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Topic: Religions > Atheism
User: "The Artist currently known as cpt"
Date: 12 Jul 2004 03:40:51 PM
Object: Scular Humanism aka atheism is a religion
Is "Secular Humanism" a "Religion"?
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----
John Dewey described Humanism as our "common faith." Julian Huxley
called it "Religion without Revelation." The first Humanist Manifesto spoke
openly of Humanism as a religion. Many other Humanists could be cited who
have acknowledged that Humanism is a religion. In fact, claiming that
Humanism was "the new religion" was trendy for at least 100 years, perhaps
beginning in 1875 with the publication of The Religion of Humanity by
Octavius Brooks Frothingham (1822-1895), son of the distinguished Unitarian
clergyman, Nathaniel Langdon Frothingham (1793-1870), pastor of the First
Unitarian Church of Boston, 1815-1850. In the 1950's, Humanists sought and
obtained tax-exempt status as religious organizations. Even the Supreme
Court of the United States spoke in 1961 of Secular Humanism as a religion.
It was a struggle to get atheism accepted as a religion, but it happened.
From 1962-1980 this was not a controversial issue.
But then Christians began to challenge the "establishment of religion"
which Secular Humanism in public schools represented. They used the same
tactic Atheists had used to challenge prayer and Bible reading under the
"Establishment Clause" of the First Amendment. Now the ACLU is involved. Now
the question is controversial. Now Secular Humanists have completely
reversed their strategy, and claim that Humanism is not at all religious,
but is "scientific."
This page examines two issues:
a.. Secular Humanists and Humanistic courts have admitted that
Humanism is a religion.
b.. Why they now claim Humanism is not a religion, in order to avoid
problems under the "Establishment Clause" of the First Amendment.
For further reading, see R.J. Rushdoony, The Messianic Character of
American Education, chapter 27, "Education as a Religion." He writes,
[T]he state school is a religious institution. As pointed out in
Intellectual Schizophrenia, the public school is the established church of
today and a substitute institution for the medieval church, dedicated to the
same monolithic conception of society. Some years ago, Dewey very candidly
discussed "Education as a Religion" (John Dewey, "Education as a Religion,"
The New Republic, August, 1922, p. 64f.) As Whitehead observed, "The essence
of education is that it be religious." (Alfred North Whitehead, The Aims of
Education, NY: Mentor Books, 1952, p. 26)
The public or state schools have thus been inescapably
religious. Their "common faith" has been described as "made up of elements
provided by Rousseau, Jefferson, August Comte, and John Dewey. 'Civil
religion' is an apt designation for this faith." (G.H. Williams, Harvard
Divinity School Bulletin, 1948-1949, p. 41.)
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----
In 1961, the U.S. Supreme Court acknowledged that Secular Humanism was a
religion. Nevertheless, many Humanists deny the significance of the Court's
assertion. In order to buttress the claim that the identification of Secular
Humanism as a religion in a footnote in the Torcaso case is more than mere
"dicta," here is a memorandum prepared "[a]t the request of the staff of the
Committee on Education and Labor" by Congressman John B. Conlan.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----
The U.S. Supreme Court cited Secular Humanism as a religion in the
1961 case of Torcaso v. Watkins (367 U.S. 488). Roy Torcaso, the appellant,
a practicing Humanist in Maryland, had refused to declare his belief in
Almighty God, as then required by State law in order for him to be
commissioned as a notary public. The Court held that the requirement for
such an oath "invades appellant's freedom of belief and religion."
The Court declared in Torcaso that the "no establishment" clause of
the First Amendment reached far more than churches of theistic faiths, that
it is not the business of government or its agents to probe beliefs, and
that therefore its inquiry is concluded by the fact of the profession of
belief. Actually, the Court in Torcaso rested its decision on "free
exercise" grounds, not the "Establishment Clause." Abington v. Schempp, 374
U.S. 203, 264-65 (1962) J. Brennan, concurring.
The Court stated:
We repeat and again reaffirm that neither a State nor the Federal
Government can constitutionally force a person to "profess a belief or
disbelief in any religion." Neither can constitutionally pass laws or impose
requirements which aid all religions as against non-believers,10 and neither
can aid those religions based on a belief in the existence of God as against
those religions founded on different beliefs.11
Footnote 11 concerning "religions founded on different beliefs"
contains the Court's citation of Secular Humanism as a religion. It states
Among religions in this country which do not teach what would
generally be considered a belief in the existence of God are Buddhism,
Taoism, Ethical Culture, Secular Humanism, and others. See Washington
Ethical Society v. District of Columbia, 101 U.S. App. D.C. 371, 249 F.2d
127; Fellowship of Humanity v. County of Alameda, 153 Cal. App. 2d 673, 315
P.2d 394; II Encyclopedia of the Social Sciences 293; 4 Encyclopedia
Britannica (1957 ed.) 325-327; 21 id., at 797; Archer, Faiths Men Live By
(2d ed. revised by Purinton), 120-138, 254-313; 1961 World Almanac 695, 712;
Year Book of American Churches for 1961, at 29, 47.
It is important to note that this citation of Secular Humanism as a
religion is not merely dictum. The Supreme Court refers to the important
1957 case of Washington Ethical Society v. District of Columbia (101 U.S.
App. D.C. 371) in its holding that Secular Humanism is a non-theistic
religion within the meaning of the First Amendment.
The Ethical Culture movement is one denomination of Secular Humanism
which reaches moral and cultural relativism, situation ethics, and attacks
belief in a spiritual God and theistic values of the Old and New Testaments.
The Washington Ethical Society case involved denial of the Society's
application for tax exemption as a religious organization. The U.S. Court of
Appeals reversed the Tax Court's ruling, defined the Society as a religious
organization, and granted its tax exemption.
The Court Stated,
The sole issue raised is whether petitioner falls within the
definition of a "church" or a "religious society" . . . . The taxing
authority urges denial of the tax exemption asserting petitioner is not a
religious society or church and that it does not use its buildings for
religious worship since "religious" and "worship" require a belief in and
teaching of a Supreme Being who controls the universe. The position of the
tax Court, in denying tax exemption, was that belief in and teaching of the
existence of a Divinity is essential to qualify under the statute. . . . To
construe exemptions so strictly that unorthodox or minority forms of worship
would be denied the exemption benefits granted to those conforming to the
majority beliefs might well raise constitutional issues . . . . We hold on
this record and under the controlling statutory language petitioner
qualifies as "a religious corporation or society" . . . .
It is incumbent upon Congress to utilize this broad definition of
religion in all its legislative actions bearing on the support or
non-support of religion, within the context of the "no-establishment" clause
of the First Amendment.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----
Other Justices have reflected back on the Torcaso opinion and confirmed our
analysis.
Justice Scalia wrote:
In Torcaso v. Watkins, 367 U.S. 488, 495, n. 11 (1961), we did indeed
refer to "SECULAR HUMANISM" as a "religio[n]."
Edwards v. Aguillard, 482 U.S. 578 (1987) note 6
Justice Harlan summed it all up:
[Footnote 8] This Court has taken notice of the fact that recognized
"religions" exist that "do not teach what would generally be considered a
belief in the existence of God," Torcaso v. Watkins, 367 U.S. 488, 495 n.
11, e. g., "Buddhism, Taoism, Ethical Culture, SECULAR HUMANISM and others."
Ibid. See also Washington Ethical Society v. District of Columbia, 101 U.S.
App. D.C. 371, 249 F.2d 127 (1957); 2 Encyclopaedia of the Social Sciences
293; J. Archer, Faiths Men Live By 120-138, 254-313 (2d ed. revised by
Purinton 1958); Stokes & Pfeffer, supra, n. 3, at 560.
Welsh v. United States 398 U.S. 333 (1970) note 8
But many who favor a secularist "separation of church and state" will
contend that fundamentalists invented the idea that Humanism is a religion.
Like most Americans, these secularists do not understand the legal issues
involved here.
The Humanist-dominated Court is permitting Secular Humanists to have their
cake and eat it too.
Secular Humanism is a religion
"for Free Exercise Clause purposes."
The Court has undeniably defined Secular Humanism as a religion "for free
exercise purposes." When Secular Humanists want the benefits of a religion,
they get them.
Tax Exemption. Secular Humanism has been granted tax-exempt status as a
religion. The Torcaso quote cited the cases.
Conscientious Objection. Even though Congress originally granted
conscientious objector status only to those who objected to war for
religious reasons (i.e., because of a belief in God), the Supreme Court
turned around and said that Humanists who don't believe in God are
"religious" for C.O. purposes. U.S. v. Seeger, 380 U.S. 163, 183, 85 S.Ct.
850, 13 L.Ed.2d 733, 746 (Holding that belief in a "Supreme Being" is not a
necessary component of "religion," quoting a Secular Humanist source, "Thus
the 'God' that we love . . . is . . . humanity.")
So Secular Humanism is emphatically and undeniably a religion -- "for free
exercise purposes."
Any claim that "the clear weight of the caselaw" is against the proposition
that Secular Humanism is a religion is a misleading claim. Secular Humanism
is a religion ("for free exercise clause purposes").
Secular Humanism is Not a religion
"for Establishment Clause purposes."
But when Christians attempt to get the religion of Secular Humanism out of
the government schools, based on the same emotional frame of mind which
atheists had when they went to court against God in schools, then
pro-secularist courts speak out of the other side of their faces and say
that Secular Humanism is NOT a religion "for establishment clause purposes."
This is slimy deceitful legalism at its worst.
But it explains why so many are confused about whether Secular Humanism is a
religion.
Here is the rule: When Secular Humanists want the benefits of religion,
Secular Humanism is a religion. When Secular Humanists are challenged for
propagating their religion in public schools, it is not a religion. If that
sounds insane, it is; but all insane people are still rational. This
insanity is cloaked in the rational-sounding rhetoric of constitutional law.
Remember:
Secular Humanism is a religion "for free exercise clause purposes," and it
is not a religion "for establishment clause purposes."
Here's how it works. In Peloza v. Capistrano Unified School Dist., 37 F.3d
517 (9th Cir. 1994), a high school biology teacher tried to balance the
teaching of evolutionism with creationism based on the claim that Secular
Humanism (and its core belief, evolutionism) is a religion. The court
emphatically rejected this claim:
We reject this claim because neither the Supreme Court, nor this circuit,
has ever held that evolutionism or secular humanism are "religions" for
Establishment Clause purposes. Indeed, both the dictionary definition of
religion and the clear weight of the caselaw5 are to the contrary. The
Supreme Court has held unequivocally that while the belief in a divine
creator of the universe is a religious belief, the scientific theory that
higher forms of life evolved from lower forms is not. Edwards v. Aguillard,
482 U.S. 578, 107 S.Ct. 2573, 96 L.Ed.2d 510 (1987) (holding
unconstitutional, under Establishment Clause, Louisiana's "Balanced
Treatment for Creation-Science and Evolution-Science in Public School
Instruction Act").
Note 5: See Smith v. Board of School Com'rs of Mobile County, 827 F.2d
684, 690-95 (11th Cir. 1987) (refusing to adopt district court's holding
that "secular humanism" is a religion for Establishment Clause purposes;
deciding case on other grounds); United States v. Allen, 760 F.2d 447,
450-51 (2d Cir. 1985) (quoting Tribe, American Constitutional Law 827-28
(1978), for the proposition that, while "religion" should be broadly
interpreted for Free Exercise Clause purposes, "anything `arguably
non-religious' should not be considered religious in applying the
establishment clause").
Thus a teacher who wants to tell his students about his religious beliefs is
free to do so if his religion is the religion of Secular Humanism, but may
not tell his students about his religious beliefs if his religion is
Christianity. Christians are not even allowed to discuss Christianity with
students during lunch break, while Secular Humanists are allowed to teach
the tenets of the religion of Secular Humanism from the blackboard during
class.
Peloza alleges the school district ordered him to refrain from discussing
his religious beliefs with students during "instructional time," and to tell
any students who attempted to initiate such conversations with him to
consult their parents or clergy. He claims the school district, in the
following official reprimand, defined "instructional time" as any time the
students are on campus, including lunch break and the time before, between,
and after classes:
You are hereby directed to refrain from any attempt to convert students
to Christianity or initiating conversations about your religious beliefs
during instructional time, which the District believes includes any time
students are required to be on campus as well as the time students
immediately arrive for the purposes of attending school for instruction,
lunch time, and the time immediately prior to students' departure after the
instructional day.
Complaint at 16. Peloza seeks a declaration that this definition of
instructional time is too broad, and that he should be allowed to
participate in student-initiated discussions of religious matters when he is
not actually teaching class.
The school district's interest in avoiding an Establishment Clause
violation trumps Peloza's right to free speech.
While at the high school, whether he is in the classroom or outside of it
during contract time, Peloza is not just any ordinary citizen. He is a
teacher. He is one of those especially respected persons chosen to teach in
the high school's classroom. He is clothed with the mantle of one who
imparts knowledge and wisdom. His expressions of opinion are all the more
believable because he is a teacher. The likelihood of high school students
equating his views with those of the school is substantial. To permit him to
discuss his religious beliefs with students during school time on school
grounds would violate the Establishment Clause of the First Amendment. Such
speech would not have a secular purpose, would have the primary effect of
advancing religion, and would entangle the school with religion. In sum, it
would flunk all three parts of the test articulated in Lemon v. Kurtzman,
403 U.S. 602, 91 S.Ct. 2105, 29 L.Ed.2d 745 (1971). See Roberts v. Madigan,
921 F.2d 1047, 1056-58 (10th Cir. 1990) (teacher could be prohibited from
reading Bible during silent reading period, and from stocking two books on
Christianity on shelves, because these things could leave students with the
impression that Christianity was officially sanctioned), cert. denied, ___
U.S. ___, 112 S.Ct. 3025, 120 L.Ed.2d 896 (1992).
Secular Humanist teachers and school administrators (who are protected by
the "free exercise" clause of the First Amendment as members of tax-exempt
religious organizations and religious conscientious objectors) are free to
propagate their views in schools, but Christians are not. If Christians
propagate their views, it is an "establishment clause" violation, but not if
Secular Humanists propagate their views.
Secular Humanism is a religion "for free exercise clause purposes," and it
is not a religion "for establishment clause purposes."
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
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Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, {23} And changed the
glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man,
and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.
Romans 1:22-23
--
Artheistfools.com
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.

