Religions > Atheism > San Diego: Prayer in school is okay, so long as it's Muslim
| Topic: |
Religions > Atheism |
| User: |
"BTR1701" |
| Date: |
13 Jul 2007 09:30:50 PM |
| Object: |
San Diego: Prayer in school is okay, so long as it's Muslim |
So why is it a violation of the Constitution to have a moment of silence
in which no specific type of prayer is even mentioned, let alone
endorsed, but it's legally acceptable to set aside special time during
the school day for Muslim kids to pray? And why is okay to set aside
this time for Muslims but when Christians and Jews ask for the same
privilege for their kids, they're denied?
And apparently the University of Michigan is using funds paid for by
student fees to install Muslim prayer foot-washing equipment on campus.
I don't know if they're paying for Christian and/or Jewish worship
facilities or not but this would also seem to be a constitutional issue.
So far, the ACLU's position-- the same organization that swoops in the
moment anyone uses the word "Christmas" in a public school-- is that
this is perfectly reasonable accommodation and they have no problem with
it.
And of course what gets lost in the whole ruckus is the atheists who
have a right not to be bothered by any of this superstitious nonsense.
http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/metro/20070702-9999-1n2prayer.html
S.D. elementary at center of dispute
By Helen Gao
UNION-TRIBUNE STAFF WRITER
July 2, 2007
A San Diego public school has become part of a national debate over
religion in schools ever since a substitute teacher publicly condemned
an Arabic language program that gives Muslim students time for prayer
during school hours.
Carver Elementary in Oak Park added Arabic to its curriculum in
September when it suddenly absorbed more than 100 students from a
defunct charter school that had served mostly Somali Muslims.
After subbing at Carver, the teacher claimed that religious
indoctrination was taking place and said that a school aide had led
Muslim students in prayer.
An investigation by the San Diego Unified School District failed to
substantiate the allegations. But critics continue to assail Carver for
providing a 15-minute break in the classroom each afternoon to
accommodate Muslim students who wish to pray. (Those who don't pray can
read or write during that non-instructional time.)
Some say the arrangement at Carver constitutes special treatment for a
specific religion that is not extended to other faiths. Others believe
it crosses the line into endorsement of religion.
Supporters of Carver say such an accommodation is legal, if not
mandatory, under the law. They note the district and others have been
sued for not accommodating religious needs on the same level as
non-religious needs, such as a medical appointment.
Islam requires its adherents to pray at prescribed times, one of which
falls during the school day.
While some parents say they care more about their children's education
than a debate about religious freedom, the allegations made at a school
board meeting in April have made Carver the subject of heated
discussions on conservative talk radio. District officials have been
besieged by letters and phone calls, some laced with invective.
The issue has drawn the attention of national groups concerned about
civil rights and religious liberty. The Council on American-Islamic
Relations, Anti-Defamation League, American Civil Liberties Union and
the Pacific Justice Institute are some of the groups monitoring
developments in California's second-largest school district.
Among the critics is Richard Thompson, president and chief counsel with
the nonprofit, Michigan-based Thomas More Law Center devoted to
³defending the religious freedom of Christians.²
He said he's ³against double standards being used,² such as when there
is a specific period for Muslim students to pray and not a similar
arrangement for Christians.
Carver's supporters noted that Christianity and other religions, unlike
Islam, do not require their followers to pray at specific times that
fall within school hours, when children by law must be in school. Amid
the controversy, the district is studying alternatives to the break to
accommodate student prayer.
Capitalizing on what it considers a precedent-setting opportunity
created by the Carver situation, the Sacramento-based Pacific Justice
Institute has offered to help craft a districtwide ³Daily Prayer Time
Policy.²
In a letter, the religious-rights organization urged the district to
broaden its accommodations to Christians and Jews by setting aside
separate classrooms for daily prayer and to permit rabbis, priests and
other religious figures to lead children in worship on campuses.
A lawyer representing the district said those ideas would violate the
Constitution's prohibition against government establishment of religion.
The uproar over Carver comes as schools across the country grapple with
how to accommodate growing Muslim populations. In recent weeks, the
University of Michigan's Dearborn campus has been divided over using
student fees to install foot-washing stations on campus to make it
easier for Muslim students to cleanse themselves before prayer.
³These things are surfacing more and more in many places where large
communities of Muslims are coming in and trying to say this is our
right,² said Antoine Mefleh, a non-Muslim who is an Arabic language
instructor with the Minneapolis public schools.
His school allows Muslim students to organize an hour of prayer on
Fridays Muslims typically have Friday congregational prayers and make
up class work they miss as a result. During the rest of the week,
students pray during lunch or recess.
The San Diego chapter of the Council on American-Islamic Relations
supports the Carver program.
³Our country is transforming demographically, religiously,² said Edgar
Hopida, the chapter's public relations director. ³Our country has to now
accommodate things that are not traditionally accounted for before.²
Carol Clipper, who is the guardian of two grandchildren enrolled in the
school's Arabic program, said she believes students should be ³given the
freedom² to pray. Clipper is Christian, and her grandchildren are being
raised in both Islam and Christianity.
³I take them to the mosque and they go to church with me,² she said.
Another parent, Tony Peregrino, whose son is not in the Arabic program,
said he's OK with the Muslim students praying. What he cares about, he
said, is that teachers are doing their job, and his son's education is
not affected.
Courts have ruled on a series of school prayer cases over the past
half-century, but legal scholars say a lack of clarity remains.
³This is an area where the law is notoriously erratic,² said Steven
Smith, a constitutional law professor at the University of San Diego.
Voluntary prayers by students are protected private speech, the courts
have said. That means students can say grace before a meal and have
Bible study clubs on campus, and several San Diego schools do. Public
school employees, however, cannot lead children in prayer on campus.
Students also can be excused for religious holidays, such as Yom Kippur,
the Jewish day of atonement, and Good Friday during Holy Week.
The federal Equal Access Act requires that extracurricular school clubs,
religious and non-religious, be treated equally.
San Diego Unified was sued in 1993 when it denied a University City High
School student's request to hold lunchtime Bible fellowship. The court
found the district discriminated against religion, because it allowed
secular clubs to meet during lunch.
Brent North, a lawyer retained by the district to address concerns
related to the Carver program, said the district learned from the
University City High case to be ³careful about restricting students'
right to their own private religious expression, including when it's on
campus.²
The district cites Department of Education guidelines on prayer:
³Where school officials have a practice of excusing students from class
on the basis of parents' requests for accommodation of non-religious
needs, religiously motivated requests for excusal may not be accorded
less favorable treatment.²
The midday prayer for Muslims here generally falls between 1 and 2 p.m.,
North said, and that is before the school day ends.
