| Topic: |
Religions > Atheism |
| User: |
"Not-easily-duped" |
| Date: |
24 Nov 2003 11:14:27 AM |
| Object: |
Separation Of Church And State Is It What God Wants? |
When you reach the Land that the Lord your God is giving you,
and occupy it, and settle down in it, and then declare to yourself:
"I must place a king over me like all the nations around me,"
make sure you place over you the king your God chooses.
You must choose one of your countrymen king over you.
You shall not put a foreigner over you who is not from among
your brethren...
As soon as he takes his seat on his royal throne, he must write
for himself a copy of this Law/Torah, he must keep it and
read it all the day of his life that he may learn to revere the Lord
his God, by being careful to observe all the Law and serve with
justice his fellow men. Deut 17:14-20
How can anyone tell me that this God is nolonger interested in
matters related to states, therefor we should separate Church and State?
This God is the source of Law and the God of principalities and dominions
How could he possibly be indiferent to politics?
WOE TO THOSE WHO SAY:"LET US SEPARATE CHRIST AND STATE."
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| User: "SumBuny" |
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| Title: Re: Still a Christian Nation (wasRe: Separation Of Church And State) |
09 Dec 2003 05:54:24 PM |
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"Mark Johnson" <102334.12@compuserve.com> wrote in message
news:irictvct2tk021ia3j4hibddgdunoah96a@4ax.com...
Alberich <Alberich@NoSpam.com> wrote:
And none suppressed by another sect or society.
Btw - you forget the Alabama state constitution.
Roll tide!
ROLL TIDE!
I do not see them anywhere near the championship bowls....however, there is
a shout of Geaux Tigres.....
Your odd job of snipping makes your message entirely garbled. No
wonder maf and SumBuny mock your skewed vision
Like you, they're fools.
But you are the one providing all the foolish material with which we
work....
Buny
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| User: "SumBuny" |
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| Title: Re: Still a Christian Nation (wasRe: Separation Of Church And State) |
10 Dec 2003 05:39:50 PM |
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"Mark Johnson" <102334.12@compuserve.com> wrote in message
news:8boetvov4gqcbcd7a8gs34qj9falfg1i9h@4ax.com...
"SumBuny" <sumbunyTHIS_DOES_NOT_BELONG_HERE@cox.net> wrote:
But you are the one providing all the foolish material with which we
work....
Buny
'sum', you just make up stuff about me, because you can't deal with
what's on the screen in front of you.
You're writing to me, remember?
If I were "writing to you," I would be e-mailing....I respond to posts for
all to read, so I am writing to whomever wishes to read...
"writing to you"...rather egocentric, isn't MJ?
Buny
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| User: "Mark Johnson" |
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| Title: Re: Still a Christian Nation (wasRe: Separation Of Church And State) |
11 Dec 2003 04:14:24 PM |
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"SumBuny" <sumbunyTHIS_DOES_NOT_BELONG_HERE@cox.net> wrote:
"Mark Johnson" <102334.12@compuserve.com> wrote in message
news:8boetvov4gqcbcd7a8gs34qj9falfg1i9h@4ax.com...
"SumBuny" <sumbunyTHIS_DOES_NOT_BELONG_HERE@cox.net> wrote:
You're writing to me, remember?
If I were "writing to you," I would be e-mailing.
Quick - who was the first President of the United States?
Peace.
----------------------------------------
Theorem: All numbers are equal.
Choose arbitrary a and b, and let t = a + b.
(a + b)(a - b) = t(a - b)
a^2 - b^2 = ta - tb
a^2 - ta = b^2 - tb
a^2 - ta + (t^2)/4 = b^2 - tb + (t^2)/4
(a - t/2)^2 = (b - t/2)^2
a - t/2 = b - t/2
a = b
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| User: "SumBuny" |
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| Title: Re: Still a Christian Nation (wasRe: Separation Of Church And State) |
11 Dec 2003 04:46:36 PM |
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"Mark Johnson" <102334.12@compuserve.com> wrote in message
news:21rhtvkbgpu9uqjjkk3kid7liub1nl0lh2@4ax.com...
"SumBuny" <sumbunyTHIS_DOES_NOT_BELONG_HERE@cox.net> wrote:
"Mark Johnson" <102334.12@compuserve.com> wrote in message
news:8boetvov4gqcbcd7a8gs34qj9falfg1i9h@4ax.com...
"SumBuny" <sumbunyTHIS_DOES_NOT_BELONG_HERE@cox.net> wrote:
You're writing to me, remember?
If I were "writing to you," I would be e-mailing.
Quick - who was the first President of the United States?
The president that was in office under the Mayflower Compact which was the
government in charge in 1776 (before the Constitution and election of
Washington)...that *was* when the US declared independence from England, was
it not?
Buny
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| User: "Mark Johnson" |
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| Title: Re: Still a Christian Nation (wasRe: Separation Of Church And State) |
12 Dec 2003 09:59:30 PM |
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"SumBuny" <sumbunyTHIS_DOES_NOT_BELONG_HERE@cox.net> wrote:
"Mark Johnson" <102334.12@compuserve.com> wrote in message
news:21rhtvkbgpu9uqjjkk3kid7liub1nl0lh2@4ax.com...
"SumBuny" <sumbunyTHIS_DOES_NOT_BELONG_HERE@cox.net> wrote:
"Mark Johnson" <102334.12@compuserve.com> wrote in message
news:8boetvov4gqcbcd7a8gs34qj9falfg1i9h@4ax.com...
"SumBuny" <sumbunyTHIS_DOES_NOT_BELONG_HERE@cox.net> wrote:
The president that was in office under the Mayflower Compact which was the
government in charge in 1776 (before the Constitution and election of
Washington)...that *was* when the US declared independence from England, was
it not?
'sum' - first President of the United States - George Washington.
Who is buried in Grant's tomb? That one I'll leave you to figure out.
Peace.
---------------------------------------
One mark of a deteriorating society is when its people cannot
discern truth from lies. Another is when they don't even bother
to try and will believe whatever their itching ears want to hear.
[Cal Thomas, 4 SEP 2000]
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| User: "SumBuny" |
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| Title: Re: Still a Christian Nation (wasRe: Separation Of Church And State) |
13 Dec 2003 05:31:39 PM |
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"Mark Johnson" <102334.12@compuserve.com> wrote in message
news:fj3ltvkgikh71iv1psq6s3o4ft65knu1dm@4ax.com...
"SumBuny" <sumbunyTHIS_DOES_NOT_BELONG_HERE@cox.net> wrote:
"Mark Johnson" <102334.12@compuserve.com> wrote in message
news:21rhtvkbgpu9uqjjkk3kid7liub1nl0lh2@4ax.com...
"SumBuny" <sumbunyTHIS_DOES_NOT_BELONG_HERE@cox.net> wrote:
"Mark Johnson" <102334.12@compuserve.com> wrote in message
news:8boetvov4gqcbcd7a8gs34qj9falfg1i9h@4ax.com...
"SumBuny" <sumbunyTHIS_DOES_NOT_BELONG_HERE@cox.net> wrote:
The president that was in office under the Mayflower Compact which was
the
government in charge in 1776 (before the Constitution and election of
Washington)...that *was* when the US declared independence from England,
was
it not?
