| Topic: |
Religions > Atheism |
| User: |
"" |
| Date: |
01 May 2007 07:40:23 AM |
| Object: |
Sep C&S History lessons #7 |
J. Madison Religion & State
(emphasis -CAPS- added by me)
DECEMBER 3, 1816
And may I not be allowed to add to this gratifying spectacle that I
shall read in the character of the American people, in their devotion to
true liberty and to the Constitution which is its palladium, sure presages
that the destined career of my country will exhibit a Government pursuing
the public good as its sole object, and regulating its means by the great
principles consecrated in its charter and by those moral principles to
which they are so well allied; a Government which watches over the purity
of elections, the freedom of speech and of the press, the trial by jury,
AND THE EQUAL INTERDICT AGAINST ENCROACHMENTS AND
COMPACTS BETWEEN RELIGION AND THE STATE; which maintains
inviolably the maxims of public faith, the security of persons and
property, and encourages in every authorized mode that general diffusion of
knowledge which guarantees to public liberty its permanency and to those
who possess the blessing the true enjoyment of it; a Government which
avoids intrusions on the internal repose of other nations, and repels them
from its own; which does justice to all nations with a readiness equal to
the firmness with which it requires justice from them; and which, whilst it
refines its domestic code from every ingredient not congenial with the
precepts of an enlightened age and the sentiments of a virtuous people,
seeks by appeals to reason and by its liberal examples to infuse into the
law which governs the civilized world a spirit which may diminish the
frequency or circumscribe the calamities of war, and meliorate the social
and beneficent relations of peace; a Government, in.a word, whose conduct
within and without may bespeak the most noble of all ambitions'-that of
promoting peace on earth and good will to man.
These contemplations, sweetening the remnant of my days, will
animate my prayers for the happiness of my beloved country, and a
perpetuity of the institutions under which it is enjoyed.
JAMES MADISON.
(SOURCE OF INFORMATION: Excerpt from James Madison's 8th Annual Message to
Congress. A compilation of the Messages and Papers of the Presidents,
1789-1897, James D Richardson ed. Volume I, Bureau of National Literature,
NY (1897) 564-565
To the above add the following:
Madison's vetoes: Some of The First Official Meanings Assigned to The
Establishment Clause
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/madvetos.htm
Madison didn't even want to count ministers and priests in the census
because he felt it conflicted with the seperation of church and state.
__________________________________________________________
FEBRUARY 2, 1790
HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES
Madison's interest in preserving the separation between Church and State
led, as we shall see later, to his having some misgivings regarding Federal
Thanksgiving Day proclamations.(294) It also led to a very interesting
debate in the House of Representatives, February 2, 1790, when the question
of the Federal census was under consideration. The bill, as reported,
provided for the enumeration of farmers, mechanics, and other groups, but
did not include the learned professions. Theodore Sedgwick of Massachusetts
(1746-1813) suggested that it should "specify every class of citizens, into
which the community was divided, in order to ascertain the actual state of
the society." Mr. Madison, in his reply, said:
"The gentleman from Massachusetts has asked, why the learned professions
were not included? I have no objection to giving a column to the general
body. I think the work would be rendered more complete by the addition, and
if the decision of such a motion turned upon my voice, they shall be added.
But it may nevertheless be observed, that in such a character they can
never be objects of legislative attention or cognizance. As to those who
are employed in teaching and inculcating the duties ot religion, there may
be some indelicacy in singling them out, as the (General Government is
proscribed from interfering, in any manner whatever, in matters respecting
religion; and it may be thought to do this, in ascertaining who, and who
are not ministers of the Gospel. Conceiving the extension of the plan to be
useful however], and not difficult, I hope it may meet the ready
concurrence of this House."(295)
Here, as in the case of the Thanksgiving Day proclamations, he had some
question as to the advisability of including a reference to ministers of
religion in the census because of his strong belief in the entire
separation of Church and State. He was no extremist in such matters if the
fundamental principles of separation were observed, and his sense of what
was fitting led him to see that the arguments in favor of both actions
probably outweighed those against them. The case of chaplaincies to be
supported from public funds seemed to him more serious and he opposed their
appointment.
His reasons were stated at some length in an essay on the subject first
printed only a generation ago. He asked the question, "is the appointment
of chaplains to the two Houses of Congress consistent with the
Constitution, and with the pure prinsiple of religious freedom)" Madison
made it clear that his opposition to the chaplaincy, whether in Congress or
in the Army and Navy, was not to having services for these groups but to
their being conducted as a function of government and paid for by public
funds.
Similarly, he opposed the incorporation by the Federal government of
religious institutions, believing that such action would tend to break down
the "wall of separation" between Church and State. He sent special messages
to Congress vetoing proposals for incorporating the Episcopal Church in
Georgetown near Washington, and also for setting apart land in Mississippi
territory for a Baptist congregation.(297)
SOURCE OF INFORMATION: CHURCH AND STATE IN THE UNITED STATES VOLUME I Anson
Phelps Stokes pages 346-347 Haper & Brothers New York, (1950)
************************************************************
James Madison on Separation of Church and State
Direct references to separation to be found in the writings of James
Madison
----------------------------------------
OCTOBER 1, 1803
Notes for annual message, Oct. 17, 1803: alterations and additions, etc [1]
(3) after "assure"-are proposed "in due season, and under prudent
arrangements, important aids to our Treasury, as well as," an ample etc.
