| Topic: |
Religions > Atheism |
| User: |
"Geoff" |
| Date: |
30 Sep 2006 05:46:23 AM |
| Object: |
Serious question about Muslim etiquette |
I am an atheist...my wife and I met a lovely Muslim couple (she wears
the full covering and appears to be very devout)...I had no problem shaking
his hand but I was unsure of how I should greet her in the future.
Can I embrace her? Can I shake her hand? Can I touch her at all?
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| User: "Larry Heath" |
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| Title: Re: Serious question about Muslim etiquette |
30 Sep 2006 05:00:35 PM |
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"Geoff" <gebobs@yahoo.nospam.com> wrote in message
news:Je6dncEfLtUsmYPYnZ2dnUVZ_tqdnZ2d@comcast.com...
I am an atheist...my wife and I met a lovely Muslim couple (she wears
the full covering and appears to be very devout)...I had no problem
shaking
his hand but I was unsure of how I should greet her in the future.
Can I embrace her? Can I shake her hand? Can I touch her at all?
With the status of women in Islam being what it is, I would say ignore that
she even exists, unless she is expressly invited into conversation with you
by her husband, even then I would guess she would only speak directly to her
husband. NO PHYSICAL CONTACT! A slight nod or very slight bow as
acknowledgement of her presence at the very most, if you must, then
completely ignore her.
If she is wearing the Burka that is a MAJOR signal that Islamic traditions
are in FULL force.
Here are a few statements, hadiths actually ( hadiths = doctrines derived by
religious scholars or Immam as social guidence having almost the force of
law), regarding social interactions of men and women in Islam.
- Better for a man to be splashed (urine feces?) by a pig (pigs being very
unclean anamals) than for him to brush against the elbow of a woman not
permitted him.
- Better to bury an iron needle in the head of one of you than to touch a
women not permitted him.
- He who touches the palm of a woman not legally his will have red-hot
embers put in the palm of his hand on judgment day.
From page 301 of the below suggested book.
You might pick up a copy of "Why I am not a Muslim" by Ibn Warraq. It is
quite an enlightening text on Islam by a former Moslem, former meaning he
should be killed instantly according to Islamic law. It is not a
recreational read and takes some perseverance to get thorough, but I think
it quite enlightening about the Moslem mind and world as a whole.
You must also remember your status with him is probably as a non-believer
(that is a believer in some other god, just not Allah) is lower than that of
the average Islamic man and mostly likely even lower than that of an Islamic
woman. As an atheist you probably are even lower still, if not deserving of
instant death in the mind of some radical moslems. I don't think striking up
a conversation, with him, about religion in general or lack there of would
lead to a very fruitful conversation.
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| User: "Geoff" |
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| Title: Re: Serious question about Muslim etiquette |
30 Sep 2006 10:43:17 PM |
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"Larry Heath" <lgheath@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:Z6ydnT6A9Y1-P4PYnZ2dnUVZ_tKdnZ2d@comcast.com...
"Geoff" <gebobs@yahoo.nospam.com> wrote in message
news:Je6dncEfLtUsmYPYnZ2dnUVZ_tqdnZ2d@comcast.com...
I am an atheist...my wife and I met a lovely Muslim couple (she wears
the full covering and appears to be very devout)...I had no problem
shaking
his hand but I was unsure of how I should greet her in the future.
Can I embrace her? Can I shake her hand? Can I touch her at all?
With the status of women in Islam being what it is, I would say ignore
that she even exists, unless she is expressly invited into conversation
with you by her husband, even then I would guess she would only speak
directly to her husband. NO PHYSICAL CONTACT! A slight nod or very slight
bow as acknowledgement of her presence at the very most, if you must, then
completely ignore her.
If she is wearing the Burka that is a MAJOR signal that Islamic traditions
are in FULL force.
No they seem to be a perfectly happy couple and she is very outgoing. She
doesn't wear a burka...just the full length dress and headdress...her face
is not covered.
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| User: "Larry Heath" |
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| Title: Re: Serious question about Muslim etiquette |
01 Oct 2006 03:02:15 PM |
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"Geoff" <gebobs@yahoo.nospam.com> wrote in message
news:NvmdneXpjYuRboPYnZ2dnUVZ_rWdnZ2d@comcast.com...
"Larry Heath" <lgheath@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:Z6ydnT6A9Y1-P4PYnZ2dnUVZ_tKdnZ2d@comcast.com...
