| Topic: |
Religions > Atheism |
| User: |
"MarkA" |
| Date: |
14 Jun 2005 07:27:44 AM |
| Object: |
Secular Suicide bombers? |
Every day I see reports of another suicide bomber in the Middle East,
blowing himself up, presumably for the glory of Allah. It must take a lot
of conviction to overcome your natural instinct for self-preservation.
What a shame that it is wasted on a fantasy. Wouldn't it be great if
people could muster enough enthusiasm for a rational, secular cause?
--
MarkA
(still caught in the maze of twisty little passages, all different)
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| User: "maff" |
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| Title: Re: Secular Suicide bombers? |
15 Jun 2005 04:28:04 AM |
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MarkA wrote:
Every day I see reports of another suicide bomber in the Middle East,
blowing himself up, presumably for the glory of Allah. It must take a lot
of conviction to overcome your natural instinct for self-preservation.
What a shame that it is wasted on a fantasy. Wouldn't it be great if
people could muster enough enthusiasm for a rational, secular cause?
Honour and martyrdom
http://www.guardian.co.uk/comment/story/0,3604,1483797,00.html
Suicide bombing isn't as new or alien as westerners imagine
Ian Buruma
http://www.guardian.co.uk/g2/story/0,3604,557560,00.html
Why are so many educated young men willing to die to kill Americans?
Perhaps the answer lies in Japan
--
MarkA
(still caught in the maze of twisty little passages, all different)
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| User: "Christopher A. Lee" |
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| Title: Re: Secular Suicide bombers? |
14 Jun 2005 08:39:32 AM |
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On Tue, 14 Jun 2005 12:27:44 GMT, MarkA <manthony@stopspam.net> wrote:
Every day I see reports of another suicide bomber in the Middle East,
blowing himself up, presumably for the glory of Allah. It must take a lot
of conviction to overcome your natural instinct for self-preservation.
What a shame that it is wasted on a fantasy. Wouldn't it be great if
people could muster enough enthusiasm for a rational, secular cause?
They don't do it "for the glory of Allah". They do it for secular
reasons - like their land being occupied. It's their way of fighting
back. The Islamic part is that they are promised a place in Paradise
as martyrs.
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| User: "MarkA" |
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| Title: Re: Secular Suicide bombers? |
14 Jun 2005 04:20:10 PM |
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On Tue, 14 Jun 2005 09:39:32 -0400, Christopher A. Lee wrote:
On Tue, 14 Jun 2005 12:27:44 GMT, MarkA <manthony@stopspam.net> wrote:
Every day I see reports of another suicide bomber in the Middle East,
blowing himself up, presumably for the glory of Allah. It must take a
lot of conviction to overcome your natural instinct for
self-preservation. What a shame that it is wasted on a fantasy. Wouldn't
it be great if people could muster enough enthusiasm for a rational,
secular cause?
They don't do it "for the glory of Allah". They do it for secular reasons
- like their land being occupied. It's their way of fighting back. The
Islamic part is that they are promised a place in Paradise as martyrs.
I suspect that the political leaders are taking advantage of youthful
exuberance and religious fervor to advance their political cause.
--
MarkA
(still caught in the maze of twisty little passages, all different)
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| User: "Elroy Willis" |
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| Title: Re: Secular Suicide bombers? |
19 Jun 2005 09:04:52 AM |
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MarkA <manthony@stopspam.net> wrote in alt.atheism
Christopher A. Lee wrote:
MarkA <manthony@stopspam.net> wrote:
Every day I see reports of another suicide bomber in the Middle East,
blowing himself up, presumably for the glory of Allah. It must take a
lot of conviction to overcome your natural instinct for
self-preservation. What a shame that it is wasted on a fantasy. Wouldn't
it be great if people could muster enough enthusiasm for a rational,
secular cause?
They don't do it "for the glory of Allah". They do it for secular reasons
- like their land being occupied. It's their way of fighting back. The
Islamic part is that they are promised a place in Paradise as martyrs.
I suspect that the political leaders are taking advantage of youthful
exuberance and religious fervor to advance their political cause.
Don't the majority of American soldiers believe in some sort of
afterlife, where they'll be honored or rewarded for dying in battle,
while fighting the forces of evil?
--
Elroy Willis
www.elroysemporium.com
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| User: "societopia.net" |
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| Title: Re: Secular Suicide bombers? |
19 Jun 2005 10:58:53 AM |
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"Elroy Willis" <elroywillis@swbell.net> wrote in message
news:gfuab1h3ts32rpu249lhk7uqmrdtc615of@4ax.com...
MarkA <manthony@stopspam.net> wrote in alt.atheism
Christopher A. Lee wrote:
MarkA <manthony@stopspam.net> wrote:
Every day I see reports of another suicide bomber in the Middle East,
blowing himself up, presumably for the glory of Allah. It must take a
lot of conviction to overcome your natural instinct for
self-preservation. What a shame that it is wasted on a fantasy.
Wouldn't
it be great if people could muster enough enthusiasm for a rational,
secular cause?
They don't do it "for the glory of Allah". They do it for secular
reasons
- like their land being occupied. It's their way of fighting back. The
Islamic part is that they are promised a place in Paradise as martyrs.
They start from a reality of slavery to tyranny and strong networks of
societal judgments; from the way one dresses, washes hands, and eats, to the
way one thinks and express oneself (which is very comparable to atheist
realities where one has to act in a pleasing manner to other men in order to
be acknowledged in atheist societies).
Now imagine if in the midst of this heavily judgmental reality a movement
comes in to introduce to the disposed masses the concept of freedom from
obedience to God as the only King.
The concept is true but the doctrine that they use to achieve the goal is
false.
Instead of acknowledging that nothing on this earth happens contrary to God'
s will, they believe that the conspiracies of God's enemies have overcome
them and that men of God have to come to God's rescue. Instead of loving
one's enemies they believe "an eye for an eye". Instead of blessing one's
perceived enemies they cultivate thoughts of anger and violence by cursing
at their enemies in the daily prayers (much like alt.atheism is doing).
