| Topic: |
Religions > Atheism |
| User: |
"Snubis" |
| Date: |
27 Feb 2004 11:05:37 AM |
| Object: |
Separation of Church and State? What a Snow Job |
Earlier this week the United States Supreme Court agreed to review the
Ninth Circuit's decision that struck down the recital of the Pledge of
Allegiance in California’s public schools. At issue were the words “under
God” in the Pledge, the inclusion of which the three-judge panel felt
amounted to California establishing religion. Here's hoping the Supremes
will take this case not only as another opportunity to reverse the Ninth
Circuit – a frequent happening, that -- but also to inject some common
sense and accurate history into the church/state discussion. Because from
where I'm sitting, there's little of either.
The case has been the subject of an intense national debate. A district
court in Sacramento initially dismissed the lawsuit brought by an atheist,
Michael A. Newdow, who did not want his daughter exposed daily in her
elementary school classroom to "a ritual proclaiming that there is a God."
A three-member panel of the Ninth Circuit overturned that decision, first
ruling in June that the words "under God” made the pledge itself
unconstitutional. Earlier this year, the court tempered its ruling by
confining it to the public school context, invalidating school policies
that require teachers to lead willing students in the Pledge.
The Ninth Circuit’s aversion to “under God” didn’t come from whole cloth.
Left-leaning jurists have been building a wall between church and state
since the days of the Warren Court. Inspired by the spirits of Thomas
Jefferson and James Madison, the Supreme Court began its modern day crusade
against religion in 1962 when it struck down a state-composed non-
denominational classroom prayer (Engel v. Vitale). It later extended that
ruling to ban daily classroom readings of The Bible (Abington School Dist.
V. Schempp (1963)) and to strike down an Alabama statute that authorized a
one-minute silent period at the start of each day to be used for meditation
or prayer (Wallace v. Jaffree (1985)). These practices were all voluntary,
and were all invalidated even though the First Amendment says the
government may not prohibit “the free exercise” of religion. The basis: the
Jeffersonian proposition that, although it didn’t say so, the First
Amendment was intended to erect a wall between church and state.
What a bill of goods. As M. Stanton Evans detailed in his excellent 1994
book “The Theme Is Freedom: Religion, Politics, and the American
Tradition,” before, during, and after they ratified the Constitution, the
state legislatures and Congress acted like a wall between church and state
was the last thing on their collective mind. Official state churches were
the rage in colonial times, with no fewer than nine of the colonies having
state religions as late as 1775. They gradually fell out of favor over the
next several years, but in 1789, the year of the Constitutional Convention,
the three New England states still had official religions, and most of the
other states still retained some official sanctions for religious belief.
South Carolina’s constitution, for example, deemed “the Christian
Protestant religion” to be “the established religion of the state” and said
that no religious society could be deemed a church unless it agreed, inter
alia, that “the Christian religion is the true religion.” The Maryland
Constitution decreed “a general and equal tax for the support of the
Christian religion.” New Jersey expressed the idea by saying “no Protestant
inhabitant of this colony shall be denied the enjoyment of any civil
right.” In 1780, Massachusetts authorized a special levy to support “public
Protestant teachers of piety, religion and morality.” New Hampshire later
adopted that formula – verbatim.
State involvement with religion didn’t vanish with ratification. Until
1826, you had to be a Christian to hold public office in Maryland. North
Carolina required elected officials to be Protestant until 1835, when it
said any type of Christian would do. Massachusetts didn’t abolish its
established church until 1833. New Jersey didn’t allow Roman Catholics to
hold office until 1844. New Hampshire didn’t abandon its requirement that
one had to be a Protestant to serve in the legislature until 1877.
Congress didn’t ditch religion, either. After it ratified the Bill of
Rights, Congress retained its Chaplain (a position created in 1774) and
continued to open its proceedings with a prayer. And – here’s a biggie --
the very day after it passed the Bill of Rights in 1789, the House of
Representatives passed a resolution calling for a day of national prayer
and thanksgiving. The resolution thanked the “Almighty God” for allowing
the United States the opportunity to establish a constitutional government.
An also-grateful-to-God President George Washington issued a proclamation
designating that day, now known as Thanksgiving. See the problem? If the
First Amendment really meant to establish a separation of church and state,
then Congress, the states and George Washington violated it – and kept on
violating it -- right after its inception.
Logically, that’s nonsense. Truth is, the men who passed the Bill of Rights
intended for the Establishment Clause to speak not to what the states could
say about religion vis-à-vis the people, but what Congress could do vis-à-
vis the states. We know that because, after much deliberation, that’s how
they wrote it: “Congress shall make no law respecting the establishment of
religion.” (Italics mine.) And we know it because, in introducing a set of
amendments to the Constitution in June 1789, including one speaking to the
establishment of religion, Madison said as much. To wit: when Roger Sherman
suggested to Madison that the Establishment Clause was unnecessary because
of the Tenth Amendment, which reserved all powers not expressly granted to
the federal government to the states, Madison explained that
he apprehended the meaning of the words to be, that Congress shall not
establish a religion and enforce the legal observation of it by law, nor
compel men to worship God in any manner contrary to their conscience.
Whether the words are necessary or not, he did not mean to say, but they
had been required by some of the state conventions, who seemed to entertain
an opinion that (under the “necessary and proper” clause) . . . Congress .
.. . might infringe the rights of conscience and establish a national
religion; to prevent these effects he presumed the amendment was intended,
and he thought it as well expressed as the nature of language would admit.
(Italics in Stanton’s version.) Translation: Madison introduced the
language because others in the state conventions wanted it; he did so on
their behalf; and its intent was merely to prohibit Congress from
interfering with the states’ prerogatives on the subject of religion by
setting up a national one. Madison should have listened to Sherman because,
suffice it to say, never in the history of man has such a clarifier wrought
such havoc.
But straightforward as it was, the Establishment Clause hasn’t aged well.
