Separation of church and state university

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Topic:	Religions > Atheism
User:	""
Date:	06 Nov 2005 08:42:29 AM
Object:	Separation of church and state university

http://www.worldmagblog.com/blog/archives/020006.html
November 05, 2005
Separation of church and state university
The University of Wisconsin - Eau Claire doesn't want its resident
assistants putting "undue pressure" on students in their charge by leading
Bible studies in the dorms. One RA believes his First Amendment rights have
been infringed upon and what he does on his own time is his business.
However, the school considers RAs "state employees" on the clock 24/7. Is
the university within its rights, or is this a wrong-headed restriction of
the RAs' religious liberty?
Posted by Mickey McLean at November 5, 2005 08:01 AM
Comments
*****************************************************************
Posting and reading from alt.politics.usa.constitution OR alt.education
You are invited to check out the following:
The Rise of the Theocratic States of America
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/theocracy.htm
American Theocrats - Past and Present
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/theocrats.htm
The Constitutional Principle: Separation of Church and State
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/index.html
[and to join the discussion group for the above site and/or Separation of
Church and State in general, listed below]
HRSepCnS · Hampton Roads [Virginia] SepChurch&State
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HRSepCnS/
[Its not just Hampton Roads folks who are members, there are members from
all over the U.S. and a couple from overseas as well]
***************************************************************
.. . . You can't understand a phrase such as "Congress shall make no law
respecting an establishment of religion" by syllogistic reasoning. Words
take their meaning from social as well as textual contexts, which is why "a
page of history is worth a volume of logic." New York Trust Co. v. Eisner,
256 U.S. 345, 349, 41 S.Ct. 506, 507, 65 L.Ed. 963 (1921) (Holmes, J.).
Sherman v. Community Consol. Dist. 21, 980 F.2d 437, 445 (7th Cir. 1992)
.. . .
****************************************************************
THE CONSTITUTIONAL PRINCIPLE:
SEPARATION OF CHURCH AND STATE

http://members.tripod.com/~candst/index.html
****************************************************************
.

User: ""
Title: Re: Separation of church and state university	14 Nov 2005 03:39:41 PM

"The Fool" <kands00@hotmail.com> wrote:

:|Jefferson, Himself, spoke to this issue, dealing with the University of
:|Virginia, where he was a regent. He said that there would be no
:|violation of the separation of church and state if there was equal
:|access and opportunity of all faiths. He said students there could use
:|the buildings, the power, and the resources, so long as all faiths were
:|open to the same access. Now, I don't believe in the Separation, but
:|Jefferson did, and that was his reasoning.

Oct 20, 9:17 am show options
Newsgroups: alt.politics.liberalism, alt.politics.usa.constitution,
alt.politics.usa.republican, alt.education, alt.religion.christian
From:

- Find messages by this author
Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2005 10:17:45 -0400
Local: Thurs, Oct 20 2005 9:17 am
Subject: Re: Let's break down wall between church, state
"The Fool" <kand...@hotmail.com> wrote:

:|
:|

wrote:
:|> >:| Further, it
:|> >:|should be noted, that a teacher would be sued for saying in their
:|> >:|official capacity what Jefferson wrote here in this same letter in his
:|> >:|official capacity.
:|>
:|> Further it should be noted
:|> (1) Jefferson was totally against combining religion and schools
:|>
:|
:|I posted this on the groups years ago, so it's time to bring it out
:|again. Read and be educated, because your knowledge of Jefferson is
:|obviously flawed...
:|

FALSE

:|
:|
:|Consider this from the Mintues of the Board of Visitors, University of
:|Virginia, 1822-1825 - a Report to the President and Directors of the
:|Literary Fund.
:|
:|It was WRITTEN BY Thomas Jefferson as Rector of the meeting. Also,
:|present in that meeting Thomas Jefferson (Rector), James Breckenridge,
:|Joseph C Cabell, John H. Cocke and James Madison.
:|
:|The summary of the meeting shows them in agreement that religion
:|should be taught on the campus alongside the other buildings. The
:|students would have the right and ability to opt to be instructed in
:|those buildings on campus. This is equal to the concept of teaching
:|creationism as an optional elective class. There would be no
:|constitutional problem with that, according to these founders. Here
:|is their words on it.
:|