Instead of freeing the individual from man's judgments they murder the
opposition to their doctrine on charges of apostasy. Instead of
understanding God as love they construe a god of human justice; as if God
were asleep or as if God could not manage this world.
In summary the Islamic movements use a good concept "God is the only King"
much like the atheist use a good concept "tolerance" but both turn good
concepts into hollow and violent realities because of false doctrines and
lack of values of love.
Love determines the fruits of applying any concept.
God Bless You,
www.societopia.net
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| User: "Ben Goren" |
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| Title: Re: Secular Suicide bombers? |
19 Jun 2005 11:46:13 AM |
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societopia.net wrote:
Instead of acknowledging that nothing on this earth happens
contrary to God' s will, they believe that the conspiracies of
God's enemies have overcome them and that men of God have to
come to God's rescue. Instead of loving one's enemies they
believe "an eye for an eye". Instead of blessing one's
perceived enemies they cultivate thoughts of anger and violence
by cursing at their enemies in the daily prayers (much like
alt.atheism is doing). Instead of freeing the individual from
man's judgments they murder the opposition to their doctrine on
charges of apostasy. Instead of understanding God as love they
construe a god of human justice; as if God were asleep or as if
God could not manage this world.
But your first sentence contradicts everything else in the
paragraph. If everything that happens is consistent with God's
will, then God wills all evil to happen. What the hijackers did on
September 11th, 2001 was perfectly in accord with God's will, just
as they claimed. And Bush's invasion of Iraq and the subsequent
deaths of tens of thousands of civilians was God's will, too. God
wills the Palestinian suicide bomber to kill a cafeteria full of
kids as well, and his will made the D.C. sniper's aim so deadly.
I've said it before and I'll say it again: God is evil. I
don't want anything at all to do with him--let alone his
``blessing.'' Just look at how he ``blessed'' his own son, after
all.
It's just as well he doesn't exist, or else I'd have to dedicate
my life to fighting him.
Cheers,
b&
--
God can never prove that this sentence is true.
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| User: "societopia.net" |
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| Title: Re: Secular Suicide bombers? |
19 Jun 2005 12:26:27 PM |
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"Ben Goren" <ben@trumpetpower.com> wrote in message
news:42b5a247$1_2@spool9-west.superfeed.net...
societopia.net wrote:
Instead of acknowledging that nothing on this earth happens
contrary to God' s will, they believe that the conspiracies of
God's enemies have overcome them and that men of God have to
come to God's rescue. Instead of loving one's enemies they
believe "an eye for an eye". Instead of blessing one's
perceived enemies they cultivate thoughts of anger and violence
by cursing at their enemies in the daily prayers (much like
alt.atheism is doing). Instead of freeing the individual from
man's judgments they murder the opposition to their doctrine on
charges of apostasy. Instead of understanding God as love they
construe a god of human justice; as if God were asleep or as if
God could not manage this world.
But your first sentence contradicts everything else in the
paragraph. If everything that happens is consistent with God's
will, then God wills all evil to happen.
Was it by God's permission that Job got tried? Was Job's trial evil? By
faith, Job emerged out of his trial like gold purified through fire.
[One day the angels came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan
also came with them. The LORD said to Satan, "Where have you come from?"
Satan answered the LORD, "From roaming through the earth and going back and
forth in it."
Then the LORD said to Satan, "Have you considered my servant Job? There is
no one on earth like him; he is blameless and upright, a man who fears God
and shuns evil."
"Does Job fear God for nothing?" Satan replied. "Have you not put a hedge
around him and his household and everything he has? You have blessed the
work of his hands, so that his flocks and herds are spread throughout the
land. But stretch out your hand and strike everything he has, and he will
surely curse you to your face."
The LORD said to Satan, "Very well, then, everything he has is in your
hands, but on the man himself do not lay a finger."] Job 1:6-12
God Bless You,
www.societopia.net
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| User: "Ben Goren" |
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| Title: Re: Secular Suicide bombers? |
19 Jun 2005 12:53:12 PM |
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societopia.net wrote:
Was it by God's permission that Job got tried?
Yup. Tried and punished for no crime whatsoever.
(Of course, there was no more such a person as ``Job'' than there
is a fairy named ``God.'' We're talking literary analysis. No
different from pointing out just how evil Iago was, really.)
Was Job's trial evil?
Damned straight it was. It's like a couple bullies viciously
kicking a puppy to prove how much the puppy loves them. And when
the puppy tries to nip at one of them, the other bully scolds the
puppy for his insolence.
By faith, Job emerged out of his trial like gold purified
through fire.
Suuuuure...and Job's family and flocks--they were just collateral
damage, no doubt.
Satan
Finally, you acknowledge the most important member of your
pantheon! For just as the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are
manifestations of the one being, God, so is Satan--and Satan can
and regularly does kick the other three's butts. He even makes
them do things--like drown the entire world; murder Egyptian
children; bless the taking, raping, and murdering of slaves;
torture pigs by casting demons into them and then drowning them;
having his own son tortured and murdered as a sign of the end of
pain and death....
Satan bless you!
Cheers,
b&
--
God can never prove that this sentence is true.
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| User: "societopia.net" |
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| Title: Re: Secular Suicide bombers? |
19 Jun 2005 01:26:00 PM |
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"Ben Goren" <ben@trumpetpower.com> wrote in message
news:42b5b1fa$1_2@spool9-west.superfeed.net...
...
Suuuuure...and Job's family and flocks--they were just collateral
damage, no doubt.
The expression of a creator damaging or torturing his creature is just a
ridiculously incorrect translation of a process that one does not understand
because one cannot create the creatures in the first place.
What if a person designed a computerized system and then at some later step
in the project he decided to allow that system to be dismantled (only to be
re-assembled in a different form). Does that make him "torturing" his
creation?
