| Topic: |
Religions > Atheism |
| User: |
"johac" |
| Date: |
16 Jun 2007 07:04:52 PM |
| Object: |
Sam Brownback is a right wing Catholic extremist |
Take a look at this GOP candidate. Among other things, he would deny
abortion rights to rape victims. Thank goodness he's down in the polls.
---
Sam Brownback's Neo-Carlist Vision for America (The Catholic Right,
Thirty-two in a Series).
By Frank Cocozzelli Sat Jun 16, 2007 at 02:28:04 PM EST
As an American Catholic I am grateful for the separation of church and
state. My government's disentanglement from church policy positions
means that it cannot be used as the Vatican's policy enforcer. I am
secure in the knowledge that I can freely disagree with my faith's
hierarchy without fear of retribution or limitations upon my personal
pursuit of happiness.
Now comes U.S. Senator Sam Brownback (R-Ks.) in his bid to become the
Republican nominee for president in 2008. If elected, he promises to
enforce Vatican orthodoxy whether you are Catholic or not. Brownback is
a neo-Carlist -- a recent convert to Opus Dei-style Catholicism who
doesn't agree with JFK that Catholic elected officials should not to
take orders from the Vatican.
Senator Brownback's recent statement regarding rape victims possibly
being denied an abortion is troubling. And while it might play well with
a small minority of religious Jacobins, it displays complete disrespect
for followers of other faiths that do not oppose allowing their
followers from seeking an abortion in cases of rape or incest.
Earlier this week I learned about Brownback's recent speech before the
National Catholic Men's Conference, (as reported in the Houston
Chronicle) where the 2008 presidential candidate rhetorically asked:
"Rape is terrible. Rape is awful. Is it made any better by killing
an innocent child? Does it solve the problem for the woman that's been
raped?"
The senator from Kansas then answered his own question:
"We need to protect innocent life. Period," Brownback said.
This declaration reportedly brought the crowd of 500 to its feet.
Such a bold statement and the applause it garnered left me scratching my
head. Yes, I too am a Catholic, but it led me to wonder a few things
about audience members, especially if they had been born into a
different gender. Would the National Catholic Men's Conference be so
gung to outlaw abortion if any of them were the female victim of rape or
incest? Heaven forbid, if in fact a wife daughter or aunt were to become
pregnant as the result of a rape, would they still be so high-minded?
I think I can safely speak as representative of what most Catholic
Americans would: suggesting that abortion be denied to a woman who has
been raped is off-the-wall fanaticism, orthodoxy run amuck. And while
it might play well with a small minority of religious radicals, it
displays complete disrespect for followers of other faiths who do not
share such unusual views.
According to the Chronicle piece, Senator Brownback was introduced by
Steve Wood, the president of Family Life Center International -- an
organization that believes the Harry Potter series of book to be evil.
And as part of that introduction Woods restated a familiar Catholic
Right theme that speaks directly to respect of the Establishment Cause,
criticizing Catholic politicians --such as, without apparently naming
him, JFK -who fail to bring their faith into the elected offices they
occupy.
Wood was quoted as saying,
"I don't know about you, but this stuff by many Catholic politicians
who say, 'I'm personally opposed, but.' But what? You should have the
integrity to be consistent in both the personal and public life."
Apparently for Mr. Wood and his featured speaker, bringing faith into
public life requires going beyond the commonly held moralities of a
pluralistic society. Instead, it means imposing the subjective morality
(and a highly selective interpretation at that) of orthodox Catholicism
over other faiths. It is in fact nothing more than the de facto
establishment of a state religion.
Naturally, Senator Brownback is a darling of the Religious Right who
counts among his supporters Priests for Life Father Frank Pavone as well
Catholic Right moneyman Tom Monaghan. And as I have illustrated, he may
have both Fidelis and the Catholic League tag-teaming potential
opponents, particularly as of late the pro-choice Rudy Giuliani.
