| Topic: |
Religions > Atheism |
| User: |
"Fred Goodwin, CMA" |
| Date: |
10 May 2006 11:16:51 AM |
| Object: |
Scout's admission of being Wiccan leads to turmoil |
Scout's admission of being Wiccan leads to turmoil
http://www.thetowntalk.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=2006605090308
http://tinyurl.com/klgp8
Article published May 9, 2006
By Melanie Crownover
Special to The Town Talk
ANACOCO -- The camp is going well so far. Boy Scouts have gathered from
around the area in khaki button-ups and red scarves, eager to earn
their God and Country badge.
The leader in a room of about 20 Scouts decides to break the ice by
showing how religiously diverse the gathering is.
By a showing of hands, he asks who belongs to the Baptist Church, the
Catholic Church, the Methodist Church, continuing on until two boys are
left who have not raised their hands.
One of the brothers is called out to tell the group what church he
attends. He replies, "I'm Wiccan."
Little did 12-year-old Cody Brown realize how much that answer would
affect his life.
During the past six weeks, Cody and his 15-year-old brother, Justin,
have waited with their parents to see how the controversy sparked by
Cody's answer would play out.
Within 48 hours of Cody's confession, the troop committee of Holly
Grove United Methodist Church in Anacoco was meeting to discuss the
implications.
The church sponsors the boys' chapter, Troop 71. Pastor Doug Lewellyn
was out of town at the time of the meeting.
"The number one scout law is to do your duty to God and your country,"
Troop 71 Scout Master Gene Doherty said. "They met to discuss whether
or not the boys could live up to that because of their religion."
The conclusion was that they could not.
Doherty called Army Cpt. Todd Buchheim, the boys' father and a former
Eagle Scout stationed at Fort Polk, to inform him that the boys no
longer were welcome in the troop. The Buchheims said Doherty told them
that if Cody had lied about his faith, the boys could have remained
with no problem.
"I was trying to give them a head's up so that they wouldn't come to
the next meeting and not be prepared for what was going on," Doherty
said. "They've been so supportive of our troop, and they're good
people."
Two days later, Doherty said, the committee held another meeting with
the church's pastor and decided to contact the district United
Methodist Church committee and the National Council of the Boy Scouts
before anything official was done.
Doherty, however, had already acted upon the original orders and kicked
the boys out of the troop.
"The boys had been in that troop for over a year, and it wasn't exactly
a secret," said Aileen Buchheim, the boys' mother. The boys became a
part of the troop when the family lived in Anacoco, but wanted to
continue on after they moved to Fort Polk in August 2005.
"No child should have to be told in 2006 that they can't take part in a
group because of their religion," Aileen Buchheim said.
The district church committee in Lake Charles agreed and overturned
Holly Grove's decision to oust the boys from the troop on religious
grounds.
"Our church's motto is to open our hearts, minds and doors to everyone
because we all have to come to an understanding of God on our own --
these boys should be no different," District Superintendent Doug Ezell
said. "We are just a sponsor for the troop, so if the Boy Scouts do not
have a problem with them being there, we don't."
According to the Boy Scouts, it's up to the sponsors to make that
choice.
"Boy Scouts own the program but does not control the unit," said Legare
Clement, executive director of the Boy Scouts for southwestern
Louisiana. "We partner with community organizations and churches as
sponsors to present the program, which is actually a youth outreach for
them.
"They approve leaders by our standards, but they have a right to choose
members," Clement said.
Although there are no troops or packs sponsored by Wiccan circles, the
national office informed Clement that any boy who believes there is a
God -- not just the Christian God -- can live up to the creed.
"They said that we believe in more than one God, but that depends on
the branch of Wicca, just like any other religion," Aileen Buchheim
said. "We believe in one goddess and god with different names and
aspects depending on the time of the year."
Not everyone embraced the church's decision, including some parents of
troop members who, officials said, feared that their children would be
preached to by the two boys.
The irony is that the original troop was founded on parallel
circumstances.
Doherty said Troop 71 began as a half-Baptist/half-Pentecostal troop
led by a Jewish man.
Although the children had no problems with one another, the parents
wanted the troop separated because of religious beliefs, Doherty said.
When Doherty needed a charter for his Cub Scout troop, the troop leader
transferred the charter and ferried his children to Anacoco from Pitkin
for years to avoid the split.
"I've seen what difference of belief can do to a troop even if we
aren't here to do doctrine," Doherty said. "It's not right or fair, but
it's there. The world just isn't ready for diversity when it comes to
their kids. People fear what they don't understand."
After almost a month of noncommittal answers on the boys' status,
Aileen Buchheim said she received an apologetic call from Lewellyn to
invite the boys to the next meeting, which occurred April 25.
Lewellyn attended the scout meeting to talk to the parents and Scouts
about why they all were welcome and how doctrine was not a Boy Scout
topic.
Numbers were sparse, and two mothers allegedly came back to pick their
boys up 10 minutes after Capt. Buchheim brought in his sons.
"This (the controversy) has weakened the group," Doherty said. "I will
probably lose some parent support and some good boys over this no
matter how it turns out."
This past week, he officially lost two.
Cody and Justin decided not to remain with Troop 71 after the ordeal.