People who attempt judging God's will do not have the capacity to act
according to their advertised ideals if they were to become in charge of any
amount of people (just look at any example of a leader or politician in
human history)
Do you think that you have the knowledge and capacity to judge God's actions
in the universe? In your literal analysis, you bemoaned the death of Job's
family, but if one were to be in Stalin's position, for example, one might
have not equally shied from sending millions to their death only to satisfy
one's pride and control over people that he did not create.
Do you still think that one can judge God's actions towards his creature?
God Bless You,
www.societopia.net
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| User: "Chris H. Fleming" |
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| Title: Re: Secular Suicide bombers? |
19 Jun 2005 02:07:22 PM |
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societopia.net wrote:
"Ben Goren" <ben@trumpetpower.com> wrote in message
news:42b5b1fa$1_2@spool9-west.superfeed.net...
..
Suuuuure...and Job's family and flocks--they were just collateral
damage, no doubt.
The expression of a creator damaging or torturing his creature is just a
ridiculously incorrect translation of a process that one does not understand
because one cannot create the creatures in the first place.
I can make babies. So now I am free to torture them? That's disgusting!
What if a person designed a computerized system and then at some later step
in the project he decided to allow that system to be dismantled (only to be
re-assembled in a different form). Does that make him "torturing" his
creation?
It is not torture as the computerized system is not alive and cannot
feel. The analogy fails.
People who attempt judging God's will do not have the capacity to act
according to their advertised ideals if they were to become in charge of any
amount of people (just look at any example of a leader or politician in
human history)
This is the biggest ***** argument ever. If you have ever wondered
why you are treated like an ***** here, it is because of these types
of really bad logical fallacies. These types of statements offend the
decency of truth!
1) God is perfect and capable of creating life
2) Man is not
3) Therefore Man cannot judge God
4) My ethics come from God
5) Therefore, Man cannot judge my ethics
It's completely circular! It's *****! If you cannot independently
judge your ethical system, then you cannot know if you are worshiping
god or devil! This fallacious argument gives you excuse to do ANYTHING
in the name of god. There is no point to having any ethics anymore.
Do you think that you have the knowledge and capacity to judge God's actions
in the universe?
To a certain extent, yes, we all do. If you cannot see that, then you
are denying your own life. If I cannot judge the actions of god, then I
cannot judge god. If I cannot judge god, then I cannot know if he is
god or devil. If I were to willingly worship something I cannot
distinguish between god and devil, then I am damned.
In your literal analysis, you bemoaned the death of Job's
family, but if one were to be in Stalin's position, for example, one might
have not equally shied from sending millions to their death only to satisfy
one's pride and control over people that he did not create.
wtf??? I can't follow your spelling or argument.
Do you still think that one can judge God's actions towards his creature?
If you can't judge it, then why the ***** would they put it in the
bible? You think the put the story there so people could read it and
say, "yup that's god, nobody ever knows what the ***** he's thinking."
Are you an atheist pretending to be a theist?
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| User: "societopia.net" |
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| Title: Re: Secular Suicide bombers? |
19 Jun 2005 07:12:38 PM |
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"Chris H. Fleming" <chris_h_fleming@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1119208042.193943.103430@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...
....
These types of statements offend the
decency of truth!
1) God is perfect and capable of creating life
2) Man is not
3) Therefore Man cannot judge God
4) My ethics come from God
5) Therefore, Man cannot judge my ethics
It's completely circular! It's *****!
You created your own statements and cursed at your own understanding;
mainly because you mistakenly added #4 and concluded #5. I do not make the
same conclusions as you do.
If you cannot independently
judge your ethical system, then you cannot know if you are worshiping
god or devil!
There is a difference between evaluating one's ethical system and judging
God's will.
....
Do you think that you have the knowledge and capacity to judge God's
actions
in the universe?
To a certain extent, yes, we all do. If you cannot see that, then you
are denying your own life. If I cannot judge the actions of god, then I
cannot judge god. If I cannot judge god, then I cannot know if he is
god or devil. If I were to willingly worship something I cannot
distinguish between god and devil, then I am damned.
You excited yourself in some verbal acrobats that made you equate man's
capacity of sensing "good and evil" to man's capacity to judge God.
Even in the secular judicial system; in order to pronounce a judgment on any
man the actors in the system have to collect enough information about the
motives and circumstances of the event before they can judge with any
certainty. You seem to think that you are aware of God's motives to judge
his will. I do not.
God Bless You,
www.societopia.net
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| User: "Chris H. Fleming" |
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| Title: Re: Secular Suicide bombers? |
19 Jun 2005 10:09:00 PM |
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societopia.net wrote:
"Chris H. Fleming" <chris_h_fleming@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1119208042.193943.103430@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...
Do you think that you have the knowledge and capacity to judge God's
actions in the universe?
You excited yourself in some verbal acrobats that made you equate man's
capacity of sensing "good and evil" to man's capacity to judge God.
It's a simple question. I've cut all the crap to get to the point.
How do you distinguish between a god and devil?
How do you know the bible is the word of a god and not the word of a
devil?
How do you know that a god is good and a devil is bad?
Your stance seems blatantly contradictory. Enlighten us.
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| User: "societopia.net" |
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| Title: Re: Secular Suicide bombers? |
19 Jun 2005 11:01:39 PM |
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"Chris H. Fleming" <chris_h_fleming@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1119236940.070084.118110@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
....
It's a simple question. I've cut all the crap to get to the point.
How do you distinguish between a god and devil?
In the same way that I knew how to eat, speak and think.
[And the LORD God said, "The man has now become like one of us, knowing good
and evil.] Genesis 3:22
How do you know the bible is the word of a god and not the word of a
devil?
I would not have known about the devil had it not been for the Bible.
Therefore the devil's definition to me is that of the Bible. I do not know
what definition of the devil do you use?