In Brownback they see a committed cultural warrior who has long opposed
embryonic stem cell research even when a clear majority of Americans,
including Catholics desire for it to be federally funded. He is also an
opponent of women's reproductive rights and same-sex marriage. Thus is
comes as no surprise that the authoritarian Opus Dei is the source of
his particular brand of Catholicism.
Brownback is also a member of The Fellowship, which Sourcewatch
describes as "a humanitarian religious-right Christian organization
about which very little is known."
Journalist Jeff Sharlet's article on the Kansas crusader in his January
25, 2006 Rolling Stone article shows that not only little known about
The Fellowship, but that more should be known about the secretive, even
cultic society:
One of the little-known strengths of the Christian right lies in its
adoption of the "cell" -- the building block historically used by small
but determined groups to impose their will on the majority. Seventy
years ago, an evangelist named Abraham Vereide founded a network of
"God-led" cells comprising senators and generals, corporate executives
and preachers. Vereide believed that the cells -- God's chosen,
appointed to power -- could construct a Kingdom of God on earth with
Washington as its capital. They would do so "behind the scenes," lest
they be accused of pride or a hunger for power, and "beyond the din of
vox populi," which is to say, outside the bounds of democracy. To
insiders, the cells were known as the Family, or the Fellowship. To most
outsiders, they were not known at all.
"In his dream America," Sharlet continues, "the one he believes both the
Bible and the Constitution promise, the state will simply wither away.
In its place will be a country so suffused with God and the free market
that the social fabric of the last hundred years -- schools, Social
Security, welfare -- will be privatized or simply done away with."
As I observed in Part Twenty-seven of this series when discussing the
same possible agenda existing among Opus Dei-influenced members of the
U.S. Supreme Court:
This [Opus Dei's] agenda would infuse our common judicial system
with a view of morality less based upon the notion of overlapping
consensus and much more on a highly subjective form Catholic morality
which looks to foreign head of state to inform American judicial
philosophy. The foreign nation in question is the Vatican, a nation the
United States recognizes and maintains diplomatic relations. This is
significant in part because while JFK was very clear that he would
respect the separation of church and state in carrying out his
responsibilities as president, adherents of Opus Dei and similar groups
have a radically different view, as former Senator Santorum made crystal
clear.
This goes beyond the separation of church and state. It can be
reasonably seen as the laws of sovereign state being imposed upon
another. And it must be remembered that in the United States,
sovereignty is vested in the people who through the democratic process
make their elected leadership accountable to them. Vatican sovereignty,
on the other hand, is vested in a pope -- a monarch elected from among
about 100 top church officials who are themselves appointed by a monarch.
Much like Opus Dei founder JoseMaria Escriva' and devotee, former U.S.
Senator Rick Santorum, Brownback believes that JFK's pledge he would not
take orders from the Vatican has caused "much harm in America." This is,
in fact, it is nothing more than neo-Carlism: the highly subjective
belief that orthodox notions of Catholicism should be legislated as the
stated morality of secular government - even if it results in state
action that abridges the religious freedom of all others.
I, however, come to a very different conclusion than Brownback. If he
does ultimately reach the Oval Office, it will be his pledge to not to
separate his faith from his actions that that will do the most harm to
American democracy. It is nothing more than a pledge to refute JFK's
legacy of respecting the Establishment Clause.
The Catholic Right: A Series, by Frank L. Cocozzelli
---
http://www.talk2action.org/story/2007/6/16/14284/4712
--
John #1782
"We should always be disposed to believe that which appears to us to be
white is really black, if the hierarchy of the church so decides."
- Saint Ignatius Loyola (1491-1556) Founder of the Jesuit Order.
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| User: "quibbler" |
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| Title: Re: Sam Brownback is a right wing Catholic extremist |
16 Jun 2007 11:08:12 PM |
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In article <jhachmann-095436.17045216062007@news.giganews.com>,
jhachmann@remove.sbcglobal.net says...
"Rape is terrible. Rape is awful. Is it made any better by killing
an innocent child?
It's not a child and it's not innocent. It is tresspassing inside a body
that does not want it there and is not required to let it stay there.
Does it solve the problem for the woman that's been
raped?"