Gee dude, You forgot to include the words
but here:
MY TURN
EVIDENCE
ITEM # 1
Thomas Jefferson supported Bible reading in school; this is proven
by his service as the first president of the Washington, D.C. public
schools, which used the Bible and Watt's Hymns as textbooks for reading.
(The aove is false as you will see from the following URL)
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/tnppage/arg6.htm
********************************************************************************
ITEM # 2
Historical Data Against "Vouchers"
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/vouchist.htm
There is info at the above regarding UVA
*******************************************************************************
ITEM # 3
JEFFERSON ON EDUCATION AND RELIGION:
A summation of Jefferson's views on education and religion by Leonard W.
Levy can be found at the following:
Jefferson, Religion, and the Public Schools.
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/tnppage/jeffschl.htm
Jefferson, Religion, and the Public Schools.
This extract is taken from Leonard Levy's book, Jefferson and Civil
Liberties: The Darker Side, pp. 8 - 15, footnotes pp. 188 - 189.
Jefferson's consistency in applying the principle of the separation
of church and state was also evident in the field of education. It has been
contended that he advocated the use of public funds in Virginia for a
school of theology for the training of clergymen; that he approved of
elaborate arrangements for the students of private theological schools to
share the facilities of the University of Virginia; that he recommended
that a room in the university be used for worship; and that he did not
protest against the use by Virginia of tax monies on behalf of religious
education. It has been contended, in other words, that his principle of
total separation was not put into practice. (15)
In matters of education, however, Jefferson was a complete
secularist, never deviating in any significant degree. In 1778 he
submitted, in a Bill for the More General Diffusion of Knowledge, a
comprehensive plan for public education at the primary and secondary
levels.(16) Religious instruction was completely absent from the proposed
curriculum at a time when it was a prominent feature in schools everywhere
else. The omission was deliberate; Jefferson wrote in his Notes on the
State of Virginia: "Instead therefore of putting the Bible and Testament
into the hands of the children, at an age when their judgments are not
sufficiently matured for religious enquiries, their memories may here be
stored with the most useful facts from Grecian, Roman, European and
American history."(17) Religion was also conspicuous by its absence from
Jefferson's plan of 1817; his Bill for Establishing a System of Public
Education enumerated only secular subjects. In an effort to eliminate
possible religious influence in the public schools, Jefferson specified
that ministers should not serve as "visitors" or supervisors, and provided
that "no religious reading, instruction or exercise, shall be prescribed or
practised" in violation of the tenets of any sect or denomination.(18)
Clearly, Jefferson opposed the use of public funds for the teaching of
religion in the public schools.
Jefferson's first proposal on higher education came in 1779. His Bill
for the Amending of the Constitution of the College of William and Mary
stated that the college consisted of "one school of sacred theology, with
two professorships therein, to wit, one for teaching the Hebrew tongue, and
expounding the holy scriptures; and the other for explaining the
commonplaces of divinity, and controversies with heretics." There were six
other professorships divided among a school of philosophy, one of classical
languages, and another for teaching Indians reading, writing, and "the
catechism and the principles of the Christian religion." Jefferson proposed
to abolish both the school of theology with its professorships of religion
and the school for teaching Indians. In place of the school for Indians he
proposed that a missionary be selected by a newly constituted faculty who
would not teach religion but investigate Indian "laws, customs, religions,
traditions, and more particularly their languages." Jefferson's missionary
was to be an anthropologist charged with reporting his findings to the
faculty and preserving his reports in the college library. In place of the
school of theology and the professorships of religion, Jefferson proposed
simply a professorship "of moral philosophy" and another "of history, civil
and ecclesiastical."'(19)
Jefferson's proposed bill failed because of Episcopalian opposition.
However, in the same year, 1779, he and Madison as visitors of the college
instituted such changes as could be made by executive authority without
legislative approval. In 1821 he summarized the changes by writing: "When I
was a visitor, in 1779 I got the two professorships of Divinity ... put
down, and others of: law and police, of medicine, anatomy, and chemistry,
and of modern languages substituted."(20) A comparable statement appeared
in his Notes on the State of Virginia where he remarked that the school of
divinity was "excluded."(21)
Jefferson was never satisfied with the education offered by the
College of William and Mary. Failing to achieve adequate reform of the
college, he turned to the establishment of a new state university. He also
attempted in 1814 to transform Albemarle Academy, a small private school.
He wanted an enlarged institution, offering instruction from the primary
grades through college and post-graduate training, that would be supported
in part by public funds. At no point in the entire curriculum before the
professional level was there any provision for religious education.
However, one of the "professional schools" was to be devoted to "Theology
and Ecclesiastical History," to which would come the "ecclesiastic" as
would the "lawyer to the school of law."(22) Here is an inconsistency,
indicating Jefferson's support of the use of tax monies on behalf of
religious education, although only at the graduate level. It is not
irrelevant to stress, however, that Albemarle was privately established and
endowed, though it was to be aided by public funds. More to the point is
the fact that never again, after the failure of this proposal, did
Jefferson renew it.
In 1818, for instance, his academic plan for the newly authorized
state university included ten professorships and thirty-four subjects, none
of them relating to religion. This curriculum, which was adopted, was laid
out in a report, written by Jefferson as chairman of the commissioners for
the University of Virginia, which stated: "In conformity with the
principles of our Constitution, which places all sects of religion on an
equal footing... we have proposed no professor of divinity ... Proceeding
thus far without offence to the Constitution, we have thought it proper at
this point to leave every sect to provide, as they think fittest, the means
of further instruction in their own peculiar tenets." The report also
