| Topic: |
Religions > Atheism |
| User: |
"Neil Kelsey" |
| Date: |
20 Jun 2006 11:25:42 AM |
| Object: |
Separation of Church and Education |
This is just an idea that's been forming in my head the last few weeks.
What do you think about banning church schools and home schooling? I'm
not big on censorship, but in this case, I'm not sure it is censorship,
since the parents are still free to take their children to church (I'm
not even sure I'd do this if I was in charge). Any thoughts?
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| User: "Witziges Rätsel" |
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| Title: Re: Separation of Church and Education |
20 Jun 2006 12:02:54 PM |
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This is just an idea that's been forming in my head the last few weeks.
What do you think about banning church schools and home schooling? I'm
not big on censorship, but in this case, I'm not sure it is censorship,
since the parents are still free to take their children to church (I'm
not even sure I'd do this if I was in charge). Any thoughts?
Since faith without evidence is a foolish mode of thinking, children
should not be encouraged to believe things on faith alone. Teaching baseless
religious doctrine through fear of eternal torment is borderline child
abuse. By believing in a god, religious parents have shown that they're
too stupid to be allowed to teach children.
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| User: "Neil Kelsey" |
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| Title: Re: Separation of Church and Education |
20 Jun 2006 12:05:44 PM |
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Witziges R=E4tsel wrote:
This is just an idea that's been forming in my head the last few weeks.
What do you think about banning church schools and home schooling? I'm
not big on censorship, but in this case, I'm not sure it is censorship,
since the parents are still free to take their children to church (I'm
not even sure I'd do this if I was in charge). Any thoughts?
Since faith without evidence is a foolish mode of thinking, children
should not be encouraged to believe things on faith alone. Teaching basel=
ess
religious doctrine through fear of eternal torment is borderline child
abuse. By believing in a god, religious parents have shown that they're
too stupid to be allowed to teach children.
So do you think then that there should be no church schools or home
schooling?
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| User: "Witziges Rätsel" |
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| Title: Re: Separation of Church and Education |
20 Jun 2006 12:19:05 PM |
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This is just an idea that's been forming in my head the last few
weeks.
What do you think about banning church schools and home schooling? I'm
not big on censorship, but in this case, I'm not sure it is
censorship,
since the parents are still free to take their children to church (I'm
not even sure I'd do this if I was in charge). Any thoughts?
Since faith without evidence is a foolish mode of thinking, children
should not be encouraged to believe things on faith alone. Teaching
baseless
religious doctrine through fear of eternal torment is borderline child
abuse. By believing in a god, religious parents have shown that they're
too stupid to be allowed to teach children.
So do you think then that there should be no church schools or home
schooling?
I thought that could be inferred from what I wrote. Yes, I'd like
to see private (certainly including religious) schools closed and all
children attending public schools for these and a variety of other
reasons.
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| User: "Colin Day" |
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| Title: Re: Separation of Church and Education |
20 Jun 2006 01:09:48 PM |
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Witziges Rätsel wrote:
I thought that could be inferred from what I wrote. Yes, I'd like
to see private (certainly including religious) schools closed and all
children attending public schools for these and a variety of other
reasons.
And how would we know if public schools were doing well unless
we had private schools as alternatatives?
Colin Day aa #1500
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| User: "Gordon Hill" |
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| Title: Re: Separation of Church and Education |
20 Jun 2006 02:39:46 PM |
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Colin Day wrote:
Witziges R=E4tsel wrote:
I thought that could be inferred from what I wrote. Yes, I'd like
to see private (certainly including religious) schools closed and all
children attending public schools for these and a variety of other
reasons.
And how would we know if public schools were doing well unless
we had private schools as alternatatives?
In some cases its the other way around, especially where the private
schools are not required to use certified teachers and the students are
exempt from the mandatory state testing.
In those cases, who knows how well they are doing.
