traditions as
'holy word' and showed their concern for a careful and ordered
transmission of it. The word and work of Jesus were an important albeit
distinct part of these apostolic traditions.
"Luke used one of the same technical terms, speaking of eyewitnesses
who 'delivered to us' the things contained in his Gospel and about
which his patron Theophilus had been instructed. Similarly, the
amanuenses or co-worker-secretaries who composed the Gospel of John
speak of the Evangelist, the beloved disciple, 'who is witnessing
concerning these things and who wrote these things', as an eyewitness
and a member of the inner circle of Jesus' disciples.[24] In the same
connection it is not insignificant that those to whom Jesus entrusted
his teachings are not called 'preachers' but 'pupils' and 'apostles',
semi-technical terms for those who represent and mediate the teachings
and instructions of their mentor or principal.(25)
(22. O. Cullmann, "The Tradition," in Cullmann, The Early Church
(London: SCM Press; Philadelphia: Westminster, 1956) 55-99; B.
Gerhardsson The Origins of the Gospel Traditions (Philadelphia:
Fortress, 1979); H. Riesenfeld The Gospel Tradition (Philadelphia:
Fortress, 1970) 1-29; Riesner, Jesus als Lehrer.
23. Rom 6:17; 16:17; 1 Cor 11:2, 23; 15:3; Phil 4:9; Col 2:6-7; 2 Thess
2:15; 3:6; 2 Tim 3:14; Titus 1:9; 2 John 9-10; Jude 3: Rev 2:13, 24.
Cf. Abot 1:1; Philo, The Worse Attacks the Better 65-68. 24. John
19:35; 21:24-25; cf. 13:23; 18:15-16; 19:26-27; 20:1-10; 21:7, 21-23.
Cf. J. A. T. Robinson, Redating the New Testament (Philadelphia:
Westminster, 1976) 298-311. 25. On parallels with other rabbis and
their disciples and other Jewish usage cf. Mark 2:18 = Luke 5:33; K.H.
Rengstorf TDNT 1 (1964) 412-43;.TDNT 4 (1967) 431-55.
Also, there wasn't an necessarily a long period of solely oral
transmission as has been assumed:
"Under the influence of R. Bultmann and M. Dibelius the classical form
criticism raised many doubts about the historicity of the Synoptic
Gospels, but it was shaped by a number of literary and historical
assumptions which themselves are increasingly seen to have a doubtful
historical basis. It assumed, first of all, that the Gospel traditions
were transmitted for decades exclusively in oral form and began to be
fixed in writing only when the early Christian anticipation of a soon
end of the world faded. This theory foundered with the discovery in
1947 of the library of the Qumran sect, a group contemporaneous with
the ministry of Jesus and the early church which combined intense
expectation of the End with prolific writing. Qumran shows that such
expectations did not inhibit writing but actually were a spur to it.
Also, the widespread literacy in first-century Palestinian Judaism
[18], together with the different language backgrounds of Jesus'
followers--some Greek, some Aramaic, some bilingual--would have
facilitated the rapid written formulations and transmission of at least
some of Jesus' teaching.[19]" (p. 53-54)
------------------ 18. Cf. Josephus, Against Apion 2.25 204: The Law
"orders that (children) should be taught to read."; cf. idem, Ant.
12.4.9 209; Philo, Embassy to Gaius 115, 210, Further, see R. Riesner,
Jesus als Lehrer (WUNT 2.7; Tubingen: Mohr [Siebeck], 1981; 4th ed.,
1998) 112-15. 19. Jesus had hearers and doubtless some converts from
Syria (Matt 4:25), the Decapolis (Matt 4:25; Mark 3:8; 5:20; 7:31),
Tyre and Sidon (Mark 3:8; 7:24, 31; Matt 15:21).
N. T. Wright, critiquing the Jesus Seminar's view of oral tradition as
uncontrolled and informal based on some irrelevant research done in
modern Western non-oral societies writes:
"Against this whole line of thought we must set the serious study of
genuinely oral traditions that has gone on in various quarters
recently. [65] (p. 112-113)
--------------- 65. For example, see H. Wansbrough (ed.), Jesus and the
Oral Gospel Tradition (JSNTSup 64; Sheffield: JSOT Press, 1991),
referring to a large amount of earlier work; Bailey, "Informal
Controlled Oral Tradition," 34-54. The following discussion depends on
these and similar studies, and builds on Wright, The New Testament and
the People of God, 418-43; and idem, Jesus and the Victory of God,
133-37.)
"Communities that live in an oral culture tend to be story-telling
communities. They sit around in long evenings telling and listening to
stories--the same stories, over and over again. Such stories,
especially when they are involved with memorable happenings that have
determined in some way the existence and life of the particular group
in question, acquire a fairly fixed form, down to precise phraseology
(in narrative as well as in recorded speech), extremely early in their
life--often within a day or so of the original incident taking place.
They retain that form, and phraseology, as long as they are told. Each
village and community has its recognized storytellers, the accredited
bearers of its traditions; but the whole community knows the stories by
heart, and if the teller varies them even slightly they will let him
know in no uncertain terms. This matters quite a lot in cultures where,
to this day, the desire to avoid 'shame' is a powerful motivation.
"Such cultures do also repeat, and hence transmit, proverbs, and pithy
sayings. Indeed, they tend to know far more proverbs than the orally
starved modern Western world. But the circulation of such individual
sayings is only the tip of the iceberg; the rest is narrative,
narrative with embedded dialogue, heard, repeated again and again
within minutes, hours and days of the original incident, and fixed in
memories the like of which few in the modern Western world can imagine.
The storyteller in such a culture has no license to invent or adapt at
will. The less important the story, the more the entire community, in a
process that is informal but very effective, will keep a close watch on
the precise form and wording with which the story is told. "And the
stories about Jesus were nothing if not important. Even the Jesus
Seminar admits that Jesus was an itinerant wonder-worker. Very well.
Supposing a woman in a village is suddenly healed after a lengthy
illness. Even today, even in a non-oral culture, the story of such an
event would quickly spread among friends, neighbors and relatives,
acquiring a fixed form within the first two or three retellings and
retaining it, other things being equal, thereafter. In a culture where
storytelling was and is an art-form, a memorable event such as this,
especially if it were also seen as a sign that Israel's God was now at
last at work to do what he had always promised, would be told at once
in specific ways, told so as to be not just a celebration of a healing
but also a celebration of the Kingdom of God. Events and stories of
this order are community-forming, and the stories which form
communities do not get freely or loosely adapted. One does not disturb
the foundations of the house in which one is living."[B.D. Chilton and
C.A. Evans (eds.), Authenticating the Activities of Jesus (NTTS, 28.2;
Leiden: E.J. Brill, 1998) p. 113-115.]
.

