| Topic: |
Religions > Atheism |
| User: |
"Jason Spaceman" |
| Date: |
23 May 2005 06:57:56 AM |
| Object: |
Salman Rushdie: Just give me that old-time atheism! |
From the article:
-----------------------------------------------------------
"Not believing in God is no excuse for being virulently anti-religious
or naïvely pro-science," says Dylan Evans, a professor of robotics at
the University of West England in Bristol.
Evans has written an article for the Guardian of London deriding the
old-fashioned, "19th-century" atheism of such prominent thinkers as
Richard Dawkins and Jonathan Miller, instead proposing a new, modern
atheism which "values religion, treats science as simply a means to an
end and finds the meaning of life in art."
Indeed, he says, religion itself is to be understood as "a kind of
art, which only a child could mistake for reality and which only a
child would reject for being false."
Evans' position fits well with that of the American philosopher of
science Michael Ruse, whose new book, The Evolution-Creation Struggle,
lays much of the blame for the growth of creationism in America — and
for the increasingly strident attempts by the religious right to have
evolutionary theory kicked off the curriculum and replaced by the new
dogma of "intelligent design" — at the door of the scientists who have
tried to compete with, and even supplant, religion.
A staunch evolutionist himself, he is nevertheless highly critical of
such modern giants as Dawkins and Edward O. Wilson.
Evans' "Atheism Lite," which seeks to negotiate a truce between
religious and irreligious world views, is easily demolished.
Such a truce would have a chance of working only if it were reciprocal
— if the world's religions agreed to value the atheist position and to
concede its ethical basis, if they respected the discoveries and
achievements of modern science, even when these discoveries challenge
religious sanctities, and if they agreed that art at its best reveals
life's multiple meanings at least as clearly as so-called "revealed"
texts.
-------------------------------------------------------------
Read it at
http://www.thestar.com/NASApp/cs/ContentServer?pagename=thestar/Layout/Article_Type1&c=Article&cid=1116770647079&call_pageid=968256290204&col=968350116795
or http://tinyurl.com/7ka2y
(get a username & password at
http://www.bugmenot.com/view.php?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.thestar.com)
J. Spaceman
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: Salman Rushdie: Just give me that old-time atheism! |
23 May 2005 10:25:00 AM |
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Evans' position fits well with that of the American philosopher of
science Michael Ruse,
You've got to be at a serious disadvantage in the truth business if
your name happens to be a word for insincerity or deceit. That was
always the problem for Richard Swindell and Jonathan Hokum. :-) (And a
bit rough for Kant as well.)
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| User: "Barry Trotter" |
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| Title: Re: Salman Rushdie: Just give me that old-time atheism! |
23 May 2005 07:37:15 AM |
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In the great debate about "Salman Rushdie: Just give me that old-time
atheism!" in alt.atheism, Jason Spaceman
<notreally@jspaceman.homelinux.org> catapaulted the following boulder:
Such a truce would have a chance of working only if it were reciprocal
— if the world's religions agreed to value the atheist position and to
concede its ethical basis, if they respected the discoveries and
achievements of modern science, even when these discoveries challenge
religious sanctities, and if they agreed that art at its best reveals
life's multiple meanings at least as clearly as so-called "revealed"
texts.
Which, of course, they never will. IOW, religious tolerance is an
oxymoron.
David Silverman F.L.A.H.N. aa #2208
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| User: "Chris Hayes" |
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| Title: Re: Salman Rushdie: Just give me that old-time atheism! |
23 May 2005 12:33:40 PM |
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Jason Spaceman wrote:
From the article:
-----------------------------------------------------------
"Not believing in God is no excuse for being virulently
anti-religious
or naïvely pro-science," says Dylan Evans, a professor of robotics
at
the University of West England in Bristol.
Evans has written an article for the Guardian of London deriding the
old-fashioned, "19th-century" atheism of such prominent thinkers as
Richard Dawkins and Jonathan Miller, instead proposing a new, modern
atheism which "values religion, treats science as simply a means to
an
end and finds the meaning of life in art."