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| User: "Colin Day" |
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| Title: Re: Separation of Church and Education |
20 Jun 2006 08:11:27 PM |
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Gordon Hill wrote:
Colin Day wrote:
Witziges Rätsel wrote:
I thought that could be inferred from what I wrote. Yes, I'd like
to see private (certainly including religious) schools closed and all
children attending public schools for these and a variety of other
reasons.
And how would we know if public schools were doing well unless
we had private schools as alternatatives?
In some cases its the other way around, especially where the private
schools are not required to use certified teachers and the students are
exempt from the mandatory state testing.
In those cases, who knows how well they are doing.
How else do you test the certification?
Colin Day aa #1500
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| User: "Gordon Hill" |
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| Title: Re: Separation of Church and Education |
21 Jun 2006 09:15:39 AM |
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Colin Day wrote:
Gordon Hill wrote:
Colin Day wrote:
Witziges R=E4tsel wrote:
I thought that could be inferred from what I wrote. Yes, I'd like
to see private (certainly including religious) schools closed and all
children attending public schools for these and a variety of other
reasons.
And how would we know if public schools were doing well unless
we had private schools as alternatatives?
In some cases its the other way around, especially where the private
schools are not required to use certified teachers and the students are
exempt from the mandatory state testing.
In those cases, who knows how well they are doing.
How else do you test the certification?
I'm not sure I understand your question. My point is that Florida has
teacher certification requirements which are easy to acquire. To teach
in the public schools you myst be certified or agree to complete the
required coursework within three years (?). The private and
quasi-private schools are not required to employ certified teachers.
My point is that this is one difference which creates the opportunity
for a difference in quality between the two. That said, most private
schools exceed the public schools in quality, but the exceptions, which
we read about every few years, are a travesty which cheat well meaning
parents of good education for their children.
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| User: "Colin Day" |
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| Title: Re: Separation of Church and Education |
21 Jun 2006 06:59:12 PM |
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Gordon Hill wrote:
Colin Day wrote:
Gordon Hill wrote:
Colin Day wrote:
Witziges Rätsel wrote:
I thought that could be inferred from what I wrote. Yes, I'd like
to see private (certainly including religious) schools closed and all
children attending public schools for these and a variety of other
reasons.
And how would we know if public schools were doing well unless
we had private schools as alternatatives?
In some cases its the other way around, especially where the private
schools are not required to use certified teachers and the students are
exempt from the mandatory state testing.
In those cases, who knows how well they are doing.
How else do you test the certification?
I'm not sure I understand your question. My point is that Florida has
teacher certification requirements which are easy to acquire. To teach
in the public schools you myst be certified or agree to complete the
required coursework within three years (?). The private and
quasi-private schools are not required to employ certified teachers.
My point is that this is one difference which creates the opportunity
for a difference in quality between the two. That said, most private
schools exceed the public schools in quality, but the exceptions, which
we read about every few years, are a travesty which cheat well meaning
parents of good education for their children.
My question about certification is how do we know that certification
really separates the good teachers from the others?
Colin Day aa #1500
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| User: "Gordon Hill" |
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| Title: Re: Separation of Church and Education |
22 Jun 2006 07:08:12 AM |
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Colin Day wrote:
Gordon Hill wrote:
Colin Day wrote:
Gordon Hill wrote:
Colin Day wrote:
Witziges R=E4tsel wrote:
I thought that could be inferred from what I wrote. Yes, I'd li=
ke
to see private (certainly including religious) schools closed and a=
ll
children attending public schools for these and a variety of other
reasons.
And how would we know if public schools were doing well unless
we had private schools as alternatatives?
In some cases its the other way around, especially where the private
schools are not required to use certified teachers and the students a=
re
exempt from the mandatory state testing.
In those cases, who knows how well they are doing.
How else do you test the certification?
