| Topic: |
Religions > Atheism |
| User: |
"" |
| Date: |
21 Apr 2007 06:52:28 AM |
| Object: |
Separation of Church and State |
Separation of Church and State
Separation of Church and State
http://www.carthagepress.com/articles/2007/04/18/news/11%20howerton.txt
[excerpt]
By Dallie Miessner Howerton, Press Columnist
Published: Wednesday, April 18, 2007 3:38 PM CDT
E-mail this story | Print this page
This past Friday, April 13, was the birthday of Thomas Jefferson. One
of the most outspoken of the Founding Fathers on "Freedom of Religion"
and the importance of the "Separation of Church and State."
This past week, as the result of Attorneygate, Monica Goodling, senior
counsel to Attorney General Alberto Gonzales, and White House liaison,
was thrust into the spotlight when she resigned and told Congress that
she would take the Fifth Amendment rather than testify under oath.
Monica Goodling's involvement in Attorneygate is not the only aspect
of her role in the Bush administration that bears examination. The
mainstream press suddenly discovered that Pat Robertson's Regent
University exists. Not only that, the press learned that it has made a
deep footprint in George W. Bush's Washington, with 150 graduates of
Regent serving in the Bush administration.
*
When the Bush administration came into power, it looked to Regent for
a reliable pool of well-groomed Republican ideologues eager to wage
the culture war from the inside. The former dean of Regent's Robertson
School of Government, Kay Coles James, was promptly installed as the
Director of the Office of Personnel Management.
"The infiltration of the federal government by large numbers of people
seeking to impose a religious agenda - which is very different from
simply being people of faith - is one of the most important stories of
the last six years," said Paul Krugman of the New York Times. An
agenda that would remove the "wall of separation between church and
state."
Over this past six years we have repeatedly heard claims that the
United States is a Christian nation, founded on Christian values and
principles.
I thought this might be a good time to review what one of the most
prominent Founding Fathers had to say on the subject:
[end excerpt]
***************************************************************
You are invited to check out the following:
The Rise of the Theocratic States of America
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/theocracy.htm
American Theocrats - Past and Present
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/theocrats.htm
The Constitutional Principle: Separation of Church and State
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/index.html
[and to join the discussion group for the above site and/or Separation of
Church and State in general, listed below]
HRSepCnS · Historical Reality SepChurch&State
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HRSepCnS/
***************************************************************
.. . . You can't understand a phrase such as "Congress shall make no law
respecting an establishment of religion" by syllogistic reasoning. Words
take their meaning from social as well as textual contexts, which is why "a
page of history is worth a volume of logic." New York Trust Co. v. Eisner,
256 U.S. 345, 349, 41 S.Ct. 506, 507, 65 L.Ed. 963 (1921) (Holmes, J.).
Sherman v. Community Consol. Dist. 21, 980 F.2d 437, 445 (7th Cir. 1992)
.. . .
****************************************************************
USAF LT. COL (Ret) Buffman (Glen P. Goffin) wrote
"You pilot always into an unknown future;
facts are your only clue. Get the facts!"
That philosophy 'snipit' helped to get me, and my crew, through a good
many combat missions and far too many scary, inflight, emergencies.
It has also played a significant role in helping me to expose the
plethora of radical Christian propaganda and lies that we find at
almost every media turn.
*****************************************************************
THE CONSTITUTIONAL PRINCIPLE:
SEPARATION OF CHURCH AND STATE
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/index.html
****************************************************************
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: Separation of Church and State |
22 Apr 2007 02:16:25 PM |
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On Apr 22, 12:08 pm, 3318 Dead <zepp22113...@finestplanet.com> wrote:
On Sun, 22 Apr 2007 10:56:10 -0400, "birdog" <bir...@aol.com> wrote:
"Codebreaker" <Codebrea...@bigsecret.com> wrote in message
news:1177176411.673991.152330@e65g2000hsc.googlegroups.com...
On Apr 21, 1:14 pm, Blazing Laser wrote:
Jefferson is on record as advocating 'a wall of separation between
church and state', but people today, especially Christians, don't seem
to realize that he made this promise to -religious- people, not
atheists. Jefferson was afraid that religion mixing with politics
would corrupt not the government but the church. And if you open your
eyes and look around you, you'll see that that's exactly what's
happening today, with the erosion of the wall between church and state
that's gone on so far.