Quere: if the two or three succeeding paragraphs be not more
adapted to the separate and subsequent communication, if adopted as above
suggested.
(4) For the first sentence, may be substituted "In the territory between
the Mississippi and the Ohio another valuable acquisition has been made by
a treaty etc."[3.] As it stands, it does not sufficiently distinguish the
nature of the one acquisition from that of the other, and seems to imply
that the acquisition from France was wholly on the other side of the
Mississippi
May it not be as well to omit the detail of the stipulated
considerations, and particularly that of the Roman Catholic Pastor. The
jealousy of some may see in it a principle, not according with the
exemption of Religion from Civil power. In the Indian Treaty it will be
less noticed than in a President's speech.[4.]
FOOTNOTES:
[1.] For TJ's third annual message to Congress, Oct. 17, 1803, see Ford,
VIII, pp. 266-7)
[3.] TI's message announced the acquisition of territory by treaty from the
Kaskaskia Indians; see
Ford, VIII, pp. 269-70.
[4.] TJ accepted JM's suggestion to omit any discussion of Indian treaty
requirements to maintain a Roman Catholic priest, leaving the stipulations
in the treaty to "the competence of both
houses.... as soon as the senate shall have advised its ratification"; see
ibid.
(SOURCE OF INFORMATION: James Madison to Thomas Jefferson, Washington, Oct.
1, 1803, Notes for annual message, Oct. 17, 1803: alterations and
additions, etc.[1.],
The Republic of Letters, the Correspondence between Thomas Jefferson and
James Madison, 1776-1826, Edited by James Morton Smith, Vol. II, 1790
-1804, W. W. Norton & Company, New York, London, (1995) pp 1297-98)
---------------------------------------------------
JUNE 3, 1811
"To the Baptist Churches on Neal's Greek on Black Creek, North Carolina I
have received, fellow-citizens, your address, approving my objection to the
Bill containing a grant of public land to the Baptist Church at Salem
Meeting House, Mississippi Territory. Having always regarded the practical
distinction between Religion and Civil Government as essential to the
purity of both, and as guaranteed by the Constitution of the United States,
I could not have other wise discharged my duty on the
occasion which presented itself"
(SOURCE OF INFORMATION: Letter to Baptist Churches in North Carolina, June
3, 1811. Letters And Other Writings of James Madison Fourth President Of
The United States In Four Volumes Published By the Order Of Congress,
Vol..II, J. B. Lippincott & Co., Philadelphia, (1865) pp 511-512)
-----------------------------------------------------------
MARCH 2, 1819
"The civil Government, though bereft of everything like an associated
hierarchy, possesses the requisite stability, and performs its functions
with complete success, whilst the number, the industry, and the morality of
the priesthood, and the devotion of the people, have been manifestly
increased by the total separation of the church from the State."
(SOURCE OF INFORMATION: Excert of a letter to Robert Walsh from James
Madison. MARCH 2, 1819 Letters and Other writings of James Madison, in
Four Volumes, Published by Order of Congress. VOL. III, J. B. Lippincott &
Co. Philadelphia, (1865), pp 121-126. James Madison on Religious Liberty,
Robert S.Alley, Prometheus Books, Buffalo, N.Y. (1985) pp 82-83)
----------------------------------------------------------
1817-1833
"Strongly guarded as is the separation between religion and Gov't in the
Constitution of the United States the danger of encroachment by
Ecclesiastical Bodies, may be illustrated by precedents' already furnished
in their short history"
(SOURCE OF INFORMATION: Excerpt from Madison's Detached Memoranda. This
document was discovered in 1946 among the papers of William Cabell Rives, a
biographer of Madison. Scholars date these observations in Madison's hand
sometime between 1817 and 1832. The entire document was published by
Elizabeth Fleet in the William and Mary Quarterly of October 1946.
--------------------------------------------------------------------
JULY 10, 1822
"Every new and successful example, therefore, of a perfect separation
between the ecclesiastical and civil matters, is of importance; and I have
no doubt that every new example will succeed, as every past one has done,
in showing that religion and Government will both exist in greater purity
the less they are mixed together"
(SOURCE OF INFORMATION: Excerpt of letter to Edward Livingston from James
Madison, July 10, 1822. Letters and Other writings of James Madison, in
Four Volumes, Published by Order of Congress. VOL. III, J. B. Lippincott &
Co. Philadelphia, (1865), pp 273-276. James Madison on Religious Liberty,
Robert S.Alley, Prometheus Books, Buffalo, N.Y. (1985) pp 82-83)
--------------------------------------------------------------
SEPTEMBER 1833
"I must admit moreover that it may not be easy, in every possible case, to
trace the line of separation between the rights of religion and the civil
authority with such distinctness as to avoid collisions and doubts on
unessential points. The tendency to a usurpation on one side or the other
or to a corrupting coalition or alliance between them will be best guarded
against by entire abstinence of the government from interference in any way
whatever, beyond the necessity of preserving public order and protecting
each sect against trespasses on its legal rights by others".