"This was devastating," Aileen Buchheim said. "My husband puts on a
uniform to fight for ours and other nations' rights every day, and yet
this happens in our own backyard. We just wanted to make sure it was
straightened out so no one has to go through this again."
In the meantime, Aileen Buchheim has filed paperwork to charter a local
chapter of Spiral Scouts, a Wiccan-based scouting organization that
accepts members of any background, belief or gender between the ages of
3 and 18.
About 15 children are already on the sign-up list if the charter is
approved, she said.
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: Scout's admission of being Wiccan leads to turmoil |
11 May 2006 04:47:27 AM |
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Fred Goodwin, CMA wrote:
... The Buchheims said Doherty told them
that if Cody had lied about his faith, the boys could have remained
with no problem.
Because dishonesty is acceptable but diversity is not?
Roy
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| User: "Chris Johnson" |
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| Title: Re: Scout's admission of being Wiccan leads to turmoil |
10 May 2006 11:35:45 AM |
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Fred Goodwin, CMA wrote:
Scout's admission of being Wiccan leads to turmoil
<snip>
Although there are no troops or packs sponsored by Wiccan circles, the
national office informed Clement that any boy who believes there is a
God -- not just the Christian God -- can live up to the creed.
So are atheists not welcome then? Why would a god belief be a
requirement?
<snip>
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| User: "Samuel W. Heywood" |
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| Title: Re: Scout's admission of being Wiccan leads to turmoil |
10 May 2006 12:19:13 PM |
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On Wed, 10 May 2006, Chris Johnson wrote:
<snip>
So are atheists not welcome then? Why would a god belief be a
requirement?
Because the founder of the Boy Scout movement, Robert Baden-Powell
wrote in the first scouting handbook in 1908 these words:
"No man is much good unless he believes in God and obeys His Laws.
So every Scout should have a religion".
The tradition of discriminating against atheists was established
by their beloved founder.
Sam Heywood
-- Message handled by Pine, Version 4.62
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| User: "kathryn" |
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| Title: Re: Scout's admission of being Wiccan leads to turmoil |
10 May 2006 01:05:37 PM |
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"Samuel W. Heywood" <sheywood@MyRealBox.com> wrote in message
news:Pine.NEB.4.62.0605101301460.17694@otaku.freeshell.org...
On Wed, 10 May 2006, Chris Johnson wrote:
<snip>
So are atheists not welcome then? Why would a god belief be a
requirement?
Because the founder of the Boy Scout movement, Robert Baden-Powell
wrote in the first scouting handbook in 1908 these words:
Wasn't he a paedophile?
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| User: "Jani" |
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| Title: Re: Scout's admission of being Wiccan leads to turmoil |
10 May 2006 06:02:16 PM |
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"kathryn" <nospam@here.com> wrote in message
news:zuKdnfU2GI8ctv_ZRVnysA@bt.com...
"Samuel W. Heywood" <sheywood@MyRealBox.com> wrote in message
news:Pine.NEB.4.62.0605101301460.17694@otaku.freeshell.org...
On Wed, 10 May 2006, Chris Johnson wrote:
<snip>
So are atheists not welcome then? Why would a god belief be a
requirement?
Because the founder of the Boy Scout movement, Robert Baden-Powell
wrote in the first scouting handbook in 1908 these words:
Wasn't he a paedophile?
I think that idea came about through people misunderstanding the book title,
"Scouting for Boys" ;)
Jani
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| User: "root" |
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| Title: Re: Scout's admission of being Wiccan leads to turmoil |
11 May 2006 02:22:34 PM |
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Jani wrote:
"kathryn" <nospam@here.com> wrote in message
news:zuKdnfU2GI8ctv_ZRVnysA@bt.com...
"Samuel W. Heywood" <sheywood@MyRealBox.com> wrote in message
news:Pine.NEB.4.62.0605101301460.17694@otaku.freeshell.org...
On Wed, 10 May 2006, Chris Johnson wrote:
<snip>
So are atheists not welcome then? Why would a god belief be a
requirement?
Because the founder of the Boy Scout movement, Robert Baden-Powell
wrote in the first scouting handbook in 1908 these words:
Wasn't he a paedophile?
I think that idea came about through people misunderstanding the book title,
"Scouting for Boys" ;)
"As camp as a row of pink tents" is the phrase that comes tom mind here
..... ;)
golwg
Matthew
Jani
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| User: "Michael Gray" |
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| Title: Re: Scout's admission of being Wiccan leads to turmoil |
11 May 2006 02:43:15 AM |
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On Thu, 11 May 2006 00:02:16 +0100, "Jani" <jani@dsl.pipex.com> wrote:
- Refer: <bIWdnSdg-JZl7f_ZRVnyuA@pipex.net>
"kathryn" <nospam@here.com> wrote in message
news:zuKdnfU2GI8ctv_ZRVnysA@bt.com...
"Samuel W. Heywood" <sheywood@MyRealBox.com> wrote in message
news:Pine.NEB.4.62.0605101301460.17694@otaku.freeshell.org...
On Wed, 10 May 2006, Chris Johnson wrote:
<snip>
So are atheists not welcome then? Why would a god belief be a
requirement?