stated: "It is supposed probable, that a building ... may be called for in
time, in which may be rooms for religious worship ... for public
examinations, for a library."(23) The very conditional phrasing of this
sentence suggests that Jefferson was seeking to fend off an anticipated
barrage of criticism against the university as a "godless" institution. In
fact he was under constant pressure from church groups to make suitable
provision for theological training and religious worship at the university.
The "supposed probable" room which might in time be a place for worship was
a concession to those, who, as Jefferson reported in a letter to Dr. Thomas
Cooper, used the absence of a professorship of divinity to spread the idea
that the university was "not merely of no religion, but against all
religion."(24)
Opposition to the secular character of the university resulted in a
postponement of instruction, forcing additional concessions to religious
interests. In 1822 Jeffer- son, as rector of the university, and the Board
of Visitors, among them Madison, proposed in the most reluctant language to
accept a suggestion "by some pious individuals... to establish their
religious schools on the confines of the University, so as to give their
students ready and convenient access and attendance on the scientific
lectures of the University." This report noted also that the religious
schools would offer places where regular students of the university could
worship as each other." The report concluded that 'if the legislature
questioned "what here is suggested, the idea will be relinquished on any
surmise of disapprobation which they might think proper to express."(25)
The legislature did not, however, take the eager hint to scrap the plan
which involved no public expense.
Jefferson explained that in order to silence the calumny that the
university was atheistic, "In our annual report to the legislature, after
stating the constitutional reasons against a public establishment of any
religious instruction, we suggest the expediency of encouraging the
different religious sects to establish, each for itself, a professorship of
their own tenets, on the confines of the University.'(26) In 1824, shortly
before the first classes, Jefferson and the Board of Visitors adopted
formal regulations which provided that the "religious sects of this State"
might "establish within, or adjacent to, the precincts of the University,
schools for instruction in the religion of their own sect." Students of the
university were "free, and expected to attend religious worship" at the
"establishment" of their choice on condition that they did so in the
mornings before classes, which began at 7:30 A.M. The same regulations also
provided for the use of one of the university's rooms for worship as well
as for other purposes, although the students were enjoined by the
regulation of the previous paragraph to attend services in the theological
seminaries surrounding the university."(27)
No part of the regular school day was set aside for religious
worship. Possibly the proposal that a room belonging to the university be
used for worship was intended originally as a makeshift arrangement until
the various sects established their own schools of theology. None in fact
did so for several decades, and Jefferson did not permit the room belonging
to the university to be used for religious purposes. In 1825 he rejected a
proposal to hold Sunday services on university property. The Board of
Visitors, he wrote, had already turned down an application to permit a
sermon to be preached in one of the rooms on the ground that "the buildings
of the Univ. belong to the state, that they were erected for the purposes
of an Univ., and that the Visitors, to whose care they are commd [commanded
or committed] for those purposes, have no right to permit their application
to any other." His position was that the legislature had failed to sanction
a proposal to use university facilities for worship and that, consequently,
an alternative plan had been adopted "superseding the Ist idea of
permitting a room in the Rotunda to be used for religious worship."(28) The
alternative plan was the one permitting the different sects to establish
their own divinity schools, without public aid, independently of the
university. The university did not even appoint a chaplain while Jefferson
was its rector. "At a time when, in most colleges and universities of the
country, ministers were presidents and common members of boards of control,
daily chapel attendance was compulsory, courses in religion were required,
and professors of theology and doctors of divinity had a prominent place on
the faculties, the University of Virginia stood out sharply in contrast
with its loyalty to the principle of separation of church and state."(29)
Jefferson cared very deeply about religious liberty. Diligent study
and thought had given him a systematic theory, the most advanced of his
age, and he put it into practice. His position was clearly defined,
publicly stated, and vigorously defended. Although it exposed him to
abusive criticism he carried on his fight for separation of church and
state, and for the free exercise of religion, throughout his long public
career without significant contradictions. In sum his thought on religious
liberty was profoundly libertarian, and his actions suited his thought.
------------
l3. Edward S. Corwin, "The Supreme Court as National School Board,"
Law and Contemporary Problems, 14:14 (Winter 1949).
14. Jefferron to Levi Lincoln, Jan. 1, 1802, in Lipscomb. X, 305.
15. See, for example, O'Neill, pp. 76-77, 205-206.
16. Boyd, II, 526-535.
17. Notes on Virginia, ed. by Peden, p. 147.
18. Lipscomb, XVII, 425.
19. Boyd, II, 535-542.
20. Jefferson to Joseph C. Cabell, Feb. 22, 1811, in Nathaniel F.
Cabell, ed., Early History of the University of Virginia (Richmond, 1856),
p. 207.
21. Notes on Virginia, ed. by Peden, p. 151.
22. Jefferson to Peter Carr, Sept. 7, 1814, in Lipscomb, XIX,
211-221. See also Roy J. Honeywell, The Educational Work of Thomas
Jefferson (Cambridge, Mass., 1931), pp. '5-'6. 39-42; the letter to Carr is
reprinted in Appendix E.
23. "Report of the Commissioners appointed to fix the site of the
University of Virginia," in Honeywell, Educational Work of Jefferson,
Appendix J, pp. 256, 249.
24. Jefferson to Thomas Cooper, Nov. 2, 1822. in Lipscomb, XV, 405.
25. Minutes of the Board of Visitors of the University of Virginia,
Oct. 7, 1822, in ibid., XIX. 414-416.
26. Jefferson to Cooper, Nov. 2, 1822, in ibid., XV, 405
27. Minutes of the Board of Visitors of the University of Virginia,
Oct. 4, 1824, in ibid., XIX, 449.
28. Jefferson to A. S. Brockenbrough, April 21. 1825, quoted in R.
Freeman Butts, The American Tradition in Religion and Education (Boston.
1950), p. 129, citing Jefferson Papers, Library of Congress, vol. 229, fol.
40962.
29. Ibid., 130.
***************************************************************************************
ITEM # 4
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.religion.christian/msg/9b4fdcbcf4a...
Your shorter link is: http://makeashorterlink.com/?V5603640C