'sum' - first President of the United States - George Washington.
I thought that he was a general in the Continental Army in 1776....he was
not elected president until after that...who was his commander in chief in
1776?
Buny
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| User: "Mark Johnson" |
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| Title: Re: Still a Christian Nation (wasRe: Separation Of Church And State) |
14 Dec 2003 03:38:00 AM |
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"SumBuny" <sumbunyTHIS_DOES_NOT_BELONG_HERE@cox.net> wrote:
'sum' - first President of the United States - George Washington.
I thought that he was a general in the Continental Army in 1776.
And our first President. Quick - who's buried in Grant's tomb?
Peace.
---------------------------------------
One mark of a deteriorating society is when its people cannot
discern truth from lies. Another is when they don't even bother
to try and will believe whatever their itching ears want to hear.
[Cal Thomas, 4 SEP 2000]
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| User: "SumBuny" |
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| Title: Re: Still a Christian Nation (wasRe: Separation Of Church And State) |
14 Dec 2003 12:15:43 PM |
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"Mark Johnson" <102334.12@compuserve.com> wrote in message
news:rpbotvg7booa00e1771h0cavjrbh0rhtti@4ax.com...
"SumBuny" <sumbunyTHIS_DOES_NOT_BELONG_HERE@cox.net> wrote:
'sum' - first President of the United States - George Washington.
I thought that he was a general in the Continental Army in 1776.
And our first President. Quick - who's buried in Grant's tomb?
Who was president of the US in 1776?
Buny
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| User: "Paul Duca" |
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| Title: Re: Still a Christian Nation (wasRe: Separation Of Church And State) |
14 Dec 2003 09:00:20 AM |
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Mark Johnson wrote:
"SumBuny" <sumbunyTHIS_DOES_NOT_BELONG_HERE@cox.net> wrote:
"Mark Johnson" <102334.12@compuserve.com> wrote in message
news:21rhtvkbgpu9uqjjkk3kid7liub1nl0lh2@4ax.com...
"SumBuny" <sumbunyTHIS_DOES_NOT_BELONG_HERE@cox.net> wrote:
"Mark Johnson" <102334.12@compuserve.com> wrote in message
news:8boetvov4gqcbcd7a8gs34qj9falfg1i9h@4ax.com...
"SumBuny" <sumbunyTHIS_DOES_NOT_BELONG_HERE@cox.net> wrote:
The president that was in office under the Mayflower Compact which was the
government in charge in 1776 (before the Constitution and election of
Washington)...that *was* when the US declared independence from England, was
it not?
'sum' - first President of the United States - George Washington.
A fact that isn't even good enough to be the first question on "Who
Wants To Be A Millinsaire"
Paul
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| User: "Alberich" |
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| Title: Re: Still a Christian Nation (wasRe: Separation Of Church And State) |
09 Dec 2003 05:24:32 PM |
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On Tue, 09 Dec 2003 14:59:17 -0800, Mark Johnson
<102334.12@compuserve.com> wrote:
What, that religion is flowers and bunnies?
Something like evolutionism? Btw, whatever happened to your statement
of The Theory of? Don't you believe in it, anymore? You got your
'darwin', and so on. But there's not a lot to the 'science' of
evolutionism, from what I read. It would be nice, though, to know if
you've finally seen the light, and given up on something which
practically even refuses to be defined.
Hide your head in the sand as much as you'd like. Some of the more
intelligent among us
Keep telling yourself that, I guess. It's not going to make it so.
And how can a person back it up? Education and experience both seem
to indicate that I have some idea of what I speak. When I'm not sure
of something, I make certain to note that I'm not sure.
If you want to know what you're talking about - Al - find out what
you're talking about, first. Know what's going on.
Sadly enough, I do know--or at least have a good idea. If I were to
guess, I would say that you have your head deeply buried in the sand.
"All Democrats are Evil, all Republicans are Good, My Way is the only
True Catholicism, All who disagree with me are 'Librals'." Ask any
psychologist what they would say about a person who makes such blanket
statements, but is afraid to address topics that would seem to
contradict them. After all, you still haven't told me how Nixon and
Harding can be considered nothing but pure shimmering Goodness...
not need to repeat themselves ad nauseam to remember what their
positions on varying topics are. Apparently, we *do* need to repeat
ourselves in order for those other, less intelligent, creatures
So I'm not even a human being, eh - Al? I'm a "less intelligent
creature"?
Well, I never meant to imply that you were anything but a human being.
So if you took it that way, I apologize.
(And again, if you ever desire to discuss the science of evolution,
I'm here for you!)
Then prove it, Al.
The Theory of evolution is that evolution is caused by . . .
and you just get real 'scientific' with that, if you'd like. Fair?
As the part you snipped out said, I've already done so multiple times.
And, like you are so fond of telling others, let me tell you: Check it
out on Groups Google. It's there. If you find a scientific problem
with my statements, let me know. Until you do as much, I will assume
that you can't find any scientific fault with what I said. Fair?
First, what does Washington have to do with "how America was founded?"
Didn't you ever read about the Amercan Revolutionary War?
Of course, although I'm much more historically interested (just my own
personal interest) in WWI.
If that's what you want, go back to the revolution, or possibly our
first president.
Al, slap yourself awake, here - GEORGE WASHINGTON WASZZZZSSS . . . THE
FIRST PRESIDENT OF THESE UNITED STATES. That was the guy. It was Gen'l
Washington.
Look, you are flat-out wrong here. If you want to claim that he was
the first president under the Constitution, okay. But he was not the
first president of the United States. There's a big difference.
Didn't you ever read your American History books?
If you mean to address how the *Constitution* was
founded, under which Washington *was* the first president
Yes, he was Al. I'm glad you decided that way.
...but not the States' first president...
perhaps you
would be better served addressing those that drafted the Constitution.
Since you didn't address it the first time, I'll give you a second
shot. What did Madison and Jefferson say? They were the ones that
were instrumental in its passage, if not its construction. If I may,
let me suggest the two-volume set put out by the Library of America
entitled "The Debate on the Constitution." Should be required reading
for anyone that feels that they want to discuss it.
this: What do you think of putting the Star and Sickle in the foyer
to the U.S. Supreme Court?
This I'll also give you a second chance to answer.
Or perhaps a giant Buddha behind the
podium in the Senate chambers?
This I'll also give you another shot at.
courthouse, the appearance is that the government, acting through its
agent, Judge Moore, favors Christianity.
I should hope so. Remember:
And there's your problem. Can you honestly not see how favoring one
religion would stifle others
But it's not the gubment's business. Maybe the states, sure. It's not
up to the fed. There's a little something called - The First
Amendment. Gen'l Washington just explained it to you - above.
Read it. Read it, now. Don't keep ignoring him. Just read it, is all.
There's also something called the 14th Amendment. But I suppose you
know all about that?
It was a hypothetical. The ACLU was founded by Commies long after
Madison died.
so I'll rant and rave about irrelevant topics and then disparage the
ACLU.
Umm . . . what are you trying to deny - now? Al, it's me, here. You
can be honest with me. Do you understand who founded the ACLU?