³What is unique about this request is the specificity of the religious
requirement that a prayer be offered at a certain time on the clock,² he
said.
North went on to say, ³The district's legal obligation in response to a
request that a prayer must be performed at a particular time is to treat
that request the same as it would treat a student's request to receive
an insulin shot at a particular time.²
Mefleh, the Minneapolis Arabic instructor, said he allows his Muslim
students to pray at the end of class during the monthlong observance of
Ramadan, Islam's holiest period.
³Some accommodation has to come from both sides,² he said. ³I just tell
them prayer is good. Class is good, too. Your time is precious. You have
to come to an agreement with them without making a big fuss. If you want
to pray, I understand, but I don't want to interrupt the class too much.²
.
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| User: "J Forbes" |
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| Title: Re: San Diego: Prayer in school is okay, so long as it's Muslim |
14 Jul 2007 01:48:02 AM |
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<snipped crossposting so you probably won't even see it>
BTR1701 wrote:
So why is it a violation of the Constitution to have a moment of silence
in which no specific type of prayer is even mentioned, let alone
endorsed, but it's legally acceptable to set aside special time during
the school day for Muslim kids to pray?
The typical Christian school prayer problem is that they expect ALL
students to participate. this looks like a different situation.
.
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| User: "BTR1701" |
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| Title: Re: San Diego: Prayer in school is okay, so long as it's Muslim |
14 Jul 2007 09:01:39 AM |
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|
In article <1184395682.402249.187190@z28g2000prd.googlegroups.com>,
J Forbes <jforbnospam@selectric.org> wrote:
<snipped crossposting so you probably won't even see it>
BTR1701 wrote:
So why is it a violation of the Constitution to have a moment of silence
in which no specific type of prayer is even mentioned, let alone
endorsed, but it's legally acceptable to set aside special time during
the school day for Muslim kids to pray?
The typical Christian school prayer problem is that they expect ALL
students to participate. this looks like a different situation.
No, many Christian school prayer proposals have included the ability for
any non-Christian kids to be excused and not participate (just like in
this case where the non-Muslims don't participate), yet they were found
to be unconstitutional.
.
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| User: "Douglas Berry" |
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| Title: Re: San Diego: Prayer in school is okay, so long as it's Muslim |
14 Jul 2007 10:39:30 AM |
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On Sat, 14 Jul 2007 10:01:39 -0400 there was an Ancient BTR1701
<btr1702@ix.netcom.com> who stoppeth one in alt.atheism
In article <1184395682.402249.187190@z28g2000prd.googlegroups.com>,
J Forbes <jforbnospam@selectric.org> wrote:
<snipped crossposting so you probably won't even see it>
BTR1701 wrote:
So why is it a violation of the Constitution to have a moment of silence
in which no specific type of prayer is even mentioned, let alone
endorsed, but it's legally acceptable to set aside special time during
the school day for Muslim kids to pray?
The typical Christian school prayer problem is that they expect ALL
students to participate. this looks like a different situation.
No, many Christian school prayer proposals have included the ability for
any non-Christian kids to be excused and not participate (just like in
this case where the non-Muslims don't participate), yet they were found
to be unconstitutional.
That's because they were organzied and led by state employees. That,
sir, is establishment.
There is nothing preventing anyone from taking a moment to pray. In
fact, for Christians, Jesus makes it clear that praying in public is
wrong.
Matthew 6:5 And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the
hypocrites are: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and
in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. Verily I
say unto you, They have their reward.
Matthew 6:6 But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and
when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret;
and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly.
Matthew 6:7 But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the
heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much
speaking.
--
Douglas Berry Do the OBVIOUS thing to send e-mail
Atheist #2147, Atheist Vet #5
Jason Gastrich is praying for me on 8 January 2011
"The most beautiful thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the
source of all true art and all science. He to whom this emotion is a
stranger, who can no longer pause to wonder and stand rapt in awe, is as
good as dead: his eyes are closed." - Albert Einstein
.
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| User: "BTR1701" |
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| Title: Re: San Diego: Prayer in school is okay, so long as it's Muslim |
14 Jul 2007 05:00:37 PM |
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In article <nbrh93tpcqa0k9rinpvmah8r9l875iqj5o@4ax.com>,
Douglas Berry <penguin_boy@mindOBVIOUSspring.com> wrote:
On Sat, 14 Jul 2007 10:01:39 -0400 there was an Ancient BTR1701
<btr1702@ix.netcom.com> who stoppeth one in alt.atheism
In article <1184395682.402249.187190@z28g2000prd.googlegroups.com>,
J Forbes <jforbnospam@selectric.org> wrote:
<snipped crossposting so you probably won't even see it>
BTR1701 wrote:
So why is it a violation of the Constitution to have a moment of silence
in which no specific type of prayer is even mentioned, let alone
endorsed, but it's legally acceptable to set aside special time during
the school day for Muslim kids to pray?
The typical Christian school prayer problem is that they expect ALL
students to participate. this looks like a different situation.
No, many Christian school prayer proposals have included the ability for
any non-Christian kids to be excused and not participate (just like in
this case where the non-Muslims don't participate), yet they were found
to be unconstitutional.
That's because they were organzied and led by state employees. That,
sir, is establishment.
Who is organizing and facilitating these Muslim prayer times, if not the
school employees? I hardly think it's the kids themselves that carved
out the time during the school day and put these measures in place.
.
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| User: "Josh Rosenbluth" |
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| Title: Re: San Diego: Prayer in school is okay, so long as it's Muslim |
14 Jul 2007 05:53:29 PM |
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BTR1701 wrote:
In article <nbrh93tpcqa0k9rinpvmah8r9l875iqj5o@4ax.com>,
Douglas Berry <penguin_boy@mindOBVIOUSspring.com> wrote:
On Sat, 14 Jul 2007 10:01:39 -0400 there was an Ancient BTR1701
<btr1702@ix.netcom.com> who stoppeth one in alt.atheism
In article <1184395682.402249.187190@z28g2000prd.googlegroups.com>,
J Forbes <jforbnospam@selectric.org> wrote:
<snipped crossposting so you probably won't even see it>
BTR1701 wrote:
So why is it a violation of the Constitution to have a moment of silence
in which no specific type of prayer is even mentioned, let alone
endorsed, but it's legally acceptable to set aside special time during
the school day for Muslim kids to pray?
The typical Christian school prayer problem is that they expect ALL
students to participate. this looks like a different situation.
No, many Christian school prayer proposals have included the ability for
any non-Christian kids to be excused and not participate (just like in
this case where the non-Muslims don't participate), yet they were found
to be unconstitutional.