Because the founder of the Boy Scout movement, Robert Baden-Powell
wrote in the first scouting handbook in 1908 these words:
Wasn't he a paedophile?
I think that idea came about through people misunderstanding the book title,
"Scouting for Boys" ;)
Jani
LOL!!
--
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| User: "Christopher A. Lee" |
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| Title: Re: Scout's admission of being Wiccan leads to turmoil |
10 May 2006 01:09:30 PM |
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On Wed, 10 May 2006 19:05:37 +0100, "kathryn" <nospam@here.com> wrote:
"Samuel W. Heywood" <sheywood@MyRealBox.com> wrote in message
news:Pine.NEB.4.62.0605101301460.17694@otaku.freeshell.org...
On Wed, 10 May 2006, Chris Johnson wrote:
<snip>
So are atheists not welcome then? Why would a god belief be a
requirement?
Because the founder of the Boy Scout movement, Robert Baden-Powell
wrote in the first scouting handbook in 1908 these words:
Wasn't he a paedophile?
He was a war hero, during the Boer war at the siege of Mafeking.
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| User: "kathryn" |
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| Title: Re: Scout's admission of being Wiccan leads to turmoil |
10 May 2006 01:21:48 PM |
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"Christopher A. Lee" <calee@optonline.net> wrote in message
news:k1b462lh8frap28t7hco11sf5d4m767eba@4ax.com...
On Wed, 10 May 2006 19:05:37 +0100, "kathryn" <nospam@here.com> wrote:
"Samuel W. Heywood" <sheywood@MyRealBox.com> wrote in message
news:Pine.NEB.4.62.0605101301460.17694@otaku.freeshell.org...
On Wed, 10 May 2006, Chris Johnson wrote:
<snip>
So are atheists not welcome then? Why would a god belief be a
requirement?
Because the founder of the Boy Scout movement, Robert Baden-Powell
wrote in the first scouting handbook in 1908 these words:
Wasn't he a paedophile?
He was a war hero, during the Boer war at the siege of Mafeking.
Nope...fairly sure I didn't get the two confused.
Perhaps it's just mentioned in the UK, not sure whether it's an urban myth
or not.
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| User: "Yeata" |
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| Title: Re: Scout's admission of being Wiccan leads to turmoil |
10 May 2006 02:44:41 PM |
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Those who are weak in their beliefs will always have a problem with
others' opinions, no matter the subject. It's basically the same as a
toddler covering his ears and yelling "Na na na na" so he can't hear.
Immaturity still triumphs! Isn't that sad?
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| User: "Ash" |
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| Title: Re: Scout's admission of being Wiccan leads to turmoil |
10 May 2006 03:51:21 PM |
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Christopher A. Lee wrote:
On Wed, 10 May 2006 19:05:37 +0100, "kathryn" <nospam@here.com> wrote:
"Samuel W. Heywood" <sheywood@MyRealBox.com> wrote in message
news:Pine.NEB.4.62.0605101301460.17694@otaku.freeshell.org...
On Wed, 10 May 2006, Chris Johnson wrote:
<snip>
So are atheists not welcome then? Why would a god belief be a
requirement?
Because the founder of the Boy Scout movement, Robert Baden-Powell
wrote in the first scouting handbook in 1908 these words:
Wasn't he a paedophile?
He was a war hero, during the Boer war at the siege of Mafeking.
UI'm not sure the two are mutually exclusive
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| User: "Therion Ware" |
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| Title: Re: Scout's admission of being Wiccan leads to turmoil |
10 May 2006 11:44:16 PM |
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On the auspictious date of Wed, 10 May 2006 14:09:30 -0400,
Christopher A. Lee said unto the multitude in message-id
<k1b462lh8frap28t7hco11sf5d4m767eba@4ax.com>:
On Wed, 10 May 2006 19:05:37 +0100, "kathryn" <nospam@here.com> wrote:
"Samuel W. Heywood" <sheywood@MyRealBox.com> wrote in message
news:Pine.NEB.4.62.0605101301460.17694@otaku.freeshell.org...
On Wed, 10 May 2006, Chris Johnson wrote:
<snip>
So are atheists not welcome then? Why would a god belief be a
requirement?
Because the founder of the Boy Scout movement, Robert Baden-Powell
wrote in the first scouting handbook in 1908 these words:
Wasn't he a paedophile?
He was a war hero, during the Boer war at the siege of Mafeking.
I think perhaps his greatest achievement was the pamphlet "how to
recognise a spy from behind" written during WW1, IIRC. Mind you, this
opinion may be biased because my lot were thrown out of Cambridge
scouts for refusing to wear a uniform.
--
"Do unto others as you would have then do unto you".
- attrib: Pauline Réage.
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| User: "Nevermore" |
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| Title: Re: Scout's admission of being Wiccan leads to turmoil |
10 May 2006 06:02:53 PM |
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In <Pine.NEB.4.62.0605101301460.17694@otaku.freeshell.org> Samuel W.