Yes, I do. I also remember reading that he broke with the Communists
after ideolgical differences. What do I care? He could have been a
little green martian that would have voted for Nader for all I
care--the idea of a group set to preserve the rights of the people is
a good idea. Do they make mistakes on occasion? Like an other group,
the answer is, of course, "yes." Doesn't detract from the noble
purpose.
Alberich
PS--You okay? Seems like you were absent for awhile.
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| User: "Alberich" |
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| Title: Re: Still a Christian Nation (wasRe: Separation Of Church And State) |
10 Dec 2003 10:30:19 AM |
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On Wed, 10 Dec 2003 02:47:58 -0800, Mark Johnson
<102334.12@compuserve.com> wrote:
"All Democrats are Evil, all Republicans are Good
Who said anything about the GOP?
You. Shall I pull the quotes from Groups Google for you?
As for the Dem - well . . watch the
debates. Those are Dem.
Yes, and nowhere near as fun as watching McCain and Bush.
My Way is the only True Catholicism
I believe in God. And God said My Way is the only Way - True
Catholicism.
Chapter and verse, please?
All who disagree with me are 'Librals'."
And seem to think they are so 'clever', even as I point you guys out
as mindless puppets and automatons as explained and described by Ann
Coulter, Slander: Liberal Lies . . . Just to mention one book. There
are others. The lib 101 she essentially describes IS Usenet, in the
eyes of lib and libral troll. That's just the posting history, just on
this very ng. Groups.google confirms every word of that.
Let's see the hands of all those who find the irony in this!--Mark
claims the liberals are puppets, while continuously quoting from Ann
Coulter!!!
contradict them. After all, you still haven't told me how Nixon and
Harding can be considered nothing but pure shimmering Goodness.
Wasn't Reagan a Republican? So, what was his problem, Al, as you see
it?
Non-responsive to the question asked? Mark, I expect better of you!
I'll give you even a third (or is it fourth at this point) chance to
answer: If Republicans are nothing but good, how do you account for
Teapot Dome and Watergate?
not need to repeat themselves ad nauseam to remember what their
positions on varying topics are. Apparently, we *do* need to repeat
ourselves in order for those other, less intelligent, creatures
So I'm not even a human being, eh - Al? I'm a "less intelligent
creature"?
Well, I never meant to imply that you were anything but a human being.
Al - "less intelligent creature"? Do you read what you write?
Yes. My mistake, apparently, is in assuming others can understand it.
If that's what you want, go back to the revolution, or possibly our
first president.
Al, slap yourself awake, here - GEORGE WASHINGTON WASZZZZSSS . . . THE
FIRST PRESIDENT OF THESE UNITED STATES. That was the guy. It was Gen'l
Washington.
Look, you are flat-out wrong here. If you want to claim that he was
the first president under the Constitution, okay.
Al, dude -
http://www.pbs.org/georgewashington/multimedia/arnn/constitutional_convention.html
You dug yourself in, here, trying to be realll 'clever'. Just admit
you were wrong.
Show me where I was wrong. If you can prove that these website are
untrue, I'll admit I was wrong. If not, I hope you are man enough to
admit that you were wrong. For your attention:
http://articlesofconfederation.com/
http://lego70.tripod.com/us/contcongress.htm
http://www.constitutionfacts.com/abody2.shtml
http://www.marshallhall.org/hanson.html
Umm . . . what are you trying to deny - now? Al, it's me, here. You
can be honest with me. Do you understand who founded the ACLU?
Yes, I do. I also remember reading that he broke with the Communists
after ideolgical differences.
'39 so they say? Do you understand who founded the ACLU?
Remember, Al, the Commie and the lib believe this - THE LIE IS SACRED.
Uh-oh, here comes the "All liberals are evil minions of Satan rant."
That's no basis for a just and well ordered republican government. You
don't trust a Commie. You don't trust a lib. Why would you? even you,
personally? I mean, the NY Times is having to consider giving back
prizes awarded in the late 30s because their reporters so slanted the
news to favor Stalinism and conceal his butchery. You don't go by what
a Commie or lib says. You look at what they do. They might talk
freedom. But when it comes down to it, there's no freedom to place the
Decalogue in a state rotunda, precisely where it ought to be
I know! And, dammit, my neighbor's upset, too. Seems now he can't
stick his pentacle there, either.
What do I care? He could have been a
little green martian that would have voted for Nader for all I
care--the idea of a group set to preserve the rights of the people is
a good idea. Do they make mistakes on occasion? Like an other group,
the answer is, of course, "yes." Doesn't detract from the noble
purpose.
The "noble purpose" - the ACLU? The noble purpose of 'militant
humanism'? I mean . . what the heck kind of noble purpose is that
supposed to be? Look, they wouldn't even allow the Decalogue in a
state building, they hate even Catholic heresy that much, not to
mention traditional Catholicism itself, and not to mention The First
Amendment.
Yes, the problem seems to be that they *did* mention the First
Amendment.
Alberich
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| User: "Daniel Hoehr" |
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| Title: Re: Still a Christian Nation (wasRe: Separation Of Church And State) |
10 Dec 2003 03:40:31 PM |
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Alberich wrote:
On Wed, 10 Dec 2003 02:47:58 -0800, Mark Johnson
<102334.12@compuserve.com> wrote:
"All Democrats are Evil, all Republicans are Good
Who said anything about the GOP?
You. Shall I pull the quotes from Groups Google for you?
As for the Dem - well . . watch the
debates. Those are Dem.
Yes, and nowhere near as fun as watching McCain and Bush.
My Way is the only True Catholicism
I believe in God. And God said My Way is the only Way - True
Catholicism.
Chapter and verse, please?
All who disagree with me are 'Librals'."
And seem to think they are so 'clever', even as I point you guys out
as mindless puppets and automatons as explained and described by Ann
Coulter, Slander: Liberal Lies . . . Just to mention one book. There
are others. The lib 101 she essentially describes IS Usenet, in the
eyes of lib and libral troll. That's just the posting history, just on
this very ng. Groups.google confirms every word of that.
wow - His Assholiness seems a bit pissy . . . here
Let's see the hands of all those who find the irony in this!--Mark
claims the liberals are puppets, while continuously quoting from Ann
Coulter!!!
It's time for the Saint Mark Johnson Projection Show, it seems.
DH
--
paginae convertae malae
discere declinationes bonum
caseum laganum optimum
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| User: "Alberich" |
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| Title: Re: Still a Christian Nation (wasRe: Separation Of Church And State) |
10 Dec 2003 04:41:09 PM |
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On Wed, 10 Dec 2003 10:09:31 -0800, Mark Johnson
<102334.12@compuserve.com> wrote:
contradict them. After all, you still haven't told me how Nixon and
Harding can be considered nothing but pure shimmering Goodness.
Wasn't Reagan a Republican? So, what was his problem, Al, as you see
it?
Non-responsive to the question asked?
It seems to me I asked a question.
Yes, you did. And if you look at the ">"s at the side of the page,
you'll see that your question was a direct avoidance of what I asked
you. No matter. I know what you're doing...
Alberich
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| User: "Mark Johnson" |
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| Title: Re: Still a Christian Nation (wasRe: Separation Of Church And State) |
11 Dec 2003 04:16:01 PM |
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Alberich <Alberich@NoSpam.com> wrote:
On Wed, 10 Dec 2003 10:09:31 -0800, Mark Johnson
<102334.12@compuserve.com> wrote:
It seems to me I asked a question.