User: "The Artist currently known as cpt"

Title: Re: Scular Humanism aka atheism is a religion 12 Jul 2004 03:43:46 PM
"The Artist currently known as cpt" <cpt@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:mHCIc.107$So5.27619@news.uswest.net...

Is "Secular Humanism" a "Religion"?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

--

----

John Dewey described Humanism as our "common faith." Julian Huxley
called it "Religion without Revelation." The first Humanist Manifesto

spoke

openly of Humanism as a religion. Many other Humanists could be cited who
have acknowledged that Humanism is a religion. In fact, claiming that
Humanism was "the new religion" was trendy for at least 100 years, perhaps
beginning in 1875 with the publication of The Religion of Humanity by
Octavius Brooks Frothingham (1822-1895), son of the distinguished

Unitarian

clergyman, Nathaniel Langdon Frothingham (1793-1870), pastor of the First
Unitarian Church of Boston, 1815-1850. In the 1950's, Humanists sought and
obtained tax-exempt status as religious organizations. Even the Supreme
Court of the United States spoke in 1961 of Secular Humanism as a

religion.

It was a struggle to get atheism accepted as a religion, but it happened.
From 1962-1980 this was not a controversial issue.
But then Christians began to challenge the "establishment of

religion"

which Secular Humanism in public schools represented. They used the same
tactic Atheists had used to challenge prayer and Bible reading under the
"Establishment Clause" of the First Amendment. Now the ACLU is involved.

Now

the question is controversial. Now Secular Humanists have completely
reversed their strategy, and claim that Humanism is not at all religious,
but is "scientific."