Oct 9, 11:28 am
Newsgroups: alt.religion.christian, alt.politics.democrats.d,
alt.politics.usa.constitution, alt.politics.liberalism,
alt.society.liberalism, alt.education, alt.atheism
From:

- Find messages by this author
Date: Sun, 09 Oct 2005 11:28:25 -0400
Local: Sun, Oct 9 2005 11:28 am
Subject: Re: Keep religious theory out of class
"fred" <clar...@gmail.com> wrote:

:|
:|

wrote:
:|> "fred" <clar...@gmail.com> wrote:
:|>
:|> >:|

wrote:
:|> >:|> http://ydr.com/story/op-ed/87727/
:|> >:|>
:|> >:|> Keep religious theory out of class
:|> >:|> THE REV. BARRY W. LYNN
:|> >:|> Sunday, October 2, 2005
:|> >:|>
:|> >:|>
:|> >:|> "Intelligent design" should not be taught in public school science classes
:|> >:|> because it violates the Constitution, undercuts America's commitment to
:|> >:|> diversity and jeopardizes our children's future.
:|> >:|
:|> >:|Beware of generalizations like "because it violates the Constitution".
:|> >:|This bottom line is that people who attack our freedom of religious
:|> >:|expression often can't point to anything specific in the Constitution
:|> >:|to prove that the Constitution is being violated. They have to resort
:|> >:|to strawman generalizations to pull the wool over everybody's eyes.
:|> >:|
:|> >:|The bottom line is that an examination of the 1st, 10th and 14th
:|> >:|Amendments will show you that the 14th Amendment prohibits the states
:|> >:|from using their power to legislate religion to abridge our personal
:|> >:|federal rights as US citizens. So the states do have the
:|> >:|constitutional power to authorize public schools to lead classroom
:|> >:|discussions on issues like the pros and cons of evolution, creationism
:|> >:|and irreducible complexity, for example. However, I disagree with
:|> >:|Jefferson that religion classes should be mandatory:
:|>
:|> LOL, Jefferson believed the opposite. You just got exposed again for your
:|> dishonesty
:|
:|If you are talking about the line below which starts with, "No
:|religious reading," then please read in carefully. Jefferson is not
:|saying that religion cannot be taught in schools.