Yes, you did. And if you look at the ">"s at the side of the page,
you'll see that your question was a direct avoidance
----------------------------------------------------------
My Way is the only True Catholicism
I believe in God. And God said My Way is the only Way - True
Catholicism.
Chapter and verse, please?
About what? The Nicene Creed? The dogmas of The Church?
What do you want to know?
----------------------------------------------------------
You mean that? Just asking for further clarification. Help me out
here, Al.
Peace.
---------------------------------------
One mark of a deteriorating society is when its people cannot
discern truth from lies. Another is when they don't even bother
to try and will believe whatever their itching ears want to hear.
[Cal Thomas, 4 SEP 2000]
.
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| User: "Alberich" |
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| Title: Re: Still a Christian Nation (wasRe: Separation Of Church And State) |
11 Dec 2003 06:28:12 PM |
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On Thu, 11 Dec 2003 14:16:01 -0800, Mark Johnson
<102334.12@compuserve.com> wrote:
Alberich <Alberich@NoSpam.com> wrote:
On Wed, 10 Dec 2003 10:09:31 -0800, Mark Johnson
<102334.12@compuserve.com> wrote:
It seems to me I asked a question.
Yes, you did. And if you look at the ">"s at the side of the page,
you'll see that your question was a direct avoidance
----------------------------------------------------------
My Way is the only True Catholicism
I believe in God. And God said My Way is the only Way - True
Catholicism.
Chapter and verse, please?
About what? The Nicene Creed? The dogmas of The Church?
What do you want to know?
----------------------------------------------------------
You mean that? Just asking for further clarification. Help me out
here, Al.
Sorry, let me be more specific: I was looking for the Chapter and
Verse where god says that the only way is "True Catholicism."
Catholics come under fire for not understanding the Bible often
enough--I'd like to see your support for the statement that God "said"
it. Not where man believes something, not where man interpreted
something--where God said it.
Alberich
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| User: "Mark Johnson" |
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| Title: Re: Still a Christian Nation (wasRe: Separation Of Church And State) |
12 Dec 2003 09:58:32 PM |
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Alberich <Alberich@NoSpam.com> wrote:
On Thu, 11 Dec 2003 14:16:01 -0800, Mark Johnson
<102334.12@compuserve.com> wrote:
Alberich <Alberich@NoSpam.com> wrote:
On Wed, 10 Dec 2003 10:09:31 -0800, Mark Johnson
<102334.12@compuserve.com> wrote:
It seems to me I asked a question.
Yes, you did. And if you look at the ">"s at the side of the page,
you'll see that your question was a direct avoidance
----------------------------------------------------------
My Way is the only True Catholicism
I believe in God. And God said My Way is the only Way - True
Catholicism.
Chapter and verse, please?
About what? The Nicene Creed? The dogmas of The Church?
What do you want to know?
----------------------------------------------------------
You mean that? Just asking for further clarification. Help me out
here, Al.
Sorry, let me be more specific: I was looking for the Chapter and
Verse where god says that the only way is "True Catholicism."
That's what The Church teaches - dogmatically. Outside The Church
there is no salvation.
Catholics come under fire for not understanding the Bible often
enough
Gee, I guess all those 'service readings' didn't take, huh? Whatcha
been doin on Saturday afternoons?
I'd like to see your support for the statement that God "said"
it. Not where man believes something, not where man interpreted
something--where God said it.
Alberich
Where God said the outside The Church there is no salvation? That's
from God. That's Revelation. That's the God's honest . . Truth.
Peace.
---------------------------------------
One mark of a deteriorating society is when its people cannot
discern truth from lies. Another is when they don't even bother
to try and will believe whatever their itching ears want to hear.
[Cal Thomas, 4 SEP 2000]
.
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| User: "Paul Duca" |
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| Title: Re: Still a Christian Nation (wasRe: Separation Of Church And State) |
14 Dec 2003 08:56:21 AM |
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Mark Johnson wrote:
Alberich <Alberich@NoSpam.com> wrote:
On Thu, 11 Dec 2003 14:16:01 -0800, Mark Johnson
<102334.12@compuserve.com> wrote:
Alberich <Alberich@NoSpam.com> wrote:
On Wed, 10 Dec 2003 10:09:31 -0800, Mark Johnson
<102334.12@compuserve.com> wrote:
It seems to me I asked a question.
Yes, you did. And if you look at the ">"s at the side of the page,
you'll see that your question was a direct avoidance
----------------------------------------------------------
My Way is the only True Catholicism
I believe in God. And God said My Way is the only Way - True
Catholicism.
Chapter and verse, please?
About what? The Nicene Creed? The dogmas of The Church?
What do you want to know?
----------------------------------------------------------
You mean that? Just asking for further clarification. Help me out
here, Al.
Sorry, let me be more specific: I was looking for the Chapter and
Verse where god says that the only way is "True Catholicism."
That's what The Church teaches - dogmatically. Outside The Church
there is no salvation.
Catholics come under fire for not understanding the Bible often
enough
Gee, I guess all those 'service readings' didn't take, huh? Whatcha
been doin on Saturday afternoons?
Not going to church, because it ain't required on Sat. afternoon.
Paul
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| User: "Bob" |
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| Title: Re: Still a Christian Nation (wasRe: Separation Of Church And State) |
12 Dec 2003 11:16:59 PM |
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On Fri, 12 Dec 2003 19:58:32 -0800, Mark Johnson
<102334.12@compuserve.com> wrote:
Alberich <Alberich@NoSpam.com> wrote:
Sorry, let me be more specific: I was looking for the Chapter and
Verse where god says that the only way is "True Catholicism."
That's what The Church teaches - dogmatically. Outside The Church
there is no salvation.
no, it does not. that is certainly NOT catholic teaching at all. from
chapter 846 in the 'catholic catechism':
"..they could not be saved who, knowing that the catholic church was
founded as necessary by god through christ, would refuse to enter it,
or remain in it"
chapter 847:
"those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the gospel of
christ or his church, but who nevertheless seek god with a sincere
heart...try in their actions to do his will...those too may achieve
salvation"
the catholic church has always taught that rejection of the known
truth is necessary for damnation. if you KNOW the church was founded
by christ AND you refuse to enter, then you are not saved.
also, in god's 'sovereignty', he may save whom he chooses. that's why
paragraph 847 says that those who try to his will can also be saved.
the church never taught that 'outside the church there is no
salvation'.
Where God said the outside The Church there is no salvation? That's
from God. That's Revelation. That's the God's honest . . Truth.
that's your teaching. it's certainly not the teaching of the catholic
church.
---------------------------
to see who "wf3h" is, go to "qrz.com"
and enter 'wf3h' in the field
check my blog at:
http://www.bobview.blogspot.com/
.
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| User: "Mark Johnson" |
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| Title: Re: Still a Christian Nation (wasRe: Separation Of Church And State) |
13 Dec 2003 01:46:40 PM |
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(Bob) wrote:
On Fri, 12 Dec 2003 19:58:32 -0800, Mark Johnson
<102334.12@compuserve.com> wrote:
Alberich <Alberich@NoSpam.com> wrote:
the church never taught that 'outside the church there is no
salvation'.