The fundamentalist Christian church has become a wholly-owned
subsidiary of the GOP. Crooked religious leaders have sold out to the
party for their own self-aggranidzement. Christians who profess to
believe in principles morality are completely blind to the corruption
and criminality of the GOP because these corrupt leaders tell them
it's no less than their Christian duty to vote Republican. And anyone
who fights to keep religion out of courtrooms or public schools (like
the ACLU) is unfairly bashed as being anti-Christian.
This is a textbook case of a 'Faustian bargain'. By believing
uncritically, and by being taught that getting what you want is more
important than principles, Christians have sold out to the Devil
himself.
If you don't like it, go and drink from the SEA.
Constitutionally, there AIN'T no "separation of church and state".
Really? Then tell us, Birdie, why the constitution explicity forbids
any religious test for any office or position of public trust in the
united States.
What would that religious test look like anyway. You and them are
the one who confused the debate by confusing the definition
of RELIGION. But as we know, the Law is a religious test
because the Law is religion as Judaism started with the Law
given to Moses.
Are you telling me that Constitution forbids taking legal tests???
--
"I am fully committed, as the administration's fully committed, to ensure that, with respect to every United States
attorney position in this country, we will have a presidentially appointed, Senate-confirmed United States attorney."
--Alberto Gonzales, committing perjury before Congress
Putsch: leading America to asymetric warfare since 2001
Not dead, in jail, or a slave? Thank a liberal!
Pay your taxes so the rich don't have to.
For the finest in liberal/leftist commentary,http://www.zeppscommentaries.com
For news feed (free, 10-20 articles a day)http://groups.yahoo.com/subscribe/zepps_news
For essays (donations accepted, 2 articles/week)http://groups.yahoo.com/subscribe/zepps_essays
a.a. #2211 -- Bryan Zepp Jamieson- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
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| User: "cpt banjo" |
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| Title: Re: Separation of Church and State |
22 Apr 2007 05:21:03 PM |
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On Apr 22, 1:16 pm, wrote:
But as we know, the Law is a religious test because the Law is religion as Judaism started with the
Law given to Moses.
Nope. The Code of Hammurabi predates the Mosaic laws by about 500
years.
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: Separation of Church and State |
23 Apr 2007 08:48:11 AM |
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On 22 Apr 2007 15:21:03 -0700, cpt banjo
<cptbanjo@aol.com> wrote:
On Apr 22, 1:16 pm, wrote:
But as we know, the Law is a religious test because the Law is religion as Judaism started with the
Law given to Moses.
Nope. The Code of Hammurabi predates the Mosaic laws by about 500
years.
And the Epic of Gilgamesh predates the "creation,
flood, messiah" epics by thousands of years.
.
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| User: "Codebreaker" |
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| Title: Re: Separation of Church and State |
23 Apr 2007 01:04:53 PM |
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On Apr 23, 9:48 am, wrote:
On 22 Apr 2007 15:21:03 -0700, cpt banjo
<cptba...@aol.com> wrote:
On Apr 22, 1:16 pm, wrote:
But as we know, the Law is a religious test because the Law is religion as Judaism started with the
Law given to Moses.
Nope. The Code of Hammurabi predates the Mosaic laws by about 500
years.
And the Epic of Gilgamesh predates the "creation,
flood, messiah" epics by thousands of years.
That is not the point I made... Your contention is irrelevant
therefore.
The why of the similarities are explained in the Torah and it makes
sense,
take time to read it instead of being preocupied by what preceded
what.
YOU GUYS HAVE READING COMPREHENSION PROBLEMS OR WHAT?
Points were made in the Torah of Moses and in the books of the New
Covenant
instead of pondering on them, you try to play smart.
Who do you want to impress? We already know that you are CRACKPOTS,
aren't you?
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| User: "cpt banjo" |
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| Title: Re: Separation of Church and State |
23 Apr 2007 04:31:40 PM |
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On Apr 23, 1:04 pm, Codebreaker <Codebrea...@bigsecret.com> wrote:
That is not the point I made... Your contention is irrelevant
therefore.
The why of the similarities are explained in the Torah and it makes
sense,
take time to read it instead of being preocupied by what preceded
what.
YOU GUYS HAVE READING COMPREHENSION PROBLEMS OR
WHAT?
Points were made in the Torah of Moses and in the books of the New
Covenant
instead of pondering on them, you try to play smart.
Not as bad as your writing problem, sport. Try drafting a coherent
declarative sentence for a change.