[What shall we say, then? Is the law sin? Certainly not! Indeed I would not
have known what sin was except through the law. For I would not have known
what coveting really was if the law had not said, "Do not covet."] Romans
7:7
How do you know that a god is good and a devil is bad?
["I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down his life for the
sheep. The hired hand is not the shepherd who owns the sheep. So when he
sees the wolf coming, he abandons the sheep and runs away. Then the wolf
attacks the flock and scatters it. The man runs away because he is a hired
hand and cares nothing for the sheep.
"I am the good shepherd; I know my sheep and my sheep know me- just as the
Father knows me and I know the Father-and I lay down my life for the sheep.]
John 10:11-15
[Which of you, if his son asks for bread, will give him a stone? Or if he
asks for a fish, will give him a snake? If you, then, though you are evil,
know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father
in heaven give good gifts to those who ask him!] Matthew 7:9-11
God bless you,
www.societopia.net
.
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| User: "Chris H. Fleming" |
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| Title: Re: Secular Suicide bombers? |
20 Jun 2005 02:11:01 AM |
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societopia.net wrote:
"Chris H. Fleming" <chris_h_fleming@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1119236940.070084.118110@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
...
It's a simple question. I've cut all the crap to get to the point.
How do you distinguish between a god and devil?
In the same way that I knew how to eat, speak and think.
[And the LORD God said, "The man has now become like one of us, knowing good
and evil.] Genesis 3:22
So you intuitively cast judgement on god that god is good, because you
intuitively know what is good.
And yet at the same time you deny that a man can cast judgement on god.
That a gods actions are beyond judgement.
If you can't see the illogic of that...
How do you know the bible is the word of a god and not the word of a
devil?
I would not have known about the devil had it not been for the Bible.
Therefore the devil's definition to me is that of the Bible. I do not know
what definition of the devil do you use?
You have basically answered the question indirectly. You have judged
the bible good based on your intuitive understanding of what is good.
Some people judge the bible (or at least parts of the bible) to be bad.
The Marcionite Christians judged the OT to be a work of the devil.
Which sect is to be believed? Catholic or Marcionite? Why? Based on
your reasoning, neither one of you has any advantage.
How do you know that a god is good and a devil is bad?
["I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down his life for the
sheep. The hired hand is not the shepherd who owns the sheep. So when he
sees the wolf coming, he abandons the sheep and runs away. Then the wolf
attacks the flock and scatters it. The man runs away because he is a hired
hand and cares nothing for the sheep.
"I am the good shepherd; I know my sheep and my sheep know me- just as the
Father knows me and I know the Father-and I lay down my life for the sheep.]
John 10:11-15
[Which of you, if his son asks for bread, will give him a stone? Or if he
asks for a fish, will give him a snake? If you, then, though you are evil,
know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father
in heaven give good gifts to those who ask him!] Matthew 7:9-11
So you judge a shepherd by it's care of the sheep and a wolf by it's
care of the sheep.
And at the same time, you assert that if something you call a shepherd
eats a sheep, others may not judge that shepherd to be a wolf. Because
shepherds are beyond judgement.
If the point I am making is not clear by now: you can't both claim that
your god is beyond judgement and that you judge your god to be good.
It's a simple contradiction.
The best you could have said was that the situation was very
complicated and any judgement should be cautious. But in pushing god
outside the realm of judgement, god can no longer known to be good. God
could then be a devil.
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| User: "societopia.net" |
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| Title: Re: Secular Suicide bombers? |
20 Jun 2005 07:38:48 PM |
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"Chris H. Fleming" <chris_h_fleming@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1119251461.883011.90840@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
Some people judge the bible (or at least parts of the bible) to be bad.
The Marcionite Christians judged the OT to be a work of the devil.
Which sect is to be believed? Catholic or Marcionite? Why? Based on
your reasoning, neither one of you has any advantage.
I tend to characterize the situation as follows: churches are united by
faith but divided by arguments, judgments and intellects.
...
The best you could have said was that the situation was very
complicated and any judgement should be cautious. But in pushing god
outside the realm of judgement, god can no longer known to be good. God
could then be a devil.
Chris, I think that you could have resolved the tension in your attempt to
perceive God's will by focusing on the factor of faith rather than on the
strength of one's human intellect (as I cautioned in a previous thread of
the fallacies of the atheist ethos).
One finds God by faith, not by perfecting one's judgmental or intellectual
capacity (as you attempted to argue that one finds God by one's judgment).
A simple farmer who might have never learned to read or write finds God by
faith. I disagree on your argument that we can find God using our ability
to choose between good and evil.
[For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know
him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save
those who believe.] 1 Corinthians 1:21
The tension that you found in your argument was because you applied one
meaning of the verb "to judge" to two different situations;
1) "Judging good from evil" and
2) "Judging God's will" in the universe (e.g. natural
disasters or acts of God)
God can judge his creation. But according to the scripture, man is not
competent to judge his fellow men, let alone God.
[There is only one Lawgiver and Judge, the one who is able to save and
destroy. But you-who are you to judge your neighbor?] James 4:11-13
This is the outcome of attempting to grasp God's will by human standards.
Christian churches are united by faith and divided by human arguments and
judgments; the more secular some travel the more argumentative and divided
they become; the more faithful they remain the more loving they grow.
Since we are writing under a topic of "terrorism", I find it interesting
though that there is a constant shared theme between atheist and the
political Islamist realities. One believes that they have the most perfect
judgmental system to reach to God. The other believes that they have the
most perfect system of intellect to prove their arguments of rejecting the
belief in God. Both rely on the ideal of perfecting human judgment and
intellect to reach to the truth.
God bless you,
www.societopia.net
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| User: "Paul Erickson" |
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| Title: Re: Secular Suicide bombers? |
21 Jun 2005 02:08:43 AM |
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On Tue, 21 Jun 2005 00:38:48 GMT, "societopia.net"
<societopia@societopia.net> wrote:
"Chris H. Fleming" <chris_h_fleming@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1119251461.883011.90840@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
Some people judge the bible (or at least parts of the bible) to be bad.