Since the Fourteenth Amendment was ratified after the Civil War to
guarantee equal protection and due process to blacks, the Supreme Court has
extended it to make almost all of the Bill of Rights’ guarantees applicable
to the states. Of course nowhere in the Fourteenth- or any of the other
Civil War amendments does it say “the Bill of Rights shall now be
applicable to the states,” but in most matters, particularly in areas of
individual rights, binding state governments to the same set of rules as
the federal government made good sense. But in 1947, the Court made the
Establishment Clause binding on the states. The irony: the provision
originally offered on behalf of the states to protect their prerogatives on
matters of religion now prohibited them.
Nicholas G. Jenkins
Founder and Chief Executive Officer
The Fence
www.thefence.com
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| User: "ImpBush" |
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| Title: Re: Separation of Church and State? What a Snow Job |
27 Feb 2004 02:31:59 PM |
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"Snubis" <snubis@wp.pl> wrote in message
news:2592970a1f470de28a53a63a826c1acc@news.teranews.com...
Earlier this week the United States Supreme Court agreed to review the
Ninth Circuit's decision that struck down the recital of the Pledge of
Allegiance in California's public schools. At issue were the words "under
God" in the Pledge, the inclusion of which the three-judge panel felt
amounted to California establishing religion. Here's hoping the Supremes
will take this case not only as another opportunity to reverse the Ninth
Circuit - a frequent happening, that -- but also to inject some common
sense and accurate history into the church/state discussion. Because from
where I'm sitting, there's little of either.
Maybe we should add these statements from your bible to the constitution:
Those who break the Sabbath are to be executed. 31:14
God favors Israelites "above all people." 19:5
The first commandment ("Thou shalt have no other gods before me.") condemns
those who worship any other than the biblical god. 20:3
"He who sacrificeth unto any god, save unto the Lord only, he shall be
utterly destroyed." If this commandment is obeyed, then the four billion
people who do not believe in the biblical god must be killed. 22:20
Stay away from those who worship a different god. 23:32
Anyone who blasphemes or curses shall be stoned to death by the entire
community. 24:16
You christians are sick people.
.
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| User: "Snubis" |
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| Title: Re: Separation of Church and State? What a Snow Job |
27 Feb 2004 02:55:22 PM |
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On Fri 27 Feb 2004 03:31:59p, "ImpBush" <nospam@nospam.com> wrote in
news:5PN%b.6146$m4.4683@okepread03:
"Snubis" <snubis@wp.pl> wrote in message
news:2592970a1f470de28a53a63a826c1acc@news.teranews.com...
Earlier this week the United States Supreme Court agreed to review the
Ninth Circuit's decision that struck down the recital of the Pledge of
Allegiance in California's public schools. At issue were the words
"under God" in the Pledge, the inclusion of which the three-judge panel
felt amounted to California establishing religion. Here's hoping the
Supremes will take this case not only as another opportunity to reverse
the Ninth Circuit - a frequent happening, that -- but also to inject
some common sense and accurate history into the church/state
discussion. Because from where I'm sitting, there's little of either.
Maybe we should add these statements from your bible to the
constitution:
Those who break the Sabbath are to be executed. 31:14
God favors Israelites "above all people." 19:5
The first commandment ("Thou shalt have no other gods before me.")
condemns those who worship any other than the biblical god. 20:3
"He who sacrificeth unto any god, save unto the Lord only, he shall be
utterly destroyed." If this commandment is obeyed, then the four billion
people who do not believe in the biblical god must be killed. 22:20
Stay away from those who worship a different god. 23:32
Anyone who blasphemes or curses shall be stoned to death by the entire
community. 24:16
You christians are sick people.
At least we don't sacrifice our children in the name on convenience.
--
€
.
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| User: "ImpBush" |
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| Title: Re: Separation of Church and State? What a Snow Job |
27 Feb 2004 03:17:29 PM |
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"Snubis" <snubis@wp.pl> wrote in message
news:4e891cd9731406910459ff0323576ed6@news.teranews.com...
On Fri 27 Feb 2004 03:31:59p, "ImpBush" <nospam@nospam.com> wrote in
news:5PN%b.6146$m4.4683@okepread03:
"Snubis" <snubis@wp.pl> wrote in message
news:2592970a1f470de28a53a63a826c1acc@news.teranews.com...
Earlier this week the United States Supreme Court agreed to review the
Ninth Circuit's decision that struck down the recital of the Pledge of
Allegiance in California's public schools. At issue were the words
"under God" in the Pledge, the inclusion of which the three-judge panel
felt amounted to California establishing religion. Here's hoping the
Supremes will take this case not only as another opportunity to reverse
the Ninth Circuit - a frequent happening, that -- but also to inject
some common sense and accurate history into the church/state
discussion. Because from where I'm sitting, there's little of either.
Maybe we should add these statements from your bible to the
constitution:
Those who break the Sabbath are to be executed. 31:14
God favors Israelites "above all people." 19:5
The first commandment ("Thou shalt have no other gods before me.")
condemns those who worship any other than the biblical god. 20:3
"He who sacrificeth unto any god, save unto the Lord only, he shall be
utterly destroyed." If this commandment is obeyed, then the four billion
people who do not believe in the biblical god must be killed. 22:20
Stay away from those who worship a different god. 23:32
Anyone who blasphemes or curses shall be stoned to death by the entire
community. 24:16
You christians are sick people.
At least we don't sacrifice our children in the name on convenience.
Get back to me when you have sobered up.
.
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| User: "Ray Fischer" |
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| Title: Re: Separation of Church and State? What a Snow Job |
27 Feb 2004 11:46:21 PM |
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Snubis <snubis@wp.pl> wrote:
On Fri 27 Feb 2004 03:31:59p, "ImpBush" <nospam@nospam.com> wrote in
news:5PN%b.6146$m4.4683@okepread03:
"Snubis" <snubis@wp.pl> wrote in message
news:2592970a1f470de28a53a63a826c1acc@news.teranews.com...