(SOURCE OF INFORMATION: Letter written by James Madison to Rev. Jasper
Adams, September, 1833.Writings of James Madison, edited by Gaillard Hunt,
[not sure what the volume number is but have enough information presented
here to locate the letter] microform Z1236.L53, pp 484-488. )
*********************************************************************
followed by
Some Thoughts on Religion and Law
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/bthot-lr.htm"
***************************************************************
You are invited to check out the following:
The Rise of the Theocratic States of America
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/theocracy.htm
American Theocrats - Past and Present
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/theocrats.htm
The Constitutional Principle: Separation of Church and State
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/index.html
[and to join the discussion group for the above site and/or Separation of
Church and State in general, listed below]
HRSepCnS · Historical Reality SepChurch&State
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HRSepCnS/
***************************************************************
.. . . You can't understand a phrase such as "Congress shall make no law
respecting an establishment of religion" by syllogistic reasoning. Words
take their meaning from social as well as textual contexts, which is why "a
page of history is worth a volume of logic." New York Trust Co. v. Eisner,
256 U.S. 345, 349, 41 S.Ct. 506, 507, 65 L.Ed. 963 (1921) (Holmes, J.).
Sherman v. Community Consol. Dist. 21, 980 F.2d 437, 445 (7th Cir. 1992)
.. . .
****************************************************************
USAF LT. COL (Ret) Buffman (Glen P. Goffin) wrote
"You pilot always into an unknown future;
facts are your only clue. Get the facts!"
That philosophy 'snipit' helped to get me, and my crew, through a good
many combat missions and far too many scary, inflight, emergencies.
It has also played a significant role in helping me to expose the
plethora of radical Christian propaganda and lies that we find at
almost every media turn.
*****************************************************************
THE CONSTITUTIONAL PRINCIPLE:
SEPARATION OF CHURCH AND STATE
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/index.html
****************************************************************
.
|
|
| User: "" |
|
| Title: Re: Sep C&S History lessons #7 |
04 May 2007 05:34:04 AM |
|
|
Wide Eyed in Wonder <kands00@hotmail.com> wrote:
:|On May 1, 7:40 am, wrote:
:|> J. Madison Religion & State
:|> (emphasis -CAPS- added by me)
:|>
:|> DECEMBER 3, 1816
:|>
:|> And may I not be allowed to add to this gratifying spectacle that I
:|> shall read in the character of the American people, in their devotion to
:|> true liberty and to the Constitution which is its palladium, sure presages
:|> that the destined career of my country will exhibit a Government pursuing
:|> the public good as its sole object, and regulating its means by the great
:|> principles consecrated in its charter and by those moral principles to
:|> which they are so well allied; a Government which watches over the purity
:|> of elections, the freedom of speech and of the press, the trial by jury,
:|> AND THE EQUAL INTERDICT AGAINST ENCROACHMENTS AND
:|> COMPACTS BETWEEN RELIGION AND THE STATE; which maintains
:|> inviolably the maxims of public faith, the security of persons and
:|> property, and encourages in every authorized mode that general diffusion of
:|> knowledge which guarantees to public liberty its permanency and to those
:|> who possess the blessing the true enjoyment of it; a Government which
:|> avoids intrusions on the internal repose of other nations, and repels them
:|> from its own; which does justice to all nations with a readiness equal to
:|> the firmness with which it requires justice from them; and which, whilst it
:|> refines its domestic code from every ingredient not congenial with the
:|> precepts of an enlightened age and the sentiments of a virtuous people,
:|> seeks by appeals to reason and by its liberal examples to infuse into the
:|> law which governs the civilized world a spirit which may diminish the
:|> frequency or circumscribe the calamities of war, and meliorate the social
:|> and beneficent relations of peace; a Government, in.a word, whose conduct
:|> within and without may bespeak the most noble of all ambitions'-that of
:|> promoting peace on earth and good will to man.
:|> These contemplations, sweetening the remnant of my days, will
:|> animate my prayers for the happiness of my beloved country, and a
:|> perpetuity of the institutions under which it is enjoyed.
:|>
:|> JAMES MADISON.
:|> (SOURCE OF INFORMATION: Excerpt from James Madison's 8th Annual Message to
:|> Congress. A compilation of the Messages and Papers of the Presidents,
:|> 1789-1897, James D Richardson ed. Volume I, Bureau of National Literature,
:|> NY (1897) 564-565
:|>
:|> To the above add the following:
:|>
:|> Madison's vetoes: Some of The First Official Meanings Assigned to The
:|> Establishment Clausehttp://members.tripod.com/~candst/madvetos.htm
:|>
:|> Madison didn't even want to count ministers and priests in the census
:|> because he felt it conflicted with the seperation of church and state.
