| Topic: |
Religions > Atheism |
| User: |
"Rob Wade" |
| Date: |
17 Feb 2005 10:05:25 AM |
| Object: |
Selective Separation |
Selective Separation
David Limbaugh
It would be shocking if those who worship at the altar of church-state
separation, while denying this nation's Christian heritage, would at
least acknowledge that they are selective as to which values they
object to the state promoting.
Until these avowed secularists start complaining about non-Christian,
values-laden instruction in public schools, they'll come up short in
the credibility department. When public schools endorse New Age ideas
or the radical homosexual agenda, for example, the separationists are
nowhere to be found.
Story Continues Below
Where were they, for instance, when Newton North High School in
Newtonville, Mass., held a "Transgender, Bisexual, Gay and Lesbian
Awareness Day," ("To BGLAD Day") in mid-December? On that day, students
were allowed - some would say "encouraged" - to attend workshops
and assemblies in lieu of their regular classes, in which speakers
would "make students feel good about homosexuality, bisexuality and
transgenderism."
Why weren't separationists upset that parents weren't forewarned about
this glorious event? A school spokesman admitted that parents weren't
notified, but said the event had been mentioned on the school's Web
site and listed in event calendars.
Why didn't separationists complain that the school is trying to
indoctrinate students on issues many consider to have spiritual and
ethical implications? The online school calendar has a link containing
information about BGLAD Day, including this statement: "Statistically,
one in 10 students at this school are not straight. Teenage life is
complicated enough, but how does it differ for GLBT teens? Come to this
panel and find out."
Surely the school's administrators are aware that this widely
disseminated assertion that 10 percent of the population is homosexual
has been thoroughly discredited at best, and vigorously disputed at
worst. Nevertheless, there is not so much as a qualifier, much less a
disclaimer, accompanying the statement.
Other activities listed for the day included: "Little Theatre: Life
Outside the Gender Norm: What happens when one's gender identity does
not match their sex? In this session, speakers will talk about their
experiences with gender identity and expression"; "Out at the Old
Ballgame: Athletes and coaches discuss what it's like to be GLBT in the
gym, on the field, and on the road"; "Color Me Queer," and others.
During one session, a speaker reportedly said he decided to "come out"
as a "gay boy" based on the example of his "role model" brother. He
also described how he fell in love with his sister's husband. This is
not just a presentation of the homosexual lifestyle in a favorable
light, but active recruitment - proselytizing.
Two parents who objected to the event were ejected from campus after
one - Kim Cariani - tried to videotape a session. According to
Cariani, "They took the two of us and pulled us out and gave us one
minute to leave, and if we came back on the property, we would be
arrested for trespassing."
What are the activists trying to hide? Are they afraid their
indoctrination techniques will be exposed? If they believe in the
righteousness of their cause, shouldn't they invite the public's
scrutiny?
The school spokesman protested that the event was not mandatory, and
that while "classes were scheduled to attend ... if students are
uncomfortable or their parents are uncomfortable, the students can
instead go to the library."
Again, where are the zealous advocates for church-state separation?
Aren't they always the first to say that certain voluntary
Christian-based activities - prayer, recital of the Pledge,
invocation of Christ in a valedictory address - are objectionable
because those choosing not to participate will be stigmatized or made
to feel uncomfortable? Then what about those who choose to go to the
library? What about their discomfort? What about their stigmatization
as "homophobes"?
Can you imagine what would happen if a public school affirmatively
endorsed a workshop in which homosexuality were described as sinful? At
a similar event in a high school in Ann Arbor, Mich., in 2002,
officials wouldn't even allow a Roman Catholic student to participate
in a discussion because she said she was going to voice her disapproval
of homosexuality. We're not talking about the school endorsing her
opinion, mind you, but just allowing her to speak her mind. It
wouldn't, but chose instead to suppress her speech and religious
freedom.
These examples are just a few of the many proving that many
separationists are not about vindicating constitutional rights, but
indoctrination, mind control and suppression of opposing values.
If we're going to accede to the removal of Christ from public schools,
can't we at least demand that the state not endorse contrary values?