Bob- bob - bob,bob,bob.
It's been Church teaching. It's Revelation. It's just the truth.
Now the question is over, what is meant by The Church. 'Reformists'
would insist that The Church includes just about everybody. The
Baptism of Desire is a wide road, indeed. But that doesn't make them
right. It's just their opinion, based on a desire to avoid - outside
The Church there is no salvation.
Peace.
---------------------------------------
One mark of a deteriorating society is when its people cannot
discern truth from lies. Another is when they don't even bother
to try and will believe whatever their itching ears want to hear.
[Cal Thomas, 4 SEP 2000]
.
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| User: "Bob" |
|
| Title: Re: Still a Christian Nation (wasRe: Separation Of Church And State) |
13 Dec 2003 10:45:08 PM |
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On Sat, 13 Dec 2003 11:46:40 -0800, Mark Johnson
<102334.12@compuserve.com> wrote:
wf3h@ptnosm.com (Bob) wrote:
On Fri, 12 Dec 2003 19:58:32 -0800, Mark Johnson
<102334.12@compuserve.com> wrote:
Alberich <Alberich@NoSpam.com> wrote:
the church never taught that 'outside the church there is no
salvation'.
Bob- bob - bob,bob,bob.
It's been Church teaching. It's Revelation. It's just the truth.
really? really? and really?
proof? if it's revelation, where is it revealed? if it's dogma, where
is it defined?
other than your assertions, you've cited not a single....not one
solitary..catholic document bearing an imprimatur which agrees with
you
OTOH, i have cited the catholic catechism which is the official
teaching of the church. that document does not say that 'outside the
church there is no salvation'.
---------------------------
to see who "wf3h" is, go to "qrz.com"
and enter 'wf3h' in the field
check my blog at:
http://www.bobview.blogspot.com/
.
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| User: "Mark Johnson" |
|
| Title: Re: Still a Christian Nation (wasRe: Separation Of Church And State) |
14 Dec 2003 03:36:53 AM |
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(Bob) wrote:
It's been Church teaching. It's Revelation. It's just the truth.
really? really? and really?
proof? if it's revelation, where is it revealed? if it's dogma, where
is it defined?
Outside The Church there is no salvation.
Saint Thomas Aquinas (died A.D. 1274): "There is no entering into
salvation outside the Church, just as in the time of the deluge there
was none outside the ark, which denotes the Church." (Summa
Theologiae)
Saint Augustine (died A.D. 430): "No man can find salvation except in
the Catholic Church. Outside the Catholic Church one can have
everything except salvation. One can have honor, one can have the
sacraments, one can sing alleluia, one can answer amen, one can have
faith in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Ghost,
and preach it too, but never can one find salvation except in the
Catholic Church." (Sermo ad Caesariensis Ecclesia plebem)
Saint Jerome (died A.D. 420): "As I follow no leader save Christ, so I
communicate with none but your blessedness, that is, with the Chair of
Peter. For this, I know, is the rock on which the Church is built.
....This is the ark of Noah, and he who is not found in it shall perish
when the flood prevails. ...And as for heretics, I have never spared
them; on the contrary, I have seen to it in every possible way that
the Church's enemies are also my enemies." (Manual of Patrology and
History of Theology)
Saint Peter Canisius (died A.D. 1597): "Outside of this communion - as
outside of the ark of Noah - there is absolutely no salvation for
mortals: not for Jews or pagans who never received the faith of the
Church, nor for heretics who, having received it, corrupted it;
neither for the excommunicated or those who for any other serious
cause deserve to be put away and separated from the body of the Church
like pernicious members...for the rule of Cyprian and Augustine is
certain: he will not have God for his Father who would not have the
Church for his mother." (Catechismi Latini et Germanici)
Saint Cyprian (died A.D. 258): "He who has turned his back on the
Church of Christ shall not come to the rewards of Christ; he is an
alien, a worldling, an enemy. You cannot have God for your Father if
you have not the Church for your mother. Our Lord warns us when He
says: `he that is not with Me is against Me, and he that gathereth not
with Me scattereth.' Whosoever breaks the peace and harmony of Christ
acts against Christ; whoever gathers elsewhere than in the Church
scatters the Church of Christ." (Unity of the Catholic Church)
Pope Saint Gregory the Great (A.D. 590 - 604): "Now the holy Church
universal proclaims that God cannot be truly worshipped saving within
herself, asserting that all they that are without her shall never be
saved." (Moralia)
Pope Innocent III (A.D. 1198 - 1216): "With our hearts we believe and
with our lips we confess but one Church, not that of the heretics, but
the Holy Roman Catholic and Apostolic Church, outside which we believe
that no one is saved." (Denzinger 423)
Pope Leo XII (A.D. 1823 - 1829): "We profess that there is no
salvation outside the Church. ...For the Church is the pillar and
ground of the truth. With reference to those words Augustine says: `If
any man be outside the Church he will be excluded from the number of
sons, and will not have God for Father since he has not the Church for
mother.'" (Encyclical, Ubi Primum)
Pope Pius IX (A.D. 1846 - 1878): "It must be held by faith that
outside the Apostolic Roman Church, no one can be saved; that this is
the only ark of salvation; that he who shall not have entered therein
will perish in the flood." (Denzinger 1647)
Pope Saint Pius X (A.D. 1903 - 1914): "It is our duty to recall to
everyone great and small, as the Holy Pontiff Gregory did in ages
past, the absolute necessity which is ours, to have recourse to this
Church to effect our eternal salvation." (Encyclical, Jucunda Sane)
Pope Boniface VIII in his Papal Bull Unam Sanctam (A.D. 1302): "We
declare, say, define, and pronounce that it is absolutely necessary
for the salvation of every human creature to be subject to the Roman
Pontiff."
Peace.
---------------------------------------
One mark of a deteriorating society is when its people cannot
discern truth from lies. Another is when they don't even bother
to try and will believe whatever their itching ears want to hear.
[Cal Thomas, 4 SEP 2000]
.
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| User: "Bob" |
|
| Title: Re: Still a Christian Nation (wasRe: Separation Of Church And State) |
14 Dec 2003 06:17:54 AM |
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On Sun, 14 Dec 2003 01:36:53 -0800, Mark Johnson
<102334.12@compuserve.com> wrote:
wf3h@ptnosm.com (Bob) wrote:
It's been Church teaching. It's Revelation. It's just the truth.
really? really? and really?
proof? if it's revelation, where is it revealed? if it's dogma, where
is it defined?
Outside The Church there is no salvation.
Saint Thomas Aquinas (died A.D. 1274): "There is no entering into
salvation outside the Church, just as in the time of the deluge there
was none outside the ark, which denotes the Church." (Summa
Theologiae)
acquinas was a philosophers. his work is not the dogma of the church.
the catechism, not acquinas, is the teachings of the church.
you are mistaken if you think his work defines official catholc
teaching.
Saint Augustine (died A.D. 430): "No man can find salvation except in
the Catholic Church. Outside the Catholic Church one can have
everything except salvation.
augustine's work is not the official teaching of the church. the
catechism is.