The issue was whether, as someone claimed earler, "the Law is a
religious test because the Law is religion as Judaism started with the
Law
given to Moses." The point that this person seemed to be making is
that our legal system is somehow religious in nature because it
supposedly derived from Judaism, which in turn was derived from the
Mosaic Laws. The point I was trying to make (which flew right over
the point on your head) was that our legal system is not based
exclusively on Judaic principles, but that its sources can be traced
back even further. In addition, there are many features of our law
that aren't based at all on Middle Eastern traditions or religious
doctrines.
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| User: "Codebreaker" |
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| Title: Re: Separation of Church and State |
22 Apr 2007 08:28:07 PM |
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On Apr 22, 6:21 pm, cpt banjo <cptba...@aol.com> wrote:
On Apr 22, 1:16 pm, wrote:
But as we know, the Law is a religious test because the Law is religion as Judaism started with the
Law given to Moses.
Nope. The Code of Hammurabi predates the Mosaic laws by about 500
years.
It Hammourabi was not an atheist. He did what he did in the name
of his God and His religion. So Oh ***** Law is a part
of religion
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: Separation of Church and State |
22 Apr 2007 08:49:48 PM |
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On Apr 22, 6:21 pm, cpt banjo <cptba...@aol.com> wrote:
On Apr 22, 1:16 pm, wrote:
But as we know, the Law is a religious test because the Law is religion as Judaism started with the
Law given to Moses.
Hey *****, Codebreaker says Judaism started with the Law of Moses.If
you disagree you must prove that Judaism did not start with Moses Law.
What does the code of Hammourabi predating Moses Law have to do with
the
issue?
Nope. The Code of Hammurabi predates the Mosaic laws by about 500
years.
.
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: Separation of Church and State |
23 Apr 2007 08:51:36 AM |
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On 22 Apr 2007 18:49:48 -0700,
wrote:
On Apr 22, 6:21 pm, cpt banjo <cptba...@aol.com> wrote:
On Apr 22, 1:16 pm, wrote:
But as we know, the Law is a religious test because the Law is religion as Judaism started with the
Law given to Moses.
Hey *****, Codebreaker says Judaism started with the Law of Moses.If
you disagree you must prove that Judaism did not start with Moses Law.
What does the code of Hammourabi predating Moses Law have to do with
the
issue?
"Judaism" is an evolved religion.
It is every bit truthful to say it emanated out of
paganism and other philosophical beliefs.
The "Epic of Gilgamesh" (oldest known clay tablets),
almost word for word, relates the "creation, flood, and
Messiah" epics that form the foundation of
Judeo-christian religious beliefs.
.
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| User: "Wonderer" |
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| Title: Re: Separation of Church and State |
23 Apr 2007 05:11:53 PM |
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<Click@Knicklas.com> wrote in message
news:6aep23l4jbcl4915t1e61netc3lm5qp375@4ax.com...
On 22 Apr 2007 18:49:48 -0700,
wrote:
On Apr 22, 6:21 pm, cpt banjo <cptba...@aol.com> wrote:
On Apr 22, 1:16 pm, wrote:
But as we know, the Law is a religious test because the Law is
religion as Judaism started with the
Law given to Moses.
Hey *****, Codebreaker says Judaism started with the Law of Moses.If
you disagree you must prove that Judaism did not start with Moses Law.
What does the code of Hammourabi predating Moses Law have to do with
the
issue?
"Judaism" is an evolved religion.
It is every bit truthful to say it emanated out of
paganism and other philosophical beliefs.
The "Epic of Gilgamesh" (oldest known clay tablets),
almost word for word, relates the "creation, flood, and
Messiah" epics that form the foundation of
Judeo-christian religious beliefs.
read the sumerian texts, these precede christianity by 4000 yearrs
Wonderer
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| User: "Codebreaker" |
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| Title: Re: Separation of Church and State |
23 Apr 2007 07:40:05 PM |
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On Apr 23, 6:11 pm, "Wonderer" <piri...@bigpond.com> wrote:
<C...@Knicklas.com> wrote in message
news:6aep23l4jbcl4915t1e61netc3lm5qp375@4ax.com...
On 22 Apr 2007 18:49:48 -0700,
wrote:
On Apr 22, 6:21 pm, cpt banjo <cptba...@aol.com> wrote:
On Apr 22, 1:16 pm, wrote:
But as we know, the Law is a religious test because the Law is
religion as Judaism started with the
Law given to Moses.
Hey *****, Codebreaker says Judaism started with the Law of Moses.If
you disagree you must prove that Judaism did not start with Moses Law.
What does the code of Hammourabi predating Moses Law have to do with
the
issue?
"Judaism" is an evolved religion.