Earlier this week the United States Supreme Court agreed to review the
Ninth Circuit's decision that struck down the recital of the Pledge of
Allegiance in California's public schools. At issue were the words
"under God" in the Pledge, the inclusion of which the three-judge panel
felt amounted to California establishing religion. Here's hoping the
Supremes will take this case not only as another opportunity to reverse
the Ninth Circuit - a frequent happening, that -- but also to inject
some common sense and accurate history into the church/state
discussion. Because from where I'm sitting, there's little of either.
Maybe we should add these statements from your bible to the
constitution:
Those who break the Sabbath are to be executed. 31:14
God favors Israelites "above all people." 19:5
The first commandment ("Thou shalt have no other gods before me.")
condemns those who worship any other than the biblical god. 20:3
"He who sacrificeth unto any god, save unto the Lord only, he shall be
utterly destroyed." If this commandment is obeyed, then the four billion
people who do not believe in the biblical god must be killed. 22:20
Stay away from those who worship a different god. 23:32
Anyone who blasphemes or curses shall be stoned to death by the entire
community. 24:16
You christians are sick people.
At least we don't sacrifice our children in the name on convenience.
You murder other people's children in the name of convenience.
--
Ray Fischer
rfischer@sonic.net
.
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| User: "Snubis" |
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| Title: Re: Separation of Church and State? What a Snow Job |
27 Feb 2004 11:45:15 PM |
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On Sat 28 Feb 2004 12:46:21a, (Ray Fischer) wrote
in news:c1p9vc$ccv$1@bolt.sonic.net:
Snubis <snubis@wp.pl> wrote:
On Fri 27 Feb 2004 03:31:59p, "ImpBush" <nospam@nospam.com> wrote in
news:5PN%b.6146$m4.4683@okepread03:
"Snubis" <snubis@wp.pl> wrote in message
news:2592970a1f470de28a53a63a826c1acc@news.teranews.com...
Earlier this week the United States Supreme Court agreed to review
the Ninth Circuit's decision that struck down the recital of the
Pledge of Allegiance in California's public schools. At issue were
the words "under God" in the Pledge, the inclusion of which the
three-judge panel felt amounted to California establishing religion.
Here's hoping the Supremes will take this case not only as another
opportunity to reverse the Ninth Circuit - a frequent happening, that
-- but also to inject some common sense and accurate history into the
church/state discussion. Because from where I'm sitting, there's
little of either.
Maybe we should add these statements from your bible to the
constitution:
Those who break the Sabbath are to be executed. 31:14
God favors Israelites "above all people." 19:5
The first commandment ("Thou shalt have no other gods before me.")
condemns those who worship any other than the biblical god. 20:3
"He who sacrificeth unto any god, save unto the Lord only, he shall be
utterly destroyed." If this commandment is obeyed, then the four
billion people who do not believe in the biblical god must be killed.
22:20
Stay away from those who worship a different god. 23:32
Anyone who blasphemes or curses shall be stoned to death by the entire
community. 24:16
You christians are sick people.
At least we don't sacrifice our children in the name on convenience.
You murder other people's children in the name of convenience.
Hyperbole is not your strong suit.
--
€
.
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| User: "Ted Kaczynski" |
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| Title: Re: Separation of Church and State? What a Snow Job |
27 Feb 2004 01:06:38 PM |
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"Snubis" <snubis@wp.pl> wrote...
Earlier this week the United States Supreme Court agreed to review the =
Ninth Circuit's decision that struck down the recital of the Pledge of =
Allegiance in California=92s public schools. At issue were the words =
=93under=20
God=94 in the Pledge, the inclusion of which the three-judge panel =
felt=20
amounted to California establishing religion. Here's hoping the =
Supremes=20
will take this case not only as another opportunity to reverse the =
Ninth=20
Circuit =96 a frequent happening, that -- but also to inject some =
common=20
sense and accurate history into the church/state discussion. Because =
from=20
where I'm sitting, there's little of either.=20
I hope the Supreme Court strikes the Pledge down as unconstitutional.
Although I recited it as a child, by high school I realized it was
a loyalty oath and began refusing to participate on the principle
that people in free countries shouldn't be taking loyalty oaths. The
"under gawd" part hadn't even occurred to me, but I now realize that
it is absolutely unconstitutional.
The Pledge of Allegience never even contained the offensive phrase
until the 1950s when Congress added it to show how ***** righteous
we were compared to the atheistic Commies. In one single act they
managed to turn a fairly innocent declaration of patriotism into
an act of religious expression, thereby excluding a large segment
of the population who may not have shared a belief in a single god,
any god at all, or those who simply believed in the separation of
church and state.
Then Papa Doc George H.W. Bush took it a step further during his
regime when he attacked Michael Dukakis' patriotism and said that
if he were elected he would support a federal law REQUIRING all
school teachers to lead their students in the Pledge of Allegience
every day. I don't think that law ever passed, but it does blow
holes in the Republicans' argument that the "under gawd" provision
of the Pledge is Constitutional as no one is required to say the
Pledge if they object. The father who filed the lawsuit in this
case argues that even if the Pledge is technically a volunatary
act, in reality students who choose to opt out of it face
potentially severe retribution from "patriotic" classmates.
We need to put a stop to this right now! The Supreme Court MUST
strike down the Pledge on separation of church/state grounds.
If the Pledge is upheld, what's next, going back to the "good old
days" when schoolchildren were required to read the bible in
school? This is NOT Iran or Afghanistan! If the Republicans
want a society like that, they should move to those countries
and let the rest of us Americans enjoy our freedom.
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| User: "eepeep" |
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| Title: Re: Separation of Church and State? What a Snow Job |
28 Feb 2004 01:42:59 PM |
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"Ted Kaczynski" <tedkacyzski@unabomb.com> wrote:
"Snubis" <snubis@wp.pl> wrote...
Earlier this week the United States Supreme Court agreed to review the
Ninth Circuit's decision that struck down the recital of the Pledge of
Allegiance in California’s public schools. At issue were the words
“under
God” in the Pledge, the inclusion of which the three-judge panel
felt
amounted to California establishing religion. Here's hoping the
Supremes
will take this case not only as another opportunity to reverse the
Ninth
Circuit – a frequent happening, that -- but also to inject some
common
sense and accurate history into the church/state discussion. Because
from
where I'm sitting, there's little of either.