This page examines two issues:

a.. Secular Humanists and Humanistic courts have admitted that
Humanism is a religion.
b.. Why they now claim Humanism is not a religion, in order to

avoid

problems under the "Establishment Clause" of the First Amendment.
For further reading, see R.J. Rushdoony, The Messianic Character of
American Education, chapter 27, "Education as a Religion." He writes,

[T]he state school is a religious institution. As pointed out

in

Intellectual Schizophrenia, the public school is the established church of
today and a substitute institution for the medieval church, dedicated to

the

same monolithic conception of society. Some years ago, Dewey very candidly
discussed "Education as a Religion" (John Dewey, "Education as a

Religion,"

The New Republic, August, 1922, p. 64f.) As Whitehead observed, "The

essence

of education is that it be religious." (Alfred North Whitehead, The Aims

of

Education, NY: Mentor Books, 1952, p. 26)
The public or state schools have thus been inescapably
religious. Their "common faith" has been described as "made up of elements
provided by Rousseau, Jefferson, August Comte, and John Dewey. 'Civil
religion' is an apt designation for this faith." (G.H. Williams, Harvard
Divinity School Bulletin, 1948-1949, p. 41.)



--------------------------------------------------------------------------

--

----

In 1961, the U.S. Supreme Court acknowledged that Secular Humanism was a
religion. Nevertheless, many Humanists deny the significance of the

Court's

assertion. In order to buttress the claim that the identification of

Secular

Humanism as a religion in a footnote in the Torcaso case is more than mere
"dicta," here is a memorandum prepared "[a]t the request of the staff of

the

Committee on Education and Labor" by Congressman John B. Conlan.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------

--

----

The U.S. Supreme Court cited Secular Humanism as a religion in the
1961 case of Torcaso v. Watkins (367 U.S. 488). Roy Torcaso, the

appellant,

a practicing Humanist in Maryland, had refused to declare his belief in
Almighty God, as then required by State law in order for him to be
commissioned as a notary public. The Court held that the requirement for
such an oath "invades appellant's freedom of belief and religion."
The Court declared in Torcaso that the "no establishment" clause of
the First Amendment reached far more than churches of theistic faiths,

that

it is not the business of government or its agents to probe beliefs, and
that therefore its inquiry is concluded by the fact of the profession of
belief. Actually, the Court in Torcaso rested its decision on "free
exercise" grounds, not the "Establishment Clause." Abington v. Schempp,

374

U.S. 203, 264-65 (1962) J. Brennan, concurring.

The Court stated:
We repeat and again reaffirm that neither a State nor the Federal
Government can constitutionally force a person to "profess a belief or
disbelief in any religion." Neither can constitutionally pass laws or

impose

requirements which aid all religions as against non-believers,10 and

neither

can aid those religions based on a belief in the existence of God as

against

those religions founded on different beliefs.11

Footnote 11 concerning "religions founded on different beliefs"
contains the Court's citation of Secular Humanism as a religion. It states
Among religions in this country which do not teach what would
generally be considered a belief in the existence of God are Buddhism,
Taoism, Ethical Culture, Secular Humanism, and others. See Washington
Ethical Society v. District of Columbia, 101 U.S. App. D.C. 371, 249 F.2d
127; Fellowship of Humanity v. County of Alameda, 153 Cal. App. 2d 673,

315

P.2d 394; II Encyclopedia of the Social Sciences 293; 4 Encyclopedia
Britannica (1957 ed.) 325-327; 21 id., at 797; Archer, Faiths Men Live By
(2d ed. revised by Purinton), 120-138, 254-313; 1961 World Almanac 695,

712;

Year Book of American Churches for 1961, at 29, 47.

It is important to note that this citation of Secular Humanism as a
religion is not merely dictum. The Supreme Court refers to the important
1957 case of Washington Ethical Society v. District of Columbia (101 U.S.
App. D.C. 371) in its holding that Secular Humanism is a non-theistic
religion within the meaning of the First Amendment.
The Ethical Culture movement is one denomination of Secular Humanism
which reaches moral and cultural relativism, situation ethics, and attacks
belief in a spiritual God and theistic values of the Old and New

Testaments.

The Washington Ethical Society case involved denial of the Society's
application for tax exemption as a religious organization. The U.S. Court

of

Appeals reversed the Tax Court's ruling, defined the Society as a

religious

organization, and granted its tax exemption.
The Court Stated,
The sole issue raised is whether petitioner falls within the
definition of a "church" or a "religious society" . . . . The taxing
authority urges denial of the tax exemption asserting petitioner is not a
religious society or church and that it does not use its buildings for
religious worship since "religious" and "worship" require a belief in and
teaching of a Supreme Being who controls the universe. The position of the
tax Court, in denying tax exemption, was that belief in and teaching of

the

existence of a Divinity is essential to qualify under the statute. . . .

To

construe exemptions so strictly that unorthodox or minority forms of

worship

would be denied the exemption benefits granted to those conforming to the
majority beliefs might well raise constitutional issues . . . . We hold on
this record and under the controlling statutory language petitioner
qualifies as "a religious corporation or society" . . . .

It is incumbent upon Congress to utilize this broad definition of
religion in all its legislative actions bearing on the support or
non-support of religion, within the context of the "no-establishment"

clause

of the First Amendment.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------

--

----

Other Justices have reflected back on the Torcaso opinion and confirmed

our

analysis.

Justice Scalia wrote:

In Torcaso v. Watkins, 367 U.S. 488, 495, n. 11 (1961), we did indeed
refer to "SECULAR HUMANISM" as a "religio[n]."
Edwards v. Aguillard, 482 U.S. 578 (1987) note 6

Justice Harlan summed it all up:

[Footnote 8] This Court has taken notice of the fact that recognized
"religions" exist that "do not teach what would generally be considered a
belief in the existence of God," Torcaso v. Watkins, 367 U.S. 488, 495 n.
11, e. g., "Buddhism, Taoism, Ethical Culture, SECULAR HUMANISM and

others."

Ibid. See also Washington Ethical Society v. District of Columbia, 101

U.S.

App. D.C. 371, 249 F.2d 127 (1957); 2 Encyclopaedia of the Social Sciences
293; J. Archer, Faiths Men Live By 120-138, 254-313 (2d ed. revised by
Purinton 1958); Stokes & Pfeffer, supra, n. 3, at 560.
Welsh v. United States 398 U.S. 333 (1970) note 8

But many who favor a secularist "separation of church and state" will
contend that fundamentalists invented the idea that Humanism is a

religion.

Like most Americans, these secularists do not understand the legal issues
involved here.

The Humanist-dominated Court is permitting Secular Humanists to have their
cake and eat it too.

Secular Humanism is a religion
"for Free Exercise Clause purposes."
The Court has undeniably defined Secular Humanism as a religion "for free
exercise purposes." When Secular Humanists want the benefits of a

religion,

they get them.

Tax Exemption. Secular Humanism has been granted tax-exempt status as a
religion. The Torcaso quote cited the cases.

Conscientious Objection. Even though Congress originally granted
conscientious objector status only to those who objected to war for
religious reasons (i.e., because of a belief in God), the Supreme Court
turned around and said that Humanists who don't believe in God are
"religious" for C.O. purposes. U.S. v. Seeger, 380 U.S. 163, 183, 85 S.Ct.
850, 13 L.Ed.2d 733, 746 (Holding that belief in a "Supreme Being" is not

a

necessary component of "religion," quoting a Secular Humanist source,

"Thus

the 'God' that we love . . . is . . . humanity.")

So Secular Humanism is emphatically and undeniably a religion -- "for

free

exercise purposes."
Any claim that "the clear weight of the caselaw" is against the

proposition

that Secular Humanism is a religion is a misleading claim. Secular

Humanism

is a religion ("for free exercise clause purposes").

Secular Humanism is Not a religion
"for Establishment Clause purposes."
But when Christians attempt to get the religion of Secular Humanism out of
the government schools, based on the same emotional frame of mind which
atheists had when they went to court against God in schools, then
pro-secularist courts speak out of the other side of their faces and say
that Secular Humanism is NOT a religion "for establishment clause

purposes."

This is slimy deceitful legalism at its worst.

But it explains why so many are confused about whether Secular Humanism is

a

religion.

Here is the rule: When Secular Humanists want the benefits of religion,
Secular Humanism is a religion. When Secular Humanists are challenged for
propagating their religion in public schools, it is not a religion. If

that

sounds insane, it is; but all insane people are still rational. This
insanity is cloaked in the rational-sounding rhetoric of constitutional

law.

Remember:

Secular Humanism is a religion "for free exercise clause purposes," and

it

is not a religion "for establishment clause purposes."