It is every bit truthful to say it emanated out of
paganism and other philosophical beliefs.
The "Epic of Gilgamesh" (oldest known clay tablets),
almost word for word, relates the "creation, flood, and
Messiah" epics that form the foundation of
Judeo-christian religious beliefs.
read the sumerian texts, these precede christianity by 4000 yearrs
4000 years according to the Lord calendar?
What are their equivalent in monkeyan Calendars 4000 billions years/
days???
--------------------
And they say, monkey turned into a human being 3 billions years ago.
But when we ask them to produce the relevant document
as evidence all they
come up with are some camels bones dating back 3 centurie only.
Wonderer
- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
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| User: "Wonderer" |
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| Title: Re: Separation of Church and State |
24 Apr 2007 01:16:04 AM |
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"Codebreaker" <Codebreaker@bigsecret.com> wrote in message
news:1177375205.416866.157980@e65g2000hsc.googlegroups.com...
On Apr 23, 6:11 pm, "Wonderer" <piri...@bigpond.com> wrote:
<C...@Knicklas.com> wrote in message
news:6aep23l4jbcl4915t1e61netc3lm5qp375@4ax.com...
On 22 Apr 2007 18:49:48 -0700,
wrote:
On Apr 22, 6:21 pm, cpt banjo <cptba...@aol.com> wrote:
On Apr 22, 1:16 pm, wrote:
But as we know, the Law is a religious test because the Law is
religion as Judaism started with the
Law given to Moses.
Hey *****, Codebreaker says Judaism started with the Law of Moses.If
you disagree you must prove that Judaism did not start with Moses Law.
What does the code of Hammourabi predating Moses Law have to do with
the
issue?
"Judaism" is an evolved religion.
It is every bit truthful to say it emanated out of
paganism and other philosophical beliefs.
The "Epic of Gilgamesh" (oldest known clay tablets),
almost word for word, relates the "creation, flood, and
Messiah" epics that form the foundation of
Judeo-christian religious beliefs.
read the sumerian texts, these precede christianity by 4000 yearrs
4000 years according to the Lord calendar?
What are their equivalent in monkeyan Calendars 4000 billions years/
days???
the calendar they used is the calendar of nipur, which pope gregory used to
formulate the present calendar, are you too lazy to read these texts, the
gods (plural) were called the annanaki.
Wonderer
--------------------
And they say, monkey turned into a human being 3 billions years ago.
But when we ask them to produce the relevant document
as evidence all they
come up with are some camels bones dating back 3 centurie only.
Wonderer
- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
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| User: "Cary Kittrell" |
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| Title: Re: Separation of Church and State |
23 Apr 2007 09:42:42 PM |
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In article <1177375205.416866.157980@e65g2000hsc.googlegroups.com> Codebreaker <Codebreaker@bigsecret.com> writes:
On Apr 23, 6:11 pm, "Wonderer" <piri...@bigpond.com> wrote:
<C...@Knicklas.com> wrote in message
news:6aep23l4jbcl4915t1e61netc3lm5qp375@4ax.com...
On 22 Apr 2007 18:49:48 -0700,
wrote:
On Apr 22, 6:21 pm, cpt banjo <cptba...@aol.com> wrote:
On Apr 22, 1:16 pm, wrote:
But as we know, the Law is a religious test because the Law is
religion as Judaism started with the
Law given to Moses.
Hey *****, Codebreaker says Judaism started with the Law of Moses.If
you disagree you must prove that Judaism did not start with Moses Law.
What does the code of Hammourabi predating Moses Law have to do with
the
issue?
"Judaism" is an evolved religion.
It is every bit truthful to say it emanated out of
paganism and other philosophical beliefs.
The "Epic of Gilgamesh" (oldest known clay tablets),
almost word for word, relates the "creation, flood, and
Messiah" epics that form the foundation of
Judeo-christian religious beliefs.
read the sumerian texts, these precede christianity by 4000 yearrs
4000 years according to the Lord calendar?
What are their equivalent in monkeyan Calendars 4000 billions years/
days???
--------------------
And they say, monkey turned into a human being 3 billions years ago.
No. They don't.
But when we ask them to produce the relevant document
as evidence all they
come up with are some camels bones dating back 3 centurie only.
No. They don't.
-- cary
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| User: "Douglas Berry" |
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| Title: Re: Separation of Church and State |
23 Apr 2007 09:53:22 PM |
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On 23 Apr 2007 17:40:05 -0700 there was an Ancient Codebreaker
<Codebreaker@bigsecret.com> who stoppeth one in alt.atheism
read the sumerian texts, these precede christianity by 4000 yearrs
4000 years according to the Lord calendar?