Heywood wrote:
From: "Samuel W. Heywood" <sheywood@MyRealBox.com>
Newsgroups: rec.scouting.issues,alt.religion.christianity,alt.religion.
wicca,alt.pagan,alt.atheism Subject: Re: Scout's admission of being
Wiccan leads to turmoil Date: Wed, 10 May 2006 13:19:13 -0400
On Wed, 10 May 2006, Chris Johnson wrote:
<snip>
So are atheists not welcome then? Why would a god belief be a
requirement?
Because the founder of the Boy Scout movement, Robert Baden-Powell
wrote in the first scouting handbook in 1908 these words:
"No man is much good unless he believes in God and obeys His Laws.
So every Scout should have a religion".
The tradition of discriminating against atheists was established
by their beloved founder.
Actually, I think that's a disservice to Baden-Powell and the Scouts -
two entities that over the century did a lot of good for a lot of kids
until some fundamentalist @#$*@#!s hijacked the BSA in recent years.
Having a religion in the broadest sense and a direct belief in God-the-
Fairy-Godfather are two distinct things that in saner times (like 1776)
we used to have a better grip on until the literalists showed up. My
troop kept a lot of pyromaniacs off the streets and gainfully learning
outdoor skills and we had Xtians, Hindus, Jews, and not a few Witches
among our ranks. It was never an issue.
Nevermore (Knot this)
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| User: "Jani" |
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| Title: Re: Scout's admission of being Wiccan leads to turmoil |
10 May 2006 06:15:22 PM |
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"Nevermore" <burned@thestake.net> wrote in message
news:20060510190253661-0400@news1.news.adelphia.net...
In <Pine.NEB.4.62.0605101301460.17694@otaku.freeshell.org> Samuel W.
Heywood wrote:
From: "Samuel W. Heywood" <sheywood@MyRealBox.com>
Newsgroups: rec.scouting.issues,alt.religion.christianity,alt.religion.
wicca,alt.pagan,alt.atheism Subject: Re: Scout's admission of being
Wiccan leads to turmoil Date: Wed, 10 May 2006 13:19:13 -0400
On Wed, 10 May 2006, Chris Johnson wrote:
<snip>
So are atheists not welcome then? Why would a god belief be a
requirement?
Because the founder of the Boy Scout movement, Robert Baden-Powell
wrote in the first scouting handbook in 1908 these words:
"No man is much good unless he believes in God and obeys His Laws.
So every Scout should have a religion".
The tradition of discriminating against atheists was established
by their beloved founder.
Actually, I think that's a disservice to Baden-Powell and the Scouts -
two entities that over the century did a lot of good for a lot of kids
until some fundamentalist @#$*@#!s hijacked the BSA in recent years.
Having a religion in the broadest sense and a direct belief in God-the-
Fairy-Godfather are two distinct things that in saner times (like 1776)
we used to have a better grip on until the literalists showed up. My
troop kept a lot of pyromaniacs off the streets and gainfully learning
outdoor skills and we had Xtians, Hindus, Jews, and not a few Witches
among our ranks. It was never an issue.
Apparently, in the UK, the only people banned from being Scout leaders are
atheists and gays ...
Jani
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| User: "Brian Salter-Duke" |
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| Title: Re: Scout's admission of being Wiccan leads to turmoil |
11 May 2006 07:05:51 AM |
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In rec.scouting.issues Jani <jani@dsl.pipex.com> wrote:
"Nevermore" <burned@thestake.net> wrote in message
news:20060510190253661-0400@news1.news.adelphia.net...
In <Pine.NEB.4.62.0605101301460.17694@otaku.freeshell.org> Samuel W.
Heywood wrote:
From: "Samuel W. Heywood" <sheywood@MyRealBox.com>
Newsgroups: rec.scouting.issues,alt.religion.christianity,alt.religion.
wicca,alt.pagan,alt.atheism Subject: Re: Scout's admission of being
Wiccan leads to turmoil Date: Wed, 10 May 2006 13:19:13 -0400
On Wed, 10 May 2006, Chris Johnson wrote:
<snip>
So are atheists not welcome then? Why would a god belief be a
requirement?
Because the founder of the Boy Scout movement, Robert Baden-Powell
wrote in the first scouting handbook in 1908 these words:
"No man is much good unless he believes in God and obeys His Laws.
So every Scout should have a religion".
The tradition of discriminating against atheists was established
by their beloved founder.
Actually, I think that's a disservice to Baden-Powell and the Scouts -
two entities that over the century did a lot of good for a lot of kids
until some fundamentalist @#$*@#!s hijacked the BSA in recent years.
Having a religion in the broadest sense and a direct belief in God-the-
Fairy-Godfather are two distinct things that in saner times (like 1776)
we used to have a better grip on until the literalists showed up. My
troop kept a lot of pyromaniacs off the streets and gainfully learning
outdoor skills and we had Xtians, Hindus, Jews, and not a few Witches
among our ranks. It was never an issue.
Apparently, in the UK, the only people banned from being Scout leaders are
atheists and gays ...
Evidence? I understand that the Scout Association (UK Scouting) has a
clear policy of not rejecting gays. It does however expect leaders to
affirm the Promise.
Jani
--
Brian Salter-Duke Melbourne, Australia
My real address is b_duke(AT)octa4(DOT)net(DOT)au
Use this for reply or followup
.