"Geoff" <gebobs@yahoo.nospam.com> wrote in message
news:Je6dncEfLtUsmYPYnZ2dnUVZ_tqdnZ2d@comcast.com...
I am an atheist...my wife and I met a lovely Muslim couple (she wears
the full covering and appears to be very devout)...I had no problem
shaking
his hand but I was unsure of how I should greet her in the future.
Can I embrace her? Can I shake her hand? Can I touch her at all?
With the status of women in Islam being what it is, I would say ignore
that she even exists, unless she is expressly invited into conversation
with you by her husband, even then I would guess she would only speak
directly to her husband. NO PHYSICAL CONTACT! A slight nod or very slight
bow as acknowledgement of her presence at the very most, if you must,
then completely ignore her.
If she is wearing the Burka that is a MAJOR signal that Islamic
traditions are in FULL force.
No they seem to be a perfectly happy couple and she is very outgoing. She
doesn't wear a burka...just the full length dress and headdress...her face
is not covered.
OK, major difference. I assumed when you said "full covering" you were
describing a burka like garment.
I would still not have any direct physical contact unless initiated by her,
particularly in a public setting with other people around, but include her
in conversations and be attentive to her as well as her husband. In a
private setting such as your home or theirs I would guess that things would
be somewhat less constrained. My understanding is that many Muslims have
quite different public and private personas and can act quite differently in
each of these situations. Sounds like they are a more cosmopolitan couple.
Just give it time.
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| User: "Jenny6833A" |
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| Title: Re: Serious question about Muslim etiquette |
30 Sep 2006 05:55:04 PM |
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Geoff wrote:
I am an atheist...
Irrelevant to your question.
... my wife and I met a lovely Muslim couple (she wears
the full covering and appears to be very devout) ...
What besides her apparel gave you the "devout" impression?
I'll add that "devout" and dress habits are not necessarily related.
Think Egypt and all the other Muslim countries where devout women are
not burdened by burkas. Think all the non-Mulsim countries where
devout Muslim women live while blending in culturally.
...I had no problem shaking
his hand but I was unsure of how I should greet her in the future.
Say "Hello" and see what she (and he) does next.
What many posters in this thread are missing is that the "full
covering" is not in itself an indication of much of anything. It could
be her strongly felt religious dictate, but not his. It could be his
strongly felt religious dictate but not hers. It could be a strongly
felt religious dictate of both of them -- or of neither of them. That
is, it could be no more than cultural habit, with no religious
implications whatever, or just a personal style preference which varies
with the situation in the same sense as non-Muslim women who dress
formally or informally depending on the occasion.
And the "full covering" is not of itself an indication of anything else
-- certainly not who she talks to or who she non-sexually touches.
It's difficult to say more because you don't tell us what country your
meeting occurred in, in what place, in what circumstances, or anything
else that's useful in providing a clue.
It does appear that you met them together in a public place, which
indicates she's not of the totally cloistered variety.
For all you know, she does the family shopping alone, gets the car
lubed alone, works as a programmer at some large company where she
intereacts with hundreds of others, and has a couple of late teen or
older daughters who have not been raised to wear what you call the
"full covering."
Can I embrace her?
Sheeesh! I hope you wouldn't do that to any woman (or man) without a
prior indication of willingness.
Can I shake her hand?
You can stick your hand out if you like. Then it's up to her.
Can I touch her at all?
Howzaboutcha offer a handshake first, and see what happens.
But before you even do that, say "Hello" and see what she (and he) does
next.
Above all, stop doing what you've been doing in your post. Stop making
assumptions based solely on what she was wearing the first time you saw
her.
:-)
Jenny
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| User: "Geoff" |
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| Title: Re: Serious question about Muslim etiquette |
30 Sep 2006 10:53:27 PM |
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"Jenny6833A" <Jenny6833A@aol.com> wrote in message
news:1159638904.060019.52400@c28g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
Geoff wrote:
I am an atheist...
Irrelevant to your question.
I thought it was a proper introduction to illustrate my ignorance of
religious customs. Sheesh...did some of you people not have your coffee
today?
... my wife and I met a lovely Muslim couple (she wears
the full covering and appears to be very devout) ...
What besides her apparel gave you the "devout" impression?
They were fasting for Ramadan. There's another clue. Aside from that, I
guess I'm jumping to conclusions. Which I guess is why I said "appears".
<snip very thoughtful and appreciated comments>
Can I embrace her?