That's because they were organzied and led by state employees. That,
sir, is establishment.
Who is organizing and facilitating these Muslim prayer times, if not the
school employees? I hardly think it's the kids themselves that carved
out the time during the school day and put these measures in place.
The students requested it as an accommodation of their Free Exercise
right. In the Christian-prayer cases, the schools provided prayer time
to endorse religion.
Josh Rosenbluth
.
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| User: "BTR1701" |
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| Title: Re: San Diego: Prayer in school is okay, so long as it's Muslim |
14 Jul 2007 09:10:17 PM |
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|
In article <gLWdnfejz4lGzgTbnZ2dnUVZ_oDinZ2d@comcast.com>,
Josh Rosenbluth <jrosenbluth@gotcha.comcast.net> wrote:
BTR1701 wrote:
In article <nbrh93tpcqa0k9rinpvmah8r9l875iqj5o@4ax.com>,
Douglas Berry <penguin_boy@mindOBVIOUSspring.com> wrote:
On Sat, 14 Jul 2007 10:01:39 -0400 there was an Ancient BTR1701
<btr1702@ix.netcom.com> who stoppeth one in alt.atheism
In article <1184395682.402249.187190@z28g2000prd.googlegroups.com>,
J Forbes <jforbnospam@selectric.org> wrote:
<snipped crossposting so you probably won't even see it>
BTR1701 wrote:
So why is it a violation of the Constitution to have a moment of silence
in which no specific type of prayer is even mentioned, let alone
endorsed, but it's legally acceptable to set aside special time during
the school day for Muslim kids to pray?
The typical Christian school prayer problem is that they expect ALL
students to participate. this looks like a different situation.
No, many Christian school prayer proposals have included the ability for
any non-Christian kids to be excused and not participate (just like in
this case where the non-Muslims don't participate), yet they were found
to be unconstitutional.
That's because they were organzied and led by state employees. That,
sir, is establishment.
Who is organizing and facilitating these Muslim prayer times, if not the
school employees? I hardly think it's the kids themselves that carved
out the time during the school day and put these measures in place.
The students requested it as an accommodation of their Free Exercise
right. In the Christian-prayer cases, the schools provided prayer time
to endorse religion.
So it's your position that if the parents had just come to the school
administrators and said, "Hey, could you give our kids 10 minutes every
day to pray?" then there'd be no constitutional issue?
.
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| User: "Fester" |
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| Title: Re: San Diego: Prayer in school is okay, so long as it's Muslim |
15 Jul 2007 05:29:10 AM |
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"BTR1701" <btr1702@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message
news:btr1702-4DE208.22101614072007@news.giganews.com...
In article <gLWdnfejz4lGzgTbnZ2dnUVZ_oDinZ2d@comcast.com>,
Josh Rosenbluth <jrosenbluth@gotcha.comcast.net> wrote:
BTR1701 wrote:
In article <nbrh93tpcqa0k9rinpvmah8r9l875iqj5o@4ax.com>,
Douglas Berry <penguin_boy@mindOBVIOUSspring.com> wrote:
On Sat, 14 Jul 2007 10:01:39 -0400 there was an Ancient BTR1701
<btr1702@ix.netcom.com> who stoppeth one in alt.atheism
In article <1184395682.402249.187190@z28g2000prd.googlegroups.com>,
J Forbes <jforbnospam@selectric.org> wrote:
<snipped crossposting so you probably won't even see it>
BTR1701 wrote:
So why is it a violation of the Constitution to have a moment of
silence
in which no specific type of prayer is even mentioned, let alone
endorsed, but it's legally acceptable to set aside special time
during
the school day for Muslim kids to pray?
The typical Christian school prayer problem is that they expect ALL
students to participate. this looks like a different situation.
No, many Christian school prayer proposals have included the ability
for
any non-Christian kids to be excused and not participate (just like in
this case where the non-Muslims don't participate), yet they were
found
to be unconstitutional.
That's because they were organzied and led by state employees. That,
sir, is establishment.
Who is organizing and facilitating these Muslim prayer times, if not
the
school employees? I hardly think it's the kids themselves that carved
out the time during the school day and put these measures in place.
The students requested it as an accommodation of their Free Exercise
right. In the Christian-prayer cases, the schools provided prayer time
to endorse religion.
So it's your position that if the parents had just come to the school
administrators and said, "Hey, could you give our kids 10 minutes every
day to pray?" then there'd be no constitutional issue?
When Christian kids wanted to arrange for *after hours* bible study clubs,
they have been consistently denied use of classrooms. Let alone being
permitted time during the school day to practice their religion. The ACLU
didn't have much sympathy for their claim to Free Exercise.
.
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| User: "Josh Rosenbluth" |
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| Title: Re: San Diego: Prayer in school is okay, so long as it's Muslim |
14 Jul 2007 09:36:15 PM |
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|
BTR1701 wrote:
In article <gLWdnfejz4lGzgTbnZ2dnUVZ_oDinZ2d@comcast.com>,
Josh Rosenbluth <jrosenbluth@gotcha.comcast.net> wrote:
BTR1701 wrote:
In article <nbrh93tpcqa0k9rinpvmah8r9l875iqj5o@4ax.com>,
Douglas Berry <penguin_boy@mindOBVIOUSspring.com> wrote:
On Sat, 14 Jul 2007 10:01:39 -0400 there was an Ancient BTR1701
<btr1702@ix.netcom.com> who stoppeth one in alt.atheism
In article <1184395682.402249.187190@z28g2000prd.googlegroups.com>,
J Forbes <jforbnospam@selectric.org> wrote:
<snipped crossposting so you probably won't even see it>
BTR1701 wrote:
So why is it a violation of the Constitution to have a moment of silence
in which no specific type of prayer is even mentioned, let alone
endorsed, but it's legally acceptable to set aside special time during
the school day for Muslim kids to pray?
The typical Christian school prayer problem is that they expect ALL
students to participate. this looks like a different situation.
No, many Christian school prayer proposals have included the ability for
any non-Christian kids to be excused and not participate (just like in
this case where the non-Muslims don't participate), yet they were found
to be unconstitutional.
That's because they were organzied and led by state employees. That,
sir, is establishment.
Who is organizing and facilitating these Muslim prayer times, if not the
school employees? I hardly think it's the kids themselves that carved
out the time during the school day and put these measures in place.
The students requested it as an accommodation of their Free Exercise
right. In the Christian-prayer cases, the schools provided prayer time
to endorse religion.
So it's your position that if the parents had just come to the school
administrators and said, "Hey, could you give our kids 10 minutes every
day to pray?" then there'd be no constitutional issue?