User: "Kenneth Almquist"
Title: Re: Resurrection Accounts Were Transmitted Faithfully From The Begining	27 Dec 2005 02:21:28 PM

"words of truth" <wordsoftruth@hoshmail.com> wrote:

According to Professor
Sherwin-White, the sources for Roman history are usually biased and
removed at least one or two generations or even centuries from the
events they record. Yet, he says, historians reconstruct with
confidence what really happened.

A generation or two, combined with bias, can make a huge difference.
We can see this in the accounts of King Richard III written by Tudor
historians. Modern historians mostly ignore the Tudor historians, and
instead rely on documents which are contemporary with the events they
describe.
Sherwin-White is not a contemporary historian (he died in 1993), and
his statement should not be taken to reflect the views of currently
active historians on the use of sources.
When studying Roman history, sources are few and far between, so
historians of that period are in some cases forced to rely on documents
that students of a later period would reject as too unreliable to be
worthy of consideration. But a competent historian will recognize that
in the absence of contemporary evidence (that is, evidence that dates
back to the events being described), it is not possible to say with
much confidence what actually occurred.
Furthermore, historians don't take the Roman documents as gospel
truth. (This was true even in Sherwin-White's day.) Instead, they
try to separate the truth from the fiction. Accounts of miracles
are discarded during this process because miracles are, by definition,
improbable.
Kenneth Almquist
.

User: "Josef Balluch"
Title: Re: Resurrection Accounts Were Transmitted Faithfully From The Begining	23 Dec 2005 02:50:55 PM

In a message sent 'round the world, words of truth poured fuel on the
fire with the following:

http://www.geocities.com/metacrock2000/Jesus_pages/Resurrection/Res_arg2.html

Resurrection Accounts:
Transmitted Faitufully From Begining
The Gospel accounts of the resurrection were tramsmited faithfully from
the very begining. How do we know this? The same way we know that any
aspect of ancient world history is a probalbity: the documents are
trustworthy. Now skepitics are probably spitting milk out their noses
reading this, but its true.There are three areas of reiability, and two
major misconceptions that have to be avoided. Let me start with the
misconceptions:

LOL !!
Seven spelling mistakes in the first paragraph plus title. (WoT
subsequently corrected one after copy-and-paste.) That's rather ironic
for a document that argues for the possibility of "faithful
transmission" over a period of a couple thousand years.
Regards,
Josef
The trouble with the world is that the stupid are cocksure and the
intelligent are full of doubt.
-- Bertrand Russell
.