Saint Jerome (died A.D. 420):
is a doctor of the church. his work does not define the dogma of the
church, nor its teachings
where did you get the idea that acquinas or jerome or augustine's
position are official teachings, or the dogma of the church?
Pope Saint Gregory the Great (A.D. 590 - 604): "Now the holy Church
universal proclaims that God cannot be truly worshipped saving within
herself, asserting that all they that are without her shall never be
saved." (Moralia)
Pope Innocent III (A.D. 1198 - 1216): "With our hearts we believe and
with our lips we confess but one Church, not that of the heretics, but
the Holy Roman Catholic and Apostolic Church, outside which we believe
that no one is saved." (Denzinger 423)
Pope Leo XII (A.D. 1823 - 1829): "We profess that there is no
salvation outside the Church. ..
i notice these are not in context. since the catechism is the official
teaching of the church, and teaching can not contradict dogma, the
fact you've clipped these pieces is known as 'data mining'. the
catechism states that one must know that the church was founded by
christ and refuse to enter. that is the official teaching of the
church
the fact you've clipped these bits is the same as clipping the same
phrases from the catechism.
---------------------------
to see who "wf3h" is, go to "qrz.com"
and enter 'wf3h' in the field
check my blog at:
http://www.bobview.blogspot.com/
.
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| User: "Mark Johnson" |
|
| Title: Re: Still a Christian Nation (wasRe: Separation Of Church And State) |
14 Dec 2003 01:29:20 PM |
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(Bob) wrote:
On Sun, 14 Dec 2003 01:36:53 -0800, Mark Johnson
<102334.12@compuserve.com> wrote:
(Bob) wrote:
Outside The Church there is no salvation.
Saint Thomas Aquinas (died A.D. 1274): "There is no entering into
salvation outside the Church, just as in the time of the deluge there
was none outside the ark, which denotes the Church." (Summa
Theologiae)
acquinas was a philosophers. his work is not the dogma of the church.
the catechism, not acquinas, is the teachings of the church.
If the catechism, itself, is dogma - then you've got a problem:
http://www.geocities.com/ymjcath/MassNote.htm
you are mistaken if you think his work defines official catholc
teaching.
And in the case, above, it did.
Saint Augustine (died A.D. 430): "No man can find salvation except in
the Catholic Church. Outside the Catholic Church one can have
everything except salvation.
augustine's work is not the official teaching of the church. the
catechism is.
Saint Jerome (died A.D. 420):
is a doctor of the church. his work does not define the dogma of the
church, nor its teachings
where did you get the idea that acquinas or jerome or augustine's
position are official teachings, or the dogma of the church?
It show the agreement of some of the greatest Doctors and fathers of
The Church.
Pope Saint Gregory the Great (A.D. 590 - 604): "Now the holy Church
universal proclaims that God cannot be truly worshipped saving within
herself, asserting that all they that are without her shall never be
saved." (Moralia)
He was Pope, btw.
I think you missed that.
Pope Innocent III (A.D. 1198 - 1216): "With our hearts we believe and
with our lips we confess but one Church, not that of the heretics, but
the Holy Roman Catholic and Apostolic Church, outside which we believe
that no one is saved." (Denzinger 423)
Oops. There's another Pope.
Looks like you missed that, too.
Pope Leo XII (A.D. 1823 - 1829): "We profess that there is no
salvation outside the Church. ..
And even another Pope. And there's even more I didn't quote.
There's more.
i notice these are not in context. since the catechism is the official
teaching of the church, and teaching can not contradict dogma
So, if Pope Leo XII contradicts the 'inclusive-language' CCC, then
Pope Leo was the one who was wrong? Gee . . is that how it works?
Peace.
---------------------------------------
One mark of a deteriorating society is when its people cannot
discern truth from lies. Another is when they don't even bother
to try and will believe whatever their itching ears want to hear.
[Cal Thomas, 4 SEP 2000]
.
|
|
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| User: "Bob" |
|
| Title: Re: Still a Christian Nation (wasRe: Separation Of Church And State) |
14 Dec 2003 02:04:08 PM |
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On Sun, 14 Dec 2003 11:29:20 -0800, Mark Johnson
<102334.12@compuserve.com> wrote:
wf3h@ptnosm.com (Bob) wrote:
On Sun, 14 Dec 2003 01:36:53 -0800, Mark Johnson
<102334.12@compuserve.com> wrote:
wf3h@ptnosm.com (Bob) wrote:
Outside The Church there is no salvation.
Saint Thomas Aquinas (died A.D. 1274): "There is no entering into
salvation outside the Church, just as in the time of the deluge there
was none outside the ark, which denotes the Church." (Summa
Theologiae)
acquinas was a philosophers. his work is not the dogma of the church.
the catechism, not acquinas, is the teachings of the church.
If the catechism, itself, is dogma - then you've got a problem:
ROFLMAO!! if you can find anywhere i said the catechism is a 'dogma',
i'll recognize you as pope.
and where, pray tell, is it stated acquinas's philosophy is dogma?
nowhere...
you are mistaken if you think his work defines official catholc
teaching.
And in the case, above, it did.
as i said, prove it.
is a doctor of the church. his work does not define the dogma of the
church, nor its teachings
where did you get the idea that acquinas or jerome or augustine's
position are official teachings, or the dogma of the church?
It show the agreement of some of the greatest Doctors and fathers of
The Church.
meaningless. they are not dogma. that does not constitute dogma.
sorry.
Pope Saint Gregory the Great (A.D. 590 - 604): "Now the holy Church
universal proclaims that God cannot be truly worshipped saving within
herself, asserting that all they that are without her shall never be
saved." (Moralia)
He was Pope, btw.
and you think that somehow, a teaching from 1500 years ago has,
without amplification or explanation, been missed in the catechism
incidentally...where IS your view in official catholic teaching? since
there's no mention at ALL that your view is represented in official
catholic teaching, but there IS info to the contrary...where is your
view represented in official catholic teaching?
it's not.
I think you missed that.
Pope Innocent III (A.D. 1198 - 1216): "With our hearts we believe and
with our lips we confess but one Church, not that of the heretics, but
the Holy Roman Catholic and Apostolic Church, outside which we believe
that no one is saved." (Denzinger 423)
Oops. There's another Pope.
Looks like you missed that, too.
golly. only from 800 years ago. taking popes out of context is bad
form. that's why i quoted the entire reference from the catechism. you
didnt quote the entire passage from pope innocent.
Pope Leo XII (A.D. 1823 - 1829): "We profess that there is no
salvation outside the Church. ..
And even another Pope. And there's even more I didn't quote.
and, again, somehow the official teaching of the church doesnt teach
that. golly. the catechism, written in the vatican, approved by the
pope, with the imprimatur of joseph cardinal ratizinger, does not,
anywhere, agree with you.
hmmm...me thinks quoting out of context is the problem.
There's more.
i notice these are not in context. since the catechism is the official
teaching of the church, and teaching can not contradict dogma
So, if Pope Leo XII contradicts the 'inclusive-language' CCC, then
Pope Leo was the one who was wrong? Gee . . is that how it works?
ROFLMAO!! tell it to ratzinger. he's the one who's disagreeing with
you on the official teachings of the church.
nowhere does the church teach that salvation is not possible outside
the church.