Here's how it works. In Peloza v. Capistrano Unified School Dist., 37 F.3d
517 (9th Cir. 1994), a high school biology teacher tried to balance the
teaching of evolutionism with creationism based on the claim that Secular
Humanism (and its core belief, evolutionism) is a religion. The court
emphatically rejected this claim:

We reject this claim because neither the Supreme Court, nor this

circuit,

has ever held that evolutionism or secular humanism are "religions" for
Establishment Clause purposes. Indeed, both the dictionary definition of
religion and the clear weight of the caselaw5 are to the contrary. The
Supreme Court has held unequivocally that while the belief in a divine
creator of the universe is a religious belief, the scientific theory that
higher forms of life evolved from lower forms is not. Edwards v.

Aguillard,

482 U.S. 578, 107 S.Ct. 2573, 96 L.Ed.2d 510 (1987) (holding
unconstitutional, under Establishment Clause, Louisiana's "Balanced
Treatment for Creation-Science and Evolution-Science in Public School
Instruction Act").

Note 5: See Smith v. Board of School Com'rs of Mobile County, 827 F.2d
684, 690-95 (11th Cir. 1987) (refusing to adopt district court's holding
that "secular humanism" is a religion for Establishment Clause purposes;
deciding case on other grounds); United States v. Allen, 760 F.2d 447,
450-51 (2d Cir. 1985) (quoting Tribe, American Constitutional Law 827-28
(1978), for the proposition that, while "religion" should be broadly
interpreted for Free Exercise Clause purposes, "anything `arguably
non-religious' should not be considered religious in applying the
establishment clause").

Thus a teacher who wants to tell his students about his religious beliefs

is

free to do so if his religion is the religion of Secular Humanism, but may
not tell his students about his religious beliefs if his religion is
Christianity. Christians are not even allowed to discuss Christianity with
students during lunch break, while Secular Humanists are allowed to teach
the tenets of the religion of Secular Humanism from the blackboard during
class.

Peloza alleges the school district ordered him to refrain from

discussing

his religious beliefs with students during "instructional time," and to

tell

any students who attempted to initiate such conversations with him to
consult their parents or clergy. He claims the school district, in the
following official reprimand, defined "instructional time" as any time the
students are on campus, including lunch break and the time before,

between,

and after classes:

You are hereby directed to refrain from any attempt to convert

students

to Christianity or initiating conversations about your religious beliefs
during instructional time, which the District believes includes any time
students are required to be on campus as well as the time students
immediately arrive for the purposes of attending school for instruction,
lunch time, and the time immediately prior to students' departure after

the

instructional day.

Complaint at 16. Peloza seeks a declaration that this definition of
instructional time is too broad, and that he should be allowed to
participate in student-initiated discussions of religious matters when he

is

not actually teaching class.

The school district's interest in avoiding an Establishment Clause
violation trumps Peloza's right to free speech.

While at the high school, whether he is in the classroom or outside of

it

during contract time, Peloza is not just any ordinary citizen. He is a
teacher. He is one of those especially respected persons chosen to teach

in

the high school's classroom. He is clothed with the mantle of one who
imparts knowledge and wisdom. His expressions of opinion are all the more
believable because he is a teacher. The likelihood of high school students
equating his views with those of the school is substantial. To permit him

to

discuss his religious beliefs with students during school time on school
grounds would violate the Establishment Clause of the First Amendment.

Such

speech would not have a secular purpose, would have the primary effect of
advancing religion, and would entangle the school with religion. In sum,

it

would flunk all three parts of the test articulated in Lemon v. Kurtzman,
403 U.S. 602, 91 S.Ct. 2105, 29 L.Ed.2d 745 (1971). See Roberts v.

Madigan,

921 F.2d 1047, 1056-58 (10th Cir. 1990) (teacher could be prohibited from
reading Bible during silent reading period, and from stocking two books on
Christianity on shelves, because these things could leave students with

the

impression that Christianity was officially sanctioned), cert. denied, ___
U.S. ___, 112 S.Ct. 3025, 120 L.Ed.2d 896 (1992).

Secular Humanist teachers and school administrators (who are protected by
the "free exercise" clause of the First Amendment as members of tax-exempt
religious organizations and religious conscientious objectors) are free to
propagate their views in schools, but Christians are not. If Christians
propagate their views, it is an "establishment clause" violation, but not

if

Secular Humanists propagate their views.

Secular Humanism is a religion "for free exercise clause purposes," and

it

is not a religion "for establishment clause purposes."


--------------------------------------------------------------------------

--

----

Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, {23} And changed

the

glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man,
and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.
Romans 1:22-23


--
Artheistfools.com

+------------------------+
| NO PLONKING ZONE |
+------------------------+
| | |
| | | |
..| |.. .| |..
...\| |/.... \| |/..

*Secular*

.

User: "John Ings"

Title: Re: Scular Humanism aka atheism is a religion 12 Jul 2004 04:32:57 PM
On Mon, 12 Jul 2004 13:40:51 -0700, "The Artist currently known as
cpt" <cpt@yahoo.com> wrote:
The originator of the page quoted, and the "Artist" seem to be too
dense to appreciate the difference between secularism, Secular
Humanism and atheism.
Secularism is the view that public education and other matters of
civil policy should be conducted without the introduction of a
religious element.
Secular Humanism is a religion.
Atheism is the lack of belief in a god.
Buddhists are atheists who are also religious, but who are not Secular
Humanists. There are many other atheists who are neither religious nor
Secular Humanists. And secularism in public education and other
matters of civic policy does not require the participants to be either
atheists or Secular Humanists. The devoutly religious, including
prelates, can observe secularism without compromising their faith.
## You're as confused as a termite in a yo-yo
.
User: "Christopher A. Lee"

Title: Re: Scular Humanism aka atheism is a religion 12 Jul 2004 05:23:36 PM
On Mon, 12 Jul 2004 14:32:57 -0700, John Ings <nodamned@spam.org>
wrote:

On Mon, 12 Jul 2004 13:40:51 -0700, "The Artist currently known as
cpt" <cpt@yahoo.com> wrote:

The originator of the page quoted, and the "Artist" seem to be too
dense to appreciate the difference between secularism, Secular
Humanism and atheism.

Secularism is the view that public education and other matters of
civil policy should be conducted without the introduction of a
religious element.

Secular Humanism is a religion.

Actually, it isn't.

Atheism is the lack of belief in a god.

Buddhists are atheists who are also religious, but who are not Secular
Humanists. There are many other atheists who are neither religious nor
Secular Humanists. And secularism in public education and other
matters of civic policy does not require the participants to be either
atheists or Secular Humanists. The devoutly religious, including
prelates, can observe secularism without compromising their faith.

## You're as confused as a termite in a yo-yo

.
User: "John Ings"

Title: Re: Scular Humanism aka atheism is a religion 12 Jul 2004 07:24:37 PM
On Mon, 12 Jul 2004 22:23:36 GMT, Christopher A. Lee
<calee@optonline.net> wrote:

Secular Humanism is a religion.


Actually, it isn't.

Legally it is. It is exempt from taxation as a charitable religious
institution. You can deduct contributions to Secular Humanist
organizations on your income tax. In some cases there have been
marriages and funerals performed under Secular Humanist auspices.
Though a religion, Secular Humanism is not religious. I know that
sounds illogical, but what constitutes religion as we understand the
word (worship, deities, belief in the supernatural) and what the law
considers religion are two different things.
## I was born agnostic, and I'll diagnostic...
.
User: "Emma Pease"

Title: Re: Scular Humanism aka atheism is a religion 12 Jul 2004 07:45:11 PM
In article <bm96f09jmcafpe7mdah2cm7dlm13pbk2v4@4ax.com>, John Ings wrote:

On Mon, 12 Jul 2004 22:23:36 GMT, Christopher A. Lee
<calee@optonline.net> wrote:

Secular Humanism is a religion.


Actually, it isn't.


Legally it is. It is exempt from taxation as a charitable religious
institution. You can deduct contributions to Secular Humanist
organizations on your income tax. In some cases there have been
marriages and funerals performed under Secular Humanist auspices.

Though a religion, Secular Humanism is not religious. I know that
sounds illogical, but what constitutes religion as we understand the
word (worship, deities, belief in the supernatural) and what the law
considers religion are two different things.