It would be nice is many monotheists (read Christian and Muslim
proselytizers)
would stop trying to put their religious beliefs into law.
Indeed, he says, religion itself is to be understood as "a kind of
art, which only a child could mistake for reality and which only a
child would reject for being false."
Evans' position fits well with that of the American philosopher of
science Michael Ruse, whose new book, The Evolution-Creation
Struggle,
lays much of the blame for the growth of creationism in America -
and
for the increasingly strident attempts by the religious right to have
evolutionary theory kicked off the curriculum and replaced by the new
dogma of "intelligent design" - at the door of the scientists who
have
tried to compete with, and even supplant, religion.
A staunch evolutionist himself, he is nevertheless highly critical of
such modern giants as Dawkins and Edward O. Wilson.
Evans' "Atheism Lite," which seeks to negotiate a truce between
religious and irreligious world views, is easily demolished.
Such a truce would have a chance of working only if it were
reciprocal
- if the world's religions agreed to value the atheist position and
to
concede its ethical basis, if they respected the discoveries and
achievements of modern science, even when these discoveries challenge
religious sanctities, and if they agreed that art at its best reveals
life's multiple meanings at least as clearly as so-called "revealed"
texts.
-------------------------------------------------------------
Read it at
http://www.thestar.com/NASApp/cs/ContentServer?pagename=thestar/Layout/Article_Type1&c=Article&cid=1116770647079&call_pageid=968256290204&col=968350116795
or http://tinyurl.com/7ka2y
(get a username & password at
http://www.bugmenot.com/view.php?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.thestar.com)
.
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| User: "The Last Conformist" |
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| Title: Re: Salman Rushdie: Just give me that old-time atheism! |
23 May 2005 12:44:12 PM |
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Jason Spaceman wrote:
From the article:
-----------------------------------------------------------
"Not believing in God is no excuse for being virulently
anti-religious
or naïvely pro-science," says Dylan Evans, a professor of robotics
at
the University of West England in Bristol.
Evans has written an article for the Guardian of London deriding the
old-fashioned, "19th-century" atheism of such prominent thinkers as
Richard Dawkins and Jonathan Miller, instead proposing a new, modern
atheism which "values religion, treats science as simply a means to
an
end and finds the meaning of life in art."
Indeed, he says, religion itself is to be understood as "a kind of
art, which only a child could mistake for reality and which only a
child would reject for being false."
Boy, is this guy arrogant?
Back when I was a believer, I'd found this Evans's views highly
offensive. (Dawkins, OTOH, never particularly annoyed me.)
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| User: "rich hammett" |
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| Title: Re: Salman Rushdie: Just give me that old-time atheism! |
23 May 2005 01:50:35 PM |
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In talk.origins The Last Conformist <andreasj@gmail.com> sanoi, hitaasti kuin hämähäkki:
Boy, is this guy arrogant?
Back when I was a believer, I'd found this Evans's views highly
offensive. (Dawkins, OTOH, never particularly annoyed me.)
True Believers can generally relate to Dawkins. He's an
evangelical atheist, like some of the numbered cadre on
this forum.
rich
--
-to reply, it's hot not warm
+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
\ Rich Hammett http://home.hiwaay.net/~rhammett
/ "Better the pride that resides in a citizen of the world;
\ than the pride that divides
/ when a colorful rag is unfurled."
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| User: "The Last Conformist" |
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| Title: Re: Salman Rushdie: Just give me that old-time atheism! |
23 May 2005 02:20:52 PM |
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rich hammett wrote:
In talk.origins The Last Conformist <andreasj@gmail.com> sanoi,
hitaasti kuin hämähäkki:
Boy, is this guy arrogant?
Back when I was a believer, I'd found this Evans's views highly
offensive. (Dawkins, OTOH, never particularly annoyed me.)
True Believers can generally relate to Dawkins. He's an
evangelical atheist, like some of the numbered cadre on
this forum.
I could never relate to his evangelical zeal, if that's what you mean.