User: "Bonnie Bitch"
Title: Re: Resurrection Accounts Were Transmitted Faithfully From The Begining	23 Dec 2005 07:22:54 PM

On 23 Dec 2005 07:42:29 -0800, the faaaaabulous supreme deity
Tlahuizcalpantecuhtli, Ruler of the heavens and host of fab parties,
opened the heavens and shone his light upon the wisdom of "words of
truth" <wordsoftruth@hoshmail.com>

Resurrection

....never happened. It was a myth.
.

User: "Smurfette"
Title: Re: Resurrection Accounts Were Transmitted Faithfully From The Begining	23 Dec 2005 07:56:28 PM

"Bonnie *****" <bonnieb@fifispad.org> wrote in message
news:8m8pq117f68bai9lt10438dgtlfebejor1@4ax.com...

Resurrection

...never happened. It was a myth.

www.jesusneverexisted.com
Mich.
.

User: "Bonnie Bitch"
Title: Re: Resurrection Accounts Were Transmitted Faithfully From The Begining	24 Dec 2005 02:52:35 AM

On Sat, 24 Dec 2005 01:56:28 GMT, the faaaaabulous supreme deity
Tlahuizcalpantecuhtli, Ruler of the heavens and host of fab parties,
opened the heavens and shone his light upon the wisdom of "Smurfette"
<Smurfette@t.com>

"Bonnie *****" <bonnieb@fifispad.org> wrote in message
news:8m8pq117f68bai9lt10438dgtlfebejor1@4ax.com...

Resurrection

...never happened. It was a myth.

www.jesusneverexisted.com

Oh, honey -- I already bookmarked that one in two different files.
But thanks! It's definitely a "must-view" site.
.

User: "bob young"
Title: Re: Resurrection Accounts Were Transmitted Faithfully From The Begining	24 Dec 2005 10:17:02 PM

Bonnie ***** wrote:

"Bonnie *****" <bonnieb@fifispad.org> wrote in message
news:8m8pq117f68bai9lt10438dgtlfebejor1@4ax.com...

Resurrection

...never happened. It was a myth.

www.jesusneverexisted.com

Oh, honey -- I already bookmarked that one in two different files.
But thanks! It's definitely a "must-view" site.

Strange, you never call me 'honey' !
.

User: "Bonnie Bitch"
Title: Re: Resurrection Accounts Were Transmitted Faithfully From The Begining	25 Dec 2005 06:13:34 AM

On 24 Dec 2005 22:17:02 -0600, the faaaaabulous supreme deity
Tlahuizcalpantecuhtli, Ruler of the heavens and host of fab parties,
opened the heavens and shone his light upon the wisdom of bob young
<alaspectrum@netvigator.com>

Bonnie ***** wrote:

"Bonnie *****" <bonnieb@fifispad.org> wrote in message
news:8m8pq117f68bai9lt10438dgtlfebejor1@4ax.com...

Resurrection

...never happened. It was a myth.

www.jesusneverexisted.com

Oh, honey -- I already bookmarked that one in two different files.
But thanks! It's definitely a "must-view" site.

Strange, you never call me 'honey' !

I also don't recall you putting out for me, honey, and you owe me.
Happy now?
.

User: "bob young"
Title: Re: Resurrection Accounts Were Transmitted Faithfully From The Begining	25 Dec 2005 06:41:02 AM

Bonnie ***** wrote:

"Bonnie *****" <bonnieb@fifispad.org> wrote in message
news:8m8pq117f68bai9lt10438dgtlfebejor1@4ax.com...

Resurrection

...never happened. It was a myth.

www.jesusneverexisted.com

Oh, honey -- I already bookmarked that one in two different files.
But thanks! It's definitely a "must-view" site.

Strange, you never call me 'honey' !

I also don't recall you putting out for me, honey, and you owe me.
Happy now?

Always happy to pay up.
Cheers
.

User: "Bonnie Bitch"
Title: Re: Resurrection Accounts Were Transmitted Faithfully From The Begining	25 Dec 2005 03:49:43 PM

On 25 Dec 2005 06:41:02 -0600, the faaaaabulous supreme deity
Tlahuizcalpantecuhtli, Ruler of the heavens and host of fab parties,
opened the heavens and shone his light upon the wisdom of bob young
<alaspectrum@netvigator.com>

Bonnie ***** wrote:

"Bonnie *****" <bonnieb@fifispad.org> wrote in message
news:8m8pq117f68bai9lt10438dgtlfebejor1@4ax.com...