Note that in this context "Secular Humanism" is a name of a specific
organization (see http://www.secularhumanism.org/) and not a catchall
term to describe all or even most atheists. Personally I would
consider it a religion but then I have no trouble with having
non-theistic, non-supernatural religions. Other non-theistic,
non-supernatural religions include
Ethical Culture http://www.aeu.org/
British Humanist Association http://www.humanism.org.uk/
I'm sure others can continue the list.
Emma
--
\----
|\* | Emma Pease Net Spinster
|_\/ Die Luft der Freiheit weht
.
User: "Emma Goldwoman"

Title: Re: Scular Humanism aka atheism is a religion 13 Jul 2004 10:15:25 AM
Emma Pease <emma@kanpai.stanford.edu> wrote in message news:<slrncf6c42.fpr.emma@munin.Stanford.EDU>...

Note that in this context "Secular Humanism" is a name of a specific
organization (see http://www.secularhumanism.org/)

In any context, "Secular Humanism" is not a name of a specific
organization.
Go to the website you provide and you will see the specific
organization's name.
<snip>

British Humanist Association http://www.humanism.org.uk/

Does this organization purport to be "a religion" or a "religious
organization"?

I'm sure others can continue the list.

I think some flavors of Buddhism are non-theistic.
The American Humanist Association has a religion exemption
designation though it used to be eductional, I think. It may change
back. Seems even folks involved in the organization were not even
aware this was the case, and don't like it very much.
.

User: "Carol Lee Smith"

Title: Re: Scular Humanism aka atheism is a religion 12 Jul 2004 10:56:09 PM
On Tue, 13 Jul 2004, Emma Pease wrote:

In article <bm96f09jmcafpe7mdah2cm7dlm13pbk2v4@4ax.com>, John Ings wrote:

On Mon, 12 Jul 2004 22:23:36 GMT, Christopher A. Lee
<calee@optonline.net> wrote:

Secular Humanism is a religion.

Actually, it isn't.

Legally it is. It is exempt from taxation as a charitable religious
institution. You can deduct contributions to Secular Humanist
organizations on your income tax. In some cases there have been
marriages and funerals performed under Secular Humanist auspices.
Though a religion, Secular Humanism is not religious. I know that
sounds illogical, but what constitutes religion as we understand the
word (worship, deities, belief in the supernatural) and what the law
considers religion are two different things.

Note that in this context "Secular Humanism" is a name of a specific
organization (see http://www.secularhumanism.org/)

Well, actually, that web site is the site of the Council for Secular
Humanism. That is the specific name of the specific organization. The
name of the organization is not "Secular Humanism."
Now if you follow their links, this
http://www.secularhumanism.org/intro/what.html tells what "secular
humanism" is. Or you could get one of Paul Kurtz's books from your local
library or interlibrary loan.

and not a catchall term to describe all or even most atheists.

That may be so.

Personally I would
consider it a religion but then I have no trouble with having
non-theistic, non-supernatural religions. Other non-theistic,
non-supernatural religions include
Ethical Culture http://www.aeu.org/

Yes. Ethical Culture is a non-theistic religion. I attended an annual
convention when the E.C. event was run concurrently with the AHA event,
and talked about this with many E.Culturists. Even among the E.C. there
is a difference of opinion about the value of E.C. being classified as a
religion. The don't all agree it is a good idea.

British Humanist Association http://www.humanism.org.uk/

The British Humanist Association is a "registered charity," but I don't
see in their info anything which claims it the BHA is a religion.

I'm sure others can continue the list.

" ... the real difference between liberals and conservatives in this
country is that conservatives think sex is very, very important and
liberals think sex is essentially trivial. ... " --Jane Haddam
http://www.janehaddam.com/chd/sex.html

.


User: "Gregory Gadow"

Title: Re: Scular Humanism aka atheism is a religion 13 Jul 2004 08:08:41 AM
John Ings wrote:

On Mon, 12 Jul 2004 22:23:36 GMT, Christopher A. Lee
<calee@optonline.net> wrote:

Secular Humanism is a religion.


Actually, it isn't.


Legally it is. It is exempt from taxation as a charitable religious
institution.

There is no category of "charitable religious institution." There are
recognized non-profits that are organized around religious principles,
just as there are recognized non-profits that are organized for mutual
aid, education and ecological conservation.

You can deduct contributions to Secular Humanist
organizations on your income tax.

I can also deduct contributions to the public library system. That does
not make the public library system a religious institution.

In some cases there have been
marriages and funerals performed under Secular Humanist auspices.

Many more marriages are performed under the auspices of county and state
judicial systems. Does that therefore prove that the court system is a
religious institution?

Though a religion, Secular Humanism is not religious.

There is no "recognition" of secular humanism as a religion.
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/sec-hum3.htm
Technically speaking, there are NO "recognized" religions in the United
States; the Constitution forbids it.

I know that
sounds illogical, but what constitutes religion as we understand the
word (worship, deities, belief in the supernatural) and what the law
considers religion are two different things.

The law is prohibited from considering religion, period.
--
Gregory Gadow
techbear@serv.net
http://www.serv.net/~techbear
"Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the
bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is
tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists
for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to greater danger."
-- Herman Goering, http://www.snopes.com/quotes/goering.htm
.

User: "Christopher A. Lee"

Title: Re: Scular Humanism aka atheism is a religion 13 Jul 2004 02:14:34 AM
On Mon, 12 Jul 2004 17:24:37 -0700, John Ings <nodamned@spam.org>
wrote:

On Mon, 12 Jul 2004 22:23:36 GMT, Christopher A. Lee
<calee@optonline.net> wrote:

Secular Humanism is a religion.


Actually, it isn't.


Legally it is. It is exempt from taxation as a charitable religious
institution. You can deduct contributions to Secular Humanist
organizations on your income tax. In some cases there have been
marriages and funerals performed under Secular Humanist auspices.

No. Legally it isn't.
http://www.secularhumanism.org/library/fi/cherry_18_1.01.html
In the 1961 Torcaso v. Watkins decision, Justice Hugo Black commented
in a footnote, "Among religions in this country which do not teach
what would generally be considered a belief in the existence of God
are Buddhism, Taoism, Ethical Culture, Secular Humanism, and others."
Such footnotes, known as "dicta," are written to provide factual
background to the legal principles in a decision. These dicta never
have the force of law. They are merely comments.
The claim that secular humanism can be considered a religion for legal
purposes was finally considered by the Ninth Circuit Court of Appeals
in the case of Peloza v. Capistrano School District. In this 1994
case, a science teacher argued that, by requiring him to teach
evolution, his school district was forcing him to teach the "religion"
of secular humanism. The Court responded, "We reject this claim
because neither the Supreme Court, nor this circuit, has ever held
that evolutionism or secular humanism are `religions' for
Establishment Clause purposes." The Supreme Court refused to review
the case; they refused to reverse a ruling that secular humanism is
not a religion

Though a religion, Secular Humanism is not religious. I know that
sounds illogical, but what constitutes religion as we understand the
word (worship, deities, belief in the supernatural) and what the law
considers religion are two different things.

## I was born agnostic, and I'll diagnostic...


.
User: "John Ings"

Title: Re: Scular Humanism aka atheism is a religion 13 Jul 2004 08:26:02 AM
On Tue, 13 Jul 2004 07:14:34 GMT, Christopher A. Lee
<calee@optonline.net> wrote:

The Court responded, "We reject this claim
because neither the Supreme Court, nor this circuit, has ever held
that evolutionism or secular humanism are `religions' for
Establishment Clause purposes."

The issue was tax purposes.
See my post to Carol.
## My own mind is my own church.
Thomas Paine
.


User: "Carol Lee Smith"

Title: Re: Scular Humanism aka atheism is a religion 12 Jul 2004 10:42:41 PM
On Mon, 12 Jul 2004, John Ings wrote:

On Mon, 12 Jul 2004 22:23:36 GMT, Christopher A. Lee
<calee@optonline.net> wrote:

Secular Humanism is a religion.

Actually, it isn't.

Legally it is. It is exempt from taxation as a charitable religious
institution.

That is not true. The tax exemption for the Council for Secular Humanism
is an educational exemption.

You can deduct contributions to Secular Humanist
organizations on your income tax. In some cases there have been
marriages and funerals performed under Secular Humanist auspices.