I hope the Supreme Court strikes the Pledge down as unconstitutional.
Although I recited it as a child, by high school I realized it was
a loyalty oath and began refusing to participate on the principle
that people in free countries shouldn't be taking loyalty oaths. The
"under gawd" part hadn't even occurred to me, but I now realize that
it is absolutely unconstitutional.
The Pledge of Allegience never even contained the offensive phrase
until the 1950s when Congress added it to show how ***** righteous
we were compared to the atheistic Commies. In one single act they
managed to turn a fairly innocent declaration of patriotism into
an act of religious expression, thereby excluding a large segment
of the population who may not have shared a belief in a single god,
any god at all, or those who simply believed in the separation of
church and state.
Then Papa Doc George H.W. Bush took it a step further during his
regime when he attacked Michael Dukakis' patriotism and said that
if he were elected he would support a federal law REQUIRING all
school teachers to lead their students in the Pledge of Allegience
every day. I don't think that law ever passed, but it does blow
holes in the Republicans' argument that the "under gawd" provision
of the Pledge is Constitutional as no one is required to say the
Pledge if they object. The father who filed the lawsuit in this
case argues that even if the Pledge is technically a volunatary
act, in reality students who choose to opt out of it face
potentially severe retribution from "patriotic" classmates.
The father is just another idiotic liberal who doesn't understand
reality. I opted out of saying the pledge when I was in junior high and
high school. It's easy. You don't say anything. You stand up with
everyone else, to show respect, and just don't say anything. How hard is
that? It's a real pain in the ***** when people keep wanting to push their
beliefs (or unbeliefs) on everyone else.
And the Pledge is not religious in any way. One little phrase that's
vaguely _spiritual_ at best does not make the entire thing religious.
Wake up and smell reality.
EepEep
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| User: "Ray Fischer" |
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| Title: Re: Separation of Church and State? What a Snow Job |
28 Feb 2004 02:13:59 PM |
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eepeep <me@me.org> wrote:
The father is just another idiotic liberal who doesn't understand
reality. I opted out of saying the pledge when I was in junior high and
high school. It's easy. You don't say anything. You stand up with
everyone else, to show respect, and just don't say anything. How hard is
that? It's a real pain in the ***** when people keep wanting to push their
beliefs (or unbeliefs) on everyone else.
And the Pledge is not religious in any way.
religious: relating to or manifesting faithful devotion to an
acknowledged ultimate reality or deity.
Looks like it is religious.
One little phrase that's
vaguely _spiritual_ at best does not make the entire thing religious.
Then remove the "one little phrase".
--
Ray Fischer
rfischer@sonic.net
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| User: "Snubis" |
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| Title: Re: Separation of Church and State? What a Snow Job |
27 Feb 2004 12:59:23 PM |
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On Fri 27 Feb 2004 02:06:38p, "Ted Kaczynski" <tedkacyzski@unabomb.com> wrote
in news:W7WdnUoR9bfdCKLdRVn-ig@bravo.net:
We need to put a stop to this right now! The Supreme Court MUST
strike down the Pledge on separation of church/state grounds.
There is no separation of church and state.
--
€
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| User: "ImpBush" |
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| Title: Re: Separation of Church and State? What a Snow Job |
27 Feb 2004 02:28:38 PM |
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"Snubis" <snubis@wp.pl> wrote in message
news:6adc7e93e461d1c4085affc54825fe3d@news.teranews.com...
On Fri 27 Feb 2004 02:06:38p, "Ted Kaczynski" <tedkacyzski@unabomb.com>
wrote
in news:W7WdnUoR9bfdCKLdRVn-ig@bravo.net:
We need to put a stop to this right now! The Supreme Court MUST
strike down the Pledge on separation of church/state grounds.
There is no separation of church and state.
Hey jackass, what if the muslems lobbied the government to have "under
allah" added to the pledge?
You would certainly be singing a different tune right now.
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| User: "The other Donald" |
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| Title: Re: Separation of Church and State? What a Snow Job |
27 Feb 2004 01:34:24 PM |
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"Snubis" <snubis@wp.pl> wrote in message
news:6adc7e93e461d1c4085affc54825fe3d@news.teranews.com...
On Fri 27 Feb 2004 02:06:38p, "Ted Kaczynski" <tedkacyzski@unabomb.com>
wrote
in news:W7WdnUoR9bfdCKLdRVn-ig@bravo.net:
We need to put a stop to this right now! The Supreme Court MUST
strike down the Pledge on separation of church/state grounds.
There is no separation of church and state.
Oh yes there certainly fucking well is....!
First Amendment: "Congress shall pass no law respecting an establishment of
religion....."
US Constitution, Article VI:
"The Senators and Representatives before mentioned, and the members of the
several state legislatures, and all executive and judicial officers, both of
the United States and of the several states, shall be bound by oath or
affirmation, to support this Constitution; but no religious test shall ever
be required as a qualification to any office or public trust under the
United States."
Then there's Article 11 of the Treaty of Tripoli that states, explicitly,
that "the Un
"As the government of the United States of America is not in any sense
founded on the Christian Religion..."
"Separation of church and state" is a phrase coined by Thomas Jefferson in
an exchange with the Danbury Baptist Convention.
Get a fucking life and quit spewing your lies, Snubis
-Donald in Austin
AA #2104
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| User: "Lord Calvert" |
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| Title: Re: Separation of Church and State? What a Snow Job |
29 Feb 2004 11:44:55 PM |
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There is no separation of church and state.
Oh yes there certainly fucking well is....!
Please do not feed the troll. Just report him to the Department of Homeland
Security so he can be picked up and thrown in Guantanamo with the rest of his
Taliban friends.