The Marcionite Christians judged the OT to be a work of the devil.
Which sect is to be believed? Catholic or Marcionite? Why? Based on
your reasoning, neither one of you has any advantage.
I tend to characterize the situation as follows: churches are united by
faith but divided by arguments, judgments and intellects.
..
The best you could have said was that the situation was very
complicated and any judgement should be cautious. But in pushing god
outside the realm of judgement, god can no longer known to be good. God
could then be a devil.
Chris, I think that you could have resolved the tension in your attempt to
perceive God's will by focusing on the factor of faith rather than on the
strength of one's human intellect (as I cautioned in a previous thread of
the fallacies of the atheist ethos).
One finds God by faith, not by perfecting one's judgmental or intellectual
capacity (as you attempted to argue that one finds God by one's judgment).
A simple farmer who might have never learned to read or write finds God by
faith. I disagree on your argument that we can find God using our ability
to choose between good and evil.
[For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know
him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save
those who believe.] 1 Corinthians 1:21
The tension that you found in your argument was because you applied one
meaning of the verb "to judge" to two different situations;
1) "Judging good from evil" and
2) "Judging God's will" in the universe (e.g. natural
disasters or acts of God)
God can judge his creation. But according to the scripture, man is not
competent to judge his fellow men, let alone God.
[There is only one Lawgiver and Judge, the one who is able to save and
destroy. But you-who are you to judge your neighbor?] James 4:11-13
This is the outcome of attempting to grasp God's will by human standards.
Christian churches are united by faith and divided by human arguments and
judgments; the more secular some travel the more argumentative and divided
they become; the more faithful they remain the more loving they grow.
Since we are writing under a topic of "terrorism", I find it interesting
though that there is a constant shared theme between atheist and the
political Islamist realities. One believes that they have the most perfect
judgmental system to reach to God. The other believes that they have the
most perfect system of intellect to prove their arguments of rejecting the
belief in God. Both rely on the ideal of perfecting human judgment and
intellect to reach to the truth.
That, of course, is a lot of nonsense. Find me an atheist who thinks
he or she has a perfect system of intellect wrt _anything_, never mind
rejecting God.
God bless you,
Have a Kleenex
Slobbering Skeleton
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| User: "societopia.net" |
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| Title: Re: Secular Suicide bombers? |
21 Jun 2005 06:24:35 AM |
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"Paul Erickson" <paul.erickson@softhome.net> wrote in message
news:knafb1p8sji16btqc1r8vi8f0j3hmlcee2@4ax.com...
On Tue, 21 Jun 2005 00:38:48 GMT, "societopia.net"
<societopia@societopia.net> wrote:
....
Since we are writing under a topic of "terrorism", I find it interesting
though that there is a constant shared theme between atheist and the
political Islamist realities. One believes that they have the most
perfect
judgmental system to reach to God. The other believes that they have the
most perfect system of intellect to prove their arguments of rejecting
the
belief in God. Both rely on the ideal of perfecting human judgment and
intellect to reach to the truth.
That, of course, is a lot of nonsense. Find me an atheist who thinks
he or she has a perfect system of intellect wrt _anything_, never mind
rejecting God.
It is like some one writing "These types of statements offend the decency of
truth!" while using violent profanity (as if the latter does not) and thinks
he has the intellectual capacity to judge God on the human standards of good
and evil. All signs of a deception of a perfection that justifies to its
holder many violations, yet demands more signs and proofs.
["He said to him, 'If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they
will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.' "] Luke 16:31
God bless you,
www.societopia.net
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| User: "Chris H. Fleming" |
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| Title: Re: Secular Suicide bombers? |
20 Jun 2005 11:21:39 PM |
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societopia.net wrote:
"Chris H. Fleming" <chris_h_fleming@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1119251461.883011.90840@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
The best you could have said was that the situation was very
complicated and any judgement should be cautious. But in pushing god
outside the realm of judgement, god can no longer known to be good. God
could then be a devil.
Chris, I think that you could have resolved the tension in your attempt to
perceive God's will by focusing on the factor of faith rather than on the
strength of one's human intellect (as I cautioned in a previous thread of
the fallacies of the atheist ethos).
I am not making any attempt to perceive God's will period. You are the
one perceiving gods. You both claim that your god is good and that god
cannot be judged. The "tension" exists only in your contradictory
position.
One finds God by faith, not by perfecting one's judgmental or intellectual
capacity (as you attempted to argue that one finds God by one's judgment).
A simple farmer who might have never learned to read or write finds God by
faith. I disagree on your argument that we can find God using our ability
to choose between good and evil.
But you still can't say that the god is not a devil if you cannot cast
judgement on the god. You can't make black = white because you have
faith. It's *****. Pure *****.
The tension that you found in your argument was because you applied one
meaning of the verb "to judge" to two different situations;
1) "Judging good from evil" and
2) "Judging God's will" in the universe (e.g. natural
disasters or acts of God)
Semantic *****. The worst kind of *****. I think I've had my fill.
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| User: "Ben Goren" |
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| Title: Re: Secular Suicide bombers? |
19 Jun 2005 11:33:27 PM |
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societopia.net wrote:
Chris H. Fleming wrote:
How do you know the bible is the word of a god and not the word
of a devil?
I would not have known about the devil had it not been for the
Bible. Therefore the devil's definition to me is that of the
Bible.
So, then, how do you know that God wasn't lying to the prophets
who wrote the Bible? After all, God was quite fond of lying to
prophets. He did so in 1 Kings 22:23, 2 Chronicles 18:22, Jeremiah
4:10 and 20:7, and Ezekiel 14:9. God also lies to people in 2
Thessalonians 2:11-12, and the scribes themselves screw up God's
word in Jeremiah 8:8.
Quite the conundrum, if you ask me. I mean, when God says he lies,
do you believe him? Or do you assume he's lying?
Cheers,
b&
--
God can never prove that this sentence is true.