---------------------------
to see who "wf3h" is, go to "qrz.com"
and enter 'wf3h' in the field
check my blog at:
http://www.bobview.blogspot.com/
.
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| User: "Mark Johnson" |
|
| Title: Re: Still a Christian Nation (wasRe: Separation Of Church And State) |
17 Dec 2003 02:04:03 AM |
|
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(Bob) wrote:
and you think that somehow, a teaching from 1500 years ago has,
without amplification or explanation, been missed in the catechism
incidentally...where IS your view in official catholic teaching?
And:
Pope Innocent III (A.D. 1198 - 1216): "With our hearts we believe and
with our lips we confess but one Church, not that of the heretics, but
the Holy Roman Catholic and Apostolic Church, outside which we believe
that no one is saved." (Denzinger 423)
Oops. There's another Pope.
Looks like you missed that, too.
golly. only from 800 years ago. taking popes out of context is bad
Out of context? What other context did he mean, other than - OUTSIDE
THE CHURCH THERE IS NO SALVATION?
Pope Leo XII (A.D. 1823 - 1829): "We profess that there is no
salvation outside the Church. ..
And even another Pope. And there's even more I didn't quote.
and, again, somehow the official teaching of the church doesnt teach
that. golly. the catechism, written in the vatican
Yeah - you crazy. Look, if you think a catechism is not only an ex
cathedra pronouncement, but one to somehow trump all others, then just
by that, alone, you've got a problem in The Roman Catechism, if that,
too, is a dogma that trumps all others.
Can't have it both ways.
i notice these are not in context. since the catechism is the official
teaching of the church, and teaching can not contradict dogma
So, if Pope Leo XII contradicts the 'inclusive-language' CCC, then
Pope Leo was the one who was wrong? Gee . . is that how it works?
ROFLMAO!! tell it to ratzinger. he's the one who's disagreeing with
you on the official teachings of the church.
Trust me. Even he has to say - OUTSIDE THE CHURCH THERE IS NO
SALVATION.
Remember what I quoted:
Saint Thomas Aquinas (died A.D. 1274): "There is no entering into
salvation outside the Church, just as in the time of the deluge there
was none outside the ark, which denotes the Church." (Summa
Theologiae)
Saint Augustine (died A.D. 430): "No man can find salvation except in
the Catholic Church. Outside the Catholic Church one can have
everything except salvation. One can have honor, one can have the
sacraments, one can sing alleluia, one can answer amen, one can have
faith in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Ghost,
and preach it too, but never can one find salvation except in the
Catholic Church." (Sermo ad Caesariensis Ecclesia plebem)
Saint Jerome (died A.D. 420): "As I follow no leader save Christ, so I
communicate with none but your blessedness, that is, with the Chair of
Peter. For this, I know, is the rock on which the Church is built.
....This is the ark of Noah, and he who is not found in it shall perish
when the flood prevails. ...And as for heretics, I have never spared
them; on the contrary, I have seen to it in every possible way that
the Church's enemies are also my enemies." (Manual of Patrology and
History of Theology)
Saint Peter Canisius (died A.D. 1597): "Outside of this communion - as
outside of the ark of Noah - there is absolutely no salvation for
mortals: not for Jews or pagans who never received the faith of the
Church, nor for heretics who, having received it, corrupted it;
neither for the excommunicated or those who for any other serious
cause deserve to be put away and separated from the body of the Church
like pernicious members...for the rule of Cyprian and Augustine is
certain: he will not have God for his Father who would not have the
Church for his mother." (Catechismi Latini et Germanici)
Saint Cyprian (died A.D. 258): "He who has turned his back on the
Church of Christ shall not come to the rewards of Christ; he is an
alien, a worldling, an enemy. You cannot have God for your Father if
you have not the Church for your mother. Our Lord warns us when He
says: `he that is not with Me is against Me, and he that gathereth not
with Me scattereth.' Whosoever breaks the peace and harmony of Christ
acts against Christ; whoever gathers elsewhere than in the Church
scatters the Church of Christ." (Unity of the Catholic Church)
Pope Saint Gregory the Great (A.D. 590 - 604): "Now the holy Church
universal proclaims that God cannot be truly worshipped saving within
herself, asserting that all they that are without her shall never be
saved." (Moralia)
Pope Innocent III (A.D. 1198 - 1216): "With our hearts we believe and
with our lips we confess but one Church, not that of the heretics, but
the Holy Roman Catholic and Apostolic Church, outside which we believe
that no one is saved." (Denzinger 423)
Pope Leo XII (A.D. 1823 - 1829): "We profess that there is no
salvation outside the Church. ...For the Church is the pillar and
ground of the truth. With reference to those words Augustine says: `If
any man be outside the Church he will be excluded from the number of
sons, and will not have God for Father since he has not the Church for
mother.'" (Encyclical, Ubi Primum)
Pope Pius IX (A.D. 1846 - 1878): "It must be held by faith that
outside the Apostolic Roman Church, no one can be saved; that this is
the only ark of salvation; that he who shall not have entered therein
will perish in the flood." (Denzinger 1647)
Pope Saint Pius X (A.D. 1903 - 1914): "It is our duty to recall to
everyone great and small, as the Holy Pontiff Gregory did in ages
past, the absolute necessity which is ours, to have recourse to this
Church to effect our eternal salvation." (Encyclical, Jucunda Sane)
Pope Boniface VIII in his Papal Bull Unam Sanctam (A.D. 1302): "We
declare, say, define, and pronounce that it is absolutely necessary
for the salvation of every human creature to be subject to the Roman
Pontiff."
Peace.
---------------------------------------
One mark of a deteriorating society is when its people cannot
discern truth from lies. Another is when they don't even bother
to try and will believe whatever their itching ears want to hear.
[Cal Thomas, 4 SEP 2000]
.
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| User: "Alberich" |
|
| Title: Re: Still a Christian Nation (wasRe: Separation Of Church And State) |
12 Dec 2003 10:45:58 PM |
|
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On Fri, 12 Dec 2003 19:58:32 -0800, Mark Johnson
<102334.12@compuserve.com> wrote:
Alberich <Alberich@NoSpam.com> wrote:
On Thu, 11 Dec 2003 14:16:01 -0800, Mark Johnson
<102334.12@compuserve.com> wrote:
Alberich <Alberich@NoSpam.com> wrote:
On Wed, 10 Dec 2003 10:09:31 -0800, Mark Johnson
<102334.12@compuserve.com> wrote:
It seems to me I asked a question.
Yes, you did. And if you look at the ">"s at the side of the page,
you'll see that your question was a direct avoidance
----------------------------------------------------------
My Way is the only True Catholicism
I believe in God. And God said My Way is the only Way - True
Catholicism.
Chapter and verse, please?
About what? The Nicene Creed? The dogmas of The Church?
What do you want to know?
----------------------------------------------------------
You mean that? Just asking for further clarification. Help me out
here, Al.
Sorry, let me be more specific: I was looking for the Chapter and
Verse where god says that the only way is "True Catholicism."
That's what The Church teaches - dogmatically. Outside The Church
there is no salvation.
We can argue that point later. But there is a difference between God
saying it, and the Church saying it.
Catholics come under fire for not understanding the Bible often
enough
Gee, I guess all those 'service readings' didn't take, huh? Whatcha
been doin on Saturday afternoons?