Sheeesh! I hope you wouldn't do that to any woman (or man) without a
prior indication of willingness.
Um...thanks. No wonder I get slapped so much .
Seriously, I think I gave the wrong impression. I'm not trying to plan my
next attack on this poor woman. I'm just interested if there were any hard
and fast customs.
Can I shake her hand?
You can stick your hand out if you like. Then it's up to her.
Can I touch her at all?
Howzaboutcha offer a handshake first, and see what happens.
Sounds like a perfectly fine idea.
But before you even do that, say "Hello" and see what she (and he) does
next.
Above all, stop doing what you've been doing in your post. Stop making
assumptions based solely on what she was wearing the first time you saw
her.
Who said my assumptions were based solely on her dress? I think I'm capable
of being quite a bit more discerning than that.
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| User: "Budikka666" |
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| Title: Re: Serious question about Muslim etiquette |
30 Sep 2006 10:53:21 AM |
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Geoff wrote:
I am an atheist...my wife and I met a lovely Muslim couple (she wears
the full covering and appears to be very devout)...I had no problem shaking
his hand but I was unsure of how I should greet her in the future.
Can I embrace her? Can I shake her hand? Can I touch her at all?
Ask you question in a muslim group! It's not really one for atheists
to answer. As a general rule of thumb, however, I'd venture that the
more obscured the woman is, the less contact you should have, and it's
always better to err on the side of reserve.
Budikka
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| User: "Geoff" |
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| Title: Re: Serious question about Muslim etiquette |
30 Sep 2006 10:41:02 PM |
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"Budikka666" <budikka1@netscape.net> wrote in message
news:1159613601.887918.214130@b28g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
Geoff wrote:
I am an atheist...my wife and I met a lovely Muslim couple (she wears
the full covering and appears to be very devout)...I had no problem
shaking
his hand but I was unsure of how I should greet her in the future.
Can I embrace her? Can I shake her hand? Can I touch her at all?
Ask you question in a muslim group! It's not really one for atheists
to answer.
I did...why is it not one for atheists to answer...do other atheists live in
a vacuum...why wan't I told
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| User: "Mike" |
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| Title: Re: Serious question about Muslim etiquette |
30 Sep 2006 07:19:36 AM |
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Geoff wrote:
I am an atheist...my wife and I met a lovely Muslim couple (she wears
the full covering and appears to be very devout)...I had no problem shaking
his hand but I was unsure of how I should greet her in the future.
Can I embrace her? Can I shake her hand? Can I touch her at all?
I might cautiously extend my hand and see if she responds with a
handshake or chooses not to notice. Unless they are fresh off the
boat, they would understand the handshake custom and not be offended.
I would NOT offer to embrace her unless she first moves to embrace you.
Ditto for a kiss on the cheek.
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| User: "Tough Tonto" |
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| Title: Re: Serious question about Muslim etiquette |
30 Sep 2006 07:20:51 PM |
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Geoff wrote:
I am an atheist...my wife and I met a lovely Muslim couple (she wears
the full covering and appears to be very devout)...I had no problem
shaking
his hand but I was unsure of how I should greet her in the future.
Can I embrace her? Can I shake her hand? Can I touch her at all?
Pat her on the *****. Tell them that's our custom. That should get
the conversation rolling.
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| User: "Davej" |
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| Title: Re: Serious question about Muslim etiquette |
30 Sep 2006 11:53:06 PM |
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Geoff wrote:
I am an atheist...my wife and I met a lovely Muslim couple (she wears
the full covering and appears to be very devout)...I had no problem shaking
his hand but I was unsure of how I should greet her in the future.
Can I embrace her? Can I shake her hand? Can I touch her at all?
Yeah I always embrace the married women I've just met, especially if it
insults their religion.
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| User: "gps" |
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| Title: Re: Serious question about Muslim etiquette |
30 Sep 2006 10:47:24 AM |
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Geoff wrote:
I am an atheist...my wife and I met a lovely Muslim couple (she wears
the full covering and appears to be very devout)...I had no problem shaking
his hand but I was unsure of how I should greet her in the future.
Can I embrace her? Can I shake her hand? Can I touch her at all?
Could you ask him or her what would be acceptable?