What are their equivalent in monkeyan Calendars 4000 billions years/
days???
Actually, the Sumerians created the basis for the calendar we use
today.
And they say, monkey turned into a human being 3 billions years ago.
More like three million.
But when we ask them to produce the relevant document
as evidence all they
No documents. Just bones, tools, and DNA.
come up with are some camels bones dating back 3 centurie only.
Actually we've found ancestor species dating back to the first
hominids to stand upright.
--
Douglas Berry Do the OBVIOUS thing to send e-mail
Atheist #2147, Atheist Vet #5
Jason Gastrich is praying for me on 8 January 2011
"The most beautiful thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the
source of all true art and all science. He to whom this emotion is a
stranger, who can no longer pause to wonder and stand rapt in awe, is as
good as dead: his eyes are closed." - Albert Einstein
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: Separation of Church and State |
24 Apr 2007 07:55:22 AM |
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On 23 Apr 2007 17:40:05 -0700, Codebreaker
<Codebreaker@bigsecret.com> wrote:
And they say, monkey turned into a human being 3 billions years ago.
But when we ask them to produce the relevant document
as evidence all they
come up with are some camels bones dating back 3 centurie only.
No "they" don't
The fossil record of earliest hominoids is 3-5 MILLION
years old---and they aren't considered proper "humans"
They only exhibit SOME characteristics of evolvement
that would later show difference between ape and human.
Subsequent fossil records show a CONTINUOUS evolvement
of various lines up to and including the recent "cave"
dwellers around the ice age (which is relatively
recent)
.
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| User: "DanielSan" |
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| Title: Re: Separation of Church and State |
22 Apr 2007 02:53:40 PM |
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birdog wrote:
"Codebreaker" <Codebreaker@bigsecret.com> wrote in message
news:1177176411.673991.152330@e65g2000hsc.googlegroups.com...
On Apr 21, 1:14 pm, Blazing Laser wrote:
Jefferson is on record as advocating 'a wall of separation between
church and state', but people today, especially Christians, don't seem
to realize that he made this promise to -religious- people, not
atheists. Jefferson was afraid that religion mixing with politics
would corrupt not the government but the church. And if you open your
eyes and look around you, you'll see that that's exactly what's
happening today, with the erosion of the wall between church and state
that's gone on so far.
The fundamentalist Christian church has become a wholly-owned
subsidiary of the GOP. Crooked religious leaders have sold out to the
party for their own self-aggranidzement. Christians who profess to
believe in principles morality are completely blind to the corruption
and criminality of the GOP because these corrupt leaders tell them
it's no less than their Christian duty to vote Republican. And anyone
who fights to keep religion out of courtrooms or public schools (like
the ACLU) is unfairly bashed as being anti-Christian.
This is a textbook case of a 'Faustian bargain'. By believing
uncritically, and by being taught that getting what you want is more
important than principles, Christians have sold out to the Devil
himself.
If you don't like it, go and drink from the SEA.
Constitutionally, there AIN'T no "separation of church and state".
So, Thomas Jefferson was lying when he said:
"Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between
man and his God, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his
worship, that the legitimate powers of government reach actions only,
and not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the
whole American people which declared that their legislature should "make
no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free
exercise thereof," thus building a wall of separation between church and
State. Adhering to this expression of the supreme will of the nation in
behalf of the rights of conscience, I shall see with sincere
satisfaction the progress of those sentiments which tend to restore to
man all his natural rights, convinced he has no natural right in
opposition to his social duties." --Letter to the Danbury Baptist
Association (1802)
Is that what you're saying, birdog? That you know better than Thomas
Jefferson?
--
******************************************************
* DanielSan -- alt.atheism #2226 *
*----------------------------------------------------*
* "In every country and every age, the priest had *
* been hostile to Liberty." --Thomas Jefferson *
******************************************************
.
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| User: "birdog" |
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| Title: Re: Separation of Church and State |
23 Apr 2007 10:12:24 AM |
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"DanielSan" <daniel-san@myrealbox.com> wrote in message
news:WNGdnXa4mIO_MrbbnZ2dnUVZ_tqnnZ2d@comcast.com...
birdog wrote:
"Codebreaker" <Codebreaker@bigsecret.com> wrote in message
news:1177176411.673991.152330@e65g2000hsc.googlegroups.com...