Resurrection

...never happened. It was a myth.

www.jesusneverexisted.com

Oh, honey -- I already bookmarked that one in two different files.
But thanks! It's definitely a "must-view" site.

Strange, you never call me 'honey' !

I also don't recall you putting out for me, honey, and you owe me.
Happy now?

Always happy to pay up.

Yeah, I bet you are -- until the waiter brings the check.
.

User: "bob young"
Title: Re: Resurrection Accounts Were Transmitted Faithfully From The Begining	26 Dec 2005 06:14:01 AM

Bonnie ***** wrote:

"Bonnie *****" <bonnieb@fifispad.org> wrote in message
news:8m8pq117f68bai9lt10438dgtlfebejor1@4ax.com...

Resurrection

...never happened. It was a myth.

www.jesusneverexisted.com

Oh, honey -- I already bookmarked that one in two different files.
But thanks! It's definitely a "must-view" site.

Strange, you never call me 'honey' !

I also don't recall you putting out for me, honey, and you owe me.
Happy now?

Always happy to pay up.

Yeah, I bet you are -- until the waiter brings the check.

It never ceases to amaze me that a portion of humanity can make up their minds
about a total stranger the way you do.
It is, of course, sick and pathetic, smacking of the writer being at a loss to
say anything intelligent.
Well I tried to joke with you, but that did not suit, so 'good-bye, you are not
worth the time of day'.
<PLONK>
.

User: "Bonnie B."
Title: Re: Resurrection Accounts Were Transmitted Faithfully From The Begining	26 Dec 2005 03:53:10 PM

On 26 Dec 2005 06:14:01 -0600, the faaaaabulous supreme deity
Tlahuizcalpantecuhtli, Ruler of the heavens and host of fab parties,
opened the heavens and shone his light upon the wisdom of bob young
<alaspectrum@netvigator.com>

Bonnie ***** wrote:

"Bonnie *****" <bonnieb@fifispad.org> wrote in message
news:8m8pq117f68bai9lt10438dgtlfebejor1@4ax.com...

Resurrection

...never happened. It was a myth.

www.jesusneverexisted.com

Oh, honey -- I already bookmarked that one in two different files.
But thanks! It's definitely a "must-view" site.

Strange, you never call me 'honey' !

I also don't recall you putting out for me, honey, and you owe me.
Happy now?

Always happy to pay up.

Yeah, I bet you are -- until the waiter brings the check.

It never ceases to amaze me that a portion of humanity can make up their minds
about a total stranger the way you do.

P-K-Boob Young.

It is, of course, sick and pathetic, smacking of the writer being at a loss to
say anything intelligent.

Don't project.

Well I tried to joke with you, but that did not suit, so 'good-bye, you are not
worth the time of day'.

Ironic that you can dish out the jokes but you can't take them.
Mayhap thy sense of humor is on backorder with Satan Clause?
Happy FOAD --
Bonnie *****
.

User: "bob young"
Title: Re: Resurrection Accounts Were Transmitted Faithfully From The Begining	27 Dec 2005 05:57:02 AM

"Bonnie B." wrote:

Bonnie ***** wrote:

"Bonnie *****" <bonnieb@fifispad.org> wrote in message
news:8m8pq117f68bai9lt10438dgtlfebejor1@4ax.com...

Resurrection

...never happened. It was a myth.

www.jesusneverexisted.com

Oh, honey -- I already bookmarked that one in two different files.
But thanks! It's definitely a "must-view" site.

Strange, you never call me 'honey' !

I also don't recall you putting out for me, honey, and you owe me.
Happy now?

Always happy to pay up.

Yeah, I bet you are -- until the waiter brings the check.

It never ceases to amaze me that a portion of humanity can make up their minds
about a total stranger the way you do.

P-K-Boob Young.

It is, of course, sick and pathetic, smacking of the writer being at a loss to
say anything intelligent.

Don't project.

Well I tried to joke with you, but that did not suit, so 'good-bye, you are not
worth the time of day'.

Ironic that you can dish out the jokes but you can't take them.

Here we have Ladies and Gentlemen a poster who thinks that insults are jokes.
Well that clears up the intelligence issue for good don't it?!

Mayhap thy sense of humor is on backorder with Satan Clause?

Happy FOAD --

Bonnie *****

User: ""
Title: Re: Resurrection Accounts Were Transmitted Faithfully From The Begining	29 Dec 2005 06:29:33 PM

bob young wrote:

"Bonnie B." wrote:

Bonnie ***** wrote:

"Bonnie *****" <bonnieb@fifispad.org> wrote in message
news:8m8pq117f68bai9lt10438dgtlfebejor1@4ax.com...