Rich Goranson, Amherst, NY, USA (aa#MCMXCIX, a-vet#1)
EAC Department of Applied Rattan Use
"Without faith we might relapse into scientific or rational thinking, which
leads by a slippery slope toward constitutional democracy." - Robert Anton
Wilson
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| User: "Jim Warren" |
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| Title: Re: Separation of Church and State? What a Snow Job |
27 Feb 2004 01:48:31 PM |
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On Fri, 27 Feb 2004 19:34:24 GMT, "The other Donald"
<the_donald_13@yehaw2.com> wrote:
Oh yes there certainly fucking well is....!
First Amendment: "Congress shall pass no law respecting an establishment of
religion....."
US Constitution, Article VI:
"The Senators and Representatives before mentioned, and the members of the
several state legislatures, and all executive and judicial officers, both of
the United States and of the several states, shall be bound by oath or
affirmation, to support this Constitution; but no religious test shall ever
be required as a qualification to any office or public trust under the
United States."
Then there's Article 11 of the Treaty of Tripoli that states, explicitly,
that "the Un
"As the government of the United States of America is not in any sense
founded on the Christian Religion..."
"Separation of church and state" is a phrase coined by Thomas Jefferson in
an exchange with the Danbury Baptist Convention.
Get a fucking life and quit spewing your lies, Snubis
What do you neo-cons want?
You want to force me to attend church?
Do you want to make it illegal for me to challenge your doctrines?
Do I have to pray?
In your world what role would religion play?
Kill all homosexual? (overstatement)
Kill all unwed mothers? (overstatement)
Public whippings? (Accurate)
If you want a theocracy, please name a successful theocracy that we
could pattern ours after.
Which theos would it be?
If it is a Christian Theos which of the 3,500 mainstream Christian
sects would it be.
Do you see a problem here?
Read a book about the middle ages?
Do you know why colleges were created? To teach the nobles how to read
so the church couldn't control them because of their illiteracies
anymore.
Your side has had its chance to show us how a church/state works.
Thanks for nothing.
-- Remove word virus from return address
Need new signature old one not good.
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| User: "webgiant" |
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| Title: Re: Separation of Church and State? What a Snow Job |
28 Feb 2004 11:40:57 AM |
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On Fri, 27 Feb 2004 14:48:31 -0500,
Jim Warren
<jmwarren@Virus.msu.edu>
wrote:
On Fri, 27 Feb 2004 19:34:24 GMT,
"The other Donald"
<the_donald_13@yehaw2.com>
wrote:
[in response to the claim by Snubis
that there is no "separation of
Church and State"]
Oh yes there certainly fucking well
is....!
First Amendment: "Congress shall pass
no law respecting an establishment of
religion....."
And its interesting to point out that the
rest of that sentence, "or prohibiting
the free exercise thereof" is just as
important: "God" is a term used for a
monotheistic religion, and there are
several religions in the world which are
either atheistic (Buddhism) or pantheistic
(Hindu, Hare Krishna), and many of their
followers are U.S. Citizens.
US Constitution, Article VI:
"The Senators and Representatives
before mentioned, and the members
of the several state legislatures,
and all executive and judicial
officers, both of the United States
and of the several states, shall be
bound by oath or affirmation, to
support this Constitution; but no
religious test shall ever be required
as a qualification to any office or
public trust under the United States."
Then there's Article 11 of the Treaty
of Tripoli that states, explicitly,
that "As the government of the United
States of America is not in any
sense founded on the Christian
Religion..."
"Separation of church and state" is
a phrase coined by Thomas Jefferson
in an exchange with the Danbury
Baptist Convention.
Get a fucking life and quit spewing
your lies, Snubis
What do you neo-cons want?
You want to force me to attend church?
Do you want to make it illegal for me
to challenge your doctrines?
Do I have to pray?
In your world what role would religion
play?
Kill all homosexual? (overstatement)
Kill all unwed mothers? (overstatement)
Public whippings? (Accurate)
If you want a theocracy, please name
a successful theocracy that we could
pattern ours after.
Which theos would it be?
If it is a Christian Theos which of
the 3,500 mainstream Christian sects
would it be.
Do you see a problem here?
Read a book about the middle ages?
Do you know why colleges were created?
To teach the nobles how to read so the
church couldn't control them because of
their illiteracies anymore.
And an interesting bit of history: the
Church is recorded as admonishing pastoral
priests for deliberately making up Scripture
as they went along. The illiterate peasants
would be unable to contradict the priest's
"Scripture" because he would be the only
person for miles who knew how to read,
especially who knew how to read Latin.
Your side has had its chance to show
us how a church/state works.
Thanks for nothing.
The U.S.A. was formed when our Founding
Fathers fought a *war* against a country,
England, whose King declared himself to
be *simultaneously* the head of the
government AND the head of the Church!
They put in the first line of the First
Amendment to address this issue, and
Article V of the U.S. Constitution.
And now Republicans are claiming that
the Founders never meant for religion
to remain outside of government.
All the Founders must be spinning in
their graves, probably fast enough
that we could generate enough
electricity from their spinning dead
bodies to replace our dependence on
foreign oil!
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| User: "jacinthfish" |
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| Title: Re: Separation of Church and State? What a Snow Job |
28 Feb 2004 02:34:35 PM |
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Separation of church and state, Constitutionally, only refers to the
prevention of any particular denomination or sect of christianity's bias
infringement upon Our mutually inalienably True Christian Government and Our
mutually inalienably True Christian Law. True Christianity is not disparate
to Gnosticism or even pantheism or panentheism as long as it remains
monotheistic, honoring The One True God.
-jacinthfish
"The other Donald" <the_donald_13@yehaw2.com> wrote in message
news:4ZM%b.14957$OH4.6279@fe2.texas.rr.com...
"Snubis" <snubis@wp.pl> wrote in message
news:6adc7e93e461d1c4085affc54825fe3d@news.teranews.com...
On Fri 27 Feb 2004 02:06:38p, "Ted Kaczynski" <tedkacyzski@unabomb.com>
wrote
in news:W7WdnUoR9bfdCKLdRVn-ig@bravo.net:
We need to put a stop to this right now! The Supreme Court MUST
strike down the Pledge on separation of church/state grounds.