:|> __________________________________________________________
:|> FEBRUARY 2, 1790
:|> HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES
:|>
:|> Madison's interest in preserving the separation between Church and State
:|> led, as we shall see later, to his having some misgivings regarding Federal
:|> Thanksgiving Day proclamations.(294) It also led to a very interesting
:|> debate in the House of Representatives, February 2, 1790, when the question
:|> of the Federal census was under consideration. The bill, as reported,
:|> provided for the enumeration of farmers, mechanics, and other groups, but
:|> did not include the learned professions. Theodore Sedgwick of Massachusetts
:|> (1746-1813) suggested that it should "specify every class of citizens, into
:|> which the community was divided, in order to ascertain the actual state of
:|> the society." Mr. Madison, in his reply, said:
:|>
:|> "The gentleman from Massachusetts has asked, why the learned professions
:|> were not included? I have no objection to giving a column to the general
:|> body. I think the work would be rendered more complete by the addition, and
:|> if the decision of such a motion turned upon my voice, they shall be added.
:|> But it may nevertheless be observed, that in such a character they can
:|> never be objects of legislative attention or cognizance. As to those who
:|> are employed in teaching and inculcating the duties ot religion, there may
:|> be some indelicacy in singling them out, as the (General Government is
:|> proscribed from interfering, in any manner whatever, in matters respecting
:|> religion; and it may be thought to do this, in ascertaining who, and who
:|> are not ministers of the Gospel. Conceiving the extension of the plan to be
:|> useful however], and not difficult, I hope it may meet the ready
:|> concurrence of this House."(295)
:|>
:|> Here, as in the case of the Thanksgiving Day proclamations, he had some
:|> question as to the advisability of including a reference to ministers of
:|> religion in the census because of his strong belief in the entire
:|> separation of Church and State. He was no extremist in such matters if the
:|> fundamental principles of separation were observed, and his sense of what
:|> was fitting led him to see that the arguments in favor of both actions
:|> probably outweighed those against them. The case of chaplaincies to be
:|> supported from public funds seemed to him more serious and he opposed their
:|> appointment.
:|>
:|> His reasons were stated at some length in an essay on the subject first
:|> printed only a generation ago. He asked the question, "is the appointment
:|> of chaplains to the two Houses of Congress consistent with the
:|> Constitution, and with the pure prinsiple of religious freedom)" Madison
:|> made it clear that his opposition to the chaplaincy, whether in Congress or
:|> in the Army and Navy, was not to having services for these groups but to
:|> their being conducted as a function of government and paid for by public
:|> funds.
:|>
:|> Similarly, he opposed the incorporation by the Federal government of
:|> religious institutions, believing that such action would tend to break down
:|> the "wall of separation" between Church and State. He sent special messages
:|> to Congress vetoing proposals for incorporating the Episcopal Church in
:|> Georgetown near Washington, and also for setting apart land in Mississippi
:|> territory for a Baptist congregation.(297)
:|> SOURCE OF INFORMATION: CHURCH AND STATE IN THE UNITED STATES VOLUME I Anson
:|> Phelps Stokes pages 346-347 Haper & Brothers New York, (1950)
:|>
:|> ************************************************************
:|> James Madison on Separation of Church and State
:|> Direct references to separation to be found in the writings of James
:|> Madison
:|> ----------------------------------------
:|> OCTOBER 1, 1803
[snip]
:|Madison was on the board and voted in favor of setting up religious
:|education at the University of Virginia (Jefferson's proposal) with
:|equal access to all religions.
Your unsubstantiated claim is noted.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ordinary or extraordinary claims require ordinary or extraordinary proof.
If you're going to claim something and especially something outlandish
you're going to need some pretty extraordinary and/or irrefutable proof to
back up such a claim. "Where's the beef?" Where's the ordinary or
extraordinary proof for their ordinary or extraordinary claims? If one is
not responding with ordinary or extraordinary, *factual* proof, then the
claim is not worth considering
----------------------------------------------------------------------
[ as Homer@nospam said]
Why is asking for "proof" considered truculence? Do you consider it
truculence for a judge to ask for evidence in a trial. Would you rather
that
people just testified that they believed in the guilt of the suspect?
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
[as Gray Shockley said:]
Your "opinion" is not an adequate citation.
You forgot your citations.
Or, are your opinions more valid than facts?
You do realize, do you not?, that opinion without substantiation is just
propaganda for those without critical thinking abilities and originate with
those who are attempting to manipulate rather than those who are attempting
to clarify.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
USAF LT. COL (Ret) Buffman (Glen P. Goffin) wrote
"You pilot always into an unknown future;
facts are your only clue. Get the facts!"
That philosophy 'snipit' helped to get me, and my crew, through a good
many combat missions and far too many scary, inflight, emergencies.
It has also played a significant role in helping me to expose the
plethora of radical Christian propaganda and lies that we find at
almost every media turn.
*****************************************************************
:| Madison said of God, "...that Almighty
:|Being whose power regulates the destiny of nations," while President
:|(Inaugural Address).
Your unsubstantiated claim is noted.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ordinary or extraordinary claims require ordinary or extraordinary proof.
If you're going to claim something and especially something outlandish
you're going to need some pretty extraordinary and/or irrefutable proof to
back up such a claim. "Where's the beef?" Where's the ordinary or
extraordinary proof for their ordinary or extraordinary claims? If one is
not responding with ordinary or extraordinary, *factual* proof, then the
claim is not worth considering
----------------------------------------------------------------------
[ as Homer@nospam said]
Why is asking for "proof" considered truculence? Do you consider it
truculence for a judge to ask for evidence in a trial. Would you rather
that
people just testified that they believed in the guilt of the suspect?