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| User: "Jani" |
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| Title: Re: Scout's admission of being Wiccan leads to turmoil |
11 May 2006 08:51:01 AM |
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"Brian Salter-Duke" <b_duke@octa4.net.au> wrote in message
news:zMF8g.1869$S7.1579@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
In rec.scouting.issues Jani <jani@dsl.pipex.com> wrote:
"Nevermore" <burned@thestake.net> wrote in message
news:20060510190253661-0400@news1.news.adelphia.net...
In <Pine.NEB.4.62.0605101301460.17694@otaku.freeshell.org> Samuel W.
Heywood wrote:
From: "Samuel W. Heywood" <sheywood@MyRealBox.com>
Newsgroups: rec.scouting.issues,alt.religion.christianity,alt.religion.
wicca,alt.pagan,alt.atheism Subject: Re: Scout's admission of being
Wiccan leads to turmoil Date: Wed, 10 May 2006 13:19:13 -0400
On Wed, 10 May 2006, Chris Johnson wrote:
<snip>
So are atheists not welcome then? Why would a god belief be a
requirement?
Because the founder of the Boy Scout movement, Robert Baden-Powell
wrote in the first scouting handbook in 1908 these words:
"No man is much good unless he believes in God and obeys His Laws.
So every Scout should have a religion".
The tradition of discriminating against atheists was established
by their beloved founder.
Actually, I think that's a disservice to Baden-Powell and the Scouts -
two entities that over the century did a lot of good for a lot of kids
until some fundamentalist @#$*@#!s hijacked the BSA in recent years.
Having a religion in the broadest sense and a direct belief in God-the-
Fairy-Godfather are two distinct things that in saner times (like 1776)
we used to have a better grip on until the literalists showed up. My
troop kept a lot of pyromaniacs off the streets and gainfully learning
outdoor skills and we had Xtians, Hindus, Jews, and not a few Witches
among our ranks. It was never an issue.
Apparently, in the UK, the only people banned from being Scout leaders
are
atheists and gays ...
Evidence? I understand that the Scout Association (UK Scouting) has a
clear policy of not rejecting gays. It does however expect leaders to
affirm the Promise.
Read it somewhere. I was sort of hoping someone would provide evidence that
I was wrong ...
Jani
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| User: "Martin" |
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| Title: Re: Scout's admission of being Wiccan leads to turmoil |
11 May 2006 01:03:56 PM |
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Jani wrote:
"Brian Salter-Duke" <b_duke@octa4.net.au> wrote in message
news:zMF8g.1869$S7.1579@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
In rec.scouting.issues Jani <jani@dsl.pipex.com> wrote:
"Nevermore" <burned@thestake.net> wrote in message
news:20060510190253661-0400@news1.news.adelphia.net...
In <Pine.NEB.4.62.0605101301460.17694@otaku.freeshell.org> Samuel W.
Heywood wrote:
From: "Samuel W. Heywood" <sheywood@MyRealBox.com>
Newsgroups: rec.scouting.issues,alt.religion.christianity,alt.religion.
wicca,alt.pagan,alt.atheism Subject: Re: Scout's admission of being
Wiccan leads to turmoil Date: Wed, 10 May 2006 13:19:13 -0400
On Wed, 10 May 2006, Chris Johnson wrote:
<snip>
So are atheists not welcome then? Why would a god belief be a
requirement?
Because the founder of the Boy Scout movement, Robert Baden-Powell
wrote in the first scouting handbook in 1908 these words:
"No man is much good unless he believes in God and obeys His Laws.
So every Scout should have a religion".
The tradition of discriminating against atheists was established
by their beloved founder.
Actually, I think that's a disservice to Baden-Powell and the Scouts -
two entities that over the century did a lot of good for a lot of kids
until some fundamentalist @#$*@#!s hijacked the BSA in recent years.
Having a religion in the broadest sense and a direct belief in God-the-
Fairy-Godfather are two distinct things that in saner times (like 1776)
we used to have a better grip on until the literalists showed up. My
troop kept a lot of pyromaniacs off the streets and gainfully learning
outdoor skills and we had Xtians, Hindus, Jews, and not a few Witches
among our ranks. It was never an issue.
Apparently, in the UK, the only people banned from being Scout leaders
are
atheists and gays ...
Evidence? I understand that the Scout Association (UK Scouting) has a
clear policy of not rejecting gays. It does however expect leaders to
affirm the Promise.
Read it somewhere. I was sort of hoping someone would provide evidence that
I was wrong ...
I've just written to them. Let's see what they say lol I couldn't
official policy on the web site anywhere.
Jani
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| User: "Chimp" |
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| Title: Re: Scout's admission of being Wiccan leads to turmoil |
12 May 2006 06:28:14 AM |
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Martin wrote:
Apparently, in the UK, the only people banned from being Scout leaders
are atheists and gays ...
Evidence? I understand that the Scout Association (UK Scouting) has a
clear policy of not rejecting gays. It does however expect leaders to
affirm the Promise.
Read it somewhere. I was sort of hoping someone would provide evidence that
I was wrong ...
I've just written to them. Let's see what they say lol I couldn't
official policy on the web site anywhere.