Resurrection

...never happened. It was a myth.

www.jesusneverexisted.com

Oh, honey -- I already bookmarked that one in two different files.
But thanks! It's definitely a "must-view" site.

Strange, you never call me 'honey' !

I also don't recall you putting out for me, honey, and you owe me.
Happy now?

Always happy to pay up.

Yeah, I bet you are -- until the waiter brings the check.

It never ceases to amaze me that a portion of humanity can make up their minds
about a total stranger the way you do.

P-K-Boob Young.

It is, of course, sick and pathetic, smacking of the writer being at a loss to
say anything intelligent.

Don't project.

Well I tried to joke with you, but that did not suit, so 'good-bye, you are not
worth the time of day'.

Ironic that you can dish out the jokes but you can't take them.

Here we have Ladies and Gentlemen a poster who thinks that insults are jokes.

And its name is Boob Young.

Well that clears up the intelligence issue for good don't it?!

Only concerning you, Boobie.
Mayhap thy sense of humor is on backorder with Satan Clause?
Happy FOAD --
Bonnie *****
.

User: "Martin Edwards"
Title: Re: Resurrection Accounts Were Transmitted Faithfully From The Begining	27 Dec 2005 09:49:40 AM

Bonnie B. wrote:

Bonnie ***** wrote:

"Bonnie *****" <bonnieb@fifispad.org> wrote in message
news:8m8pq117f68bai9lt10438dgtlfebejor1@4ax.com...

Resurrection

...never happened. It was a myth.

www.jesusneverexisted.com

Oh, honey -- I already bookmarked that one in two different files.
But thanks! It's definitely a "must-view" site.

Strange, you never call me 'honey' !

I also don't recall you putting out for me, honey, and you owe me.
Happy now?

Always happy to pay up.

Yeah, I bet you are -- until the waiter brings the check.

It never ceases to amaze me that a portion of humanity can make up their minds
about a total stranger the way you do.

P-K-Boob Young.

It is, of course, sick and pathetic, smacking of the writer being at a loss to
say anything intelligent.

Don't project.

Well I tried to joke with you, but that did not suit, so 'good-bye, you are not
worth the time of day'.

Ironic that you can dish out the jokes but you can't take them.

Mayhap thy sense of humor is on backorder with Satan Clause?

Happy FOAD --

Bonnie *****

--
You can't fool me: there ain't no Sanity Clause - Chico Marx
www.geocities.com/Athens/Agora/1955
.

User: "bob young"
Title: Re: Resurrection Accounts Were Transmitted Faithfully From The Begining	24 Dec 2005 10:14:04 PM

Bonnie ***** wrote:

Resurrection

...never happened. It was a myth.

only a banal lunatic would consider otherwise
.

User: "Bonnie Bitch"
Title: Re: Resurrection Accounts Were Transmitted Faithfully From The Begining	25 Dec 2005 06:12:38 AM

On 24 Dec 2005 22:14:04 -0600, the faaaaabulous supreme deity
Tlahuizcalpantecuhtli, Ruler of the heavens and host of fab parties,
opened the heavens and shone his light upon the wisdom of bob young
<alaspectrum@netvigator.com>

Bonnie ***** wrote:

Resurrection

...never happened. It was a myth.

only a banal lunatic would consider otherwise

Well, duh, honey. <g>
.

User: "bob young"
Title: Re: Resurrection Accounts Were Transmitted Faithfully From The Begining	26 Dec 2005 06:14:02 AM

Bonnie ***** wrote:

Resurrection

...never happened. It was a myth.

only a banal lunatic would consider otherwise

Well, duh, honey. <g>

[see my earlier post]
.

User: "B. Bitch"
Title: Re: Resurrection Accounts Were Transmitted Faithfully From The Begining	26 Dec 2005 03:55:52 PM

On 26 Dec 2005 06:14:02 -0600, the faaaaabulous supreme deity
Tlahuizcalpantecuhtli, Ruler of the heavens and host of fab parties,
opened the heavens and shone his light upon the wisdom of bob young
<alaspectrum@netvigator.com>

Bonnie ***** wrote:

Resurrection

...never happened. It was a myth.

only a banal lunatic would consider otherwise

Well, duh, honey. <g>

[see my earlier post]

Oh, for *****'s sake, even with the emoticon, you can't grasp the
humor. And then you ***** about others' not getting the humor?
<begin voice over in homage to Boob Young>
It is, of course, sick and pathetic, smacking of the writer being at a
loss to say anything intelligent. <whine whine whine>
</end voice over>
Happy FOAD --
Bonnie *****
.