On Apr 21, 1:14 pm, Blazing Laser wrote:
Jefferson is on record as advocating 'a wall of separation between
church and state', but people today, especially Christians, don't seem
to realize that he made this promise to -religious- people, not
atheists. Jefferson was afraid that religion mixing with politics
would corrupt not the government but the church. And if you open your
eyes and look around you, you'll see that that's exactly what's
happening today, with the erosion of the wall between church and state
that's gone on so far.
The fundamentalist Christian church has become a wholly-owned
subsidiary of the GOP. Crooked religious leaders have sold out to the
party for their own self-aggranidzement. Christians who profess to
believe in principles morality are completely blind to the corruption
and criminality of the GOP because these corrupt leaders tell them
it's no less than their Christian duty to vote Republican. And anyone
who fights to keep religion out of courtrooms or public schools (like
the ACLU) is unfairly bashed as being anti-Christian.
This is a textbook case of a 'Faustian bargain'. By believing
uncritically, and by being taught that getting what you want is more
important than principles, Christians have sold out to the Devil
himself.
If you don't like it, go and drink from the SEA.
Constitutionally, there AIN'T no "separation of church and state".
So, Thomas Jefferson was lying when he said:
"Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between
man and his God, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his
worship, that the legitimate powers of government reach actions only, and
not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole
American people which declared that their legislature should "make no law
respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise
thereof," thus building a wall of separation between church and State.
Adhering to this expression of the supreme will of the nation in behalf of
the rights of conscience, I shall see with sincere satisfaction the
progress of those sentiments which tend to restore to man all his natural
rights, convinced he has no natural right in opposition to his social
duties." --Letter to the Danbury Baptist Association (1802)
Is that what you're saying, birdog? That you know better than Thomas
Jefferson?
No, you moron! I am talking about the CONSTITUTION! This "letter" is the
sole basis for the claim of separation. It has no weight whatever
Constitutionally. The Constitution was not written, approved and ratified by
Jefferson, but by representitives of the states, as they existed at that
time. A lot of them had notions that differed from the wording in the final
document, it being a product of compromise. Jefferson's letter is just
that - a letter of NO Constitutional standing.
There is no "separation of church and state" in the Constitution. Show it to
me in the document itself, not some letter from an individual. And to save
someone time, I've read the twisted and distorted legalized language
attempting to explain the connection in the Constitution.
.
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| User: "Bob LeChevalier" |
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| Title: Re: Separation of Church and State |
23 Apr 2007 04:45:02 PM |
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"birdog" <birdog@aol.com> wrote:
"DanielSan" <daniel-san@myrealbox.com> wrote in message
news:WNGdnXa4mIO_MrbbnZ2dnUVZ_tqnnZ2d@comcast.com...
"Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between
man and his God, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his
worship, that the legitimate powers of government reach actions only, and
not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole
American people which declared that their legislature should "make no law
respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise
thereof," thus building a wall of separation between church and State.
Adhering to this expression of the supreme will of the nation in behalf of
the rights of conscience, I shall see with sincere satisfaction the
progress of those sentiments which tend to restore to man all his natural
rights, convinced he has no natural right in opposition to his social
duties." --Letter to the Danbury Baptist Association (1802)
Is that what you're saying, birdog? That you know better than Thomas
Jefferson?
No, you moron! I am talking about the CONSTITUTION! This "letter" is the
sole basis for the claim of separation.
No it isn't. Read the Everson vs Board of Education decision that
quoted Jefferson. There are several PAGES of legal explanation.
Followed by a legal definition of the Establishment Clause, and ONLY
after all that is the quote from Jefferson given - not as a
justification or basis, but as an informal and eloquent equivalent for
the more careful legal definition.
It has no weight whatever Constitutionally.
It has whatever weight the USSC gives it, since THEY decide what the
Constitution means in legal terms.
But as it turns out, they have not had need to put any weight on it.
The Constitution was not written, approved and ratified by
Jefferson, but by representitives of the states, as they existed at that
time. A lot of them had notions that differed from the wording in the final
document, it being a product of compromise. Jefferson's letter is just
that - a letter of NO Constitutional standing.
There is no "separation of church and state" in the Constitution. Show it to
me in the document itself, not some letter from an individual. And to save
someone time, I've read the twisted and distorted legalized language
attempting to explain the connection in the Constitution.
If you don't understand it, that is your problem.
The USSC effectively agreed to that definition unanimously, since the
dissenters agreed with the definition but want to apply it more
strongly.
lojbab
.
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