No troll I am talking about Jefferson's over all views about education and
religion
You know. all fhe the following you didn't bother to look over.
BTW, since you singled this one out let me do it first:
This was a reply to Barclay but will work here since you and him are clones
of each other basically:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ahem, he meant exactly what he said.
"No religious reading, instruction or exercise, shall be prescribed or
practiced [in the elementary schools] inconsistent with the tenets of
any religious sect or denomination." --Thomas Jefferson: Elementary
School Act, 1817. ME 17:425
QUERY XIV
The Administration of Justice and the Description of the
Laws?
To establish religious freedom on the broadest bottom.
[pp 236-237]
[EMPHASIS ADDED]
Another object of the revisal is to diffuse knowledge more
generally through the mass of the people. . . The first stage of this
education being the schools of the hundreds, wherein the great mass of the
people will receive their instruction, the principal foundations of future
order will be laid here. INSTEAD, THEREFORE, OF PUTTING THE
BIBLE AND TESTAMENT INTO THE HANDS OF THE CHILDREN AT
AN AGE WHEN THEIR JUDGMENTS ARE NOT SUFFICIENTLY
MATURED FOR RELIGIOUS INQUIRIES, THEIR MEMORIES MAY
HERE BE STORED WITH THE MOST USEFUL FACTS FROM
GRECIAN, ROMAN, EUROPEAN AND AMERICAN HISTORY. . .
SOURCE OF INFORMATION: Thomas Jefferson's Notes on Virginia. The Life and
Selected Writings of Thomas Jefferson, edited by Adrienne Koch and William
Peden. Random House, New York, (1993) pp 243-246)
[babclay said ]

So much for your claims that you follow proper historical methodology. It
is NOT proper historical methodology to completely ignore the primary
source material that is most immediately applicable to a particular issue
and focus entirely on less directly >applicable material.

Hehehehehehe Nice try but no cigar.
The two quotes above are PRIMARY SOURCE
This quote
"No religious reading, instruction or exercise, shall be prescribed or
practiced [in the elementary schools] inconsistent with the tenets of
any religious sect or denomination." --Thomas Jefferson: Elementary
School Act, 1817. ME 17:425
which is also pron]mary source requires a certain understanding of the
period (known today as the history of the period)
"No religious reading, instruction or exercise, shall be prescribed or
practiced inconsistent with the tenets of any religious sect or
denomination. "
There were approx 20 religions, sects, denomination etc at that time.
perhaps that many, perhaps not that many in Virginia. However, it might be
beyond your comprehension today, but those religions, sects, denominations
did not get along. People were put in jail deprived of their civil rights,
banned etc for being a member of the "wrong" religion, sect or
denomination.
THERE COULD HAVE BEEN NO RELIGIOUS READING, INSTRUCTION
OR EXERCISE THAT COULD HAVE BEEN PRESCRIBED OR PRACTICED
THAT WOULD NOT HAVE BEEN INCONSISTENT WITH SOME RELIGION, SECT OR
DENOMINATION THAT EXISTED AT THAT TIME. Thus under his Elementary
School Act, 1817. there could have been "No religious reading, instruction
or exercise, shall be prescribed or practiced. . . " in any elementary
school.
"No religious reading, instruction or exercise, shall be prescribed or
practiced [in the elementary schools] inconsistent with the tenets of
any religious sect or denomination." --Thomas Jefferson: Elementary
School Act, 1817. ME 17:425
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
QUERY XIV
The Administration of Justice and the Description of the
Laws?
To establish religious freedom on the broadest bottom.
[pp 236-237]
[EMPHASIS ADDED]
Another object of the revisal is to diffuse knowledge more
generally through the mass of the people. . . The first stage of this
education being the schools of the hundreds, wherein the great mass of the
people will receive their instruction, the principal foundations of future
order will be laid here. INSTEAD, THEREFORE, OF PUTTING THE
BIBLE AND TESTAMENT INTO THE HANDS OF THE CHILDREN AT
AN AGE WHEN THEIR JUDGMENTS ARE NOT SUFFICIENTLY
MATURED FOR RELIGIOUS INQUIRIES, THEIR MEMORIES MAY
HERE BE STORED WITH THE MOST USEFUL FACTS FROM
GRECIAN, ROMAN, EUROPEAN AND AMERICAN HISTORY. . .
SOURCE OF INFORMATION: Thomas Jefferson's Notes on Virginia. The Life and
Selected Writings of Thomas Jefferson, edited by Adrienne Koch and William
Peden. Random House, New York, (1993) pp 243-246)
*****************************************************************
[barclay said]

:|Keep in mind that in between Jefferson's 1778 proposal and his 1817
:|proposal, almost forty years had passed. He was in his 30's when he wrote
:|the former proposal, and in his 70's at the time of the second. People's
:|thinking can change during that much time, both in their principles and,
:|probably more importantly in Jefferson's case here, in their willingness to
:|compromise in order to get at least some of what they want. Historians and
:|would-be historians have to allow for that possibility.