User: "bob young"
Title: Re: Resurrection Accounts Were Transmitted Faithfully From The Begining	27 Dec 2005 05:55:03 AM

"B. *****" wrote:

Bonnie ***** wrote:

Resurrection

...never happened. It was a myth.

only a banal lunatic would consider otherwise

Well, duh, honey. <g>

[see my earlier post]

Oh, for *****'s sake, even with the emoticon, you can't grasp the
humor. And then you ***** about others' not getting the humor?

<begin voice over in homage to Boob Young>

It is, of course, sick and pathetic, smacking of the writer being at a
loss to say anything intelligent. <whine whine whine>

</end voice over>

Happy FOAD --

Bonnie *****

You really selected an appropriate handle didn't you?
I guess in real life you would love to ***** and insult others one on one but
you don't have the guts, so you come here and do it.
Well bully for you,
Oh and as for intelligence', forget it, you are not even on the first rung of
the ladder.
.

User: ""
Title: Re: Resurrection Accounts Were Transmitted Faithfully From The Begining	29 Dec 2005 06:56:51 PM

bob young wrote:

You really selected an appropriate handle didn't you?

***** is the family name. Allegedly, we are shirt-tail relations to the
famous French/Swiss composer, Marcel Bitsch, but our side of the family
dropped the S when they migrated across the Atlantic.
I am a descendant of Rudyard Onus *****, but that side of the family
was really boring until recently, when my half-borther, ***** *****,
divorced his 1st wife, Trish Fisch-*****, and married his new wife,
Mommalia M'yeye. (She's Maori, and she prefers to go by her nickname,
Mommie).
She also divorced her first husband, Sidney Slaapja (he was Finnish),
and Mommie M'yeye-Slaapja is now Mommie M'yeye-Slaapja-*****. I don't
know if her son, Ruckus Slaapja, will take on the ***** family name,
though.
But we still have the next generation of *****'s represented by my
adorable niece, Elizabeth Myass *****, daughter of my half-brother
Etthis (pronounced "EAT-this") and his wife, Nellie Dragge-*****. I
just adore my little niece, Bette-Myass. Haven't met my step-nephew
Ruckus yet, though. But I hear he's a caution.
On the maternal side, I am also a descendant of Viciouse Harde, who
married Hartcor Trollenslapper, and she became Viciouse
Harde-Trollensalpper. We're also shirt-tail relations to the Zelfwhack
clan, thanks to grandpa Hartcor marrying Babanette Comanja after he got
her knocked up with their son Maximus. After Hartcor and Babanette got
divorced, Babanette married Mortimer Handheld Zelfwhack, and they
raised great-great Uncle Max as a Zelfwhack.
Anyway, I got my middle name from Granny Viciouse. Rumor has it that
she was Hell on wheels, too, which was a big to-do back in her day.
But thank you for asking. I'm a geneaology nut, just like my maternal
granny, Mary Bigg-Loudmouthe. My mother, Beah Loudmouthe-*****, didn't
bother because Garnny Mary's records were so thorough. Sadly, when
Granny Mary died, her archivist was unable to find the offical
Trollenslapper family tree, what with Mary's archive being absolutely
humungous. She's still looking (the archivist, not Granny Mary, because
Mary's dead). Maybe someday the official Trolle4nsalpper family tree
will be found again. I hope so, because some of the Zelfwhacks are
trying to distance themselves from the rest of the clan, and we really
do need to know which of them can legitimately claimn to be
Trollenslappers, due to the illegitimate birth of Maximus
(Trollenslapper) Zelfwhack.
I mean, I'm as open-minded as the next ***** with Trollenslapper
heritage, but the Zelfwhacks do tend to drink a bit much and cause
minor international skirmishes (don't ask).
Again, thanks for asking.
I guess in real life you would love to ask but you don't have the guts,
so you come here and do it.
And that's ok -- for you.

Oh and as for intelligence', forget it, you are not even on the first rung of
the ladder.

Well, consdidering that I am vastly more intelligent and creative than
you will ever be, that doesn't leave you looking too good, there, Boob.
Gosh, maybe you shouldn't have started something you can't finish.
Just a thought, Boob.
.

User: "bob young"
Title: Re: Resurrection Accounts Were Transmitted Faithfully From The Begining	31 Dec 2005 07:09:03 AM

wrote:

bob young wrote:

You really selected an appropriate handle didn't you?