Previously on r.s.i. it has been stated that the UK Scout
Association's policy is that they accept avowed gays (men
who state that they are sexually attracted to men) but
will not accept anyone stating that they have a sexual
attraction towards boys.
They do "officially" reject any leader who lacks a belief
in (a vaguely defined) God, but this policy is widely
ignored. In practise, you'd have to be vocally disparaging
of religion to be turned down. After all, they are short of
leaders, and pragmatism takes over.
Chimp
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| User: "Martin" |
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| Title: Re: Scout's admission of being Wiccan leads to turmoil |
12 May 2006 07:29:15 AM |
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Chimp wrote:
Martin wrote:
Apparently, in the UK, the only people banned from being Scout leaders
are atheists and gays ...
Evidence? I understand that the Scout Association (UK Scouting) has a
clear policy of not rejecting gays. It does however expect leaders to
affirm the Promise.
Read it somewhere. I was sort of hoping someone would provide evidence that
I was wrong ...
I've just written to them. Let's see what they say lol I couldn't
official policy on the web site anywhere.
Previously on r.s.i. it has been stated that the UK Scout
Association's policy is that they accept avowed gays (men
who state that they are sexually attracted to men) but
will not accept anyone stating that they have a sexual
attraction towards boys.
They do "officially" reject any leader who lacks a belief
in (a vaguely defined) God, but this policy is widely
ignored. In practise, you'd have to be vocally disparaging
of religion to be turned down. After all, they are short of
leaders, and pragmatism takes over.
I got a reply, which basicilly is a link to the parts of their web site
- I guesse they have been asked this before.
http://www.scoutbase.org.uk/library/hqdocs/por/2006/2_2.htm#part_1
Seems to be all inclusive for scouts, but for leaders
"Note: With reference to religious belief, the avowed absence of
religious belief is a bar to appointment to a Leadership position."
Seems a little strange to me, I know a few scout leaders, I'll have to
raise this.
And they don't like kiddie fiddlers either
"Note: Paedophilia is a bar to any involvement in the Scout Movement."
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| User: "Jani" |
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| Title: Re: Scout's admission of being Wiccan leads to turmoil |
12 May 2006 06:45:11 PM |
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"Martin" <usenet1@etiqa.co.uk> wrote in message
news:44647f94$0$694$fa0fcedb@news.zen.co.uk...
Chimp wrote:
Martin wrote:
Apparently, in the UK, the only people banned from being Scout
leaders
are atheists and gays ...
Evidence? I understand that the Scout Association (UK Scouting) has a
clear policy of not rejecting gays. It does however expect leaders to
affirm the Promise.
Read it somewhere. I was sort of hoping someone would provide evidence
that
I was wrong ...
I've just written to them. Let's see what they say lol I couldn't
official policy on the web site anywhere.
Previously on r.s.i. it has been stated that the UK Scout
Association's policy is that they accept avowed gays (men
who state that they are sexually attracted to men) but
will not accept anyone stating that they have a sexual
attraction towards boys.
They do "officially" reject any leader who lacks a belief
in (a vaguely defined) God, but this policy is widely
ignored. In practise, you'd have to be vocally disparaging
of religion to be turned down. After all, they are short of
leaders, and pragmatism takes over.
I got a reply, which basicilly is a link to the parts of their web site -
I guesse they have been asked this before.
http://www.scoutbase.org.uk/library/hqdocs/por/2006/2_2.htm#part_1
Seems to be all inclusive for scouts, but for leaders
"Note: With reference to religious belief, the avowed absence of religious
belief is a bar to appointment to a Leadership position."
Seems a little strange to me, I know a few scout leaders, I'll have to
raise this.
And they don't like kiddie fiddlers either
"Note: Paedophilia is a bar to any involvement in the Scout Movement."
I'm at a loss to see how any but the most deluded NAMBLA type would actually
*state* an 'attraction towards boys', to be honest.... The UK site says that
discrimination on the grounds of 'marital or sexual status' is not
acceptable, which is fair enough, and seems to indicate they've grasped the
basic concept that homosexuality is not paedophilia.
As to atheism, there seems to be a lot of provision made for those of
non-christian beliefs, but not for those of no belief. If there is an
alternative pledge which doesn't require reference to deity, as it seems
from other posts that there is, then I can't quite see why theism/deism
should be a requirement for either leaders or members.
(As an analogy, most people in the UK swear on the bible in court, but there
is no problem with atheists, as well as non-christians, making the
affirmation rather than taking the oath.)
Jani
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| User: "Christopher A. Lee" |
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| Title: Re: Scout's admission of being Wiccan leads to turmoil |
12 May 2006 06:59:48 AM |
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On 12 May 2006 04:28:14 -0700, "Chimp" <pan_paniscus1859@yahoo.com>
wrote:
Martin wrote:
Apparently, in the UK, the only people banned from being Scout leaders
are atheists and gays ...
Evidence? I understand that the Scout Association (UK Scouting) has a
clear policy of not rejecting gays. It does however expect leaders to
affirm the Promise.
Read it somewhere. I was sort of hoping someone would provide evidence that
I was wrong ...
I've just written to them. Let's see what they say lol I couldn't
official policy on the web site anywhere.