It just fails to particularly annoy me. I do not think I was a True
Believer in the sense you mean.
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| User: "Marc Carter" |
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| Title: Re: Salman Rushdie: Just give me that old-time atheism! |
23 May 2005 04:33:41 PM |
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On Mon, 23 May 2005 12:20:52 -0700, The Last Conformist wrote:
rich hammett wrote:
In talk.origins The Last Conformist <andreasj@gmail.com> sanoi,
hitaasti kuin hämähäkki:
Boy, is this guy arrogant?
Back when I was a believer, I'd found this Evans's views highly
offensive. (Dawkins, OTOH, never particularly annoyed me.)
Yeah, I cannot imagine that there are too many believers who are going to
say, "Cool! There's no god, but this religion stuff is culturally
expressive and loads of fun!"
What an idiot. What do you suppose his audience is? Can't be believers,
can't be those who don't. That pretty much leaves him the agnostics, but
afaict, they don't really care that much.
True Believers can generally relate to Dawkins. He's an evangelical
atheist, like some of the numbered cadre on this forum.
I could never relate to his evangelical zeal, if that's what you mean. It
just fails to particularly annoy me. I do not think I was a True Believer
in the sense you mean.
I like it; I see it as a sort of militant atheism, and probably justified.
From some perspectives, religion has been a net bad for the world, and the
sooner we're rid of it, the better. The one nicest thing about
science is that with respect to matters of fact, you actually have a tool
that will tell you when you're wrong. Not so with religion. We cannot
decide which holy book is the *right* holy book, and they all seem to
claim that there can be only one right one, and which ever one you're
holding is the one.
In some of my less-dark moments I still hold out some hope that religion
is going to wind up in the net "good" column, although of late that hope
seems to be on the wane. All I see are increasingly strident and ossifying
groups effectively shouting at each other, "My god's gonna kick your god's
*******!"
Supremely childish, and very dangerous.
Religion beats Stalin and Hitler combined as the causal agent
in the most suffering humankind has seen. (Heck, religion probably beats
the Black Death.) If religion is ever going to redeem itself, it's got
quite a hole to get out of before it can even start.
m
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: Salman Rushdie: Just give me that old-time atheism! |
25 May 2005 07:45:11 AM |
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rich hammett wrote:
True Believers can generally relate to Dawkins. He's an
evangelical atheist, like some of the numbered cadre on
this forum.
By the way, what's a "numbered cadre"? I did try to look it up.
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| User: "BruceW" |
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| Title: Re: Salman Rushdie: Just give me that old-time atheism! |
25 May 2005 10:14:43 AM |
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wrote:
rich hammett wrote:
True Believers can generally relate to Dawkins. He's an
evangelical atheist, like some of the numbered cadre on
this forum.
By the way, what's a "numbered cadre"? I did try to look it up.
Perhaps the "aa#9999" in the .sigs of some alt.atheism posters?
http://www.alt-atheism.org/library/articles/article_view.php?c=&id=1:
8. The alt.atheism atheist/agnostic number list is a list of
atheists/agnostic from anywhere on the Internet. As long as
you are an atheist/agnostic who is involved in any aspect of
the Internet (newsgroups, WWW, lists, chats, etc., you are
welcome to join they may think. Stand up and be counted!
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| User: "jwk" |
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| Title: Re: Salman Rushdie: Just give me that old-time atheism! |
25 May 2005 09:25:31 AM |
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Jason Spaceman wrote:
From the article:
-----------------------------------------------------------
"Not believing in God is no excuse for being virulently anti-religious
or naïvely pro-science," says Dylan Evans, a professor of robotics at
the University of West England in Bristol.
Evans has written an article for the Guardian of London deriding the
old-fashioned, "19th-century" atheism of such prominent thinkers as
Richard Dawkins and Jonathan Miller, instead proposing a new, modern
atheism which "values religion, treats science as simply a means to an
end and finds the meaning of life in art."
Indeed, he says, religion itself is to be understood as "a kind of
art, which only a child could mistake for reality and which only a
child would reject for being false."