***** is the family name. Allegedly, we are shirt-tail relations to the
famous French/Swiss composer, Marcel Bitsch, but our side of the family
dropped the S when they migrated across the Atlantic.
I am a descendant of Rudyard Onus *****, but that side of the family
was really boring until recently, when my half-borther, ***** *****,
divorced his 1st wife, Trish Fisch-*****, and married his new wife,
Mommalia M'yeye. (She's Maori, and she prefers to go by her nickname,
Mommie).
She also divorced her first husband, Sidney Slaapja (he was Finnish),
and Mommie M'yeye-Slaapja is now Mommie M'yeye-Slaapja-*****. I don't
know if her son, Ruckus Slaapja, will take on the ***** family name,
though.
But we still have the next generation of *****'s represented by my
adorable niece, Elizabeth Myass *****, daughter of my half-brother
Etthis (pronounced "EAT-this") and his wife, Nellie Dragge-*****. I
just adore my little niece, Bette-Myass. Haven't met my step-nephew
Ruckus yet, though. But I hear he's a caution.

On the maternal side, I am also a descendant of Viciouse Harde, who
married Hartcor Trollenslapper, and she became Viciouse
Harde-Trollensalpper. We're also shirt-tail relations to the Zelfwhack
clan, thanks to grandpa Hartcor marrying Babanette Comanja after he got
her knocked up with their son Maximus. After Hartcor and Babanette got
divorced, Babanette married Mortimer Handheld Zelfwhack, and they
raised great-great Uncle Max as a Zelfwhack.
Anyway, I got my middle name from Granny Viciouse. Rumor has it that
she was Hell on wheels, too, which was a big to-do back in her day.

But thank you for asking. I'm a geneaology nut, just like my maternal
granny, Mary Bigg-Loudmouthe. My mother, Beah Loudmouthe-*****, didn't
bother because Garnny Mary's records were so thorough. Sadly, when
Granny Mary died, her archivist was unable to find the offical
Trollenslapper family tree, what with Mary's archive being absolutely
humungous. She's still looking (the archivist, not Granny Mary, because
Mary's dead). Maybe someday the official Trolle4nsalpper family tree
will be found again. I hope so, because some of the Zelfwhacks are
trying to distance themselves from the rest of the clan, and we really
do need to know which of them can legitimately claimn to be
Trollenslappers, due to the illegitimate birth of Maximus
(Trollenslapper) Zelfwhack.
I mean, I'm as open-minded as the next ***** with Trollenslapper
heritage, but the Zelfwhacks do tend to drink a bit much and cause
minor international skirmishes (don't ask).

Again, thanks for asking.
I guess in real life you would love to ask but you don't have the guts,
so you come here and do it.
And that's ok -- for you.

Oh and as for intelligence', forget it, you are not even on the first rung of
the ladder.

Well, consdidering that I am vastly more intelligent and creative than
you will ever be, that doesn't leave you looking too good, there, Boob.

Gosh, maybe you shouldn't have started something you can't finish.
Just a thought, Boob.

to have my intelligence measured by someone who has just typed that load of
cobblers up there is a joke.
A WARM WELCOME TO THE 4C's Club
'The Clever Cynical Comments Club'
[Entry is free of charge]
Our Charter:
We are a select group who, through our own personal deprived upbringings [or some
similar detracting force] find that we get much pleasure in life through
insulting others. We believe our insults make us taller than the rest and, of
course, smarter. Our common efforts to create nasty jargon, comments, quips and
sayings is bar none and they are checked annually and awards given to the nastiest
member each year.
we are justly proud that many of our members are the nastiest people around.
Would members please try to invite more folks to our annual dinners as attendance
has been falling off recently.
And remember our slogan "If yer can't beat 'em INSULT 'EM"
.

User: "Santolina chamaecyparissus"
Title: Re: Resurrection Accounts Were Transmitted Faithfully From The Begining	25 Dec 2005 11:20:00 PM

words of truth wrote:

http://www.geocities.com/metacrock2000/Jesus_pages/Resurrection/Res_arg2.html

Resurrection Accounts:
Transmitted Faithfully From The Begining

And so is all that ***** about aliens in Area 51.
*****, you people are stupid.
.

User: "Terry Cross"
Title: Re: Resurrection Accounts Were Transmitted Faithfully From The Begining	26 Dec 2005 12:14:00 AM

Santolina chamaecyparissus wrote:

words of truth wrote:

http://www.geocities.com/metacrock2000/Jesus_pages/Resurrection/Res_arg2.html

Resurrection Accounts:
Transmitted Faithfully From The Begining

And so is all that ***** about aliens in Area 51.