So? There have been marriages performed under civic auspices. Justices
of the Peace and Judges perform marriages. Does that make the Justice
system a religion or religious in nature?

Though a religion, Secular Humanism is not religious.

Do you happen to know the difference between secular and sectarian?
If you did, perhaps you wouldn't say something so dumb.

I know that sounds illogical, but what constitutes religion as
we understand the word (worship, deities, belief in the supernatural)
and what the law considers religion are two different things.

The law doesn't consider secular humanism a religion.

## I was born agnostic, and I'll diagnostic...

We were all born without knowledge. We were all born agnostic.
" ... the real difference between liberals and conservatives in this
country is that conservatives think sex is very, very important and
liberals think sex is essentially trivial. ... " --Jane Haddam
http://www.janehaddam.com/chd/sex.html

.
User: "John Ings"

Title: Re: Scular Humanism aka atheism is a religion 12 Jul 2004 11:13:09 PM
On Mon, 12 Jul 2004 22:42:41 -0500, Carol Lee Smith
<human@csd.uwm.edu> wrote:

Secular Humanism is a religion.


Actually, it isn't.


Legally it is. It is exempt from taxation as a charitable religious
institution.


That is not true. The tax exemption for the Council for Secular Humanism
is an educational exemption.

There's more to Secular Humanism than that Council.

Though a religion, Secular Humanism is not religious.


Do you happen to know the difference between secular and sectarian?

Yes. A sect can be any group, party, or faction united by a specific
doctrine or under a doctrinal leader. The doctrine doesn't have to be
a religious doctrine.

If you did, perhaps you wouldn't say something so dumb.

Explain.

I know that sounds illogical, but what constitutes religion as
we understand the word (worship, deities, belief in the supernatural)
and what the law considers religion are two different things.


The law doesn't consider secular humanism a religion.

See the precedents cited in the post that started this thread.

## I was born agnostic, and I'll diagnostic...


We were all born without knowledge. We were all born agnostic.

Ignorance isn't agnosticism.
Here is what agnosticism is, as defined by the man who coined the
word:
"In matters of intellect, follow your reason as far as it will take
you, without regard to any other consideration. And negatively:
In matters of intellect, do not pretend that conclusions are certain
which are not demonstrated or demonstrable." Thomas Huxley
Note that this is an admonishment that does not specifically mention
religion either.
## Liberalism is trust of the people tempered by prudence;
## Conservatism is distrust of the people tempered by fear.
Gladstone
.
User: "Carol Lee Smith"

Title: Re: Scular Humanism aka atheism is a religion 13 Jul 2004 01:16:59 AM
On Mon, 12 Jul 2004, John Ings wrote:

On Mon, 12 Jul 2004 22:42:41 -0500, Carol Lee Smith
<human@csd.uwm.edu> wrote:

Secular Humanism is a religion.

Actually, it isn't.

Legally it is. It is exempt from taxation as a charitable religious
institution.

That is not true. The tax exemption for the Council for Secular Humanism
is an educational exemption.

There's more to Secular Humanism than that Council.

No one suggested there wasn't more to Secular Humanism than that Council.
A categorical claim was made that secular humanism is exempt from taxation
as a charitable religious institution. I was pointing out that is not
true.

Though a religion, Secular Humanism is not religious.

Do you happen to know the difference between secular and sectarian?

Yes. A sect can be any group, party, or faction united by a specific
doctrine or under a doctrinal leader. The doctrine doesn't have to be
a religious doctrine.

I was using the definition of secular meaning of or relating to the
worldly or temporal; not overtly or specifically religious and sectarian
as pertain to religious sects. In a discussion of whether secular
humanism is religious as compared to religious humanism I think that is
appropriate.

If you did, perhaps you wouldn't say something so dumb.

Explain.

I tried to.

I know that sounds illogical, but what constitutes religion as
we understand the word (worship, deities, belief in the supernatural)
and what the law considers religion are two different things.

The law doesn't consider secular humanism a religion.

See the precedents cited in the post that started this thread.

OK. I went back and found the originating post. That has been posted so
much on usenet and there have been other threads pointing out all of the
errors in it.
That crap about the Torcaso decision is bunkum.
The reference to secular humanism in Torcaso
-----begin excerpt-----
appears in a footnote.
Whether or not secular humanism was or was not a religion was not the
issue in Torcaso. However, the 11th Cir. Court of Appeals in Smith v. Bd.
of Comm. of Alabama (1987) held:
"The Supreme Court has never established a comprehensive test for
determining the "delicate question" of what constitutes a religious belief
for purposes of the first amendment, and we need not attempt to do so in
this case, for we find that, even assuming that secular humanism is a
religion for purposes of the establishment clause, Appellees have failed
to prove a violation of the establishment clause through the use in the
Alabama public schools of the textbook at issue in this case."
-----end of excerpt-----
http://candst.tripod.com/sec-hum.htm
I consider the information at this website to be dependable:
http://search.atomz.com/search/?sp-q=torcaso+secular+humanism&sp-a=sp1001b611&sp-advanced=1&sp-p=all&sp-w-control=1&sp-w=alike&sp-c=10&sp-m=1&sp-s=0
And the Rushdoony perspective is dangerous.
.
User: "John Ings"

Title: Re: Scular Humanism aka atheism is a religion 13 Jul 2004 08:23:12 AM
On Tue, 13 Jul 2004 01:16:59 -0500, Carol Lee Smith
<human@csd.uwm.edu> wrote:

Secular Humanism is a religion.


Actually, it isn't.


Legally it is. It is exempt from taxation as a charitable religious
institution.


That is not true. The tax exemption for the Council for Secular Humanism
is an educational exemption.


There's more to Secular Humanism than that Council.


No one suggested there wasn't more to Secular Humanism than that Council.

A categorical claim was made that secular humanism is exempt from taxation
as a charitable religious institution. I was pointing out that is not
true.

A partial excerpt from Publication 78, US IRS list of Exempt
Organizations.
Arizona Secular Humanists Inc
Council for Secular Humanism Inc
New Orleans Secular Humanist Association Inc.
Secular Humanist Society of New York Inc.
Secular Humanists of the East Bay
Washington Area Secular Humanists Inc. Wash

Though a religion, Secular Humanism is not religious.


Do you happen to know the difference between secular and sectarian?


Yes. A sect can be any group, party, or faction united by a specific
doctrine or under a doctrinal leader. The doctrine doesn't have to be
a religious doctrine.


I was using the definition of secular meaning of or relating to the
worldly or temporal; not overtly or specifically religious and sectarian
as pertain to religious sects. In a discussion of whether secular
humanism is religious as compared to religious humanism I think that is
appropriate.

Where does sectarianism enter into the question at all?

If you did, perhaps you wouldn't say something so dumb.


Explain.


I tried to.

You didn't do very well.

I know that sounds illogical, but what constitutes religion as
we understand the word (worship, deities, belief in the supernatural)
and what the law considers religion are two different things.


The law doesn't consider secular humanism a religion.

[...]

I consider the information at this website to be dependable:

http://search.atomz.com/search/?sp-q=torcaso+secular+humanism&sp-a=sp1001b611&sp-advanced=1&sp-p=all&sp-w-control=1&sp-w=alike&sp-c=10&sp-m=1&sp-s=0

And the Rushdoony perspective is dangerous.

Yes, I can see why, if the fundamentalist crowd are trying to equate
secularism in the schools with Secular Humanism, which are two
different things. It's unfortunate that Secular Humanism, in
accepting some of the legal advantages of being seen as a 'religion',
has left itself open to such propaganda. Heck, as an atheist I've been
accused of having a religion and even of being a 'fundamentalist'.
Perfectly ordinary descriptive appelations, in the course of an
extended controversy, become expletives. Just look what's happened to
the word 'liberal'!
So I can see why you're touchy on the subject...
## Religentem esse oportet; religiosum nefas.
.
User: "Emma Goldwoman"

Title: Re: Scular Humanism aka atheism is a religion 13 Jul 2004 05:46:32 PM
John Ings <nodamned@spam.org> wrote in message news:<8ul7f0tktb4id4n650t72ur4plaulimdco@4ax.com>...

On Tue, 13 Jul 2004 01:16:59 -0500, Carol Lee Smith
<human@csd.uwm.edu> wrote:

Secular Humanism is a religion.