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| User: "Al Klein" |
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| Title: Re: Selective Separation |
17 Feb 2005 10:08:52 PM |
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On 17 Feb 2005 08:05:25 -0800, "Rob Wade" <rob_c_wade_03@yahoo.com>
said in alt.atheism:
Selective Separation
David Limbaugh
It would be shocking if those who worship at the altar of church-state
separation, while denying this nation's Christian heritage, would at
least acknowledge that they are selective as to which values they
object to the state promoting.
He's either mistaking "values" for "religion" or, more likely, knowing
that his audience doesn't know the difference, equivocating.
In either case, he makes used car salesmen look like the epitome of
honesty.
--
rukbat at verizon dot net
"religion did for *****, what Stonehenge did for rocks"
- The World Famous Tink
(random sig, produced by SigChanger)
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| User: "Roedy Green" |
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| Title: Re: Selective Separation |
17 Feb 2005 12:56:48 PM |
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On 17 Feb 2005 08:05:25 -0800, "Rob Wade" <rob_c_wade_03@yahoo.com>
wrote or quoted :
It would be shocking if those who worship at the altar of church-state
separation, while denying this nation's Christian heritage, would at
least acknowledge that they are selective as to which values they
object to the state promoting.
"There are two visions of America. One precedes our founding fathers
and finds its roots in the harshness of our puritan past. It is very
suspicious of freedom, uncomfortable with diversity, hostile to
science, unfriendly to reason, contemptuous of personal autonomy. It
sees America as a religious nation. It views patriotism as allegiance
to God. It secretly adores coercion and conformity. Despite our
constitution, despite the legacy of the Enlightenment, it appeals to
millions of Americans and threatens our freedom.
The other vision finds its roots in the spirit of our founding
revolution and in the leaders of this nation who embraced the age of
reason. It loves freedom, encourages diversity, embraces science and
affirms the dignity and rights of every individual. It sees America as
a moral nation, neither completely religious nor completely secular.
It defines patriotism as love of country and of the people who make it
strong. It defends all citizens against unjust coercion and irrational
conformity.
This second vision is our vision. It is the vision of a free society.
We must be bold enough to proclaim it and strong enough to defend it
against all its enemies."
~ Rabbi Sherwin Wine
"Never in human history have such genocide and cruelty been witnessed.
Such a genocide was never seen in the time of the pharaohs nor
of Hitler nor of Mussolini."
~ Mehmet Elkatmi, head of Turkish parliament's human rights commission
on Bush's genocide in the Iraq war. 2004-11-28
--
Canadian Mind Products, Roedy Green.
See http://mindprod.com/iraq.html photos of Bush's war crimes
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| User: "Hugo S. Cunningham" |
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| Title: Re: Selective Separation |
17 Feb 2005 10:38:18 PM |
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On Thu, 17 Feb 2005 18:56:48 GMT, Roedy Green
<look-on@mindprod.com.invalid> wrote:
[...]
"There are two visions of America. One precedes our founding fathers
and finds its roots in the harshness of our puritan past.
[...]
The other vision finds its roots in the spirit of our founding
revolution and in the leaders of this nation who embraced the age of
reason.
[...]
This second vision is our vision. It is the vision of a free society.
We must be bold enough to proclaim it and strong enough to defend it
against all its enemies."
~ Rabbi Sherwin Wine
"Never in human history have such genocide and cruelty been witnessed.
Such a genocide was never seen in the time of the pharaohs nor
of Hitler nor of Mussolini."
~ Mehmet Elkatmi, head of Turkish parliament's human rights commission
on Bush's genocide in the Iraq war. 2004-11-28
And what, pray tell, does Mr. Elkatmi have to say about Turkey's
genocide against Armenians? And Turkey's not-quite-genocidal
repression of the Kurds?
Memo to Mr. Green--
Some of your posts make reasonable points. They are not enhanced,
however, by a sig from such a vile and contemptible hypocrite as Mr.
Elkatmi.
--Hugo S. Cunningham
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| User: "No One" |
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| Title: Re: Selective Separation |
17 Feb 2005 11:47:56 PM |
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(Hugo S. Cunningham) writes:
On Thu, 17 Feb 2005 18:56:48 GMT, Roedy Green
<look-on@mindprod.com.invalid> wrote:
"Never in human history have such genocide and cruelty been witnessed.
Such a genocide was never seen in the time of the pharaohs nor
of Hitler nor of Mussolini."