Ummmm....yes, in fact it does...at least in part. If a woman cannot
abort after being raped then any man could force a woman to bear his
child just by raping her. I suppose Sammy BrownBeak thinks that rape
will be less traumatic if he passes laws saying that now the woman must
bear the child for a full nine-month term? Does BrownNose really think
he'll score any Brownie points with the pope for this?
--
Quibbler (quibbler247atyahoo.com)
"It is fashionable to wax apocalyptic about the
threat to humanity posed by the AIDS virus, 'mad cow'
disease, and many others, but I think a case can be
made that faith is one of the world's great evils,
comparable to the smallpox virus but harder to
eradicate." -- Richard Dawkins
.
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| User: "johac" |
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| Title: Re: Sam Brownback is a right wing Catholic extremist |
17 Jun 2007 01:01:43 AM |
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In article <MPG.20de61947e6c4ab2989fb0@news.readfreenews.net>,
quibbler <quibbler247@yahoo.com> wrote:
In article <jhachmann-095436.17045216062007@news.giganews.com>,
jhachmann@remove.sbcglobal.net says...
"Rape is terrible. Rape is awful. Is it made any better by killing
an innocent child?
It's not a child and it's not innocent. It is tresspassing inside a body
that does not want it there and is not required to let it stay there.
Does it solve the problem for the woman that's been
raped?"
Ummmm....yes, in fact it does...at least in part. If a woman cannot
abort after being raped then any man could force a woman to bear his
child just by raping her. I suppose Sammy BrownBeak thinks that rape
will be less traumatic if he passes laws saying that now the woman must
bear the child for a full nine-month term? Does BrownNose really think
he'll score any Brownie points with the pope for this?
I'm sure Brownspot would be against emergency contraception too since
loons like him consider it a form of abortion. It is not.
--
John #1782
"We should always be disposed to believe that which appears to us to be
white is really black, if the hierarchy of the church so decides."
- Saint Ignatius Loyola (1491-1556) Founder of the Jesuit Order.
.
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| User: "duke" |
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| Title: Re: Sam Brownback is a right wing Catholic extremist |
17 Jun 2007 03:11:43 PM |
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On Sat, 16 Jun 2007 23:01:43 -0700, johac <jhachmann@remove.sbcglobal.net>
wrote:
I'm sure Brownspot would be against emergency contraception too since
loons like him consider it a form of abortion. It is not.
What is it then - baking a cake?
duke, American-American
*****
"The Mass is the most perfect form of Prayer."
Pope Paul VI
*****
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| User: "quibbler" |
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| Title: Re: Sam Brownback is a right wing Catholic extremist |
18 Jun 2007 12:49:18 PM |
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On Jun 17, 2:11 pm, duke <duckgumb...@cox.net> wrote:
On Sat, 16 Jun 2007 23:01:43 -0700, johac <jhachm...@remove.sbcglobal.net>
wrote:
I'm sure Brownspot would be against emergency contraception too since
loons like him consider it a form of abortion. It is not.
What is it then - baking a cake?
Wow, your ignorance really does "take the cake". Emergency
contraception primarily controls ovulation so that conception can't
happen in the first place. Therefore, there is nothing to abort, you
fucking moron. Contrary to anti-abort propaganda, it's not clear that
emergency contraception has a significant effect upon implantation.
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| User: "Brian E. Clark" |
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| Title: Re: Sam Brownback is a right wing Catholic extremist |
20 Jun 2007 02:56:08 PM |
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In article <1182188958.415154.64650
@u2g2000hsc.googlegroups.com>, quibbler said...
Wow, your ignorance really does "take the cake". Emergency
contraception primarily controls ovulation so that conception can't
happen in the first place. Therefore, there is nothing to abort, you
fucking moron. Contrary to anti-abort propaganda, it's not clear that
emergency contraception has a significant effect upon implantation.
Uh, quibbler, you're trying to explain details of
thermodynamics to someone who doesn't understand
the difference between a match and a lighter.