There is no separation of church and state.
Oh yes there certainly fucking well is....!
First Amendment: "Congress shall pass no law respecting an establishment
of
religion....."
US Constitution, Article VI:
"The Senators and Representatives before mentioned, and the members of the
several state legislatures, and all executive and judicial officers, both
of
the United States and of the several states, shall be bound by oath or
affirmation, to support this Constitution; but no religious test shall
ever
be required as a qualification to any office or public trust under the
United States."
Then there's Article 11 of the Treaty of Tripoli that states, explicitly,
that "the Un
"As the government of the United States of America is not in any sense
founded on the Christian Religion..."
"Separation of church and state" is a phrase coined by Thomas Jefferson in
an exchange with the Danbury Baptist Convention.
Get a fucking life and quit spewing your lies, Snubis
-Donald in Austin
AA #2104
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| User: "Ray Fischer" |
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| Title: Re: Separation of Church and State? What a Snow Job |
28 Feb 2004 03:02:47 PM |
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jacinthfish <jacinthfish@bellsouth.com> wrote:
Separation of church and state, Constitutionally, only refers to the
prevention of any particular denomination or sect of christianity
That's a lie. The constitution prohibits the endorsement of ALL
religion.
--
Ray Fischer
rfischer@sonic.net
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| User: "Vic Sagerquist" |
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| Title: Re: Separation of Church and State? What a Snow Job |
27 Feb 2004 02:52:43 PM |
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One day in alt.atheism, Also Sprach Snubis:
On Fri 27 Feb 2004 02:06:38p, "Ted Kaczynski" <tedkacyzski@unabomb.com>
wrote in news:W7WdnUoR9bfdCKLdRVn-ig@bravo.net:
We need to put a stop to this right now! The Supreme Court MUST
strike down the Pledge on separation of church/state grounds.
There is no separation of church and state.
Who taught you to post to usenet? You couldn't have learned it all by
yourself if you are this fucking stupid.
The religious right wants to take over the USA. Separation of church and
state prevents this. It's not surprising you homegrown knuckle-draggers
like to go about denying your own constitution.
And you call yourself an American!
--
Vic Sagerquist
aa#2011
Plonked by Angelicusrex 2/24/04
______________
The fool says in his heart, "There is no God".
The wise man announces it to the world.
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| User: "ZenIsWhen" |
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| Title: Re: Separation of Church and State? What a Snow Job |
27 Feb 2004 05:27:54 PM |
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"Vic Sagerquist" <address@withheld.com> wrote in message
news:949C8B62Dvicman@127.0.0.1...
One day in alt.atheism, Also Sprach Snubis:
On Fri 27 Feb 2004 02:06:38p, "Ted Kaczynski" <tedkacyzski@unabomb.com>
wrote in news:W7WdnUoR9bfdCKLdRVn-ig@bravo.net:
We need to put a stop to this right now! The Supreme Court MUST
strike down the Pledge on separation of church/state grounds.
There is no separation of church and state.
Who taught you to post to usenet? You couldn't have learned it all by
yourself if you are this fucking stupid.
The religious right wants to take over the USA. Separation of church and
state prevents this. It's not surprising you homegrown knuckle-draggers
like to go about denying your own constitution.
And you call yourself an American!
**************************************
http://www.au.org/press/pr040220.htm
""God has chosen, through his son Jesus Christ, this time, this place for
all Christians - Protestants, Catholics and Orthodox - to save our country
and save our courts," Pryor told the crowd."
William Pryor.
The man appointed to the bench by Bush while the Senate was out of town ...
the same Senate that earlier rejected that appointment.
*********************
http://www.au.org/press/pr040114.htm
"Dozier has repeatedly expressed an intolerant and theocratic approach to
government. According to a report in the New Times Broward-Palm Beach late
last year, Dozier told a Religious Right gathering, "We as Christians must
take control of the government. We should be the ones in charge of the
government.""
Dozier is a minister, and a Jeb Bush appointee to a panel that helps select
state court judges.
He does so by asking them blatantly unconstitutional questions about their
religious beliefs and practices!
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| User: "Snubis" |
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| Title: Re: Separation of Church and State? What a Snow Job |
27 Feb 2004 02:46:17 PM |
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On Fri 27 Feb 2004 03:52:43p, (Vic Sagerquist) wrote
in news:949C8B62Dvicman@127.0.0.1:
One day in alt.atheism, Also Sprach Snubis:
On Fri 27 Feb 2004 02:06:38p, "Ted Kaczynski" <tedkacyzski@unabomb.com>
wrote in news:W7WdnUoR9bfdCKLdRVn-ig@bravo.net:
We need to put a stop to this right now! The Supreme Court MUST
strike down the Pledge on separation of church/state grounds.
There is no separation of church and state.
Who taught you to post to usenet? You couldn't have learned it all by
yourself if you are this fucking stupid.
The religious right wants to take over the USA. Separation of church
and state prevents this. It's not surprising you homegrown
knuckle-draggers like to go about denying your own constitution.
If you think crap like "separation of church and state" is written
somewhere in the Constitution then no wonder the religious right is taking
over the country.
--
€
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| User: "Vic Sagerquist" |
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| Title: Re: Separation of Church and State? What a Snow Job |
27 Feb 2004 03:01:14 PM |
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One day in alt.atheism, Also Sprach Snubis:
On Fri 27 Feb 2004 03:52:43p, (Vic Sagerquist) wrote
in news:949C8B62Dvicman@127.0.0.1:
One day in alt.atheism, Also Sprach Snubis:
On Fri 27 Feb 2004 02:06:38p, "Ted Kaczynski" <tedkacyzski@unabomb.com>
wrote in news:W7WdnUoR9bfdCKLdRVn-ig@bravo.net:
We need to put a stop to this right now! The Supreme Court MUST
strike down the Pledge on separation of church/state grounds.
There is no separation of church and state.
Who taught you to post to usenet? You couldn't have learned it all by
yourself if you are this fucking stupid.