Ahem, 1781-82
QUERY XIV
The Administration of Justice and the Description of the
Laws?
To establish religious freedom on the broadest bottom.
[pp 236-237]
[EMPHASIS ADDED]
Another object of the revisal is to diffuse knowledge more
generally through the mass of the people. . . The first stage of this
education being the schools of the hundreds, wherein the great mass of the
people will receive their instruction, the principal foundations of future
order will be laid here. INSTEAD, THEREFORE, OF PUTTING THE
BIBLE AND TESTAMENT INTO THE HANDS OF THE CHILDREN AT
AN AGE WHEN THEIR JUDGMENTS ARE NOT SUFFICIENTLY
MATURED FOR RELIGIOUS INQUIRIES, THEIR MEMORIES MAY
HERE BE STORED WITH THE MOST USEFUL FACTS FROM
GRECIAN, ROMAN, EUROPEAN AND AMERICAN HISTORY. . .
SOURCE OF INFORMATION
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
1817
"No religious reading, instruction or exercise, shall be prescribed or
practiced [in the elementary schools] inconsistent with the tenets of
any religious sect or denomination." --Thomas Jefferson: Elementary
School Act, 1817.
*************************************************
Both are saying the same thing.
**********************************************************************
now all the rest you didn't feel like addressing:
Religion Intermeddling in Government
http://etext.virginia.edu/jefferson/quotations/jeff1650.htm
"Whenever... preachers, instead of a lesson in religion, put [their
congregation] off with a discourse on the Copernican system, on chemical
affinities, on the construction of government, or the characters or
conduct of those administering it, it is a breach of contract, depriving
their audience of the kind of service for which they are salaried, and
giving them, instead of it, what they did not want, or, if wanted, would
rather seek from better sources in that particular art of science."
--Thomas Jefferson to P. H. Wendover, 1815. ME 14:281
"Ministers of the Gospel are excluded [from serving as Visitors of the
county Elementary Schools] to avoid jealousy from the other sects, were
the public education committed to the ministers of a particular one; and
with more reason than in the case of their exclusion from the legislative
and executive functions." --Thomas Jefferson: Note to Elementary School
Act, 1817. ME 17:419
"No religious reading, instruction or exercise, shall be prescribed or
practiced [in the elementary schools] inconsistent with the tenets of any
religious sect or denomination." --Thomas Jefferson: Elementary School
Act, 1817. ME 17:425
******************************************************************************
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Jefferson
Jefferson founded his unique vision of education at the University of
Virginia, then one of the first universities in the world to completely
separate higher learning from religious doctrine.
*********************************************************
EDUCATION - HISTORY-U.S.
Thomas Jefferson on Politics & Government
40. Publicly Supported Education
Jefferson developed an elaborate plan for making education
available to every citizen, and for providing a complete education through
university for talented youths who were unable to afford it. He considered
his most important accomplishment, after Author of the Declaration of
Independence and the Statute for Religious Freedom, to have been the
father of the University of Virginia.
http://etext.virginia.edu/jefferson/quotations/jeff1370.htm
*******************************************************
Thomas Jefferson and Education, By Son H. Mai
http://clioseye.sfasu.edu/jefferson/education.htm
******************************************************
Thomas Jefferson and the Education of a Citizen. Edited By James Gilreath.
Library of Congress, (1999)
********************************************************

:|> >:|"Thus we have teachers of languages, teachers of mathematics, of
:|> >:|natural philosophy, of chemistry, of medicine, of law, of history, of
:|> >:|government, etc. Religion, too, is a separate department, and happens
:|> >:|to be the only one deemed requisite for all men, however high or low."
:|> >:|--Thomas Jefferson to P. H. Wendover, 1815.
:|>