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
[as Gray Shockley said:]
Your "opinion" is not an adequate citation.
You forgot your citations.
Or, are your opinions more valid than facts?
You do realize, do you not?, that opinion without substantiation is just
propaganda for those without critical thinking abilities and originate with
those who are attempting to manipulate rather than those who are attempting
to clarify.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
USAF LT. COL (Ret) Buffman (Glen P. Goffin) wrote
"You pilot always into an unknown future;
facts are your only clue. Get the facts!"
That philosophy 'snipit' helped to get me, and my crew, through a good
many combat missions and far too many scary, inflight, emergencies.
It has also played a significant role in helping me to expose the
plethora of radical Christian propaganda and lies that we find at
almost every media turn.
*****************************************************************
:| And, according to the notes on the Marsh v.
:|Chambers decision that said Chaplains were constitutional, he voted in
:|favor of PAYING the first Chaplains of the U.S. from federal funds.
Chaplains
An Overview from 1774 to early 1800's
* Chaplains and Congress
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/chaptest.htm
* The Political Move That Backfired
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/backfire.htm
* Duche's Letter To Washington
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/duche.htm
First Federal Congress (1789)
Chaplains
* Chief Justice Burger, I Would Like You To Meet Mr. Madison
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/meet.htm
* Discrepancies
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/discrep.htm
Excerpts from James Madison's Detached Memoranda (written after 1817)
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/detach.htm
o James Madison And National Religion
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/madnational.htm
Letter to Edward Livingston
Madison's letter to Edward Livingston, July 10, 1822.
by James Madison
http://www.stephenjaygould.org/ctrl/madison_livingston.html
Revisiting Marsh v. Chambers
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/marshchm.htm
* A Religious Bias Suit by Evangelical Chaplains Against the Navy: The
Law Confronts Denominational Diversity
Thursday, Aug. 29, 2002
http://writ.news.findlaw.com/hamilton/20020829.html
***************************************************************
You are invited to check out the following:
The Rise of the Theocratic States of America
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/theocracy.htm
American Theocrats - Past and Present
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/theocrats.htm
The Constitutional Principle: Separation of Church and State
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/index.html
[and to join the discussion group for the above site and/or Separation of
Church and State in general, listed below]
HRSepCnS · Historical Reality SepChurch&State
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HRSepCnS/
***************************************************************
.. . . You can't understand a phrase such as "Congress shall make no law
respecting an establishment of religion" by syllogistic reasoning. Words
take their meaning from social as well as textual contexts, which is why "a
page of history is worth a volume of logic." New York Trust Co. v. Eisner,
256 U.S. 345, 349, 41 S.Ct. 506, 507, 65 L.Ed. 963 (1921) (Holmes, J.).
Sherman v. Community Consol. Dist. 21, 980 F.2d 437, 445 (7th Cir. 1992)
.. . .
****************************************************************
USAF LT. COL (Ret) Buffman (Glen P. Goffin) wrote
"You pilot always into an unknown future;
facts are your only clue. Get the facts!"
That philosophy 'snipit' helped to get me, and my crew, through a good
many combat missions and far too many scary, inflight, emergencies.
It has also played a significant role in helping me to expose the
plethora of radical Christian propaganda and lies that we find at
almost every media turn.
*****************************************************************
THE CONSTITUTIONAL PRINCIPLE:
SEPARATION OF CHURCH AND STATE
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/index.html
****************************************************************
.
|
|
|
| User: "Wide Eyed in Wonder" |
|
| Title: Re: Sep C&S History lessons #7 |
04 May 2007 09:07:11 AM |
|
|
On May 4, 5:34 am, wrote:
Wide Eyed in Wonder <kand...@hotmail.com> wrote:
:|On May 1, 7:40 am, wrote:
:|> J. Madison Religion & State
:|> (emphasis -CAPS- added by me)
:|>
:|> DECEMBER 3, 1816
:|>
:|> And may I not be allowed to add to this gratifying spectacle that I
:|> shall read in the character of the American people, in their devotio=
n to
:|> true liberty and to the Constitution which is its palladium, sure pr=
esages
:|> that the destined career of my country will exhibit a Government pur=
suing
:|> the public good as its sole object, and regulating its means by the =
great
:|> principles consecrated in its charter and by those moral principles =
to
:|> which they are so well allied; a Government which watches over the p=
urity
:|> of elections, the freedom of speech and of the press, the trial by j=
ury,
:|> AND THE EQUAL INTERDICT AGAINST ENCROACHMENTS AND
:|> COMPACTS BETWEEN RELIGION AND THE STATE; which maintains
:|> inviolably the maxims of public faith, the security of persons and
:|> property, and encourages in every authorized mode that general diffu=
sion of
:|> knowledge which guarantees to public liberty its permanency and to t=
hose
:|> who possess the blessing the true enjoyment of it; a Government which
:|> avoids intrusions on the internal repose of other nations, and repel=
s them
:|> from its own; which does justice to all nations with a readiness equ=
al to
:|> the firmness with which it requires justice from them; and which, wh=
ilst it
:|> refines its domestic code from every ingredient not congenial with t=
he
:|> precepts of an enlightened age and the sentiments of a virtuous peop=
le,
:|> seeks by appeals to reason and by its liberal examples to infuse int=
o the
:|> law which governs the civilized world a spirit which may diminish the
:|> frequency or circumscribe the calamities of war, and meliorate the s=
ocial
:|> and beneficent relations of peace; a Government, in.a word, whose co=
nduct
:|> within and without may bespeak the most noble of all ambitions'-that=
of
:|> promoting peace on earth and good will to man.