Actually, it isn't.


Legally it is. It is exempt from taxation as a charitable religious
institution.


That is not true. The tax exemption for the Council for Secular Humanism
is an educational exemption.


There's more to Secular Humanism than that Council.


No one suggested there wasn't more to Secular Humanism than that Council.

A categorical claim was made that secular humanism is exempt from taxation
as a charitable religious institution. I was pointing out that is not
true.


A partial excerpt from Publication 78, US IRS list of Exempt
Organizations.

Does Pub. 78 indicate whether the exemption is religious or
educational?
CSH's exemption is educational.
I am willing to bet that the exemptions of the others in the list
are also educational exemptions, unlike that of AHA.


Arizona Secular Humanists Inc
Council for Secular Humanism Inc
New Orleans Secular Humanist Association Inc.
Secular Humanist Society of New York Inc.
Secular Humanists of the East Bay
Washington Area Secular Humanists Inc. Wash

Though a religion, Secular Humanism is not religious.


Do you happen to know the difference between secular and sectarian?


Yes. A sect can be any group, party, or faction united by a specific
doctrine or under a doctrinal leader. The doctrine doesn't have to be
a religious doctrine.


I was using the definition of secular meaning of or relating to the
worldly or temporal; not overtly or specifically religious and sectarian
as pertain to religious sects. In a discussion of whether secular
humanism is religious as compared to religious humanism I think that is
appropriate.


Where does sectarianism enter into the question at all?

If you did, perhaps you wouldn't say something so dumb.


Explain.


I tried to.


You didn't do very well.

I know that sounds illogical, but what constitutes religion as
we understand the word (worship, deities, belief in the supernatural)
and what the law considers religion are two different things.


The law doesn't consider secular humanism a religion.

[...]

I consider the information at this website to be dependable:

http://search.atomz.com/search/?sp-q=torcaso+secular+humanism&sp-a=sp1001b611&sp-advanced=1&sp-p=all&sp-w-control=1&sp-w=alike&sp-c=10&sp-m=1&sp-s=0

And the Rushdoony perspective is dangerous.


Yes, I can see why, if the fundamentalist crowd are trying to equate
secularism in the schools with Secular Humanism, which are two
different things. It's unfortunate that Secular Humanism, in
accepting some of the legal advantages of being seen as a 'religion',
has left itself open to such propaganda.

Do you think having an education exemption can be interpreted as
accepting some of the legal advantages of being seen as a 'religion'?
I don't.
However, I do think that a humanist organization having a
religious exemption could be interpreted as problematic.

Heck, as an atheist I've been
accused of having a religion and even of being a 'fundamentalist'.
Perfectly ordinary descriptive appelations, in the course of an
extended controversy, become expletives. Just look what's happened to
the word 'liberal'!

So I can see why you're touchy on the subject...

Touchy?
We must have very different interpretations of what is touchy.
.

User: "Christopher A. Lee"

Title: Re: Scular Humanism aka atheism is a religion 13 Jul 2004 06:45:45 PM
On Tue, 13 Jul 2004 06:23:12 -0700, John Ings <nodamned@spam.org>
wrote:

On Tue, 13 Jul 2004 01:16:59 -0500, Carol Lee Smith
<human@csd.uwm.edu> wrote:

Secular Humanism is a religion.


Actually, it isn't.


Legally it is. It is exempt from taxation as a charitable religious
institution.


That is not true. The tax exemption for the Council for Secular Humanism
is an educational exemption.


There's more to Secular Humanism than that Council.


No one suggested there wasn't more to Secular Humanism than that Council.

A categorical claim was made that secular humanism is exempt from taxation
as a charitable religious institution. I was pointing out that is not
true.


A partial excerpt from Publication 78, US IRS list of Exempt
Organizations.

Arizona Secular Humanists Inc
Council for Secular Humanism Inc
New Orleans Secular Humanist Association Inc.
Secular Humanist Society of New York Inc.
Secular Humanists of the East Bay
Washington Area Secular Humanists Inc. Wash

What did they get their exemption for?
But so is the historical railroad society I'm member of, that has
restored a famous local railroad station (a National Historic
Landmark) and turned it into a museum that is part of the local
Roosevelt connection.
Does this mean that is a religion too?
.
User: "Mark K. Bilbo"

Title: Re: Scular Humanism aka atheism is a religion 14 Jul 2004 07:45:02 AM
On Tue, 13 Jul 2004 23:45:45 +0000 in episode
<o1s8f0t9aargs9c8047h878eksiociv7ri@4ax.com> we saw our hero Christopher
A. Lee <calee@optonline.net>:

On Tue, 13 Jul 2004 06:23:12 -0700, John Ings <nodamned@spam.org> wrote:

On Tue, 13 Jul 2004 01:16:59 -0500, Carol Lee Smith <human@csd.uwm.edu>
wrote:

Secular Humanism is a religion.


Actually, it isn't.


Legally it is. It is exempt from taxation as a charitable religious
institution.


That is not true. The tax exemption for the Council for Secular
Humanism is an educational exemption.


There's more to Secular Humanism than that Council.


No one suggested there wasn't more to Secular Humanism than that
Council.

A categorical claim was made that secular humanism is exempt from
taxation as a charitable religious institution. I was pointing out that
is not true.


A partial excerpt from Publication 78, US IRS list of Exempt
Organizations.

Arizona Secular Humanists Inc
Council for Secular Humanism Inc
New Orleans Secular Humanist Association Inc. Secular Humanist Society of
New York Inc. Secular Humanists of the East Bay
Washington Area Secular Humanists Inc. Wash


What did they get their exemption for?

But so is the historical railroad society I'm member of, that has restored
a famous local railroad station (a National Historic Landmark) and turned
it into a museum that is part of the local Roosevelt connection.

Does this mean that is a religion too?

I just did a quick check and "WASH" (Washington Area Secular Humanists
Inc.), for example, is:
"...a nonprofit 501(c)(3) educational organization in Maryland."
So, yes, they are exempt. 501(c)(3) organizations *are. That's the point
of organizing a non-profit as one...
Here's an interesting one. I couldn't find a website for the Arizona
Secular Humanists, Inc. but the Phoenix group is here:
http://www.hsgp.org/
And they are:
"...a non-religious, educational and philosophical organization."
I can't seem to find any that are organized as religious organizations...
--
Mark K. Bilbo - a.a. #1423
EAC Department of Linguistic Subversion
Alt-atheism website at: http://www.alt-atheism.org
--------------------------------------------------
There is no system but GNU, and Linux is one of its kernels.
.








User: "JPG"

Title: Re: Scular Humanism aka atheism is a religion 13 Jul 2004 02:42:01 AM
On Mon, 12 Jul 2004 14:32:57 -0700, John Ings <nodamned@spam.org> wrote:

On Mon, 12 Jul 2004 13:40:51 -0700, "The Artist currently known as
cpt" <cpt@yahoo.com> wrote:

The originator of the page quoted, and the "Artist" seem to be too
dense to appreciate the difference between secularism, Secular
Humanism and atheism.

Secularism is the view that public education and other matters of
civil policy should be conducted without the introduction of a
religious element.

Secular Humanism is a religion.

_____________________
http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=religion
7 entries found for religion.
re·li·gion ( P ) Pronunciation Key (r-ljn)
n.
1.
1. Belief in and reverence for a supernatural power or powers regarded
as creator and governor of the universe.
2. A personal or institutionalized system grounded in such belief and
worship.
2. The life or condition of a person in a religious order.
3. A set of beliefs, values, and practices based on the teachings of a
spiritual leader.
4. A cause, principle, or activity pursued with zeal or conscientious
devotion.
____________________
I don't think so.
JPG


Atheism is the lack of belief in a god.

Buddhists are atheists who are also religious, but who are not Secular
Humanists. There are many other atheists who are neither religious nor
Secular Humanists. And secularism in public education and other
matters of civic policy does not require the participants to be either
atheists or Secular Humanists. The devoutly religious, including
prelates, can observe secularism without compromising their faith.

## You're as confused as a termite in a yo-yo

.
User: "John Ings"

Title: Re: Scular Humanism aka atheism is a religion 13 Jul 2004 08:44:56 AM
On Tue, 13 Jul 2004 08:42:01 +0100, JPG <me@privacy.net> wrote:

Secularism is the view that public education and other matters of
civil policy should be conducted without the introduction of a
religious element.