Previously on r.s.i. it has been stated that the UK Scout
Association's policy is that they accept avowed gays (men
who state that they are sexually attracted to men) but
will not accept anyone stating that they have a sexual
attraction towards boys.
And that is commendable. Yet the latter are over-represented in the
Scouts.
They do "officially" reject any leader who lacks a belief
in (a vaguely defined) God, but this policy is widely
ignored. In practise, you'd have to be vocally disparaging
of religion to be turned down. After all, they are short of
leaders, and pragmatism takes over.
That's the UK, where (at least in England) somebody's religion is a
private matter and it is bad form to push it. Although Scotland, Wales
and Northern Ireland tend to be strongly religious.
Even in the 1950s and early 1960s atheists in England were accepted by
many troops who simply turned a blind eye to it. And there were troups
chartered by eg Buddhist immigrants that left that part out of the
promise. With the national organisation's approval.
Unfortunately in the US atheists have to put up with the kind of
bigotry that other developed countries don't have.
http://www.cnn.com/US/9801/06/scouts.court.update/
"Allowing gays and atheists in, Davidson [a lawyer representing the
BSA] said, would be like asking the NAACP to provide services to the
Ku Klux Klan."
That kind of sheer nastiness hardly helps.
Chimp
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| User: "Nevermore" |
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| Title: Re: Scout's admission of being Wiccan leads to turmoil |
11 May 2006 08:57:57 AM |
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In <zMF8g.1869$S7.1579@news-server.bigpond.net.au> Brian Salter-Duke
wrote:
In rec.scouting.issues Jani <jani@dsl.pipex.com> wrote:
"Nevermore" <burned@thestake.net> wrote in message
news:20060510190253661-0400@news1.news.adelphia.net...
In <Pine.NEB.4.62.0605101301460.17694@otaku.freeshell.org> Samuel W.
Heywood wrote:
From: "Samuel W. Heywood" <sheywood@MyRealBox.com>
Newsgroups: rec.scouting.issues,alt.religion.christianity,alt.
religion. wicca,alt.pagan,alt.atheism Subject: Re: Scout's
admission of being Wiccan leads to turmoil Date: Wed, 10 May 2006
13:19:13 -0400
On Wed, 10 May 2006, Chris Johnson wrote:
<snip>
So are atheists not welcome then? Why would a god belief be a
requirement?
Because the founder of the Boy Scout movement, Robert Baden-Powell
wrote in the first scouting handbook in 1908 these words:
"No man is much good unless he believes in God and obeys His Laws.
So every Scout should have a religion".
The tradition of discriminating against atheists was established
by their beloved founder.
Actually, I think that's a disservice to Baden-Powell and the Scouts -
two entities that over the century did a lot of good for a lot of
kids until some fundamentalist @#$*@#!s hijacked the BSA in recent
years. Having a religion in the broadest sense and a direct belief
in God-the- Fairy-Godfather are two distinct things that in saner
times (like 1776) we used to have a better grip on until the
literalists showed up. My troop kept a lot of pyromaniacs off the
streets and gainfully learning outdoor skills and we had Xtians,
Hindus, Jews, and not a few Witches among our ranks. It was never
an issue.
Apparently, in the UK, the only people banned from being Scout
leaders are atheists and gays ...
Evidence? I understand that the Scout Association (UK Scouting) has a
clear policy of not rejecting gays. It does however expect leaders to
affirm the Promise.
Well, old BP himself wrote two versions of the Scout Promise, including
the following, equally valid, version which is considerably less
religious in that it does NOT directly mention God like the main version:
On my honor I promise to do my best:
To render service to my country;
To help other people at all times;
To obey the Scout Law.
If it was good enough for Baden Powell it @&*#! well ought to be good
enough for the local Baptist scout troop in Nebraska.
Nevermore (Render unto crows what is crows)
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: Scout's admission of being Wiccan leads to turmoil |
11 May 2006 04:05:07 AM |
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Jani wrote:
"Nevermore" <burned@thestake.net> wrote in message
news:20060510190253661-0400@news1.news.adelphia.net...
In <Pine.NEB.4.62.0605101301460.17694@otaku.freeshell.org> Samuel W.
Heywood wrote:
From: "Samuel W. Heywood" <sheywood@MyRealBox.com>
Newsgroups: rec.scouting.issues,alt.religion.christianity,alt.religion.
wicca,alt.pagan,alt.atheism Subject: Re: Scout's admission of being
Wiccan leads to turmoil Date: Wed, 10 May 2006 13:19:13 -0400
On Wed, 10 May 2006, Chris Johnson wrote:
<snip>
So are atheists not welcome then? Why would a god belief be a
requirement?
Because the founder of the Boy Scout movement, Robert Baden-Powell
wrote in the first scouting handbook in 1908 these words:
"No man is much good unless he believes in God and obeys His Laws.
So every Scout should have a religion".
The tradition of discriminating against atheists was established
by their beloved founder.
Actually, I think that's a disservice to Baden-Powell and the Scouts -
two entities that over the century did a lot of good for a lot of kids
until some fundamentalist @#$*@#!s hijacked the BSA in recent years.