:|> These contemplations, sweetening the remnant of my days, will
:|> animate my prayers for the happiness of my beloved country, and a
:|> perpetuity of the institutions under which it is enjoyed.
:|>
:|> JAMES MADISON.
:|> (SOURCE OF INFORMATION: Excerpt from James Madison's 8th Annual Mess=
age to
:|> Congress. A compilation of the Messages and Papers of the Presidents,
:|> 1789-1897, James D Richardson ed. Volume I, Bureau of National Liter=
ature,
:|> NY (1897) 564-565
:|>
:|> To the above add the following:
:|>
:|> Madison's vetoes: Some of The First Official Meanings Assigned to The
:|> Establishment Clausehttp://members.tripod.com/~candst/madvetos.htm
:|>
:|> Madison didn't even want to count ministers and priests in the cen=
sus
:|> because he felt it conflicted with the seperation of church and stat=
e=2E
:|> __________________________________________________________
:|> FEBRUARY 2, 1790
:|> HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES
:|>
:|> Madison's interest in preserving the separation between Church and =
State
:|> led, as we shall see later, to his having some misgivings regarding =
Federal
:|> Thanksgiving Day proclamations.(294) It also led to a very interesti=
ng
:|> debate in the House of Representatives, February 2, 1790, when the q=
uestion
:|> of the Federal census was under consideration. The bill, as reported,
:|> provided for the enumeration of farmers, mechanics, and other groups=
, but
:|> did not include the learned professions. Theodore Sedgwick of Massac=
husetts
:|> (1746-1813) suggested that it should "specify every class of citizen=
s, into
:|> which the community was divided, in order to ascertain the actual st=
ate of
:|> the society." Mr. Madison, in his reply, said:
:|>
:|> "The gentleman from Massachusetts has asked, why the learned profes=
sions
:|> were not included? I have no objection to giving a column to the gen=
eral
:|> body. I think the work would be rendered more complete by the additi=
on, and
:|> if the decision of such a motion turned upon my voice, they shall be=
added.
:|> But it may nevertheless be observed, that in such a character they c=
an
:|> never be objects of legislative attention or cognizance. As to those=
who
:|> are employed in teaching and inculcating the duties ot religion, the=
re may
:|> be some indelicacy in singling them out, as the (General Government =
is
:|> proscribed from interfering, in any manner whatever, in matters resp=
ecting
:|> religion; and it may be thought to do this, in ascertaining who, and=
who
:|> are not ministers of the Gospel. Conceiving the extension of the pla=
n to be
:|> useful however], and not difficult, I hope it may meet the ready
:|> concurrence of this House."(295)
:|>
:|> Here, as in the case of the Thanksgiving Day proclamations, he had =
some
:|> question as to the advisability of including a reference to minister=
s of
:|> religion in the census because of his strong belief in the entire
:|> separation of Church and State. He was no extremist in such matters =
if the
:|> fundamental principles of separation were observed, and his sense of=
what
:|> was fitting led him to see that the arguments in favor of both actio=
ns
:|> probably outweighed those against them. The case of chaplaincies to =
be
:|> supported from public funds seemed to him more serious and he oppose=
d their
:|> appointment.
:|>
:|> His reasons were stated at some length in an essay on the subject =
first
:|> printed only a generation ago. He asked the question, "is the appoi=
ntment
:|> of chaplains to the two Houses of Congress consistent with the
:|> Constitution, and with the pure prinsiple of religious freedom)" Mad=
ison
:|> made it clear that his opposition to the chaplaincy, whether in Cong=
ress or
:|> in the Army and Navy, was not to having services for these groups bu=
t to
:|> their being conducted as a function of government and paid for by pu=
blic
:|> funds.
:|>
:|> Similarly, he opposed the incorporation by the Federal government of
:|> religious institutions, believing that such action would tend to bre=
ak down
:|> the "wall of separation" between Church and State. He sent special m=
essages
:|> to Congress vetoing proposals for incorporating the Episcopal Church=
in
:|> Georgetown near Washington, and also for setting apart land in Missi=
ssippi
:|> territory for a Baptist congregation.(297)
:|> SOURCE OF INFORMATION: CHURCH AND STATE IN THE UNITED STATES VOLUME =
I Anson
:|> Phelps Stokes pages 346-347 Haper & Brothers New York, (1950)
:|>
:|> ************************************************************
:|> James Madison on Separation of Church and State
:|> Direct references to separation to be found in the writings of James
:|> Madison
:|> ----------------------------------------
:|> OCTOBER 1, 1803
[snip]
:|Madison was on the board and voted in favor of setting up religious
:|education at the University of Virginia (Jefferson's proposal) with
:|equal access to all religions.
