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Religions > Atheism |
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| Date: |
28 Apr 2005 07:09:43 AM |
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Search for Christian America |
Search for Christian America
by Mark A. Noll, George M. Marsden, Nathan O. Hatch
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0939443155/102-8446960-4491348?v=g\lance
For every American Christian, and every Christian American:, October
21, 2001
Reviewer: Jedidiah Palosaari "Not My Real Name" (Dar Baida-Casablanca,
Morocco) - See all my reviews
(TOP 1000 REVIEWER) (REAL NAME)
A fascinating look at the truly history of Christianity and the
American state. The authors present a very well-researched treatise on
how our nation has never been a Christian nation- both because such a
nation is impossible, and because we have never been truly a Christian
people. But the authors don't present there case too extremely- they
strongly promote and welcome the idea of America having been
influenced substantially by Christians and Christian thinking. Of
particular interest was the chapter on the American Rebellion and
Revolution, in which they point out only four of the founding fathers-
John Jay, John Witherspoon, Roger Sherman, and Patrick Henry- were
what we would consider evangelical today, and even they were not
putting Christ first in their theology at all times. The vast majority
of the rest were of course Deist.
Though these ideas may seem radical to some readers, Noll et.al.
presents a great deal of evidence to back up the work, including
references to more scholarly work on the their part and a very helpful
and informative bibliographic essay at the end. The text is designed
for the general public, so is not cluttered with difficult theological
or political concepts, or copious notes.
After reading this, I found I could not consider myself "proud to be
an American". Not that America is evil. Noll et.al. show clearly that
there is a bit of God and a bit of satan in American history and
culture, as there is in every society. But the clear presentation of
how far America has been from the ideals of the gospel, and how often
this gets covered up, was astounding. I am proud of the good parts-
the God parts. But, if I once could, I can not now look at the history
any longer and see it as something specially greater than that of
other histories and other nations.
************************************************************************************
De-myths the Golden Age of American Christianity, February 2, 2001
Reviewer: Rod Z "rodboomboom" (Dearborn, Michigan United States) - See
all my reviews
(TOP 50 REVIEWER)
I remember my seminary class on the History of American Christianity
and the professor stating that the fundamentalist view that American
was founded and needs to return to her Christian roots is fraught with
significant historical errors made me ponder who was telling the truth
here?
When I asked him for help, he did the right thing: said, go and look
at the evidence yourself: primary historical documents. Giving me some
good ones, I soon discovered that not all what the fundies have been
telling is the story. Things taken out of context, paraphrased, others
overlooked paints an unrealistic, unhistorical view of what they say
is "the golden age of American Christianity."
These three prominent Christian historians in this book give great
summary of this historical evidence in this book. What harm is done
you ask? This book so aptly demonstrates that this distorts our
dialogue over current public issues by incorrectly presenting American
history.
They carefully expound the dangers of treating the naturalistic ideals
of the founders on par with Scipture and likewise a lack of
discernment between God's people and worldly culture.
This book is a short, precise and articulate presentation against the
overdramatization of our founding history which zealouts then use to
bully both those inside and outside the faith for Godly purposes.
Higly recommended.
************************************************************************************
Almost as timely now as it was then, March 16, 2005
Reviewer: Dr. Holton "Dr. Holton" (Lakeland, FL United States) - See
all my reviews
This book is a necessary edition for the Christian seeking a balanced,
objective view of American history. The authors firmly establish
Christianity's influence in the past without sentimentalizing or
idolizing it, yet pay due (and accurate) respect to where Christianity
and Christians have influenced history and may continue to influence
American society.
The book has held up well since its initial 1980s publication, but
recent events cry out for an updated edition.
********************************************************************************
Unusual and Effective Polemic, February 25, 2005
Reviewer: R. Albin (Ann Arbor, Michigan United States) - See all my
reviews
(TOP 500 REVIEWER) (REAL NAME)
This very interesting book is aimed at evangelical Christians but can
be read profitably by individuals of any faith, including those who
lack religous faith. The 3 authors are all distinguished historians of
American religion and also committed evangelical Christians. The goal
of this polemic is to rebut ideas popular among evangelicals that the
USA was founded as "Christian Nation," that our founding documents are
extensions of biblical scripture, and that there has been a recent
falling away of the USA from its Christian past. While this book was
written approximately 20 years ago, these ideas continue to be
popular. As conservative evangelicals have assumed a larger role in
political life, there are increasing attempts to move these ideas out
of the conservative evangelical Christian community. Some of the
proponents of these ideas quoted in this book, like Tim LaHaye and
Jerry Falwell, will be familiar from their contemporary roles in
political life. Others, like James Dobson, have attained prominence
more recently, but espouse doctrines essentially identical to the ones
discussed in Search for Christian America.
Noll, Hatch, and Marsden base their critique on two planks. One is
simply that the "Christian Nation" version of American history,
particularly the early history of the republic, is wrong. Reflecting a
large volume of outstanding scholarship, including some produced by
the authors, Noll, Hatch, and Marsden, emphasize the relatively modest
role that explicitly Christian thought had in the founding of the
republic. Indeed, as they point out, some of the most explicitly
Christian features of the Revolutionary period, such as Protestant
anti-Catholic bigotry, are some of the least attractive features of
this period of American life.