--
-----------
Brian E. Clark
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| User: "johac" |
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| Title: Re: Sam Brownback is a right wing Catholic extremist |
18 Jun 2007 05:39:26 PM |
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In article <1182188958.415154.64650@u2g2000hsc.googlegroups.com>,
quibbler <quibbler247@yahoo.com> wrote:
On Jun 17, 2:11 pm, duke <duckgumb...@cox.net> wrote:
On Sat, 16 Jun 2007 23:01:43 -0700, johac <jhachm...@remove.sbcglobal.net>
wrote:
I'm sure Brownspot would be against emergency contraception too since
loons like him consider it a form of abortion. It is not.
What is it then - baking a cake?
Wow, your ignorance really does "take the cake". Emergency
contraception primarily controls ovulation so that conception can't
happen in the first place. Therefore, there is nothing to abort, you
fucking moron. Contrary to anti-abort propaganda, it's not clear that
emergency contraception has a significant effect upon implantation.
Dookie doesn't understand the difference.
--
John #1782
"We should always be disposed to believe that which appears to us to be
white is really black, if the hierarchy of the church so decides."
- Saint Ignatius Loyola (1491-1556) Founder of the Jesuit Order.
.
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| User: "duke" |
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| Title: Re: Sam Brownback is a right wing Catholic extremist |
18 Jun 2007 04:48:19 PM |
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On Mon, 18 Jun 2007 10:49:18 -0700, quibbler <quibbler247@yahoo.com> wrote:
I'm sure Brownspot would be against emergency contraception too since
loons like him consider it a form of abortion. It is not.
What is it then - baking a cake?
Wow, your ignorance really does "take the cake". Emergency
contraception primarily controls ovulation so that conception can't
happen in the first place. Therefore, there is nothing to abort, you
fucking moron. Contrary to anti-abort propaganda, it's not clear that
emergency contraception has a significant effect upon implantation.
Haahaahaahaa. Contrary to **their** views?????????? Haahaahaahaahaa.
duke, American-American
*****
"The Mass is the most perfect form of Prayer."
Pope Paul VI
*****
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| User: "quibbler" |
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| Title: Re: Sam Brownback is a right wing Catholic extremist |
18 Jun 2007 09:13:26 PM |
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In article <savd73p45qr515hjt8kppbd4kl20i7s4ov@4ax.com>,
duckgumbo32@cox.net says...
On Mon, 18 Jun 2007 10:49:18 -0700, quibbler <quibbler247@yahoo.com> wrote:
I'm sure Brownspot would be against emergency contraception too since
loons like him consider it a form of abortion. It is not.
What is it then - baking a cake?
Wow, your ignorance really does "take the cake". Emergency
contraception primarily controls ovulation so that conception can't
happen in the first place. Therefore, there is nothing to abort, you
fucking moron. Contrary to anti-abort propaganda, it's not clear that
emergency contraception has a significant effect upon implantation.
Haahaahaahaa. Contrary to **their** views?????????? Haahaahaahaahaa.
You clearly don't understand what was communicated to you, but what else
is new. You rail against technologies and procedures without even
understanding them.
--
Quibbler (quibbler247atyahoo.com)
"It is fashionable to wax apocalyptic about the
threat to humanity posed by the AIDS virus, 'mad cow'
disease, and many others, but I think a case can be
made that faith is one of the world's great evils,
comparable to the smallpox virus but harder to
eradicate." -- Richard Dawkins
.
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| User: "duke" |
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| Title: Was quibbler intended to be a dog? |
17 Jun 2007 03:10:58 PM |
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On Sat, 16 Jun 2007 22:08:12 -0600, quibbler <quibbler247@yahoo.com> wrote:
In article <jhachmann-095436.17045216062007@news.giganews.com>,
jhachmann@remove.sbcglobal.net says...
"Rape is terrible. Rape is awful. Is it made any better by killing
an innocent child?
It's not a child and it's not innocent. It is tresspassing inside a body
that does not want it there and is not required to let it stay there.
If it's not a human child, then what is it - a dog?
Does it solve the problem for the woman that's been
raped?"