If the school responded with a period of silence, meditation, prayer or
otherwise, without encouraging prayer (just like they did in the San
Diego case), there would be no constitutional issue.
Josh Rosenbluth
.
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| User: "BTR1701" |
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| Title: Re: San Diego: Prayer in school is okay, so long as it's Muslim |
15 Jul 2007 09:18:17 AM |
|
|
In article <B9GdnZoqucyQFQTbnZ2dnUVZ_h7inZ2d@comcast.com>,
Josh Rosenbluth <jrosenbluth@gotcha.comcast.net> wrote:
BTR1701 wrote:
In article <gLWdnfejz4lGzgTbnZ2dnUVZ_oDinZ2d@comcast.com>,
Josh Rosenbluth <jrosenbluth@gotcha.comcast.net> wrote:
BTR1701 wrote:
In article <nbrh93tpcqa0k9rinpvmah8r9l875iqj5o@4ax.com>,
Douglas Berry <penguin_boy@mindOBVIOUSspring.com> wrote:
On Sat, 14 Jul 2007 10:01:39 -0400 there was an Ancient BTR1701
<btr1702@ix.netcom.com> who stoppeth one in alt.atheism
In article <1184395682.402249.187190@z28g2000prd.googlegroups.com>,
J Forbes <jforbnospam@selectric.org> wrote:
<snipped crossposting so you probably won't even see it>
BTR1701 wrote:
So why is it a violation of the Constitution to have a moment of
silence
in which no specific type of prayer is even mentioned, let alone
endorsed, but it's legally acceptable to set aside special time during
the school day for Muslim kids to pray?
The typical Christian school prayer problem is that they expect ALL
students to participate. this looks like a different situation.
No, many Christian school prayer proposals have included the ability for
any non-Christian kids to be excused and not participate (just like in
this case where the non-Muslims don't participate), yet they were found
to be unconstitutional.
That's because they were organzied and led by state employees. That,
sir, is establishment.
Who is organizing and facilitating these Muslim prayer times, if not the
school employees? I hardly think it's the kids themselves that carved
out the time during the school day and put these measures in place.
The students requested it as an accommodation of their Free Exercise
right. In the Christian-prayer cases, the schools provided prayer time
to endorse religion.
So it's your position that if the parents had just come to the school
administrators and said, "Hey, could you give our kids 10 minutes every
day to pray?" then there'd be no constitutional issue?
If the school responded with a period of silence, meditation, prayer or
otherwise, without encouraging prayer (just like they did in the San
Diego case), there would be no constitutional issue.
Wow, if only all those folks had known that over the last 50 years...
I can't imagine why that's never been tried.
.
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| User: "Josh Rosenbluth" |
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| Title: Re: San Diego: Prayer in school is okay, so long as it's Muslim |
15 Jul 2007 10:07:33 AM |
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|
BTR1701 wrote:
In article <B9GdnZoqucyQFQTbnZ2dnUVZ_h7inZ2d@comcast.com>,
Josh Rosenbluth <jrosenbluth@gotcha.comcast.net> wrote:
BTR1701 wrote:
In article <gLWdnfejz4lGzgTbnZ2dnUVZ_oDinZ2d@comcast.com>,
Josh Rosenbluth <jrosenbluth@gotcha.comcast.net> wrote:
BTR1701 wrote:
In article <nbrh93tpcqa0k9rinpvmah8r9l875iqj5o@4ax.com>,
Douglas Berry <penguin_boy@mindOBVIOUSspring.com> wrote:
On Sat, 14 Jul 2007 10:01:39 -0400 there was an Ancient BTR1701
<btr1702@ix.netcom.com> who stoppeth one in alt.atheism
In article <1184395682.402249.187190@z28g2000prd.googlegroups.com>,
J Forbes <jforbnospam@selectric.org> wrote:
<snipped crossposting so you probably won't even see it>
BTR1701 wrote:
So why is it a violation of the Constitution to have a moment of
silence
in which no specific type of prayer is even mentioned, let alone
endorsed, but it's legally acceptable to set aside special time during
the school day for Muslim kids to pray?
The typical Christian school prayer problem is that they expect ALL
students to participate. this looks like a different situation.
No, many Christian school prayer proposals have included the ability for
any non-Christian kids to be excused and not participate (just like in
this case where the non-Muslims don't participate), yet they were found
to be unconstitutional.
That's because they were organzied and led by state employees. That,
sir, is establishment.
Who is organizing and facilitating these Muslim prayer times, if not the
school employees? I hardly think it's the kids themselves that carved
out the time during the school day and put these measures in place.
The students requested it as an accommodation of their Free Exercise
right. In the Christian-prayer cases, the schools provided prayer time
to endorse religion.
So it's your position that if the parents had just come to the school
administrators and said, "Hey, could you give our kids 10 minutes every
day to pray?" then there'd be no constitutional issue?
If the school responded with a period of silence, meditation, prayer or
otherwise, without encouraging prayer (just like they did in the San
Diego case), there would be no constitutional issue.
Wow, if only all those folks had known that over the last 50 years...
I can't imagine why that's never been tried.
It was tried in Alabama over 20 years ago. In a landmark case (Wallace
v. Jaffree) SCOTUS ruled against the specific Alabama law, but only
because they found the law was a pre-text for encouraging Christian
prayer. The Court also set the standard that moments of silence which
do not encourage prayer are OK.
Josh Rosenbluth
.
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| User: "Mark K. Bilbo" |
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| Title: Re: San Diego: Prayer in school is okay, so long as it's Muslim |
15 Jul 2007 08:38:19 AM |
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On Sat, 14 Jul 2007 22:10:17 -0400, BTR1701 wrote:
In article <gLWdnfejz4lGzgTbnZ2dnUVZ_oDinZ2d@comcast.com>,
Josh Rosenbluth <jrosenbluth@gotcha.comcast.net> wrote:
BTR1701 wrote:
In article <nbrh93tpcqa0k9rinpvmah8r9l875iqj5o@4ax.com>,
Douglas Berry <penguin_boy@mindOBVIOUSspring.com> wrote:
On Sat, 14 Jul 2007 10:01:39 -0400 there was an Ancient BTR1701
<btr1702@ix.netcom.com> who stoppeth one in alt.atheism
In article <1184395682.402249.187190@z28g2000prd.googlegroups.com>,
J Forbes <jforbnospam@selectric.org> wrote:
<snipped crossposting so you probably won't even see it>
BTR1701 wrote:
So why is it a violation of the Constitution to have a moment of
silence in which no specific type of prayer is even mentioned, let
alone endorsed, but it's legally acceptable to set aside special
time during the school day for Muslim kids to pray?
The typical Christian school prayer problem is that they expect ALL
students to participate. this looks like a different situation.