I'm not sure I understand your question. My point is that Florida has
teacher certification requirements which are easy to acquire. To teach
in the public schools you myst be certified or agree to complete the
required coursework within three years (?). The private and
quasi-private schools are not required to employ certified teachers.
My point is that this is one difference which creates the opportunity
for a difference in quality between the two. That said, most private
schools exceed the public schools in quality, but the exceptions, which
we read about every few years, are a travesty which cheat well meaning
parents of good education for their children.
My question about certification is how do we know that certification
really separates the good teachers from the others?
We don't, but that's not the issue to me. My point is that if you need
a CDR--Commercial Drivers License--to drive a truck, should it matter
who owns the truck?
If you are going to teach in a recognized school--public, private,
other--should you be certified.
There is plenty of evidence that many uncertified teachers are
excellent and vice versa. To me it's a matter of being consistent.
Either require teacher certification or don't, but be consistent.
The issue of quality is everpresent. Read the stories on medical
malpractice.
=20
Colin Day aa #1500
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| User: "Colin Day" |
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| Title: Re: Separation of Church and Education |
20 Jun 2006 01:13:31 PM |
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Witziges Rätsel wrote:
This is just an idea that's been forming in my head the last few weeks.
What do you think about banning church schools and home schooling? I'm
not big on censorship, but in this case, I'm not sure it is censorship,
since the parents are still free to take their children to church (I'm
not even sure I'd do this if I was in charge). Any thoughts?
Since faith without evidence is a foolish mode of thinking, children
should not be encouraged to believe things on faith alone. Teaching baseless
religious doctrine through fear of eternal torment is borderline child
abuse. By believing in a god, religious parents have shown that they're
too stupid to be allowed to teach children.
And who should have the "authority" to disallow this?
Colin Day aa #1500
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| User: "Witziges Rätsel" |
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| Title: Re: Separation of Church and Education |
20 Jun 2006 01:28:36 PM |
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This is just an idea that's been forming in my head the last few weeks.
What do you think about banning church schools and home schooling? I'm
not big on censorship, but in this case, I'm not sure it is censorship,
since the parents are still free to take their children to church (I'm
not even sure I'd do this if I was in charge). Any thoughts?
Since faith without evidence is a foolish mode of thinking, children
should not be encouraged to believe things on faith alone. Teaching
baseless
religious doctrine through fear of eternal torment is borderline child
abuse. By believing in a god, religious parents have shown that they're
too stupid to be allowed to teach children.
And who should have the "authority" to disallow this?
Realizing it's a far-fetched and unlikely scenario, I hope the
government of the people will come to its senses and vote for atheist
and anti-religion politicians. The dimwits of faith have held sway long
enough.
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| User: "Colin Day" |
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| Title: Re: Separation of Church and Education |
20 Jun 2006 08:10:25 PM |
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Witziges Rätsel wrote:
This is just an idea that's been forming in my head the last few weeks.
What do you think about banning church schools and home schooling? I'm
not big on censorship, but in this case, I'm not sure it is censorship,
since the parents are still free to take their children to church (I'm
not even sure I'd do this if I was in charge). Any thoughts?
Since faith without evidence is a foolish mode of thinking, children
should not be encouraged to believe things on faith alone. Teaching
baseless
religious doctrine through fear of eternal torment is borderline child
abuse. By believing in a god, religious parents have shown that they're
too stupid to be allowed to teach children.
And who should have the "authority" to disallow this?
Realizing it's a far-fetched and unlikely scenario, I hope the
government of the people will come to its senses and vote for atheist
and anti-religion politicians. The dimwits of faith have held sway long
enough.
Even if it were politically popular, would it be correct?
Colin Day aa #1500
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| User: "Gordon Hill" |
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| Title: Re: Separation of Church and Education |
21 Jun 2006 09:01:45 AM |
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Colin Day wrote:
Witziges R=E4tsel wrote:
This is just an idea that's been forming in my head the last few weeks.