----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==----
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| User: "societopia.net" |
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| Title: Re: Secular Suicide bombers? |
20 Jun 2005 07:47:04 PM |
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"Ben Goren" <ben@trumpetpower.com> wrote in message
news:42b6480a$1_2@spool9-west.superfeed.net...
....
Quite the conundrum, if you ask me. I mean, when God says he lies,
do you believe him? Or do you assume he's lying?
Again as I responded to Chris, people who attempt to find God using fallible
human intellect are looking for an earthly paradise and usually never find
it (because it does not exist); much like the Islamic movements are trying
to do by building a perfect judgmental system that is pleasing to the
intellectual desire of the current generations.
[For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know
him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save
those who believe.] 1 Corinthians 1:21
[not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that
which is through faith in Christ-the righteousness that comes from God and
is by faith.] Philippians 3:9
[In him and through faith in him we may approach God with freedom and
confidence.] Ephesians 3:12
God bless you,
www.societopia.net
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| User: "Ben Goren" |
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| Title: Re: Secular Suicide bombers? |
20 Jun 2005 08:31:07 PM |
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societopia.net wrote:
[For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did
not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what
was preached to save those who believe.] 1 Corinthians 1:21
Perhaps. But that was written by a prophet, no? And 1 Kings 22:23
says, ``Now therefore, behold, the LORD hath put a lying spirit in
the mouth of all these thy prophets, and the LORD hath spoken evil
concerning thee.''
How am I supposed to know if the foolishness God put in the Bible
is a reflection of his wisdom or his lying spirit? Is it there to
save those who believe, or the result of an evil spirit trying to
deceive me?
[not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law,
but that which is through faith in Christ-the righteousness that
comes from God and is by faith.] Philippians 3:9
But certainly righteousness must come from love? And John 4:18
says that ``[t]here is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth
out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made
perfect in love.''
How then could Psalm 147:11 be true when it proclaims that ``[t]he
LORD taketh pleasure in them that fear him, in those that hope in
his mercy?'' Why would 1 Peter 2:17 command us to ``Fear God.''?
[In him and through faith in him we may approach God with
freedom and confidence.] Ephesians 3:12
But surely there can be no freedom in God, for, as Numbers 31
makes clear, murder, rape, and slavery are all acts that God
commands the righteous to do.
Cheers,
b&
--
God can never prove that this sentence is true.
----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==----
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----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =----
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| User: "Ben Goren" |
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| Title: Re: Secular Suicide bombers? |
20 Jun 2005 08:58:20 PM |
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societopia.net wrote:
[For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did
not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what
was preached to save those who believe.] 1 Corinthians 1:21
Perhaps. But that was written by a prophet, no? And 1 Kings 22:23
says, ``Now therefore, behold, the LORD hath put a lying spirit in
the mouth of all these thy prophets, and the LORD hath spoken evil
concerning thee.''
How am I supposed to know if the foolishness God put in the Bible
is a reflection of his wisdom or his lying spirit? Is it there to
save those who believe, or the result of an evil spirit trying to
deceive me?
[not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law,
but that which is through faith in Christ-the righteousness that
comes from God and is by faith.] Philippians 3:9
But certainly righteousness must come from love? And John 4:18
says that ``[t]here is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth
out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made
perfect in love.''
How then could Psalm 147:11 be true when it proclaims that ``[t]he
LORD taketh pleasure in them that fear him, in those that hope in
his mercy?'' Why would 1 Peter 2:17 command us to ``Fear God.''?
[In him and through faith in him we may approach God with
freedom and confidence.] Ephesians 3:12
But surely there can be no freedom in God, for, as Numbers 31
makes clear, murder, rape, and slavery are all acts that God
commands the righteous to do.
Cheers,
b&
--
God can never prove that this sentence is true.
----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==----
http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups
----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =----
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| User: "Fred Stone" |
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| Title: Re: Secular Suicide bombers? |
19 Jun 2005 10:03:59 AM |
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Elroy Willis <elroywillis@swbell.net> wrote in
news:gfuab1h3ts32rpu249lhk7uqmrdtc615of@4ax.com:
MarkA <manthony@stopspam.net> wrote in alt.atheism
Christopher A. Lee wrote:
MarkA <manthony@stopspam.net> wrote:
Every day I see reports of another suicide bomber in the Middle
East, blowing himself up, presumably for the glory of Allah. It
must take a lot of conviction to overcome your natural instinct for
self-preservation. What a shame that it is wasted on a fantasy.
Wouldn't it be great if people could muster enough enthusiasm for a
rational, secular cause?
They don't do it "for the glory of Allah". They do it for secular
reasons - like their land being occupied. It's their way of fighting
back. The Islamic part is that they are promised a place in Paradise
as martyrs.
I suspect that the political leaders are taking advantage of youthful
exuberance and religious fervor to advance their political cause.
Don't the majority of American soldiers believe in some sort of
afterlife, where they'll be honored or rewarded for dying in battle,
while fighting the forces of evil?
I don't think that's quite what they believe, Elroy.
--
Fred Stone
aa# 1369
"Metaphysics is almost always an attempt to prove
the incredible by an appeal to the unintelligible."
[H.L. Mencken, "Prejudices"]
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| User: "Elroy Willis" |
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| Title: Re: Secular Suicide bombers? |
20 Jun 2005 08:00:05 AM |
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Fred Stone <fstone69@earthling.com> wrote in alt.atheism
Elroy Willis <elroywillis@swbell.net> wrote in
MarkA <manthony@stopspam.net> wrote in alt.atheism
Christopher A. Lee wrote:
MarkA <manthony@stopspam.net> wrote:
Every day I see reports of another suicide bomber in the Middle
East, blowing himself up, presumably for the glory of Allah. It
must take a lot of conviction to overcome your natural instinct for
self-preservation. What a shame that it is wasted on a fantasy.
Wouldn't it be great if people could muster enough enthusiasm for a
rational, secular cause?