No, many Christian school prayer proposals have included the ability
for any non-Christian kids to be excused and not participate (just
like in this case where the non-Muslims don't participate), yet they
were found to be unconstitutional.
That's because they were organzied and led by state employees. That,
sir, is establishment.
Who is organizing and facilitating these Muslim prayer times, if not
the school employees? I hardly think it's the kids themselves that
carved out the time during the school day and put these measures in
place.
The students requested it as an accommodation of their Free Exercise
right. In the Christian-prayer cases, the schools provided prayer time
to endorse religion.
So it's your position that if the parents had just come to the school
administrators and said, "Hey, could you give our kids 10 minutes every
day to pray?" then there'd be no constitutional issue?
There ALREADY is no Constitutional issue.
Why have you swallowed religious right propaganda? Christians pray in
schools all the time all over the country.
--
Mark K. Bilbo a.a. #1423
EAC Department of Linguistic Subversion
------------------------------------------------------------
"Come to think of it, there are already a million monkeys
on a million typewriters, and the Usenet is NOTHING
like Shakespeare!" - Blair Houghton
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| User: "Davej" |
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| Title: Re: San Diego: Prayer in school is okay, so long as it's Muslim |
16 Jul 2007 09:37:31 AM |
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On Jul 14, 9:01 am, BTR1701 <btr1...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
J Forbes <jforbnos...@selectric.org> wrote:
BTR1701 wrote:
So why is it a violation of the Constitution to have a moment of silence
in which no specific type of prayer is even mentioned, let alone
endorsed, but it's legally acceptable to set aside special time during
the school day for Muslim kids to pray?
The typical Christian school prayer problem is that they expect ALL
students to participate. this looks like a different situation.
No, many Christian school prayer proposals have included the ability for
any non-Christian kids to be excused and not participate (just like in
this case where the non-Muslims don't participate), yet they were found
to be unconstitutional.
That is a situation where prayer is obviously being endorsed. Why not
excuse the Christians to go pray in the hallway? I would think a
scheduled recess or free period would be the best option for this
school. Perhaps a separate room could be provided if these prayers
must be said aloud.
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| User: "Christopher A.Lee" |
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| Title: Re: San Diego: Prayer in school is okay, so long as it's Muslim |
16 Jul 2007 10:05:19 AM |
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On Mon, 16 Jul 2007 07:37:31 -0700, Davej <galt_57@hotmail.com> wrote:
On Jul 14, 9:01 am, BTR1701 <btr1...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
J Forbes <jforbnos...@selectric.org> wrote:
BTR1701 wrote:
So why is it a violation of the Constitution to have a moment of silence
in which no specific type of prayer is even mentioned, let alone
endorsed, but it's legally acceptable to set aside special time during
the school day for Muslim kids to pray?
The typical Christian school prayer problem is that they expect ALL
students to participate. this looks like a different situation.
No, many Christian school prayer proposals have included the ability for
any non-Christian kids to be excused and not participate (just like in
this case where the non-Muslims don't participate), yet they were found
to be unconstitutional.
That is a situation where prayer is obviously being endorsed. Why not
excuse the Christians to go pray in the hallway? I would think a
scheduled recess or free period would be the best option for this
school. Perhaps a separate room could be provided if these prayers
must be said aloud.
They would have to provide equivalent facilities for members of all
the other religions, and even allow a room for atheists to get
together as atheists.
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| User: "Christopher A.Lee" |
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| Title: Re: San Diego: Prayer in school is okay, so long as it's Muslim |
14 Jul 2007 09:11:10 AM |
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On Sat, 14 Jul 2007 10:01:39 -0400, BTR1701 <btr1702@ix.netcom.com>
wrote:
In article <1184395682.402249.187190@z28g2000prd.googlegroups.com>,
J Forbes <jforbnospam@selectric.org> wrote:
<snipped crossposting so you probably won't even see it>
BTR1701 wrote:
So why is it a violation of the Constitution to have a moment of silence
in which no specific type of prayer is even mentioned, let alone
endorsed, but it's legally acceptable to set aside special time during
the school day for Muslim kids to pray?
The typical Christian school prayer problem is that they expect ALL
students to participate. this looks like a different situation.
No, many Christian school prayer proposals have included the ability for
any non-Christian kids to be excused and not participate (just like in
this case where the non-Muslims don't participate), yet they were found
to be unconstitutional.
Because it is government establishment of religion.
Kids shouldn't need to be "excused" from somebody else's religion. It
both implies that they're doing something wrong but are excused and it
singles them out.
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: San Diego: Prayer in school is okay, so long as it's Muslim |
15 Jul 2007 01:00:17 PM |
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Christopher A.Lee suggested:
Kids shouldn't need to be "excused" from somebody else's
religion. It both implies that they're doing something wrong but
are excused and it singles them out.
I agree completely. I suggest the Islamic demand to be excused for
prayer at a particular time of day should be handled thusly: Each
teacher give a deep inscrutable lecture immediately preceeding the
prayer time. Then announce "for the next N minutes I'm going to
accept questions about that lecture, then I'll have a pop quiz.
Anyone who wishes to be excused from the question+answer session
may get up and leave at this time." (Islamic students leave.)
Question+answer session elightens all the non-excused students, so
they all understand the lecture. (Islamic students return.) Pop
quiz happens. Students who paid attention during the
question+answer session get good grades on the quiz. Islamic
students who excused themselves, are unable to get good grades on
the quiz. That was their choice. These pop quizzes are one half of
the total grade. (Homework is 1/4 and final exam is 1/4.)
End-of-year published statistics show a strong correlation between
religious beliefs and school grades, specifically that Islamic
students flunk.
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| User: "BTR1701" |
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| Title: Re: San Diego: Prayer in school is okay, so long as it's Muslim |
14 Jul 2007 05:01:45 PM |
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In article <p7mh9393itdh958k600hcqn1nrvn7iin8o@4ax.com>,
Christopher A.Lee <calee@optonline.net> wrote:
On Sat, 14 Jul 2007 10:01:39 -0400, BTR1701 <btr1702@ix.netcom.com>
wrote:
In article <1184395682.402249.187190@z28g2000prd.googlegroups.com>,
J Forbes <jforbnospam@selectric.org> wrote:
<snipped crossposting so you probably won't even see it>
BTR1701 wrote:
So why is it a violation of the Constitution to have a moment of silence
in which no specific type of prayer is even mentioned, let alone
endorsed, but it's legally acceptable to set aside special time during
the school day for Muslim kids to pray?
The typical Christian school prayer problem is that they expect ALL
students to participate. this looks like a different situation.