Ummmm....yes, in fact it does...at least in part. If a woman cannot
abort after being raped then any man could force a woman to bear his
child just by raping her.
Is this quib's concept of the birds and the bees?
I suppose Sammy BrownBeak thinks that rape
will be less traumatic if he passes laws saying that now the woman must
bear the child for a full nine-month term? Does BrownNose really think
he'll score any Brownie points with the pope for this?
Forget the Pope. God smiles on the Senator.
duke, American-American
*****
"The Mass is the most perfect form of Prayer."
Pope Paul VI
*****
.
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| User: "quibbler" |
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| Title: Re: Was quibbler intended to be a dog? |
17 Jun 2007 10:08:51 PM |
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In article <ov4b735bf57o53h1ic3urtog469jndivd5@4ax.com>,
duckgumbo32@cox.net says...
On Sat, 16 Jun 2007 22:08:12 -0600, quibbler <quibbler247@yahoo.com> wrote:
In article <jhachmann-095436.17045216062007@news.giganews.com>,
jhachmann@remove.sbcglobal.net says...
"Rape is terrible. Rape is awful. Is it made any better by killing
an innocent child?
It's not a child and it's not innocent. It is tresspassing inside a body
that does not want it there and is not required to let it stay there.
If it's not a human child, then what is it - a dog?
It's not even that. A 2x4 is not a house and a fetus is not a child.
Get a fucking clue.
Does it solve the problem for the woman that's been
raped?"
Ummmm....yes, in fact it does...at least in part. If a woman cannot
abort after being raped then any man could force a woman to bear his
child just by raping her.
Is this quib's concept of the birds and the bees?
Unlike you I've actually had sex with real, decent-looking, fully-
conscious, consenting women, without having to pay them for it. You've
only had a priest's ***** in your mouth and/or *****, which are pretty much
the same thing, in your case.
I suppose Sammy BrownBeak thinks that rape
will be less traumatic if he passes laws saying that now the woman must
bear the child for a full nine-month term? Does BrownNose really think
he'll score any Brownie points with the pope for this?
Forget the Pope.
He is largely forgetable anyway.
God smiles on the Senator.
Provide photographic evidence or shut the ***** up.
--
Quibbler (quibbler247atyahoo.com)
"It is fashionable to wax apocalyptic about the
threat to humanity posed by the AIDS virus, 'mad cow'
disease, and many others, but I think a case can be
made that faith is one of the world's great evils,
comparable to the smallpox virus but harder to
eradicate." -- Richard Dawkins
.
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| User: "duke" |
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| Title: Re: Was quibbler intended to be a dog? |
18 Jun 2007 11:17:11 AM |
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On Sun, 17 Jun 2007 21:08:51 -0600, quibbler <quibbler247@yahoo.com> wrote:
It's not a child and it's not innocent. It is tresspassing inside a body
that does not want it there and is not required to let it stay there.
If it's not a human child, then what is it - a dog?
It's not even that. A 2x4 is not a house and a fetus is not a child.
Get a fucking clue.
A fetus will only grow up to become a human child, never a dog.
duke, American-American
*****
"The Mass is the most perfect form of Prayer."
Pope Paul VI
*****
.
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| User: "quibbler" |
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| Title: Re: Was quibbler intended to be a dog? |
18 Jun 2007 01:10:09 PM |
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On Jun 18, 10:17 am, duke <duckgumb...@cox.net> wrote:
On Sun, 17 Jun 2007 21:08:51 -0600, quibbler <quibbler...@yahoo.com> wrote:
It's not a child and it's not innocent. It is tresspassing inside a body
that does not want it there and is not required to let it stay there.
If it's not a human child, then what is it - a dog?
It's not even that. A 2x4 is not a house and a fetus is not a child.
Get a fucking clue.
A fetus will only grow up to become a human child, never a dog.
If that were true then how could we explain you, mongrel boy? In any
event, your point is irrelevant. A 2x4 doesn't become a fucking dog
either. But that doesn't make a 2x4 the same as a house. The fact
that you have admitted that a fetus has to "grow up to become a human
child" means that it is not a child now, which means that abortion is
not the killing of a human child and therefore not murder. Thus, you
have lost the debate, as usual, you fucking moron.