They don't do it "for the glory of Allah". They do it for secular
reasons - like their land being occupied. It's their way of fighting
back. The Islamic part is that they are promised a place in Paradise
as martyrs.
I suspect that the political leaders are taking advantage of youthful
exuberance and religious fervor to advance their political cause.
Don't the majority of American soldiers believe in some sort of
afterlife, where they'll be honored or rewarded for dying in battle,
while fighting the forces of evil?
I don't think that's quite what they believe, Elroy.
The majority of US soldiers are Christians, right? If not, what's the
current majority?
--
Elroy Willis
www.elroysemporium.com
.
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| User: "Fred Stone" |
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| Title: Re: Secular Suicide bombers? |
20 Jun 2005 08:57:33 AM |
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Elroy Willis <elroywillis@swbell.net> wrote in
news:j6fdb1p4b5f24ncj9e9l8gkdqunbsummmt@4ax.com:
Fred Stone <fstone69@earthling.com> wrote in alt.atheism
Elroy Willis <elroywillis@swbell.net> wrote in
MarkA <manthony@stopspam.net> wrote in alt.atheism
Christopher A. Lee wrote:
MarkA <manthony@stopspam.net> wrote:
Every day I see reports of another suicide bomber in the Middle
East, blowing himself up, presumably for the glory of Allah. It
must take a lot of conviction to overcome your natural instinct
for self-preservation. What a shame that it is wasted on a
fantasy. Wouldn't it be great if people could muster enough
enthusiasm for a rational, secular cause?
They don't do it "for the glory of Allah". They do it for secular
reasons - like their land being occupied. It's their way of
fighting back. The Islamic part is that they are promised a place
in Paradise as martyrs.
I suspect that the political leaders are taking advantage of
youthful exuberance and religious fervor to advance their political
cause.
Don't the majority of American soldiers believe in some sort of
afterlife, where they'll be honored or rewarded for dying in battle,
while fighting the forces of evil?
I don't think that's quite what they believe, Elroy.
The majority of US soldiers are Christians, right? If not, what's the
current majority?
I'm sure the proportion of soldiers is roughly like that of the US in
general. The majority are Christians of one sort or another. But I don't
think Christians really believe that they'll be honored or rewarded
particularly for dying in battle. It depends on the sect, but many
believe that all are equal once they get to heaven.
Christian martyrdom is more about holding to their faith in spite of
physical threats in this life, not about earning a fancier place in the
afterlife.
--
Fred Stone
aa# 1369
"Metaphysics is almost always an attempt to prove
the incredible by an appeal to the unintelligible."
[H.L. Mencken, "Prejudices"]
.
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| User: "Elroy Willis" |
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| Title: Re: Secular Suicide bombers? |
20 Jun 2005 10:04:33 AM |
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Fred Stone <fstone69@earthling.com> wrote in alt.atheism
Elroy Willis <elroywillis@swbell.net> wrote in
Fred Stone <fstone69@earthling.com> wrote in alt.atheism
Elroy Willis <elroywillis@swbell.net> wrote in
MarkA <manthony@stopspam.net> wrote in alt.atheism
I suspect that the political leaders are taking advantage of
youthful exuberance and religious fervor to advance their political
cause.
Don't the majority of American soldiers believe in some sort of
afterlife, where they'll be honored or rewarded for dying in battle,
while fighting the forces of evil?
I don't think that's quite what they believe, Elroy.
The majority of US soldiers are Christians, right? If not, what's the
current majority?
I'm sure the proportion of soldiers is roughly like that of the US in
general. The majority are Christians of one sort or another. But I don't
think Christians really believe that they'll be honored or rewarded
particularly for dying in battle. It depends on the sect, but many
believe that all are equal once they get to heaven.
They aren't promised 72 virgins in heaven like the Muslims, but
they're promised some happy afterlife, aren't they? Plus they're
promised the idea of being considered a hero for dying in battle,
fighting for the protection of our country and our supposed
"Christian" ideals or Capitalistic anti-Communistic ideology..
Christian martyrdom is more about holding to their faith in spite of
physical threats in this life, not about earning a fancier place in the
afterlife.
A Christian who martyrs himself is bound to get a better place in
heaven, according to what I understand about the theology. The
more you suffer, the better chance of becoming a Saint!
Of course, there are cowards in Christianity as well, from the very
beginning, such as Saint Peter and all the pretended disciples or
apostles of Jesus, who abandoned him while he was supposedly
hanging on his cross, so I don't fault any self-proclaimed Christians
who refuse to die on a cross or in battle, or for other some cause,
and choose pacifism instead, like the Quakers...
--
Elroy Willis
www.elroysemporium.com
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| User: "Fred Stone" |
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| Title: Re: Secular Suicide bombers? |
20 Jun 2005 11:11:39 AM |
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Elroy Willis <elroywillis@swbell.net> wrote in
news:epldb1dcghktijh08c77bko81ot5jj1rq6@4ax.com:
Fred Stone <fstone69@earthling.com> wrote in alt.atheism
Elroy Willis <elroywillis@swbell.net> wrote in
Fred Stone <fstone69@earthling.com> wrote in alt.atheism
Elroy Willis <elroywillis@swbell.net> wrote in
MarkA <manthony@stopspam.net> wrote in alt.atheism
I suspect that the political leaders are taking advantage of
youthful exuberance and religious fervor to advance their
political cause.
Don't the majority of American soldiers believe in some sort of
afterlife, where they'll be honored or rewarded for dying in
battle, while fighting the forces of evil?
I don't think that's quite what they believe, Elroy.
The majority of US soldiers are Christians, right? If not, what's
the current majority?
I'm sure the proportion of soldiers is roughly like that of the US in
general. The majority are Christians of one sort or another. But I
don't think Christians really believe that they'll be honored or
rewarded particularly for dying in battle. It depends on the sect,
but many believe that all are equal once they get to heaven.