--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com
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| User: "Michael Gray" |
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| Title: Re: Serious question about Muslim etiquette |
30 Sep 2006 11:11:31 AM |
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On Sat, 30 Sep 2006 01:46:23 -0400, "Geoff" <gebobs@yahoo.nospam.com>
wrote:
- Refer: <Je6dncEfLtUsmYPYnZ2dnUVZ_tqdnZ2d@comcast.com>
I am an atheist...my wife and I met a lovely Muslim couple (she wears
the full covering and appears to be very devout)...I had no problem shaking
his hand but I was unsure of how I should greet her in the future.
Can I embrace her? Can I shake her hand? Can I touch her at all?
Why are you asking us, and not an Immam?
I mean, you don't get a seamstress to do your tax returns, do you?
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| User: "raven1" |
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| Title: Re: Serious question about Muslim etiquette |
30 Sep 2006 07:44:23 AM |
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On Sat, 30 Sep 2006 01:46:23 -0400, "Geoff" <gebobs@yahoo.nospam.com>
wrote:
I am an atheist...my wife and I met a lovely Muslim couple (she wears
the full covering and appears to be very devout)...I had no problem shaking
his hand but I was unsure of how I should greet her in the future.
Can I embrace her? Can I shake her hand? Can I touch her at all?
Ask her husband, and then contemplate for a while why this is so.
--
"O Sybilli, si ergo
Fortibus es in ero
O Nobili! Themis trux
Sivat sinem? Causen Dux"
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| User: "Mike" |
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| Title: Re: Serious question about Muslim etiquette |
30 Sep 2006 07:56:52 AM |
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raven1 wrote:
On Sat, 30 Sep 2006 01:46:23 -0400, "Geoff" <gebobs@yahoo.nospam.com>
wrote:
I am an atheist...my wife and I met a lovely Muslim couple (she wears
the full covering and appears to be very devout)...I had no problem shaking
his hand but I was unsure of how I should greet her in the future.
Can I embrace her? Can I shake her hand? Can I touch her at all?
Ask her husband, and then contemplate for a while why this is so.
Not clear that this is the right route. Muslims vary very widely on
these matters. Since Geoff describes them as "lovely" his intention is
simply to understand their preferences. The husband may dislike his
touching his wife, but find it awkward or impolite to say so. The
woman would presumably know her husband's feelings on this and act
accordingly.
"O Sybilli, si ergo
Fortibus es in ero
O Nobili! Themis trux
Sivat sinem? Causen Dux"
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| User: "Therion Ware" |
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| Title: Re: Serious question about Muslim etiquette |
30 Sep 2006 10:42:36 AM |
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On Sat, 30 Sep 2006 01:46:23 -0400, Geoff wrote in message
<Je6dncEfLtUsmYPYnZ2dnUVZ_tqdnZ2d@comcast.com>:
I am an atheist...my wife and I met a lovely Muslim couple (she wears
the full covering and appears to be very devout)...I had no problem shaking
his hand but I was unsure of how I should greet her in the future.
Can I embrace her? Can I shake her hand? Can I touch her at all?
No to all of the above.
--
"Do unto others as you would have them do unto you".
attrib: Pauline Réage. Cine To DVD? http://www.video2cd.co.uk
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| User: "Elroy Willis" |
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| Title: Re: Serious question about Muslim etiquette |
30 Sep 2006 01:46:54 PM |
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Therion Ware <autodelete@city-of-dis.com> wrote in alt.atheism
Geoff wrote in message
I am an atheist...my wife and I met a lovely Muslim couple (she wears
the full covering and appears to be very devout)...I had no problem shaking
his hand but I was unsure of how I should greet her in the future.
Can I embrace her? Can I shake her hand? Can I touch her at all?
No to all of the above.
Is that what your wife said?
--
Elroy Willis
www.elroysemporium.com
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| User: "Therion Ware" |
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| Title: Re: Serious question about Muslim etiquette |
01 Oct 2006 06:51:25 AM |
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On Sat, 30 Sep 2006 13:46:54 GMT, Elroy Willis
<elroywillis@swbell.net> wrote:
Therion Ware <autodelete@city-of-dis.com> wrote in alt.atheism
Geoff wrote in message
I am an atheist...my wife and I met a lovely Muslim couple (she wears
the full covering and appears to be very devout)...I had no problem shaking
his hand but I was unsure of how I should greet her in the future.
Can I embrace her? Can I shake her hand? Can I touch her at all?
No to all of the above.
Is that what your wife said?
It certainly is! And of course one should bear in mind that Ramadan is
currently on, so religious sensibilities can be somewhat heightened.