BTW, the above isn't properly cited.
University of Virginia was charted in 1819, thus if you are trying to pass
off the above letter as how he had set up UVA, you are incorrect and
dishonest.
The entire letter can be read below
http://0-www.search.eb.com.library.uor.edu/eb/article-9116916?tocId=9...
Religion In The Public Schools: A Joint Statement Of Current Law
http://www.ed.gov/Speeches/04-1995/prayer.html
*********************************************************************
You will find some, just a part of the source material used for my posts,
replies and articles in the following. In most cases the information is
provided in two formats, MS WORD or COREL WORDPERFECT.
Thus it is provided in a form that about 95% of the people can use
The following is not ever close to being a complete list. It hasn't been
updated in several years.
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HRSepCnS/files/
PRIMARY SOURCE HISTORICAL MATERIAL
book project index.doc MsWord Document 451 KB
Mar 20, 2005
book project index.wpd My book project (ongoing) 233 KB
Feb 17, 2005
******************************************************************
BOOKS, LEGAL AND HISTORICAL AND PRIMARY SOURCE MATERIAL
book33-4.doc MS Word document 586 KB
Mar 20, 2005
book33-4.wpd books historical papers C&S 153 KB
Feb 12, 2005
*******************************************************************
COURT OPINIONS LATE 1700s TO PRESENT
State and Federal
case index.doc MsWord Document 256 KB
Mar 20, 2005
case index.wpd church state court cases 1700s to present 52 KB
Feb 17, 2005
*****************************************************************
JOURNAL ARTICLES
oneart5.doc
MS Word Document 272 KB
Mar 20, 2005
oneart5.wpd
Some of C&S journal articles I have here 87 KB
Feb 12, 2005
**************************************************************
Posting and reading from alt.politics.usa.constitution OR alt.education
You are invited to check out the following:
The Rise of the Theocratic States of America
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/theocracy.htm
American Theocrats - Past and Present
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/theocrats.htm
The Constitutional Principle: Separation of Church and State
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/index.html
[and to join the discussion group for the above site and/or Separation of
Church and State in general, listed below]
HRSepCnS · Hampton Roads [Virginia] SepChurch&State
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HRSepCnS/
[Its not just Hampton Roads folks who are members, there are members from
all over the U.S. and a couple from overseas as well]
***************************************************************
.. . . You can't understand a phrase such as "Congress shall make no law
respecting an establishment of religion" by syllogistic reasoning. Words
take their meaning from social as well as textual contexts, which is why "a
page of history is worth a volume of logic." New York Trust Co. v. Eisner,
256 U.S. 345, 349, 41 S.Ct. 506, 507, 65 L.Ed. 963 (1921) (Holmes, J.).
Sherman v. Community Consol. Dist. 21, 980 F.2d 437, 445 (7th Cir. 1992)
.. . .
****************************************************************
THE CONSTITUTIONAL PRINCIPLE:
SEPARATION OF CHURCH AND STATE
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/index.html
****************************************************************
.

User: ""
Title: Re: Separation of church and state university	21 Nov 2005 01:25:33 PM

"The Fool" <kands00@hotmail.com> wrote:

Nice try but that doesn't get it done, try again
"The Fool" <kands00@hotmail.com> wrote:

The power?
What power? Candles? Daylight?
Would you mind citing and or positing his exact words or at the very least
positing secondary source commentary from valid respected historians who
cite and quote Jefferson?
You see, your paraphrasing, spin, misrepresentations, etc do not count.
And it sure as hell doesn't trump the evidence that I provided that you so
thoughtfully deleted and hoped no one noticed
**************************************************************
Posting and reading from alt.politics.usa.constitution OR alt.education
You are invited to check out the following:
The Rise of the Theocratic States of America
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/theocracy.htm
American Theocrats - Past and Present
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/theocrats.htm
The Constitutional Principle: Separation of Church and State
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/index.html
[and to join the discussion group for the above site and/or Separation of
Church and State in general, listed below]
HRSepCnS · Hampton Roads [Virginia] SepChurch&State
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HRSepCnS/
[Its not just Hampton Roads folks who are members, there are members from
all over the U.S. and a couple from overseas as well]
***************************************************************
.. . . You can't understand a phrase such as "Congress shall make no law
respecting an establishment of religion" by syllogistic reasoning. Words
take their meaning from social as well as textual contexts, which is why "a
page of history is worth a volume of logic." New York Trust Co. v. Eisner,
256 U.S. 345, 349, 41 S.Ct. 506, 507, 65 L.Ed. 963 (1921) (Holmes, J.).
Sherman v. Community Consol. Dist. 21, 980 F.2d 437, 445 (7th Cir. 1992)
.. . .
****************************************************************
THE CONSTITUTIONAL PRINCIPLE:
SEPARATION OF CHURCH AND STATE
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/index.html
****************************************************************
.

User: "Strabo"
Title: Re: Separation of church and state university	08 Nov 2005 03:20:02 PM

In Separation of church and state university on Sun, 06 Nov 2005
09:42:29 -0500, by buckeye-ELO@nospam.net, we read:

1. If a resident assistant is a student of a dorm appointed
as a voluntary agent of the school to supervise the dorm,
that RA is obviously not a state employee.
2. Universities don't have rights.
Conclusion: The university is barking up the wrong tree.
It cannot lawfully censor communication among students.
The powers-that-be at the University of Wisconsin need
to move to China where they will be appreciated.