*****, you people are stupid.

Your obsessive reference to gross bodily functions strongly suggests
your intellect is not adequate for the subject.
TCross
.

User: "Martin Edwards"
Title: Re: Resurrection Accounts Were Transmitted Faithfully From The Begining	26 Dec 2005 09:58:57 AM

Terry Cross wrote:

Santolina chamaecyparissus wrote:

words of truth wrote:

http://www.geocities.com/metacrock2000/Jesus_pages/Resurrection/Res_arg2.html

Resurrection Accounts:
Transmitted Faithfully From The Begining

And so is all that ***** about aliens in Area 51.

*****, you people are stupid.

Your obsessive reference to gross bodily functions strongly suggests
your intellect is not adequate for the subject.

TCross

My, my, how silly these folk are.
--
You can't fool me: there ain't no Sanity Clause - Chico Marx
www.geocities.com/Athens/Agora/1955
.

User: "Santolina chamaecyparissus"
Title: Re: Resurrection Accounts Were Transmitted Faithfully From The Begining	26 Dec 2005 05:47:33 PM

Terry Cross wrote:

Santolina chamaecyparissus wrote:

words of truth wrote:

http://www.geocities.com/metacrock2000/Jesus_pages/Resurrection/Res_arg2.html

Resurrection Accounts:
Transmitted Faithfully From The Begining

And so is all that ***** about aliens in Area 51.

*****, you people are stupid.

Your obsessive reference to gross bodily functions strongly suggests
your intellect is not adequate for the subject.

You're probably right, completely plausible stories about a God-man
rising from the dead are just way too advanced for a potty-mouth like
me to comprehend.
.

User: "Nick J."
Title: Re: Resurrection Accounts Were Transmitted Faithfully From The Begining	26 Dec 2005 05:51:54 PM

Santolina chamaecyparissus wrote:

Terry Cross wrote:

Santolina chamaecyparissus wrote:

words of truth wrote:

http://www.geocities.com/metacrock2000/Jesus_pages/Resurrection/Res_arg2.html

Resurrection Accounts:
Transmitted Faithfully From The Begining

And so is all that ***** about aliens in Area 51.

*****, you people are stupid.

Your obsessive reference to gross bodily functions strongly suggests
your intellect is not adequate for the subject.

You're probably right, completely plausible stories about a God-man
rising from the dead are just way too advanced for a potty-mouth like
me to comprehend.

Don't forget the talking snakes and donkeys! Unless the Secret
Christian Decoder Ring says those parts are just metaphor, of course >;D
.

User: ""
Title: Re: Resurrection Accounts Were Transmitted Faithfully From The Begining	27 Dec 2005 06:40:24 AM

Terry Cross wrote:

Santolina chamaecyparissus wrote:

words of truth wrote:

http://www.geocities.com/metacrock2000/Jesus_pages/Resurrection/Res_arg2.html

Resurrection Accounts:
Transmitted Faithfully From The Begining

And so is all that ***** about aliens in Area 51.

*****, you people are stupid.

Your obsessive reference to gross bodily functions strongly suggests
your intellect is not adequate for the subject.

========
He might not be smart, but I am in awe of anybody who can do anything
144 times.
"I'll have a gross of eggs."
"Sorry, we only have good-looking eggs."
Vaudeville isn't dead. It just smells that way.
- moshe
.

User: "Del"
Title: Re: Resurrection Accounts Were Transmitted Faithfully From The Begining	26 Dec 2005 07:46:46 AM

Terry Cross wrote:

Santolina chamaecyparissus wrote:

words of truth wrote:

http://www.geocities.com/metacrock2000/Jesus_pages/Resurrection/Res_arg2.html

Resurrection Accounts:
Transmitted Faithfully From The Begining

And so is all that ***** about aliens in Area 51.

*****, you people are stupid.

Your obsessive reference to gross bodily functions strongly suggests
your intellect is not adequate for the subject.

And thou shalt eat it as barley cakes, and thou shalt bake it
with dung that cometh out of man, in their sight. And the
LORD said, Even thus shall the children of Israel eat their
defiled bread among the Gentiles, whither I will drive them.
-Ezekiel 4:12-13
But Rabshakeh said unto them, Hath my master sent me to thy
master, and to thee, to speak these words? hath he not sent me
to the men which sit on the wall, that they may eat their own
dung, and drink their own ***** with you? -II Kings 18:27
"Did I not tell you earlier that a Jew is such a noble,
precious jewel that God and all