The religious right wants to take over the USA. Separation of church
and state prevents this. It's not surprising you homegrown
knuckle-draggers like to go about denying your own constitution.
If you think crap like "separation of church and state" is written
somewhere in the Constitution then no wonder the religious right is taking
over the country.
LOL!
I was right, you are a knuckledragger. Look it up yourself,
knuckledragger. It's in the First Amendment.
--
Vic Sagerquist
aa#2011
Plonked by Angelicusrex 2/24/04
______________
The fool says in his heart, "There is no God".
The wise man announces it to the world.
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| User: "Snubis" |
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| Title: Re: Separation of Church and State? What a Snow Job |
27 Feb 2004 02:58:39 PM |
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On Fri 27 Feb 2004 04:01:14p, (Vic Sagerquist) wrote
in news:949C8BD03vicman@127.0.0.1:
One day in alt.atheism, Also Sprach Snubis:
On Fri 27 Feb 2004 03:52:43p, (Vic Sagerquist)
wrote in news:949C8B62Dvicman@127.0.0.1:
One day in alt.atheism, Also Sprach Snubis:
On Fri 27 Feb 2004 02:06:38p, "Ted Kaczynski"
<tedkacyzski@unabomb.com> wrote in
news:W7WdnUoR9bfdCKLdRVn-ig@bravo.net:
We need to put a stop to this right now! The Supreme Court MUST
strike down the Pledge on separation of church/state grounds.
There is no separation of church and state.
Who taught you to post to usenet? You couldn't have learned it all by
yourself if you are this fucking stupid.
The religious right wants to take over the USA. Separation of church
and state prevents this. It's not surprising you homegrown
knuckle-draggers like to go about denying your own constitution.
If you think crap like "separation of church and state" is written
somewhere in the Constitution then no wonder the religious right is
taking over the country.
LOL!
I was right, you are a knuckledragger. Look it up yourself,
knuckledragger. It's in the First Amendment.
The First Amendment
"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or
prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech,
or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to
petition the government for a redress of grievances."
Hmm. Nothing remotely resembling "separation of church and state" there.
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| User: "Ray Fischer" |
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| Title: Re: Separation of Church and State? What a Snow Job |
27 Feb 2004 11:44:33 PM |
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I see that Snubis is spamming newsgroups in a pathetic attampt to
start another flame war. Followups adjusted.
Snubis <snubis@wp.pl> wrote:
Earlier this week the United States Supreme Court agreed to review the
Ninth Circuit's decision that struck down the recital of the Pledge of
Allegiance in California’s public schools. At issue were the words “under
God” in the Pledge, the inclusion of which the three-judge panel felt
amounted to California establishing religion.
Which is obviously is.
Here's hoping the Supremes
will take this case not only as another opportunity to reverse the Ninth
Circuit – a frequent happening, that -- but also to inject some common
sense and accurate history into the church/state discussion.
You want to use the schools to promote religion.
The case has been the subject of an intense national debate. A district
court in Sacramento initially dismissed the lawsuit brought by an atheist,
Michael A. Newdow, who did not want his daughter exposed daily in her
elementary school classroom to "a ritual proclaiming that there is a God."
A three-member panel of the Ninth Circuit overturned that decision, first
ruling in June that the words "under God” made the pledge itself
unconstitutional.
Wrong. There is nothing unconstitutional about the pledge of
allegience. It is impermissable to have students in public
schools recite the pledge so long as it promotes religion.
--
Ray Fischer
rfischer@sonic.net
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| User: "eepeep" |
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| Title: Re: Separation of Church and State? What a Snow Job |
28 Feb 2004 01:49:53 PM |
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(Ray Fischer) wrote:
Snubis <snubis@wp.pl> wrote:
Earlier this week the United States Supreme Court agreed to review the
Ninth Circuit's decision that struck down the recital of the Pledge of
Allegiance in California’s public schools. At issue were the words
“under God” in the Pledge, the inclusion of which the three-judge
panel felt amounted to California establishing religion.
Which is obviously is.
Only in the mind of narrow-minded people who don't understand religion.
Here's hoping the Supremes
will take this case not only as another opportunity to reverse the
Ninth Circuit – a frequent happening, that -- but also to inject some
common sense and accurate history into the church/state discussion.
You want to use the schools to promote religion.
That's a non-sequiter. Besides, the Pledge is not promoting religion,
it's promoting loyalty to the country. Which is worse, imo, but that's
besides the point.
The case has been the subject of an intense national debate. A
district court in Sacramento initially dismissed the lawsuit brought
by an atheist, Michael A. Newdow, who did not want his daughter
exposed daily in her elementary school classroom to "a ritual
proclaiming that there is a God." A three-member panel of the Ninth
Circuit overturned that decision, first ruling in June that the words
"under God” made the pledge itself unconstitutional.
Wrong. There is nothing unconstitutional about the pledge of
allegience. It is impermissable to have students in public
schools recite the pledge so long as it promotes religion.
If it said anything about worshipping God, then it would be promoting
religion. Stating that there is a God, of some kind is not promoting
religion. And there's nothing in the Constitution forbidding it anyways.
All the Constitution forbids is having the gov't say that one religion is
better than another.
EepEep
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| User: "ImpBush" |
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| Title: Re: Separation of Church and State? What a Snow Job |
27 Feb 2004 12:49:17 PM |
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They never should have allowed a religious men's group (knights of columbus)
to lobby in 1954 to have "under god" added to OUR pledge to begin with.
Keep religious cults and their "gods" out of OUR government.
"Snubis" <snubis@wp.pl> wrote in message
news:2592970a1f470de28a53a63a826c1acc@news.teranews.com...
Earlier this week the United States Supreme Court agreed to review the
Ninth Circuit's decision that struck down the recital of the Pledge of
Allegiance in California's public schools. At issue were the words "under
God" in the Pledge, the inclusion of which the three-judge panel felt
amounted to California establishing religion. Here's hoping the Supremes
will take this case not only as another opportunity to reverse the Ninth
Circuit - a frequent happening, that -- but also to inject some common
sense and accurate history into the church/state discussion. Because from
where I'm sitting, there's little of either.