You're reading comprehension suffers. I said "Catholics," not myself,
not even "you." I used a generic term.
I'd like to see your support for the statement that God "said"
it. Not where man believes something, not where man interpreted
something--where God said it.
Alberich
Where God said the outside The Church there is no salvation? That's
from God. That's Revelation. That's the God's honest . . Truth.
I missed that part in Revelation--the part where God says that outside
the Catholic Church there is no salvation. Which chapter? I'll find
the verse myself.
Alberich
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| User: "Mark Johnson" |
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| Title: Re: Still a Christian Nation (wasRe: Separation Of Church And State) |
13 Dec 2003 01:25:14 PM |
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Alberich <Alberich@NoSpam.com> wrote:
On Fri, 12 Dec 2003 19:58:32 -0800, Mark Johnson
<102334.12@compuserve.com> wrote:
Alberich <Alberich@NoSpam.com> wrote:
On Thu, 11 Dec 2003 14:16:01 -0800, Mark Johnson
<102334.12@compuserve.com> wrote:
Alberich <Alberich@NoSpam.com> wrote:
On Wed, 10 Dec 2003 10:09:31 -0800, Mark Johnson
<102334.12@compuserve.com> wrote:
That's what The Church teaches - dogmatically. Outside The Church
there is no salvation.
We can argue that point later.
Al, it's dogma. There's nuthin to argue, dude. You either confess it,
or you go somewhere else. Free will.
Catholics come under fire for not understanding the Bible often
enough
Gee, I guess all those 'service readings' didn't take, huh? Whatcha
been doin on Saturday afternoons?
You're reading comprehension suffers. I said "Catholics," not myself,
not even "you." I used a generic term.
But Catholicism isn't generic, not for myself, not even for "you".
Outside The Church there is no salvation. That Church is the one, true
Church, which bear all four marks of the true church. That Church is
The Roman Catholic Church. It's definitely not the Reformed Catholic
church. That much you can know.
Where God said the outside The Church there is no salvation? That's
from God. That's Revelation. That's the God's honest . . Truth.
I missed that part in Revelation--the part where God says that outside
the Catholic Church there is no salvation.
Al, either you confess it, or find another religion. Free will.
Peace.
---------------------------------------
One mark of a deteriorating society is when its people cannot
discern truth from lies. Another is when they don't even bother
to try and will believe whatever their itching ears want to hear.
[Cal Thomas, 4 SEP 2000]
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| User: "Paul Duca" |
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| Title: Re: Still a Christian Nation (wasRe: Separation Of Church And State) |
14 Dec 2003 08:57:26 AM |
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Mark Johnson wrote:
Alberich <Alberich@NoSpam.com> wrote:
On Fri, 12 Dec 2003 19:58:32 -0800, Mark Johnson
<102334.12@compuserve.com> wrote:
Alberich <Alberich@NoSpam.com> wrote:
On Thu, 11 Dec 2003 14:16:01 -0800, Mark Johnson
<102334.12@compuserve.com> wrote:
Alberich <Alberich@NoSpam.com> wrote:
On Wed, 10 Dec 2003 10:09:31 -0800, Mark Johnson
<102334.12@compuserve.com> wrote:
That's what The Church teaches - dogmatically. Outside The Church
there is no salvation.
We can argue that point later.
Al, it's dogma. There's nuthin to argue, dude. You either confess it,
or you go somewhere else. Free will.
Catholics come under fire for not understanding the Bible often
enough
Gee, I guess all those 'service readings' didn't take, huh? Whatcha
been doin on Saturday afternoons?
You're reading comprehension suffers. I said "Catholics," not myself,
not even "you." I used a generic term.
But Catholicism isn't generic, not for myself, not even for "you".
Outside The Church there is no salvation. That Church is the one, true
Church, which bear all four marks of the true church. That Church is
The Roman Catholic Church.
You STILL refuse to tell us how much money you have gotten from
it....
Paul
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| User: "Bob" |
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| Title: Re: Still a Christian Nation (wasRe: Separation Of Church And State) |
13 Dec 2003 10:43:20 PM |
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On Sat, 13 Dec 2003 11:25:14 -0800, Mark Johnson
<102334.12@compuserve.com> wrote:
Alberich <Alberich@NoSpam.com> wrote:
On Fri, 12 Dec 2003 19:58:32 -0800, Mark Johnson
<102334.12@compuserve.com> wrote:
Alberich <Alberich@NoSpam.com> wrote:
On Thu, 11 Dec 2003 14:16:01 -0800, Mark Johnson
<102334.12@compuserve.com> wrote:
Alberich <Alberich@NoSpam.com> wrote:
On Wed, 10 Dec 2003 10:09:31 -0800, Mark Johnson
<102334.12@compuserve.com> wrote:
That's what The Church teaches - dogmatically. Outside The Church
there is no salvation.
We can argue that point later.
Al, it's dogma. There's nuthin to argue, dude. You either confess it,
or you go somewhere else. Free will.
really? proof that it's 'dogma'? because it's not. you havent provided
any reference whatsoever. the catechism specifically contradicts you.
But Catholicism isn't generic, not for myself, not even for "you".
Outside The Church there is no salvation.
that is incorrect. a catholic priest, father charles coughlin, was
excommunicated for preaching that, in contravention to the catechism
and dogma of the church
---------------------------
to see who "wf3h" is, go to "qrz.com"
and enter 'wf3h' in the field
check my blog at:
http://www.bobview.blogspot.com/
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| User: "Mark Johnson" |
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| Title: Re: Still a Christian Nation (wasRe: Separation Of Church And State) |
14 Dec 2003 03:28:01 AM |
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(Bob) wrote:
On Sat, 13 Dec 2003 11:25:14 -0800, Mark Johnson
<102334.12@compuserve.com> wrote:
Alberich <Alberich@NoSpam.com> wrote:
On Fri, 12 Dec 2003 19:58:32 -0800, Mark Johnson
<102334.12@compuserve.com> wrote:
Alberich <Alberich@NoSpam.com> wrote:
On Thu, 11 Dec 2003 14:16:01 -0800, Mark Johnson
<102334.12@compuserve.com> wrote:
Alberich <Alberich@NoSpam.com> wrote:
On Wed, 10 Dec 2003 10:09:31 -0800, Mark Johnson
<102334.12@compuserve.com> wrote:
Al, it's dogma. There's nuthin to argue, dude. You either confess it,
or you go somewhere else. Free will.
really? proof that it's 'dogma'? because it's not.
Yes, it is.
But Catholicism isn't generic, not for myself, not even for "you".
Outside The Church there is no salvation.
that is incorrect. a catholic priest, father charles coughlin, was
excommunicated for preaching that
You MUST be joking. He was censured for antisemitism, basically, and
ordered back to parish work. Coughlin was not only the Limbaugh of his
day, in a sense, but had a FAR greater percentage of the population
for a radio audience. The one you're thinking of is Fr. Leonard
Feeney.
Peace.
---------------------------------------
One mark of a deteriorating society is when its people cannot
discern truth from lies. Another is when they don't even bother
to try and will believe whatever their itching ears want to hear.
[Cal Thomas, 4 SEP 2000]
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