They aren't promised 72 virgins in heaven like the Muslims, but
they're promised some happy afterlife, aren't they?
They get promised that for believing, regardless of whether they're a
hero or not.
Plus they're
promised the idea of being considered a hero for dying in battle,
fighting for the protection of our country and our supposed
"Christian" ideals or Capitalistic anti-Communistic ideology..
That's on earth, not in the afterlife.
Christian martyrdom is more about holding to their faith in spite of
physical threats in this life, not about earning a fancier place in
the afterlife.
A Christian who martyrs himself is bound to get a better place in
heaven, according to what I understand about the theology. The
more you suffer, the better chance of becoming a Saint!
According to some Catholics. But most if not all Christians consider
suicide to be a terrible sin.
Of course, there are cowards in Christianity as well, from the very
beginning, such as Saint Peter and all the pretended disciples or
apostles of Jesus, who abandoned him while he was supposedly
hanging on his cross, so I don't fault any self-proclaimed Christians
who refuse to die on a cross or in battle, or for other some cause,
and choose pacifism instead, like the Quakers...
Quaker pacifism is not cowardly. The ones I've known or read about
wouldn't run away from anybody.
--
Fred Stone
aa# 1369
"Metaphysics is almost always an attempt to prove
the incredible by an appeal to the unintelligible."
[H.L. Mencken, "Prejudices"]
.
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| User: "johac" |
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| Title: Re: Secular Suicide bombers? |
23 Jun 2005 01:42:07 AM |
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In article <epldb1dcghktijh08c77bko81ot5jj1rq6@4ax.com>,
Elroy Willis <elroywillis@swbell.net> wrote:
Fred Stone <fstone69@earthling.com> wrote in alt.atheism
Elroy Willis <elroywillis@swbell.net> wrote in
Fred Stone <fstone69@earthling.com> wrote in alt.atheism
Elroy Willis <elroywillis@swbell.net> wrote in
MarkA <manthony@stopspam.net> wrote in alt.atheism
I suspect that the political leaders are taking advantage of
youthful exuberance and religious fervor to advance their political
cause.
Don't the majority of American soldiers believe in some sort of
afterlife, where they'll be honored or rewarded for dying in battle,
while fighting the forces of evil?
I don't think that's quite what they believe, Elroy.
The majority of US soldiers are Christians, right? If not, what's the
current majority?
I'm sure the proportion of soldiers is roughly like that of the US in
general. The majority are Christians of one sort or another. But I don't
think Christians really believe that they'll be honored or rewarded
particularly for dying in battle. It depends on the sect, but many
believe that all are equal once they get to heaven.
They aren't promised 72 virgins in heaven like the Muslims, but
they're promised some happy afterlife, aren't they? Plus they're
promised the idea of being considered a hero for dying in battle,
fighting for the protection of our country and our supposed
"Christian" ideals or Capitalistic anti-Communistic ideology..
Christian martyrdom is more about holding to their faith in spite of
physical threats in this life, not about earning a fancier place in the
afterlife.
A Christian who martyrs himself is bound to get a better place in
heaven, according to what I understand about the theology. The
more you suffer, the better chance of becoming a Saint!
The RCC teaches that martyrs, i. e. those who die for the faith, go
directly to Heaven and don't have to spend any time moping around in
Purgatory.
Of course, there are cowards in Christianity as well, from the very
beginning, such as Saint Peter and all the pretended disciples or
apostles of Jesus, who abandoned him while he was supposedly
hanging on his cross, so I don't fault any self-proclaimed Christians
who refuse to die on a cross or in battle, or for other some cause,
and choose pacifism instead, like the Quakers...
--
John Hachmann aa #1782
"Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities"
-Voltaire
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| User: "Emma Pease" |
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| Title: Re: Secular Suicide bombers? |
20 Jun 2005 01:52:56 PM |
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In article <epldb1dcghktijh08c77bko81ot5jj1rq6@4ax.com>, Elroy Willis wrote:
Of course, there are cowards in Christianity as well, from the very
beginning, such as Saint Peter and all the pretended disciples or
apostles of Jesus, who abandoned him while he was supposedly
hanging on his cross, so I don't fault any self-proclaimed Christians
who refuse to die on a cross or in battle, or for other some cause,
and choose pacifism instead, like the Quakers...
Most Quakers refuse to kill; it doesn't mean many don't put their
lives at risk for what they consider worthwhile. A fair number have
worked as medics on the battlefield helping the wounded of both sides
(so had all the risk of being shot at without choosing to fire back).
I've also seen a cite of them working as bomb disposal experts during
the Battle of Britain (not exactly a safe job).
A fair number have also worked against slavery, segregation, war, etc
even when faced with death threats and violence.
--
\----
|\* | Emma Pease Net Spinster
|_\/ Die Luft der Freiheit weht
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| User: "Elroy Willis" |
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| Title: Re: Secular Suicide bombers? |
21 Jun 2005 09:56:49 AM |
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Emma Pease <emma@kanpai.stanford.edu> wrote in alt.atheism
Elroy Willis wrote:
Of course, there are cowards in Christianity as well, from the very
beginning, such as Saint Peter and all the pretended disciples or
apostles of Jesus, who abandoned him while he was supposedly
hanging on his cross, so I don't fault any self-proclaimed Christians
who refuse to die on a cross or in battle, or for other some cause,
and choose pacifism instead, like the Quakers...
Most Quakers refuse to kill; it doesn't mean many don't put their
lives at risk for what they consider worthwhile. A fair number have
worked as medics on the battlefield helping the wounded of both sides
(so had all the risk of being shot at without choosing to fire back).
I've also seen a cite of them working as bomb disposal experts during
the Battle of Britain (not exactly a safe job).
A fair number have also worked against slavery, segregation, war, etc
even when faced with death threats and violence.
I didn't mean to belittle them, if that's how it came across. I do
know, however, that many pro-war people consider pacifistic people as
pansies and cowards.
--
Elroy Willis
www.elroysemporium.com
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