How many times can one guy say something stupid in one article? This
stuff is simple gibberish - "religion is to be understood as a kind of
art" indeed. What crap.
jwk
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| User: "Divin Marquis" |
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| Title: Re: Salman Rushdie: Just give me that old-time atheism! |
23 May 2005 07:56:51 AM |
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Le Mon, 23 May 2005 07:57:56 -0400, Jason Spaceman a écrit :
a new, modern
atheism which "values religion, treats science as simply a means to an end
and finds the meaning of life in art."
1. Value religion?
What value is there in Bush, Talebans, and other fundies?
2. Meaning of life?
Life has no meaning. Only crazies find meaning where there is none.
Additionally, art can be summarised as creating meaning for the sake of it.
It's certainly not the meaning of life -- since any art form, even
photography, is merely an artist's view.
In conclusion, that atheist's a fool.
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| User: "Stanley Friesen" |
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| Title: Re: Salman Rushdie: Just give me that old-time atheism! |
25 May 2005 08:33:36 AM |
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Divin Marquis <postmaster@127.0.0.1> wrote:
Le Mon, 23 May 2005 07:57:56 -0400, Jason Spaceman a écrit :
a new, modern
atheism which "values religion, treats science as simply a means to an end
and finds the meaning of life in art."
1. Value religion?
What value is there in Bush, Talebans, and other fundies?
None. But such are only a minor part of what religion is.
--
The peace of God be with you.
Stanley Friesen
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| User: "Dubh Ghall" |
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| Title: Re: Salman Rushdie: Just give me that old-time atheism! |
25 May 2005 07:39:22 PM |
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On Wed, 25 May 2005 06:33:36 -0700, Stanley Friesen <sarima@friesen.net> wrote:
What value is there in Bush, Talebans, and other fundies?
None. But such are only a minor part of what religion is.
Not so. Bush, Talebans, etc, are about control, which is the core function, of
religion.
--
Puck Greenman
The spelling, Like any opinion stated here,
is purely my own
#162 BAAWA Knight.
Plonked by Rob Duncan
Na bister 500,000
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| User: "Stanley Friesen" |
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| Title: Re: Salman Rushdie: Just give me that old-time atheism! |
26 May 2005 12:45:47 AM |
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Dubh Ghall <puck@pooks.hill.fey> wrote:
On Wed, 25 May 2005 06:33:36 -0700, Stanley Friesen <sarima@friesen.net> wrote:
What value is there in Bush, Talebans, and other fundies?
None. But such are only a minor part of what religion is.
Not so. Bush, Talebans, etc, are about control, which is the core function, of
religion.
Religion has many functions. And not all religious groups are about
control. Indeed, in general it is mainly the religious groups in
positions of power that have that orientation.
This is one of the reasons I strongly support Separation of Church and
State.
--
The peace of God be with you.
Stanley Friesen
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| User: "Cyde Weys" |
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| Title: Re: Salman Rushdie: Just give me that old-time atheism! |
25 May 2005 08:40:26 AM |
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Divin Marquis wrote:
2. Meaning of life?
Life has no meaning. Only crazies find meaning where there is none.
Additionally, art can be summarised as creating meaning for the sake of it.
Disagreed. Evolution itself tells us the meaning of life.
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: Salman Rushdie: Just give me that old-time atheism! |
25 May 2005 10:09:51 AM |
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Cyde Weys wrote:
Divin Marquis wrote:
2. Meaning of life?
Life has no meaning. Only crazies find meaning where there is none.
Additionally, art can be summarised as creating meaning for the sake of it.
Disagreed. Evolution itself tells us the meaning of life.
Lovely. Please explain. Include units where applicable.
I had always failed to find meaning in things like gravity
or electricity and magnitism.
With evolution, I find even the definition of life becomes
somewhat muddled. I look forward to hearing how it tells
__us__ the meaning of life.
<Note if you will: I find the earlier claim about "has no
meaning" about equally absurd, and I'm sure equally passionately
maintained as REVEALED TRVTH(TM).>
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