Secular Humanism is a religion.

_____________________
http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=religion


7 entries found for religion.
re·li·gion ( P ) Pronunciation Key (r-ljn)
n.

1.
1. Belief in and reverence for a supernatural power or powers regarded
as creator and governor of the universe.
2. A personal or institutionalized system grounded in such belief and
worship.
2. The life or condition of a person in a religious order.
3. A set of beliefs, values, and practices based on the teachings of a
spiritual leader.
4. A cause, principle, or activity pursued with zeal or conscientious
devotion.
____________________

I don't think so.

See #4
Also, from my dictionary (Random House Webster's)
2 a specific fundamental set of beliefs and practices generally agreed
upon by a number of persons or sects:
6. something one believes in and follows devotedly; a point or
matter of ethics or conscience:
There is a difference between religion as a sincerely held belief and
religion involving the worship of supernatural entities. There is also
a difference between 'religion' as a legal status and 'religion' as a
belief in deities.
As an atheist I have frequently been accused by the devout as having a
religion, and though i regard such an appelation as disingenous
--because it implies something to the average reader that isn't
there-- I cannot deny it. Any sincerely held belief is a religion.
Being a Republican or a Democrat can be a religion if you're fanatical
enough about it. Heck, with some folks cheering for the Chicago Cubs
is a religion!
## Religions are born and may die, but superstition is immortal
.
User: "Emma Goldwoman"

Title: Re: Scular Humanism aka atheism is a religion 13 Jul 2004 05:52:37 PM
John Ings <nodamned@spam.org> wrote in message news:<too7f0pdj7vuhh7tflovbk8jrfrqnll3st@4ax.com>...

As an atheist I have frequently been accused by the devout as having a
religion, and though i regard such an appelation as disingenous
--because it implies something to the average reader that isn't
there-- I cannot deny it. Any sincerely held belief is a religion.
Being a Republican or a Democrat can be a religion if you're fanatical
enough about it. Heck, with some folks cheering for the Chicago Cubs
is a religion!

Does that mean they can deduct the cost of their season tickets?
the sacraments (beer and brats, peanuts, hot pretzels)?
If golf is my religion, can I deduct my greens fees?
.
User: "John Ings"

Title: Re: Scular Humanism aka atheism is a religion 13 Jul 2004 06:44:13 PM
On 13 Jul 2004 15:52:37 -0700,
(Emma Goldwoman)
wrote:

John Ings <nodamned@spam.org> wrote in message news:<too7f0pdj7vuhh7tflovbk8jrfrqnll3st@4ax.com>...
If golf is my religion, can I deduct my greens fees?

If someone runs a golf school, can you deduct donations on the basis
they are an educational institution?
## Enter 3% of line 24, or 81% of line 6 minus your dog's age.
.

User: "Mark K. Bilbo"

Title: Re: Scular Humanism aka atheism is a religion 14 Jul 2004 07:34:13 AM
On Tue, 13 Jul 2004 15:52:37 -0700 in episode
<6325640b.0407131452.5e921a0f@posting.google.com> we saw our hero
humanist1@juno.com (Emma Goldwoman):

John Ings <nodamned@spam.org> wrote in message
news:<too7f0pdj7vuhh7tflovbk8jrfrqnll3st@4ax.com>...

As an atheist I have frequently been accused by the devout as having a
religion, and though i regard such an appelation as disingenous
--because it implies something to the average reader that isn't there--
I cannot deny it. Any sincerely held belief is a religion. Being a
Republican or a Democrat can be a religion if you're fanatical enough
about it. Heck, with some folks cheering for the Chicago Cubs is a
religion!


Does that mean they can deduct the cost of their season tickets?
the sacraments (beer and brats, peanuts, hot pretzels)?

If golf is my religion, can I deduct my greens fees?

Shouldn't golf courses be exempt from taxes?
--
Mark K. Bilbo - a.a. #1423
EAC Department of Linguistic Subversion
Alt-atheism website at: http://www.alt-atheism.org
--------------------------------------------------
There is no system but GNU, and Linux is one of its kernels.
.


User: "Mark K. Bilbo"

Title: Re: Scular Humanism aka atheism is a religion 14 Jul 2004 07:33:29 AM
On Tue, 13 Jul 2004 06:44:56 -0700 in episode
<too7f0pdj7vuhh7tflovbk8jrfrqnll3st@4ax.com> we saw our hero John Ings
<nodamned@spam.org>:

Any sincerely held belief is a religion.

If you define it that way, humanism could be a religion. But that rather
dilutes the meaning of the word to uselessness...
--
Mark K. Bilbo - a.a. #1423
EAC Department of Linguistic Subversion
Alt-atheism website at: http://www.alt-atheism.org
--------------------------------------------------
There is no system but GNU, and Linux is one of its kernels.
.
User: "Christopher A. Lee"

Title: Re: Scular Humanism aka atheism is a religion 14 Jul 2004 08:10:33 AM
On Wed, 14 Jul 2004 07:33:29 -0500, "Mark K. Bilbo"
<alt-atheism@org.webmaster> wrote:

On Tue, 13 Jul 2004 06:44:56 -0700 in episode
<too7f0pdj7vuhh7tflovbk8jrfrqnll3st@4ax.com> we saw our hero John Ings
<nodamned@spam.org>:

Any sincerely held belief is a religion.


If you define it that way, humanism could be a religion. But that rather
dilutes the meaning of the word to uselessness...

Which makes me wonder why he wants to do that - and why he expects
everybody else to use words whose meanings have been diluted so they
no longer carry useful information any more, instead of those that do.
.


User: "Christopher A. Lee"

Title: Re: Scular Humanism aka atheism is a religion 13 Jul 2004 06:45:46 PM
On Tue, 13 Jul 2004 06:44:56 -0700, John Ings <nodamned@spam.org>
wrote:


There is a difference between religion as a sincerely held belief and
religion involving the worship of supernatural entities. There is also
a difference between 'religion' as a legal status and 'religion' as a
belief in deities.

As an atheist I have frequently been accused by the devout as having a
religion, and though i regard such an appelation as disingenous
--because it implies something to the average reader that isn't
there-- I cannot deny it. Any sincerely held belief is a religion.

Only if you are dishonest and imagine the metaphoric "baseball is his
religion" subsidiary definition means it actually is a religion.
We're used to dishonest fundamentalists doing this, but not a
dishonest atheist.
*S*O*M*E* (do you know what that word means?) sincerely held beliefs
are religions. I believe Stella loves me as much as I love her. Is
that a religion?

Being a Republican or a Democrat can be a religion if you're fanatical
enough about it. Heck, with some folks cheering for the Chicago Cubs
is a religion!

Only if you expand the scope of the word until it no longer as any
meaning. Usually in order to equivocate.

## Religions are born and may die, but superstition is immortal

.
User: "John Ings"

Title: Re: Scular Humanism aka atheism is a religion 13 Jul 2004 08:22:42 PM
On Tue, 13 Jul 2004 23:45:46 GMT, Christopher A. Lee
<calee@optonline.net> wrote:

As an atheist I have frequently been accused by the devout as having a
religion, and though i regard such an appelation as disingenous
--because it implies something to the average reader that isn't
there-- I cannot deny it. Any sincerely held belief is a religion.


Only if you are dishonest and imagine the metaphoric "baseball is his
religion" subsidiary definition means it actually is a religion.

I SAID I found it disingenous.

We're used to dishonest fundamentalists doing this, but not a
dishonest atheist.

Where have I done it?

*S*O*M*E* (do you know what that word means?) sincerely held beliefs
are religions. I believe Stella loves me as much as I love her. Is
that a religion?

Technically.

Being a Republican or a Democrat can be a religion if you're fanatical
enough about it. Heck, with some folks cheering for the Chicago Cubs
is a religion!


Only if you expand the scope of the word until it no longer as any
meaning.

No, they're technically within the meaning of the word. That's what's
so galling about it. It IS dishonest and misleading. It IS making use
of a loaded word in the style of the propagandist. But it's not
erroneous.

Usually in order to equivocate.

Precisely. But that's the most we can charge them with.
## Every woman should marry, and no man.
Disraeli
.