--
"Do unto others as you would have them do unto you".
attrib: Pauline Réage. Cine To DVD? http://www.video2cd.co.uk
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| User: "stoney" |
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| Title: Re: Serious question about Muslim etiquette |
05 Oct 2006 04:29:44 PM |
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On Sun, 01 Oct 2006 07:51:25 +0100, Therion Ware
<autodelete@city-of-dis.com> wrote in alt.atheism
On Sat, 30 Sep 2006 13:46:54 GMT, Elroy Willis
<elroywillis@swbell.net> wrote:
Therion Ware <autodelete@city-of-dis.com> wrote in alt.atheism
Geoff wrote in message
I am an atheist...my wife and I met a lovely Muslim couple (she wears
the full covering and appears to be very devout)...I had no problem shaking
his hand but I was unsure of how I should greet her in the future.
Can I embrace her? Can I shake her hand? Can I touch her at all?
No to all of the above.
Is that what your wife said?
It certainly is! And of course one should bear in mind that Ramadan is
currently on, so religious sensibilities can be somewhat heightened.
Now that's one heck of a oxymoron. 'Religious sensibilities.'
--
Fundies and trolls are cordially invited to
shove a wooden cross up their arses and rotate
at a high rate of speed. I trust you'll
be 'blessed' with a plethora of splinters.
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| User: "Tim McGaughy" |
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| Title: Re: Serious question about Muslim etiquette |
30 Sep 2006 08:41:14 PM |
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Therion Ware wrote:
On Sat, 30 Sep 2006 01:46:23 -0400, Geoff wrote in message
<Je6dncEfLtUsmYPYnZ2dnUVZ_tqdnZ2d@comcast.com>:
I am an atheist...my wife and I met a lovely Muslim couple (she wears
the full covering and appears to be very devout)...I had no problem shaking
his hand but I was unsure of how I should greet her in the future.
Can I embrace her? Can I shake her hand? Can I touch her at all?
No to all of the above.
Ya know, I have a friend who grew up in Lebanon, is muslim, reads her
quran every day, has a prayer mat, etc, etc.
She has no problem hugging a friend, just as she's had no problem
wearing a mohawk or hanging out at punk shows for most of her life.
It all comes down to how fundy they are. Just as christians vary in
assholiness, so do muslims.
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| User: "Matt Silberstein" |
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| Title: Re: Serious question about Muslim etiquette |
01 Oct 2006 12:39:52 PM |
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On Sat, 30 Sep 2006 01:46:23 -0400, in alt.atheism , "Geoff"
<gebobs@yahoo.nospam.com> in
<Je6dncEfLtUsmYPYnZ2dnUVZ_tqdnZ2d@comcast.com> wrote:
I am an atheist...my wife and I met a lovely Muslim couple (she wears
the full covering and appears to be very devout)...I had no problem shaking
his hand but I was unsure of how I should greet her in the future.
Can I embrace her? Can I shake her hand? Can I touch her at all?
Here are two crazy ideas. Ask some Muslims. Or, and this is really
crazy, ask them!
--
Matt Silberstein
Do something today about the Darfur Genocide
http://www.beawitness.org
http://www.darfurgenocide.org
http://www.savedarfur.org
"Darfur: A Genocide We can Stop"
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| User: "Hannele Hannele@lycos-nl" |
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| Title: Re: Serious question about Muslim etiquette |
30 Sep 2006 11:21:18 PM |
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Op Sat, 30 Sep 2006 07:46:23 +0200 schreef Geoff <gebobs@yahoo.nospam.com>:
I am an atheist...my wife and I met a lovely Muslim couple (she wears
the full covering and appears to be very devout)...I had no problem
shaking
his hand but I was unsure of how I should greet her in the future.
Can I embrace her? Can I shake her hand? Can I touch her at all?
Do not try to embrace or kiss her, your wife might do that if and when
they become friends, but I don't think it wise for you to even try. As for
handshakes, that's be up to her, if she indicates she doesn't mind just go
ahead and shake, but always give her a chance to (politely) decline. Most
muslim women won't be offended by an offered hand, just make sure that she
knows that there's no pressure to accept it.
The wisest solution is, of course, to ask them what is acceptable. Ask him
when she is present and you'll know what to do when you next meet.
Oh, don't forget to wish them a good Ramadan, it's that time of the year
again. Play your cards right and you might be in for some great cookies in
3 weeks time, when it will be El Eid again. ;-)
--
Hannele
aa #2221
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