*****************************************************************
Posting and reading from alt.politics.usa.constitution OR alt.education

You are invited to check out the following:

The Rise of the Theocratic States of America
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/theocracy.htm

American Theocrats - Past and Present
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/theocrats.htm

The Constitutional Principle: Separation of Church and State
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/index.html

[and to join the discussion group for the above site and/or Separation of
Church and State in general, listed below]

HRSepCnS · Hampton Roads [Virginia] SepChurch&State
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HRSepCnS/

[Its not just Hampton Roads folks who are members, there are members from
all over the U.S. and a couple from overseas as well]

***************************************************************
. . . You can't understand a phrase such as "Congress shall make no law
respecting an establishment of religion" by syllogistic reasoning. Words
take their meaning from social as well as textual contexts, which is why "a
page of history is worth a volume of logic." New York Trust Co. v. Eisner,
256 U.S. 345, 349, 41 S.Ct. 506, 507, 65 L.Ed. 963 (1921) (Holmes, J.).
Sherman v. Community Consol. Dist. 21, 980 F.2d 437, 445 (7th Cir. 1992)
. . .
****************************************************************
THE CONSTITUTIONAL PRINCIPLE:
SEPARATION OF CHURCH AND STATE

http://members.tripod.com/~candst/index.html
****************************************************************

----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==----
http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups
----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =----
.

User: "fred"
Title: Re: Separation of church and state university; university fails 10th Amendment test	08 Nov 2005 07:51:33 PM

alt.education removed
Strabo wrote:

In Separation of church and state university on Sun, 06 Nov 2005
09:42:29 -0500, by buckeye-ELO@nospam.net, we read:

1. If a resident assistant is a student of a dorm appointed
as a voluntary agent of the school to supervise the dorm,
that RA is obviously not a state employee.

I basically agree.
I also don't believe that the university is paying the RA 24/7. The RA
can do whatever he wants to in his unpaid time, in my opinion.

2. Universities don't have rights.

The University is reflecting the unconstitutional separationist
mentality that believes that the 14th Amendment somehow repealed the
10th Amendment protected sovereign rights of the States to deal with
religious matters. And note that Jefferson, Mr. "wall of separation"
himself, not only regularly attended religious worship services in the
hall of the House of Representatives at the Nation's Capital, but he
also authorized the US Marine Band to provide music for worship
services in other government buildings.

Conclusion: The university is barking up the wrong tree.
It cannot lawfully censor communication among students.
The powers-that-be at the University of Wisconsin need
to move to China where they will be appreciated.

<snipped for brevity>
.

User: ""
Title: Re: Separation of church and state university; university fails 10th Amendment test	08 Nov 2005 10:11:36 PM

On 8 Nov 2005 17:51:33 -0800, "fred" <clarma1@gmail.com> wrote:

There is no such thing, Freddie
GOVERNMENT---whether it's state or local or federal, is barred by a
"wall" from promote religion
It's the ***** law, Freddie
All the babbling and spamming the group with your nonsense can't
change it
All it does is demean what little credibility you ever had.
.

User: "fred"
Title: Re: Separation of church and state university; university fails 10th Amendment test	08 Nov 2005 10:28:37 PM

wrote:

On 8 Nov 2005 17:51:33 -0800, "fred" <clarma1@gmail.com> wrote:

There is no such thing, Freddie

There is no such thing because Knickkkers says so. Isn't that right
Knickkkers?

GOVERNMENT---whether it's state or local or federal, is barred by a
"wall" from promote religion

The activist Everson Justices lied to us about that absolute "wall of
separation". The activist, anti-religious expression Court is telling
us that the 14th Amentment took away powers from the States (Cantwell),
powers that the Court is also telling us that the States never had in
the first place (Everson; Jefferson "wall of separation").

It's the ***** law, Freddie

Yes Knickkkers, tell us all about the law.

All the babbling and spamming the group with your nonsense can't
change it

Speaking of babbling Knickkkers...

All it does is demean what little credibility you ever had.

Yes Knickkkers, its all about credibility.
.

User: ""
Title: Re: Separation of church and state university; university fails 10th Amendment test	09 Nov 2005 08:24:55 AM

On 8 Nov 2005 20:28:37 -0800, "fred" <clarma1@gmail.com> wrote:

Knickkkers@Hang-up.com wrote:

On 8 Nov 2005 17:51:33 -0800, "fred" <clarma1@gmail.com> wrote:

There is no such thing, Freddie

There is no such thing because Knickkkers says so. Isn't that right
Knickkkers?

You're not getting it Freddie
THere's no such thing because YOU"RE saying it.

GOVERNMENT---whether it's state or local or federal, is barred by a
"wall" from promote religion

The activist Everson Justices lied to us about that absolute "wall of
separation".

That's YOUR silly opinion
.

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