No, many Christian school prayer proposals have included the ability for
any non-Christian kids to be excused and not participate (just like in
this case where the non-Muslims don't participate), yet they were found
to be unconstitutional.
Because it is government establishment of religion.
Kids shouldn't need to be "excused" from somebody else's religion.
Precisely. So the Christian and Jewish and atheist and Wiccan kids in
San Diego shouldn't have to be excused from the Muslim prayer time,
either.
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| User: "J Forbes" |
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| Title: Re: San Diego: Prayer in school is okay, so long as it's Muslim |
14 Jul 2007 05:26:57 PM |
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BTR1701 wrote:
In article <p7mh9393itdh958k600hcqn1nrvn7iin8o@4ax.com>,
Christopher A.Lee <calee@optonline.net> wrote:
On Sat, 14 Jul 2007 10:01:39 -0400, BTR1701 <btr1702@ix.netcom.com>
wrote:
In article <1184395682.402249.187190@z28g2000prd.googlegroups.com>,
J Forbes <jforbnospam@selectric.org> wrote:
<snipped crossposting so you probably won't even see it>
BTR1701 wrote:
So why is it a violation of the Constitution to have a moment of silence
in which no specific type of prayer is even mentioned, let alone
endorsed, but it's legally acceptable to set aside special time during
the school day for Muslim kids to pray?
The typical Christian school prayer problem is that they expect ALL
students to participate. this looks like a different situation.
No, many Christian school prayer proposals have included the ability for
any non-Christian kids to be excused and not participate (just like in
this case where the non-Muslims don't participate), yet they were found
to be unconstitutional.
Because it is government establishment of religion.
Kids shouldn't need to be "excused" from somebody else's religion.
Precisely. So the Christian and Jewish and atheist and Wiccan kids in
San Diego shouldn't have to be excused from the Muslim prayer time,
either.
That probably depends on the facts of the case.
Are the Muslims being excused from classes to attend prayer time? or
is the whole school going to prayer time, and the majority group you
listed being excused from it?
Jim
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| User: "Douglas Berry" |
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| Title: Re: San Diego: Prayer in school is okay, so long as it's Muslim |
14 Jul 2007 06:12:21 PM |
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On Sat, 14 Jul 2007 15:26:57 -0700 there was an Ancient J Forbes
<jforbnospam@selectric.org> who stoppeth one in alt.atheism
That probably depends on the facts of the case.
Are the Muslims being excused from classes to attend prayer time? or
is the whole school going to prayer time, and the majority group you
listed being excused from it?
http://tinyurl.com/3y84mk
Background: The U.S. Department of Education's guidelines say students
can pray at public schools during school hours by themselves or with
fellow students. However, Šteachers and other public school officials
may not lead their classes in prayer, devotional readings from the
Bible or other religious activities.
What's happening: A substitute teacher claimed that Carver Elementary
School in San Diego was indoctrinating students into Islam, and that a
teacher's aide led Muslim children in prayer. An investigation failed
to substantiate the claims, but the allegations have thrust Carver
into a nationwide debate over prayer in schools.
The future: Carver, which has set aside a 15-minute break to allow
time for students to pray, is considering alternative prayer
accommodations. Religious and civil rights groups are monitoring
developments.
That's from the Overview box. The main story states that anyone who
choses not to take part in the prayers (the school absorbed over a 100
Somali Muslims kids from a defunct charter school) can read or write
during the fifteen minute break. I imagine Christian students could
spend the time in quiet prayer.
--
Douglas Berry Do the OBVIOUS thing to send e-mail
Atheist #2147, Atheist Vet #5
Jason Gastrich is praying for me on 8 January 2011
"The most beautiful thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the
source of all true art and all science. He to whom this emotion is a
stranger, who can no longer pause to wonder and stand rapt in awe, is as
good as dead: his eyes are closed." - Albert Einstein
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| User: "Mark K. Bilbo" |
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| Title: Re: San Diego: Prayer in school is okay, so long as it's Muslim |
15 Jul 2007 08:35:44 AM |
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On Sat, 14 Jul 2007 23:12:21 +0000, Douglas Berry wrote:
What's happening: A substitute teacher claimed that Carver Elementary
School in San Diego was indoctrinating students into Islam, and that a
teacher's aide led Muslim children in prayer. An investigation failed to
substantiate the claims, but the allegations have thrust Carver into a
nationwide debate over prayer in schools.
San Diego eh? Gastrich land.
This is not the first time the religious reich has shrieked "Muslim
indoctrination" about CA schools. They also, a while back, had a hissy
fit over an Arab unit in the 7th grade world history curriculum.
Apparently, even mentioning that Arabs exist (other than to be bombed for
Jesus) is "indoctrination".
It's Dominionist tactics. They've quite openly stated they intend for all
non-Christian religions to be restricted to the home. The public sphere
will be owned by Christianity. Period.
Right now, they see an "opening" in the general fear of Arabs because of
the terrorist activities of some few. They definitely want to crack the
door open by creating the perception that a "dangerous religion" is
invading the schools and we have to stop it before it's too late. Once
they get us on that slippery slope, they'll be free to move the lines of
what's "dangerous".
--
Mark K. Bilbo a.a. #1423
EAC Department of Linguistic Subversion
------------------------------------------------------------
"What the hell is an aluminum Falcon?"
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| User: "Mark K. Bilbo" |
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| Title: Re: San Diego: Prayer in school is okay, so long as it's Muslim |
15 Jul 2007 08:28:05 AM |
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On Sat, 14 Jul 2007 15:26:57 -0700, J Forbes wrote:
BTR1701 wrote:
In article <p7mh9393itdh958k600hcqn1nrvn7iin8o@4ax.com>,
Christopher A.Lee <calee@optonline.net> wrote:
On Sat, 14 Jul 2007 10:01:39 -0400, BTR1701 <btr1702@ix.netcom.com>
wrote:
In article <1184395682.402249.187190@z28g2000prd.googlegroups.com>,
J Forbes <jforbnospam@selectric.org> wrote:
<snipped crossposting so you probably won't even see it>
BTR1701 wrote:
So why is it a violation of the Constitution to have a moment of
silence in which no specific type of prayer is even mentioned,
let alone endorsed, but it's legally acceptable to set aside
special time during the school day for Muslim kids to pray?
The typical Christian school prayer problem is that they expect
ALL students to participate. this looks like a different
situation.
No, many Christian school prayer proposals have included the ability
for any non-Christian kids to be excused and not participate (just
like in this case where the non-Muslims don't participate), yet they
were found to be unconstitutional.
Because it is government establishment of religion.
Kids shouldn't need to be "excused" from somebody else's religion.