What do you think about banning church schools and home schooling? I'm
not big on censorship, but in this case, I'm not sure it is censorship,
since the parents are still free to take their children to church (I'm
not even sure I'd do this if I was in charge). Any thoughts?
Since faith without evidence is a foolish mode of thinking, children
should not be encouraged to believe things on faith alone. Teaching bas=
eless
religious doctrine through fear of eternal torment is borderline child
abuse. By believing in a god, religious parents have shown that they're
too stupid to be allowed to teach children.
And who should have the "authority" to disallow this?
That's always a good question. The answer is "soft". If our concern
is the welfare of those who are unable to fend for themselves--in this
case children--the authority lies with the people who choose whether to
have a government and, if so, what form and within that form set the
rules. In Florida the state legislature has that ultimate authority
and have chosen to allow private and quasi-public schools to operate
with different standards than the public ones.
Even within the public school system there is a variety. For example,
if you are a guest at the Pinellas County Juvenile Detention Center,
you must attend class conducted by teachers who are a part of the
Pinellas County (public) School System, even if you have a high school
diploma or GED. Unfair? Maybe, but the guys and girls don't complain
because if they don't attend class they stay in their room (cell)
alone. The desire for company trumps the objection to attending class.
The ultimate authority lies with we citizens, but we transfer that to
others.
=20
Colin Day aa #1500
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| User: "Gordon Hill" |
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| Title: Re: Separation of Church and Education |
20 Jun 2006 02:37:22 PM |
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Neil Kelsey wrote:
This is just an idea that's been forming in my head the last few weeks.
What do you think about banning church schools and home schooling?
Why not? We could make it part of the Patriot Act. What's the loss of
one more freedom?
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| User: "Colin Day" |
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| Title: Re: Separation of Church and Education |
20 Jun 2006 01:06:19 PM |
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Neil Kelsey wrote:
This is just an idea that's been forming in my head the last few weeks.
What do you think about banning church schools and home schooling? I'm
not big on censorship, but in this case, I'm not sure it is censorship,
since the parents are still free to take their children to church (I'm
not even sure I'd do this if I was in charge). Any thoughts?
The Supreme Court has ruled in 1925 that Oregon could not
ban religious schools.
Colin Day aa #1500
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| User: "Neil Kelsey" |
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| Title: Re: Separation of Church and Education |
20 Jun 2006 01:33:57 PM |
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Colin Day wrote:
Neil Kelsey wrote:
This is just an idea that's been forming in my head the last few weeks.
What do you think about banning church schools and home schooling? I'm
not big on censorship, but in this case, I'm not sure it is censorship,
since the parents are still free to take their children to church (I'm
not even sure I'd do this if I was in charge). Any thoughts?
The Supreme Court has ruled in 1925 that Oregon could not
ban religious schools.
Colin Day aa #1500
I'm not American, but do you think the case could be made that allowing
religious education instead of secular education is unconstitutional
(in that church and state are not separated)? Is that what they tried
to argue in Oregon? Would that case have a better chance today?
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| User: "Jim07D6" |
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| Title: Re: Separation of Church and Education |
20 Jun 2006 02:23:03 PM |
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"Neil Kelsey" <neil_kelsey@hotmail.com> said:
Colin Day wrote:
Neil Kelsey wrote:
This is just an idea that's been forming in my head the last few weeks.
What do you think about banning church schools and home schooling? I'm
not big on censorship, but in this case, I'm not sure it is censorship,
since the parents are still free to take their children to church (I'm
not even sure I'd do this if I was in charge). Any thoughts?
The Supreme Court has ruled in 1925 that Oregon could not
ban religious schools.
Colin Day aa #1500
I'm not American, but do you think the case could be made that allowing
religious education instead of secular education is unconstitutional
(in that church and state are not separated)? Is that what they tried
to argue in Oregon? Would that case have a better chance today?