Your unsubstantiated claim is noted.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------=
------
Ordinary or extraordinary claims require ordinary or extraordinary proo=
f=2E
If you're going to claim something and especially something outlandish
you're going to need some pretty extraordinary and/or irrefutable proof to
back up such a claim. "Where's the beef?" Where's the ordinary or
extraordinary proof for their ordinary or extraordinary claims? If one is
not responding with ordinary or extraordinary, *factual* proof, then the
claim is not worth considering
----------------------------------------------------------------------
[ as Homer@nospam said]
Why is asking for "proof" considered truculence? Do you consider it
truculence for a judge to ask for evidence in a trial. Would you rather
that
people just testified that they believed in the guilt of the suspect?
-------------------------------------------------------------------------=
----
[as Gray Shockley said:]
Your "opinion" is not an adequate citation.
You forgot your citations.
Or, are your opinions more valid than facts?
You do realize, do you not?, that opinion without substantiation is just
propaganda for those without critical thinking abilities and originate wi=
th
those who are attempting to manipulate rather than those who are attempti=
ng
to clarify.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------=
----------
USAF LT. COL (Ret) Buffman (Glen P. Goffin) wrote
"You pilot always into an unknown future;
facts are your only clue. Get the facts!"
That philosophy 'snipit' helped to get me, and my crew, through a good
many combat missions and far too many scary, inflight, emergencies.
It has also played a significant role in helping me to expose the
plethora of radical Christian propaganda and lies that we find at
almost every media turn.
*****************************************************************
:| Madison said of God, "...that Almighty
:|Being whose power regulates the destiny of nations," while President
:|(Inaugural Address).
Your unsubstantiated claim is noted.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------=
------
Ordinary or extraordinary claims require ordinary or extraordinary proo=
f=2E
If you're going to claim something and especially something outlandish
you're going to need some pretty extraordinary and/or irrefutable proof to
back up such a claim. "Where's the beef?" Where's the ordinary or
extraordinary proof for their ordinary or extraordinary claims? If one is
not responding with ordinary or extraordinary, *factual* proof, then the
claim is not worth considering
----------------------------------------------------------------------
[ as Homer@nospam said]
Why is asking for "proof" considered truculence? Do you consider it
truculence for a judge to ask for evidence in a trial. Would you rather
that
people just testified that they believed in ...
read more =BB
I told you exactly where to look. You can call it unsustantiated if
you want to deceive yourself.
Ken Clifton
christiansuperhero.com
.
|
|
|
| User: "" |
|
| Title: Re: Sep C&S History lessons #7 |
08 May 2007 04:52:08 AM |
|
|
Wide Eyed in Wonder <kands00@hotmail.com> wrote:
:|I told you exactly where to look. You can call it unsustantiated if
:|you want to deceive yourself.
:|
:|Ken Clifton
:|christiansuperhero.com
You apprently forgot you posted this.
Hint, there is no cite given
You apparentl;y have never learned how to properly cite anything
(Inaugural Address). is not a proper or acceptable cite.
Try again dumb *****
The above is from the same guy who brought you this
Wide Eyed in Wonder <kands00@hotmail.com> wrote:
:|On May 4, 5:31 am, wrote:
:|> Wide Eyed in Wonder <kand...@hotmail.com> wrote:
:|>
:|>
:|>
:|> >:|On May 1, 7:13 am, wrote:
:|> >:|> Religion was become avowedly the attribute of man and not of a corpo
:|> >:|> Message #9272 of 9293
:|> >:|> 1888
:|> >:|>
:|> >:|> Bancroft on the Constitution
:|> >:|>
:|> >:|> "The Constitution establishes nothing that interferes with equality
:|> >:|> and individuality. It knows nothing of differences by descent, or
:|> >:|> opinions, of favored classes, or legalized religion, or the political
:|> >:|> power of property. It leaves the individual alongside of the
:|> >:|> individual. No nationality of character could take form, except on the
:|> >:|> principle of individuality, so that the mind might be free, and every
:|> >:|> faculty have the unlimited opportunity for its development and culture
:|> >:|> . . . .
:|> >:|> "The rule of individuality was extended as never before . . . .
:|> >:|> Religion was become avowedly the attribute of man and not of a
:|> >:|> corporation. In the earliest states known to history, government and
:|> >:|> religion were one and indivisible. Each state had its special deity,
:|> >:|> and of these protectors one after another might be overthrown in
:|> >:|> battle, never to rise again. The Peloponnesian War grew out of a
:|> >:|> strife about an oracle. Rome, as it adopted into citizenship those
:|> >:|> whom it vanquished, sometimes introduced, and with good logic for that
:|> >:|> day, the worship of their gods. No one thought of vindicating liberty
:|> >:|> of religion for the conscience of the individual till a voice in
:|> >:|> Judea, breaking day for the greatest epoch in the life of humanity by
:|> >:|> establishing for all mankind a pure, spiritual, and universal
:|> >:|> religion, enjoined to render to Caesar only that which is Caesar's.