Precisely. So the Christian and Jewish and atheist and Wiccan kids in
San Diego shouldn't have to be excused from the Muslim prayer time,
either.
That probably depends on the facts of the case.
Are the Muslims being excused from classes to attend prayer time? or is
the whole school going to prayer time, and the majority group you listed
being excused from it?
In the case he's so worked up about, the Muslims are excused for all of
fifteen minutes to go do their prayers.
--
Mark K. Bilbo a.a. #1423
EAC Department of Linguistic Subversion
------------------------------------------------------------
"The whole aim of practical politics is to keep the populace
alarmed (and hence clamorous to be led to safety) by menacing
it with an endless series of hobgoblins, all of them imaginary."
- H. L. Mencken
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| User: "Mark K. Bilbo" |
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| Title: Re: San Diego: Prayer in school is okay, so long as it's Muslim |
15 Jul 2007 08:27:25 AM |
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On Sat, 14 Jul 2007 18:01:45 -0400, BTR1701 wrote:
In article <p7mh9393itdh958k600hcqn1nrvn7iin8o@4ax.com>,
Christopher A.Lee <calee@optonline.net> wrote:
On Sat, 14 Jul 2007 10:01:39 -0400, BTR1701 <btr1702@ix.netcom.com>
wrote:
In article <1184395682.402249.187190@z28g2000prd.googlegroups.com>,
J Forbes <jforbnospam@selectric.org> wrote:
<snipped crossposting so you probably won't even see it>
BTR1701 wrote:
So why is it a violation of the Constitution to have a moment of
silence in which no specific type of prayer is even mentioned, let
alone endorsed, but it's legally acceptable to set aside special
time during the school day for Muslim kids to pray?
The typical Christian school prayer problem is that they expect ALL
students to participate. this looks like a different situation.
No, many Christian school prayer proposals have included the ability
for any non-Christian kids to be excused and not participate (just
like in this case where the non-Muslims don't participate), yet they
were found to be unconstitutional.
Because it is government establishment of religion.
Kids shouldn't need to be "excused" from somebody else's religion.
Precisely. So the Christian and Jewish and atheist and Wiccan kids in
San Diego shouldn't have to be excused from the Muslim prayer time,
either.
Sigh. The MUSLIMS are the ones being excused in the case you've hiked
your skirt and run about screaming...
--
Mark K. Bilbo a.a. #1423
EAC Department of Linguistic Subversion
------------------------------------------------------------
"You know, I'd get it if people were just looking for a
way to fill the holes. But they want the holes. They wanna
live in the holes. And they go nuts when someone else
pours dirt in their holes.
"Climb out of your holes people!"
- Dr. House, on faith
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| User: "Mark K. Bilbo" |
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| Title: Re: San Diego: Prayer in school is okay, so long as it's Muslim |
15 Jul 2007 08:09:26 AM |
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On Sat, 14 Jul 2007 10:01:39 -0400, BTR1701 wrote:
In article <1184395682.402249.187190@z28g2000prd.googlegroups.com>,
J Forbes <jforbnospam@selectric.org> wrote:
<snipped crossposting so you probably won't even see it>
BTR1701 wrote:
So why is it a violation of the Constitution to have a moment of
silence in which no specific type of prayer is even mentioned, let
alone endorsed, but it's legally acceptable to set aside special time
during the school day for Muslim kids to pray?
The typical Christian school prayer problem is that they expect ALL
students to participate. this looks like a different situation.
No, many Christian school prayer proposals have included the ability for
any non-Christian kids to be excused and not participate (just like in
this case where the non-Muslims don't participate), yet they were found
to be unconstitutional.
No, they were state sanctioned and imposed on everyone. Allowing kids to
leave a class to perform some religious rite is not the same thing as
having the school schedule the rite for everybody in the school.
--
Mark K. Bilbo a.a. #1423
EAC Department of Linguistic Subversion
------------------------------------------------------------
"The whole aim of practical politics is to keep the populace
alarmed (and hence clamorous to be led to safety) by menacing
it with an endless series of hobgoblins, all of them imaginary."
- H. L. Mencken
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| User: "Mark K. Bilbo" |
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| Title: Re: San Diego: Prayer in school is okay, so long as it's Muslim |
14 Jul 2007 08:33:54 AM |
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On Fri, 13 Jul 2007 23:48:02 -0700, J Forbes wrote:
<snipped crossposting so you probably won't even see it>
BTR1701 wrote:
So why is it a violation of the Constitution to have a moment of
silence in which no specific type of prayer is even mentioned, let
alone endorsed, but it's legally acceptable to set aside special time
during the school day for Muslim kids to pray?
The typical Christian school prayer problem is that they expect ALL
students to participate. this looks like a different situation.
Yeah, accomodating beliefs is not the same thing as institutionalizing
them...
--
Mark K. Bilbo a.a. #1423
EAC Department of Linguistic Subversion
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"What the hell is an aluminum Falcon?"
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| User: "Wilson" |
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| Title: Re: San Diego: Prayer in school is okay, so long as it's Muslim |
13 Jul 2007 11:04:18 PM |
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"BTR1701" <btr1702@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message
news:btr1702-02B061.22305013072007@news.giganews.com...
So why is it a violation of the Constitution to have a moment of silence
in which no specific type of prayer is even mentioned, let alone
endorsed, but it's legally acceptable to set aside special time during
the school day for Muslim kids to pray? And why is okay to set aside
this time for Muslims but when Christians and Jews ask for the same
privilege for their kids, they're denied?
And apparently the University of Michigan is using funds paid for by
student fees to install Muslim prayer foot-washing equipment on campus.
I don't know if they're paying for Christian and/or Jewish worship
facilities or not but this would also seem to be a constitutional issue.
So far, the ACLU's position-- the same organization that swoops in the
moment anyone uses the word "Christmas" in a public school-- is that
this is perfectly reasonable accommodation and they have no problem with
it.
And of course what gets lost in the whole ruckus is the atheists who
have a right not to be bothered by any of this superstitious nonsense.
http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/metro/20070702-9999-1n2prayer.html
People who waste their time praying are mentally challenged. Let them all
pray on their own time, not on my tax dollar financed time.
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| User: "GreyHairedFart throwaway1833.hotmail.com" |
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| Title: Re: San Diego: Prayer in school is okay, so long as it's Muslim |
14 Jul 2007 08:30:29 AM |
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"Wilson" <wilson@universal.com> wrote in
news:46984bc2$0$23434$9a6e19ea@unlimited.newshosting.com:
"BTR1701" <btr1702@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message
news:btr1702-02B061.22305013072007@news.giganews.com...