The second plank of this critique is theological in nature. The
authors produce a cogent set of warnings about indiscriminate
entangling of Christianity with nationalism and uncritical patriotism.
They argue well that such entanglements can be detrimental to correct
Christian action. As they stress, this criticism is hardly novel,
indeed, some of the argument is based on the writings of notable
American Protestant leaders like Roger Williams, Isaac Backus,
Jonathan Edwards,and Samuel Hopkins. Noll, Hatch, and Marsden are not
arguing that evangelical Christians should withdraw from public life
or that religously motivated concerns are illegitimate in public life.
Quite the opposite, but they stress that such action should be based
on truthful understanding of American history and rigorous theological
thinking.
This short book is written clearly, referenced well, and is backed by
the impressive knowledge of the authors. Its a pity its not read more
widely.
************************************************************************************************
A potentially great book diminished by flawed reasoning, December 28, 2002
Reviewer: D. M. North (Flintstone, GA United States) - See all my reviews
(REAL NAME)
I was given this book by a friend who wanted to convince me that
America was not a "Christian Nation." The book failed to do so, but
not because it was not well written or scholarly in its approach to
the subject. In fact, the research is excellent, and the book deals
very fairly with the influence of religion in the early nation. The
problem is that the authors' conclusions are based upon certain
assumptions that I dispute, and that they fail to prove are legitimate
in the first place. They claim that we are not a Christian nation
because there is no biblical evidence that God planned a "new Israel"
in America. I agree. But they have no way to prove or disprove that
the faith and prayer of our forebears actually brought God's blessing
upon this continent in a real and direct sense. It did not have to be
prophesied to be a reality. Many of God's great works were never foretold.
They also claim that doctrinal impurity in many churches prevent this
from being a Christian nation. That might be so if this were an actual
theocracy, but that isn't what's under consideration here. We're
talking about the general principles of law and civil government. Were
they, or were they not founded in keeping with general Biblical
principles? Of course they were. The actual doctrinal views of the
founders is unimportant.
The authors argue that the majority of Americans have never been
Christians. That is also irrelevant. According to II Chronicles, God
doesn't demand that a whole nation turn to Him in order to receive His
blessing - He only commands His people (as many or as few as that may
be) to remain faithful, and the whole land will be blessed. And God's
Word is replete with stories of His mighty works through a faithful
few, in spite of overwhelming odds, and in spite of the disdain of the
"majority."
But finally, the authors contend that it was never actually the intent
of the founders to establish a "Christian Nation." Wrong. It was not
their intent to establish a theocracy, but it was clearly their intent
to establish a nation upon Christian principles. That fact has even
been recognized by the Supreme Court (Vidal v. Girard's Executors,
U.S. v. Church of the Holy Trinity).
The problem is clearly with how you define "Christian nation." The
authors seem to define it as a Christian theocracy, and as such spend
an entire book refuting a point that very few would argue in the first
place.
.
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| User: "zerkanX" |
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| Title: Re: Search for Christian America |
30 Apr 2005 07:22:59 AM |
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On Thu, 28 Apr 2005 08:09:43 -0400, buckeye-EL wrote:
it was clearly their intent to establish a nation upon Christian principles.
That fact has even been recognized by the Supreme Court
Well sort of.. 'recognized' but ...
=====
To understand whether this last part of the Court's rationale (ie Christian
Nation) establishes anything at all, it is necessary to first understand that
an opinion written by the Supreme Court contains several different parts. The
holding of the case establishes the rule of law as decided on by the court and
as it relates specifically to the facts of the case. The rationale of the case
contains the different reasons why the Court decided a case the way that it
did. Contained within these reasons can be comments by the Court which do not
have any bearing on the specific rule of law and are not binding on future
cases with similar facts. These non-essential comments are called dictum, and
unlike the holding of the case, dictum carries no precedential value.
=====
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/trinity.htm
The problem is clearly with how you define "Christian nation."
A problem indeed. I believe the answer is that there can never be a
satisfactory definition, to the point that, if there ever is a defintion that
is claimed to be as such, this is the one that will be the most in error.
From AGE OF REASON
http://www.infidels.org/library/historical/thomas_paine/age_of_reason/part1.html#1
I believe in one God, and no more; and I hope for happiness beyond this life.
I believe the equality of man, and I believe that religious duties consist in
doing justice, loving mercy, and endeavoring to make our fellow-creatures
happy.
But, lest it should be supposed that I believe many other things in addition to
these, I shall, in the progress of this work, declare the things I do not
believe, and my reasons for not believing them.
I do not believe in the creed professed by the Jewish church, by the Roman
church, by the Greek church, by the Turkish church, by the Protestant church,
nor by any church that I know of. My own mind is my own church.
All national institutions of churches, whether Jewish, Christian, or Turkish,
appear to me no other than human inventions set up to terrify and enslave
mankind, and monopolize power and profit...
=-=============================
BTW an excellent example of the separation of religion and church!!
.
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