The case has been the subject of an intense national debate. A district
court in Sacramento initially dismissed the lawsuit brought by an atheist,
Michael A. Newdow, who did not want his daughter exposed daily in her
elementary school classroom to "a ritual proclaiming that there is a God."
A three-member panel of the Ninth Circuit overturned that decision, first
ruling in June that the words "under God" made the pledge itself
unconstitutional. Earlier this year, the court tempered its ruling by
confining it to the public school context, invalidating school policies
that require teachers to lead willing students in the Pledge.
The Ninth Circuit's aversion to "under God" didn't come from whole cloth.
Left-leaning jurists have been building a wall between church and state
since the days of the Warren Court. Inspired by the spirits of Thomas
Jefferson and James Madison, the Supreme Court began its modern day
crusade
against religion in 1962 when it struck down a state-composed non-
denominational classroom prayer (Engel v. Vitale). It later extended that
ruling to ban daily classroom readings of The Bible (Abington School Dist.
V. Schempp (1963)) and to strike down an Alabama statute that authorized a
one-minute silent period at the start of each day to be used for
meditation
or prayer (Wallace v. Jaffree (1985)). These practices were all voluntary,
and were all invalidated even though the First Amendment says the
government may not prohibit "the free exercise" of religion. The basis:
the
Jeffersonian proposition that, although it didn't say so, the First
Amendment was intended to erect a wall between church and state.
What a bill of goods. As M. Stanton Evans detailed in his excellent 1994
book "The Theme Is Freedom: Religion, Politics, and the American
Tradition," before, during, and after they ratified the Constitution, the
state legislatures and Congress acted like a wall between church and state
was the last thing on their collective mind. Official state churches were
the rage in colonial times, with no fewer than nine of the colonies having
state religions as late as 1775. They gradually fell out of favor over the
next several years, but in 1789, the year of the Constitutional
Convention,
the three New England states still had official religions, and most of the
other states still retained some official sanctions for religious belief.
South Carolina's constitution, for example, deemed "the Christian
Protestant religion" to be "the established religion of the state" and
said
that no religious society could be deemed a church unless it agreed, inter
alia, that "the Christian religion is the true religion." The Maryland
Constitution decreed "a general and equal tax for the support of the
Christian religion." New Jersey expressed the idea by saying "no
Protestant
inhabitant of this colony shall be denied the enjoyment of any civil
right." In 1780, Massachusetts authorized a special levy to support
"public
Protestant teachers of piety, religion and morality." New Hampshire later
adopted that formula - verbatim.
State involvement with religion didn't vanish with ratification. Until
1826, you had to be a Christian to hold public office in Maryland. North
Carolina required elected officials to be Protestant until 1835, when it
said any type of Christian would do. Massachusetts didn't abolish its
established church until 1833. New Jersey didn't allow Roman Catholics to
hold office until 1844. New Hampshire didn't abandon its requirement that
one had to be a Protestant to serve in the legislature until 1877.
Congress didn't ditch religion, either. After it ratified the Bill of
Rights, Congress retained its Chaplain (a position created in 1774) and
continued to open its proceedings with a prayer. And - here's a biggie --
the very day after it passed the Bill of Rights in 1789, the House of
Representatives passed a resolution calling for a day of national prayer
and thanksgiving. The resolution thanked the "Almighty God" for allowing
the United States the opportunity to establish a constitutional
government.
An also-grateful-to-God President George Washington issued a proclamation
designating that day, now known as Thanksgiving. See the problem? If the
First Amendment really meant to establish a separation of church and
state,
then Congress, the states and George Washington violated it - and kept on
violating it -- right after its inception.
Logically, that's nonsense. Truth is, the men who passed the Bill of
Rights
intended for the Establishment Clause to speak not to what the states
could
say about religion vis-à-vis the people, but what Congress could do vis-à-
vis the states. We know that because, after much deliberation, that's how
they wrote it: "Congress shall make no law respecting the establishment of
religion." (Italics mine.) And we know it because, in introducing a set of
amendments to the Constitution in June 1789, including one speaking to the
establishment of religion, Madison said as much. To wit: when Roger
Sherman
suggested to Madison that the Establishment Clause was unnecessary because
of the Tenth Amendment, which reserved all powers not expressly granted to
the federal government to the states, Madison explained that
he apprehended the meaning of the words to be, that Congress shall not
establish a religion and enforce the legal observation of it by law, nor
compel men to worship God in any manner contrary to their conscience.
Whether the words are necessary or not, he did not mean to say, but they
had been required by some of the state conventions, who seemed to
entertain
an opinion that (under the "necessary and proper" clause) . . . Congress .
. . might infringe the rights of conscience and establish a national
religion; to prevent these effects he presumed the amendment was intended,
and he thought it as well expressed as the nature of language would admit.
(Italics in Stanton's version.) Translation: Madison introduced the
language because others in the state conventions wanted it; he did so on
their behalf; and its intent was merely to prohibit Congress from
interfering with the states' prerogatives on the subject of religion by
setting up a national one. Madison should have listened to Sherman
because,
suffice it to say, never in the history of man has such a clarifier
wrought
such havoc.
But straightforward as it was, the Establishment Clause hasn't aged well.
Since the Fourteenth Amendment was ratified after the Civil War to
guarantee equal protection and due process to blacks, the Supreme Court
has
extended it to make almost all of the Bill of Rights' guarantees
applicable
to the states. Of course nowhere in the Fourteenth- or any of the other
Civil War amendments does it say "the Bill of Rights shall now be
applicable to the states," but in most matters, particularly in areas of
individual rights, binding state governments to the same set of rules as
the federal government made good sense. But in 1947, the Court made the
Establishment Clause binding on the states. The irony: the provision
originally offered on behalf of the states to protect their prerogatives
on
matters of religion now prohibited them.
Nicholas G. Jenkins
Founder and Chief Executive Officer
The Fence
www.thefence.com
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