:|> >:|> The rule was upheld during the infancy of this gospel for all men. No
:|> >:|> sooner was the religion of freedom adopted by the chief of the Roman
:|> >:|> Empire, than it was shorn of its character of universality and
:|> >:|> enthralled by an unholy connection with the unholy state; and so it
:|> >:|> continued till the new nation-the least defiled with the barren
:|> >:|> scoffings of the eighteenth century, the most sincere believer in
:|> >:|> Christianity of any people of that age, the chief heir of the
:|> >:|> Reformation in its purest form-when it came to establish a government
:|> >:|> for the United States, refused to treat faith as a matter to be
:|> >:|> regulated by a corporate body, or having a headship in a monarch or a
:|> >:|> state.
:|> >:|>
:|> >:|> "Vindicating the right of individuality even in religion, and in
:|> >:|> religion above all, the new nation dared to set the example of
:|> >:|> accepting in its relations to God the principle first divinely
:|> >:|> ordained in Judea. It left the management of temporal things to the
:|> >:|> temporal power; but the American Constitution, in harmony with the
:|> >:|> people of the several States, withheld from the Federal Government the
:|> >:|> power to invade the home of reason, the citadel of conscience, the
:|> >:|> sanctuary of the soul; and not from indifference, but that the
:|> >:|> infinite spirit of eternal truth might move in its freedom and purity
:|> >:|> and power. "
:|> >:|> (SOURCE OF INFORMATION: Bancroft, George, "History of the United
:|> >:|> States" (1888), Vol. VI, pp. 443, 444. American State Papers on
:|> >:|> Freedom in Religion. 3rd Revised Edition. Published in 1943 for The
:|> >:|> Religious Liberty Association, Washington, D.C. by the Review and
:|> >:|> Herald. First Edition Compiled by William Addison Blakely, of the
:|> >:|> Chicago Bar. (1890) under the Title American State Papers Bearing on
:|> >:|> Sunday Legislation. pp 140-141)
:|> >:|>
:|> >:|
:|> >:|Continental Congress Thanksgiving Proclamation (1779):
:|> >:|"...too few have been sufficiently awakened to a sense of their guilt,
:|> >:|or warmed our Bosoms with gratitude, or taught to amend their lives
:|> >:|and turn from their sins, that so He might turn from His wrath."
:|>
:|> Duh.
:|>
:|> When was the Constitution framed?
:|> When was the Constitution ratified by the states?
:|> When did the US of A, you know, this nation under that Constitution
:|> actually begin operation?
:|>
:|> Your example above is irrelevant since the answers to the above questions are
:|> all AFTER 1779.
:|>
:|> Better luck next time
:|>
:|
:|DUH! Your post was about the Constitution, and this is from the
:|Constitutional Convention. Pay attention next time.
:|
:|Ken Clifton
:|christiansuperhero.com
More accurately
Christian Idiot and internet troll
Duh and double DUH
Had you bothered to have answered the questions I posed to you above, even
if only silently in your own mind, you would have realized your mistake
and not provided further evidence that you are an idiot who doesn't know
what you are talking about.
Answers to the questions
Q. When was the Constitution framed?
A. 1787
Q. When was the Constitution ratified by the states?
A. In the period of late 1787 - 1788
Q. When did the US of A, you know, this nation under that Constitution
actually begin operation?
A. March 1789
Dude anythign that happned in 1779 is totally irrelevant and was not in any
way shape or form part of the Constitutional Convention which took place
thought the summer of 1787
A mind is a powereful thing to waste.
My condescendence on your wasted mind
(grin)
***************************************************************
You are invited to check out the following:
The Rise of the Theocratic States of America
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/theocracy.htm
American Theocrats - Past and Present
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/theocrats.htm
The Constitutional Principle: Separation of Church and State
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/index.html
[and to join the discussion group for the above site and/or Separation of
Church and State in general, listed below]
HRSepCnS · Historical Reality SepChurch&State
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HRSepCnS/
***************************************************************
.. . . You can't understand a phrase such as "Congress shall make no law
respecting an establishment of religion" by syllogistic reasoning. Words
take their meaning from social as well as textual contexts, which is why "a
page of history is worth a volume of logic." New York Trust Co. v. Eisner,
256 U.S. 345, 349, 41 S.Ct. 506, 507, 65 L.Ed. 963 (1921) (Holmes, J.).
Sherman v. Community Consol. Dist. 21, 980 F.2d 437, 445 (7th Cir. 1992)
.. . .
****************************************************************
USAF LT. COL (Ret) Buffman (Glen P. Goffin) wrote
"You pilot always into an unknown future;
facts are your only clue. Get the facts!"
That philosophy 'snipit' helped to get me, and my crew, through a good
many combat missions and far too many scary, inflight, emergencies.
It has also played a significant role in helping me to expose the
plethora of radical Christian propaganda and lies that we find at
almost every media turn.
*****************************************************************
THE CONSTITUTIONAL PRINCIPLE:
SEPARATION OF CHURCH AND STATE
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/index.html
****************************************************************
.
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