Not a chance. It is more likely that government would get out of the
education business. But not a chance of that, either. We gotta train
the kids to vote for American Idol more diligently than for their
public serpents.
--- Jim07D6
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| User: "Colin Day" |
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| Title: Re: Separation of Church and Education |
20 Jun 2006 08:15:19 PM |
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Neil Kelsey wrote:
Colin Day wrote:
Neil Kelsey wrote:
This is just an idea that's been forming in my head the last few weeks.
What do you think about banning church schools and home schooling? I'm
not big on censorship, but in this case, I'm not sure it is censorship,
since the parents are still free to take their children to church (I'm
not even sure I'd do this if I was in charge). Any thoughts?
The Supreme Court has ruled in 1925 that Oregon could not
ban religious schools.
Colin Day aa #1500
I'm not American, but do you think the case could be made that allowing
religious education instead of secular education is unconstitutional
(in that church and state are not separated)? Is that what they tried
to argue in Oregon? Would that case have a better chance today?
It may well be that offering religious education is protected by the
free exercise clause.
Colin Day aa #1500
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| User: "Ike Milligan" |
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| Title: Re: Separation of Church and Education |
20 Jun 2006 10:31:06 PM |
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Neil Kelsey wrote:
This is just an idea that's been forming in my head the last few weeks.
What do you think about banning church schools and home schooling? I'm
not big on censorship, but in this case, I'm not sure it is censorship,
since the parents are still free to take their children to church (I'm
not even sure I'd do this if I was in charge). Any thoughts?
but that would be elevating the state to have the sole possibility of
teaching children, and the state might inculcate them with statism.
People should have a right to send their children to any kind of school
that cna teach them basic education, or teach them at home. the public
schools are pretty rotten anyway. For millennia people have taught their
children as they wished, but all of a sudden you know what's best for
everyone? give me a break.
Be a atheist or whatever, but people have a right to sned their children
anywhere and have as much ownership of them as the government does. The
government only teaches them to serve the interests of the government.
Even if you don't believe the religion, why should you elevate the
government to the sole ruler? If there were atheist private schools
people would have the right to use them. Are you some kind of Commie?
Catholics have Catholic schools; Protestants have Protestant schools;
Moslems have Moslem schools; Jews have Jew Schools, and secular
humanists have secular humanist schools. But you want the state to have
the right to brainwash all the children.
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| User: "Gordon Hill" |
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| Title: Re: Separation of Church and Education |
21 Jun 2006 09:08:19 AM |
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Ike Milligan wrote:
Neil Kelsey wrote:
This is just an idea that's been forming in my head the last few weeks.
What do you think about banning church schools and home schooling? I'm
not big on censorship, but in this case, I'm not sure it is censorship,
since the parents are still free to take their children to church (I'm
not even sure I'd do this if I was in charge). Any thoughts?
but that would be elevating the state to have the sole possibility of
teaching children, and the state might inculcate them with statism.
People should have a right to send their children to any kind of school
that cna teach them basic education, or teach them at home. the public
schools are pretty rotten anyway. For millennia people have taught their
children as they wished, but all of a sudden you know what's best for
everyone? give me a break.
Good point. Take a break. Have a beverage. If kids aren't paying any
more attention in school than I did, this is less an issue than some
think.
Be a atheist or whatever, but people have a right to sned their children
anywhere and have as much ownership of them as the government does. The
government only teaches them to serve the interests of the government.
I'm not sure this is true in the school system, especially here in
florida where the teachers and state are at odds.
Even if you don't believe the religion, why should you elevate the
government to the sole ruler? If there were atheist private schools
people would have the right to use them. Are you some kind of Commie?
Catholics have Catholic schools; Protestants have Protestant schools;
Moslems have Moslem schools; Jews have Jew Schools, and secular
humanists have secular humanist schools. But you want the state to have
the right to brainwash all the children.
When one looks at the membership figures for the major religions I
think they have problems greater than religion--or not--in schools.
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