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| User: "duke" |
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| Title: Re: Was quibbler intended to be a dog? |
18 Jun 2007 04:45:03 PM |
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On Mon, 18 Jun 2007 11:10:09 -0700, quibbler <quibbler247@yahoo.com> wrote:
On Jun 18, 10:17 am, duke <duckgumb...@cox.net> wrote:
On Sun, 17 Jun 2007 21:08:51 -0600, quibbler <quibbler...@yahoo.com> wrote:
It's not a child and it's not innocent. It is tresspassing inside a body
that does not want it there and is not required to let it stay there.
If it's not a human child, then what is it - a dog?
It's not even that. A 2x4 is not a house and a fetus is not a child.
Get a fucking clue.
A fetus will only grow up to become a human child, never a dog.
If that were true then how could we explain you, mongrel boy?
I'm a human being, even if you're not.
In any
event, your point is irrelevant. A 2x4 doesn't become a fucking dog
either. But that doesn't make a 2x4 the same as a house.
From the moment of conception, a human fetus is a human being in the very
beginnings of life.
It will never become a dog. It will only grow up to be a full fledged human
being, and hence it is human.
duke, American-American
*****
"The Mass is the most perfect form of Prayer."
Pope Paul VI
*****
.
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| User: "quibbler" |
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| Title: Re: Was quibbler intended to be a dog? |
18 Jun 2007 09:09:44 PM |
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In article <83vd73l41hvclrmcl9mtfr2dianv1v3ogd@4ax.com>,
duckgumbo32@cox.net says...
On Mon, 18 Jun 2007 11:10:09 -0700, quibbler <quibbler247@yahoo.com> wrote:
On Jun 18, 10:17 am, duke <duckgumb...@cox.net> wrote:
On Sun, 17 Jun 2007 21:08:51 -0600, quibbler <quibbler...@yahoo.com> wrote:
It's not a child and it's not innocent. It is tresspassing inside a body
that does not want it there and is not required to let it stay there.
If it's not a human child, then what is it - a dog?
It's not even that. A 2x4 is not a house and a fetus is not a child.
Get a fucking clue.
A fetus will only grow up to become a human child, never a dog.
If that were true then how could we explain you, mongrel boy?
I'm a human being, even if you're not.
In any
event, your point is irrelevant. A 2x4 doesn't become a fucking dog
either. But that doesn't make a 2x4 the same as a house.
From the moment of conception,
There is no "moment" of conception, dookie, you motherfukcing idiot.
Fertilization takes place over an extended period of time. A zygote
might be a blueprint for building a human, but it is not a human, just as
a blueprint of a building is not a building. A recipe for baking a cake
is not the same as the actual cake itself.
a human fetus is a human being
No, it hasn't been build into a human yet, just as the foundation of a
house has not become a house yet.
in the very
beginnings of life.
No, it has not been made into a human yet. A single-celled organism is
not a live human being, because it, like you, does not have a brain.
Therefore it is brain-dead, like you, and therefore does not qualify as
alive, by the standard that medical science applies to human beings.
It will never become a dog.
Irrelevant. It will never become anything, since it's aborted. Now the
CrapLic Church says there is no limbo and that aborted fetuses go
straight to heaven. So quit yer bitchin', you stupid little twat.
It will only grow up to be a full fledged human
Then you admit it's not full-fledged before and therefore does not merit
the same rights or greater rights than the mother.
being, and hence it is human.
No, hence you have admitted that it is not a full-fledged human and
indeed it is not a live human person at all, since it, like you, lacks a
functional brain, you fucking moron.
--
Quibbler (quibbler247atyahoo.com)
"It is fashionable to wax apocalyptic about the
threat to humanity posed by the AIDS virus, 'mad cow'
disease, and many others, but I think a case can be
made that faith is one of the world's great evils,
comparable to the smallpox virus but harder to
eradicate." -- Richard Dawkins
.
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