~ Mehmet Elkatmi, head of Turkish parliament's human rights commission
on Bush's genocide in the Iraq war. 2004-11-28
And what, pray tell, does Mr. Elkatmi have to say about Turkey's
genocide against Armenians? And Turkey's not-quite-genocidal
repression of the Kurds?
Probably very little if he doesn't want to end up in a political
prison. See <http://hrw.org/doc/?t=europe&c=turkey>. The question
you should ask is whether Mr. Elkatmi is seriously working towards
improving Turkey's human rights record, even if he has to be low
key about some of the problems, past or present.
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| User: "Boy Toy" |
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| Title: Re: Selective Separation |
18 Feb 2005 03:34:35 PM |
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On Fri, 18 Feb 2005 04:38:18 GMT, (Hugo S.
Cunningham) wrote in message <42156faa.561374656@news.newsguy.com>
On Thu, 17 Feb 2005 18:56:48 GMT, Roedy Green
<look-on@mindprod.com.invalid> wrote:
[...]
"There are two visions of America. One precedes our founding fathers
and finds its roots in the harshness of our puritan past.
[...]
The other vision finds its roots in the spirit of our founding
revolution and in the leaders of this nation who embraced the age of
reason.
[...]
This second vision is our vision. It is the vision of a free society.
We must be bold enough to proclaim it and strong enough to defend it
against all its enemies."
~ Rabbi Sherwin Wine
"Never in human history have such genocide and cruelty been witnessed.
Such a genocide was never seen in the time of the pharaohs nor
of Hitler nor of Mussolini."
~ Mehmet Elkatmi, head of Turkish parliament's human rights commission
on Bush's genocide in the Iraq war. 2004-11-28
And what, pray tell, does Mr. Elkatmi have to say about Turkey's
genocide against Armenians? And Turkey's not-quite-genocidal
repression of the Kurds?
Memo to Mr. Green--
Some of your posts make reasonable points. They are not enhanced,
however, by a sig from such a vile and contemptible hypocrite as Mr.
Elkatmi.
--Hugo S. Cunningham
I have to agree. I couldn't understand why anybody would use a such a
source for a quote regarding genocide. Indeed, Armenia and the Kurds
immediately spring to mind. Turkey still has a long way to go to
reach credibility as a democratic nation.
--
Boy Toy
Toxic Toyz 4 Nasty Boyz
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| User: "LisaKay" |
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| Title: Re: Selective Separation |
17 Feb 2005 03:15:17 PM |
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Roedy Green wrote:
On 17 Feb 2005 08:05:25 -0800, "Rob Wade" <rob_c_wade_03@yahoo.com>
wrote or quoted :
It would be shocking if those who worship at the altar of
church-state
separation, while denying this nation's Christian heritage, would at
least acknowledge that they are selective as to which values they
object to the state promoting.
"There are two visions of America. One precedes our founding fathers
and finds its roots in the harshness of our puritan past. It is very
suspicious of freedom, uncomfortable with diversity, hostile to
science, unfriendly to reason, contemptuous of personal autonomy. It
sees America as a religious nation. It views patriotism as allegiance
to God. It secretly adores coercion and conformity. Despite our
constitution, despite the legacy of the Enlightenment, it appeals to
millions of Americans and threatens our freedom.
The other vision finds its roots in the spirit of our founding
revolution and in the leaders of this nation who embraced the age of
reason. It loves freedom, encourages diversity, embraces science and
affirms the dignity and rights of every individual. It sees America
as
a moral nation, neither completely religious nor completely secular.
It defines patriotism as love of country and of the people who make
it
strong. It defends all citizens against unjust coercion and
irrational
conformity.
This second vision is our vision. It is the vision of a free society.
We must be bold enough to proclaim it and strong enough to defend it
against all its enemies."
~ Rabbi Sherwin Wine
I like this quote... I've been thinking a similar thing recently, but I
couldn't put it into words quite so well. There is a foundation of the
US that the Puritans brought, and there is a foundation built during
the enlightenment. I still don't understand why we've moved away from
the enlightenment and toward the Puritan ideals. I have a vague
feeling that money has a lot to do with it. (I hope Crazy Alec doesn't
read this.)
-LisaKay
aa #2054
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