So why is it a violation of the Constitution to have a moment of
silence in which no specific type of prayer is even mentioned, let
alone endorsed, but it's legally acceptable to set aside special
time during the school day for Muslim kids to pray? And why is okay
to set aside this time for Muslims but when Christians and Jews ask
for the same privilege for their kids, they're denied?
And apparently the University of Michigan is using funds paid for
by student fees to install Muslim prayer foot-washing equipment on
campus. I don't know if they're paying for Christian and/or Jewish
worship facilities or not but this would also seem to be a
constitutional issue.
So far, the ACLU's position-- the same organization that swoops in
the moment anyone uses the word "Christmas" in a public school-- is
that this is perfectly reasonable accommodation and they have no
problem with it.
And of course what gets lost in the whole ruckus is the atheists
who have a right not to be bothered by any of this superstitious
nonsense.
http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/metro/20070702-9999-1n2prayer.htm
l
People who waste their time praying are mentally challenged. Let
them all pray on their own time, not on my tax dollar financed time.
Don't call them "mentally challenged". That's the educationese code
phrase for "Hire more special ed teachers and spend even more money".
--
Pro Life? Good, get one and stay out of mine.
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| User: "Jim_*_" |
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| Title: Re: San Diego: Prayer in school is okay, so long as it's Muslim |
14 Jul 2007 10:20:22 PM |
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Muslim prayer should nto be allowed in any place in the US except their
mosque, thats it.
Habibs, head rags, or anything else they where should nto be allowed in
public as you have no way of knowing if the muslim is hiding a bomb or
not.
In WW2 the US rounded up those of the enemies bloodline and put them in
camps. We are fighting Muslims and that should happen now.
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| User: "Crandall crandall at K U dot E D U" |
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| Title: Re: San Diego: Prayer in school is okay, so long as it's Muslim |
17 Jul 2007 01:02:43 PM |
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"Jim_*_" <ohyeah@nothere.com> wrote:
Muslim prayer should nto be allowed in any place in the US except their
mosque, thats it.
Not much of a fan of the U.S. Constitution, are you?
Any LEO who expresses this opinion should be reassigned to the property room
in the basement, and strictly supervised, at that.
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| User: "Rev. Karl E. Taylor" |
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| Title: Re: San Diego: Prayer in school is okay, so long as it's Muslim |
14 Jul 2007 11:05:54 PM |
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-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1
Jim_*_ wrote:
Muslim prayer should nto be allowed in any place in the US except their
mosque, thats it.
Christian prayer should not be allowed in any place in the US except
their churches, thats it!
Habibs, head rags, or anything else they where should nto be allowed in
public as you have no way of knowing if the muslim is hiding a bomb or
not.
Crucifixes, fish and other religious symbols worn by Christians should
be outlawed as offensive weapons and symbols of hate and murder.
In WW2 the US rounded up those of the enemies bloodline and put them in
camps. We are fighting Muslims and that should happen now.
In WW2, Hitler claimed to be doing "the lords work" and the church
supported him in this effort, even going as far as to bless the SS in
their endeavors.
See how stupid you sound when you post noise.
- --
There are none more ignorant and useless,
than they that seek answers on their knees,
with their eyes closed.
____________________________________________________________________
Rev. Karl E. Taylor http://www.secularity.com/ktayloraz
A.A #1143 http://azhotops.blogspot.com/
Apostle of Dr. Lao EAC: Virgin Conversion Unit Director
____________________________________________________________________
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| User: "Jim_*_" |
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| Title: Re: San Diego: Prayer in school is okay, so long as it's Muslim |
15 Jul 2007 08:24:55 AM |
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In article <22jom4-piu.ln1@dhcpdns2.ddsoho.com>,
"Rev. Karl E. Taylor" <ktayloraz@getnet.net> wrote:
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1
Jim_*_ wrote:
Muslim prayer should nto be allowed in any place in the US except their
mosque, thats it.
Christian prayer should not be allowed in any place in the US except
their churches, thats it!
Prayer should bve private, no matter the religion.
Habibs, head rags, or anything else they where should nto be allowed in
public as you have no way of knowing if the muslim is hiding a bomb or
not.
Crucifixes, fish and other religious symbols worn by Christians should
be outlawed as offensive weapons and symbols of hate and murder.
Except we are not at war with Christians. We are at war with Muslims. It
is not a war against religion or religious beliefs in general, just a
war with a radical portion of a a religion.
In WW2 the US rounded up those of the enemies bloodline and put them in
camps. We are fighting Muslims and that should happen now.
In WW2, Hitler claimed to be doing "the lords work" and the church
supported him in this effort, even going as far as to bless the SS in
their endeavors.
Try hearder sparky.
Now shoo, go put on your cute little dress and go away.
Whay are atheists always the bitter ones?
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| User: "Rev. Karl E. Taylor" |
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| Title: Re: San Diego: Prayer in school is okay, so long as it's Muslim |
15 Jul 2007 09:51:00 AM |
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Jim_*_ wrote:
In article <22jom4-piu.ln1@dhcpdns2.ddsoho.com>,
"Rev. Karl E. Taylor" <ktayloraz@getnet.net> wrote:
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Jim_*_ wrote:
Muslim prayer should nto be allowed in any place in the US except their
mosque, thats it.
Christian prayer should not be allowed in any place in the US except
their churches, thats it!
Prayer should bve private, no matter the religion.
Prayer is a monumental waste of time.
Habibs, head rags, or anything else they where should nto be allowed in
public as you have no way of knowing if the muslim is hiding a bomb or
not.
Crucifixes, fish and other religious symbols worn by Christians should
be outlawed as offensive weapons and symbols of hate and murder.
Except we are not at war with Christians. We are at war with Muslims. It
is not a war against religion or religious beliefs in general, just a
war with a radical portion of a a religion.
No moron, they are. Figure it out.
Typical fundy mentality, only sees the world from one side.
In WW2 the US rounded up those of the enemies bloodline and put them in
camps. We are fighting Muslims and that should happen now.
In WW2, Hitler claimed to be doing "the lords work" and the church
supported him in this effort, even going as far as to bless the SS in
their endeavors.
Try hearder sparky.
Not too damned familiar with history are you junior?
Figures.
Now shoo, go put on your cute little dress and go away.
Dress? Are you projecting now? Is there something you want little boy?
Whay are atheists always the bitter ones?
Why is it that fundies are always lying, ignorant, in your face assholes?
- --
There are none more ignorant and useless,
than they that seek answers on their knees,
with their eyes closed.
____________________________________________________________________
Rev. Karl E. Taylor http://www.secularity.com/ktayloraz
A.A #1143 http://azhotops.blogspot.com/
Apostle of Dr. Lao EAC: Virgin Conversion Unit Director
____________________________________________________________________
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