Having a religion in the broadest sense and a direct belief in God-the-
Fairy-Godfather are two distinct things that in saner times (like 1776)
we used to have a better grip on until the literalists showed up. My
troop kept a lot of pyromaniacs off the streets and gainfully learning
outdoor skills and we had Xtians, Hindus, Jews, and not a few Witches
among our ranks. It was never an issue.
Apparently, in the UK, the only people banned from being Scout leaders are
atheists and gays ...
Jani
You see, the US is progressive again! The poor can't be Scout leaders
either in the US. Fees, fees, fees, and you should see what some of
that kit costs..<g>
-Panama Floyd, Atl.
aa#2015, Member Knights of BAAWA!
EAC Martian Commander
"..the prayer cloth of one aeon is the doormat of the next."
-Mark Twain
Religious societies are *less* moral than secular ones:
http://moses.creighton.edu/JRS/2005/2005-11.html
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| User: "Christopher A. Lee" |
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| Title: Re: Scout's admission of being Wiccan leads to turmoil |
10 May 2006 12:49:09 PM |
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On Wed, 10 May 2006 13:19:13 -0400, "Samuel W. Heywood"
<sheywood@MyRealBox.com> wrote:
On Wed, 10 May 2006, Chris Johnson wrote:
<snip>
So are atheists not welcome then? Why would a god belief be a
requirement?
Because the founder of the Boy Scout movement, Robert Baden-Powell
wrote in the first scouting handbook in 1908 these words:
"No man is much good unless he believes in God and obeys His Laws.
So every Scout should have a religion".
And he was wrong.
The tradition of discriminating against atheists was established
by their beloved founder.
Yet many national organisations turn a blind eye. Times have changed.
Sam Heywood
-- Message handled by Pine, Version 4.62
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| User: "Chimp" |
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| Title: Re: Scout's admission of being Wiccan leads to turmoil |
10 May 2006 12:15:02 PM |
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Fred Goodwin, CMA wrote:
Scout's admission of being Wiccan leads to turmoil
Not everyone embraced the church's decision, including some parents of
troop members who, officials said, feared that their children would be
preached to by the two boys.
Amazing how Christians are both the most likely to evangelize
and "witness" their faith, and also the least tolerant of their kids
encountering any opinion other than theirs.
Chimp
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: Scout's admission of being Wiccan leads to turmoil |
10 May 2006 01:02:11 PM |
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Chimp wrote:
Fred Goodwin, CMA wrote:
Scout's admission of being Wiccan leads to turmoil
Not everyone embraced the church's decision, including some parents of
troop members who, officials said, feared that their children would be
preached to by the two boys.
Amazing how Christians are both the most likely to evangelize
and "witness" their faith, and also the least tolerant of their kids
encountering any opinion other than theirs.
Chimp
I think it's one of two things:
1) It shows they are so weak in their own faith that they feel threaten
by others with different religious views.
2) They realize that children are impressionable and they don't want
anyone interferring with the indoctrination of their, and other,
children.
nafc
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| User: "The List Man" |
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| Title: Re: Scout's admission of being Wiccan leads to turmoil |
10 May 2006 01:17:10 PM |
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wrote:
Chimp wrote:
Fred Goodwin, CMA wrote:
Scout's admission of being Wiccan leads to turmoil
Not everyone embraced the church's decision, including some parents of
troop members who, officials said, feared that their children would be
preached to by the two boys.
Amazing how Christians are both the most likely to evangelize
and "witness" their faith, and also the least tolerant of their kids
encountering any opinion other than theirs.
Chimp
I think it's one of two things:
1) It shows they are so weak in their own faith that they feel threaten
by others with different religious views.
2) They realize that children are impressionable and they don't want
anyone interferring with the indoctrination of their, and other,
children.
Agreed, sort of like the commies banning books or talk about capitalism.
--
The List Man
http://www.esotericwonders.com
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| User: "Seamus" |
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| Title: Re: Scout's admission of being Wiccan leads to turmoil |
10 May 2006 08:00:47 PM |
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Commies? Hell, there are braindead American Republicans & Democrats
that ban books.
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| User: "ren" |
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| Title: Re: Scout's admission of being Wiccan leads to turmoil |
10 May 2006 08:28:38 PM |
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I was a cub scout. I don't remember going to church being a merit
badge. Or was it...
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| User: "Nevermore" |
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| Title: Re: Scout's admission of being Wiccan leads to turmoil |
11 May 2006 08:32:08 AM |
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In <1147310918.160232.300840@g10g2000cwb.googlegroups.com> ren wrote:
From: "ren" <ren1999@hotmail.com>
Newsgroups: rec.scouting.issues,alt.religion.christianity,alt.religion.
wicca,alt.pagan,alt.atheism Subject: Re: Scout's admission of being
Wiccan leads to turmoil Date: 10 May 2006 18:28:38 -0700 Organization:
http://groups.google.com
I was a cub scout. I don't remember going to church being a merit
badge. Or was it...
I just remember thinking that the so-called "rule" that we couldn't soak
the Pinewood Derby cars in lighter fluid and torch 'em up during the run
was pretty damn arbitrary since it doesn't actually say anything one way
or the other about it in the handbook.
Nevermore
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