On Sat, 11 Oct 2003 22:27:59 -0400, Alex <a@b.c> wrote:

On 12 Oct 2003 01:55:02 GMT, John <john_weatherly47@yahoo.com> wrote:

On Sat, 11 Oct 2003 08:44:48 -0400, Alex <a@b.c> wrote:

I take your word for it that that's what
you're perceiving but understand that your perception isn't
necessarily reality.

Let's pretend that I believe you for 1/10th of a millisecond.

There's no belief necessary. That's a simple thing to understand:
Everyones' perceptions are flawed and can be fooled. (Of course, a
magician will say that everyones' perceptions can be *easily* fooled.)

What are
your problems with Christianity, with the Bible? With God?

In general, the many contradictions in the text.

Be specific. I worked some with "problem texts" in seminary and since.
Saying simply, "the many contradictions" says nothing.

Examples.

That's what got me

started, since then I've learned about the internal contradictions of
God's properties (or, if not contradictions, they invalidate things
like free will, e.g.).

?????

God is supreme, but we still have choices we can make. Can you
seriously believe God cares what brand of toothpaste you use? Do you
think for a moment God cares if you wear briefs or shorts? Do you
think God cares if your car is green or brown?

John W

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God is supreme, but we still have choices we can make. Can you
seriously believe God cares what brand of toothpaste you use?

Do you think for a moment God cares if you wear briefs or shorts?

Do you think God cares if your car is green or brown?

On Sat, 11 Oct 2003 22:27:59 -0400, Alex <a@b.c> wrote:

On 12 Oct 2003 01:55:02 GMT, John <john_weatherly47@yahoo.com> wrote:

What are
your problems with Christianity, with the Bible? With God?

In general, the many contradictions in the text.

Be specific. I worked some with "problem texts" in seminary and since.
Saying simply, "the many contradictions" says nothing.

That's what got me

started, since then I've learned about the internal contradictions of
God's properties (or, if not contradictions, they invalidate things
like free will, e.g.).

God is supreme, but we still have choices we can make. Can you
seriously believe God cares what brand of toothpaste you use? Do you
think for a moment God cares if you wear briefs or shorts? Do you
think God cares if your car is green or brown?

On 12 Oct 2003 02:03:38 GMT, John W <john_weatherly47@yahoo.com>
wrote:

On Sat, 11 Oct 2003 17:55:53 +0200, Thomas P.
<tonyofremovethisbexar@yahoo.dk,> wrote:

On 11 Oct 2003 05:07:26 GMT, John W <john_weatherly47@yahoo.com>
wrote:

On 10 Oct 2003 14:58:53 -0700,

Therion Ware <autodelete@city-of-dis.com> wrote in message news:<pfpdovkugui5rg9okmo44bojfolmn13o2s@4ax.com>...

Message originates from alt.atheism. You have been warned!

We Godless atheists are sometimes asked by believers of various
stripe: "what would convince you there is a God?".

There's only one thing that could convince me ... and that is ...

EVIDENCE.

So far, there has been none whatsoever.

Kenny L.

And you will never see any evidence for God because you #1 aren't
looking and #2 you aren't interested.

Would you mind explaining how you could possibly know that?

Would YOU explain how you could possibly NOT know the signals you
send? Your being part of an atheist thread indicates you're an
atheist. You have not protested otherwise. And there's simply no
"intellectual" basis for rejecting God, Christ, or the Bible.

Actually, there is one quite sound intellectual basis for rejecting
(and by rejecting I don't mean "denying", I mean "not accepting")
"God", "Christ" or the Bible: that there is no good reason to accept
the supernatural claims of the Bible as true. Claims require evidence.
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence, and the claims in
the Bible simply don't find any supporting evidence outside the Bible
itself.

If there is one thing that can be said about humans, it's that we've
made the manufacture of deities a cottage industry. Every culture
makes up god/desses, and makes all sorts of miraculous claims for
them. Do you have a particular reason to say of the Bible, "well, all
those other stories are myths, but this particular collection of
stories is true"?

Therefore, your only remaining excuse can be "not interested." However
you may say it otherwise.

There are other reasons, such as "read it, studied it, compared and
contrasted it with other scriptures, extrapolated applying it to the
real world, and found it wanting".

I personally do not accept any scripture as other than mythical; but
out of the many that I have studied, the Bible simply doesn't impress
me in any way; I certainly don't regard it as an appropriate
foundation for any kind of human morality, or as a revelation of some
kind of divine truth.

Even the currently topical "Ten Commandments" (taking the Protestant
version as opposed to the Roman Catholic/Orthodox version, which
differs slightly, and the Jewish version which is from a different
passage entirely) are highly debatable; some are obvious (prohibitions
against murder, theft, and perjury are necessary for and common to
virtually every society for self-evident reasons), some are
questionable (is one to honor one's parents even if daddy is a loan
shark and mommy pushes crack? Is adultery wrong if all parties agree
to it? Isn't coveting the basis of a capitalist society?), some aren't
even followed by their purported adherents (keeping the Sabbath holy,
which is observed by Jews, Seventh-Day Adventists, and very few
others; or not making graven images, which most Muslims interpret more
strictly than most Jews or Christians, going so far as to forbid the
depiction of living beings in their artwork), and one is completely
ambiguous ("taking the name of the Lord in vain", which can mean
anything from swearing false oaths in the name of God, to improperly
invoking the name "YHVH" to Orthodox Jews, or using interjections like
"***** it" during a ball game to an old-school Roman Catholic).

I would be interested, incidentally, in knowing whether you have read
and studied the Quran, the Bhagavad-Gita, the Upanishads, the various
other Vedic scriptures, the Tao Te Ching, the Book of the Law, the
Elder Edda, the Book of the Dead, et al, among the thousands of
purportedly sacred writings various human cultures have produced? If
not, what is your basis for rejecting them in favor of the Bible?

There is a bundle of evidence in the Bible, but you just explain it
away. Why? Not because it's not true. You shove it aside because you
simply aren't interested.

I disregard it because it simply isn't evidence; it's assertion. Why
should I accept it as true?

That is amazing! I cannot wait for you to tell us how you know how
other people think and what their private motivations are.

See above.

All I see above is, quite frankly, the typical paranoid accusatory
nonsense common to a small but vocal minority of Christians who are so
insecure in their faith that they can't see how anyone could possibly
sincerely reject their own core beliefs, and thus have to attribute
all levels of malice to those who do so.

Fortunately, such a position is not representative of Christians in
general; unfortunately, it seems all too representative of Christians
on Usenet.

There are none so blind as you who choose to not see.

There is another amazing talent many Christians have. How does one
choose to believe something? I never could figure that one out. Do
tell; I am really interested.

I came to a place in my life where I looked beyond me. I believed
because what harm would it do?

Are you serious? Rational people believe in things because they seem
likely to be true, not because believing in them will do no harm.
There's no harm in believing that invisible leprechauns are dancing a
merry jig on the White House lawn at this moment, or that I have Carl
Sagan's Dragon in my garage, but no rational person would believe it.

Incidentally, on the topic of "what harm would it do?", if the Muslims
are right, the prophets Jesus and Mohammed (pbut) will shake their
heads sadly on Judgement Day as Allah sends you to Hell for your
blasphemous worship of his prophet Jesus as divine.

The unfortunate problem with Pascal's Wager is that it's very much
contingent on picking the right "God".

On 12 Oct 2003 02:03:38 GMT, John W <john_weatherly47@yahoo.com>
wrote:

On Sat, 11 Oct 2003 17:55:53 +0200, Thomas P.
<tonyofremovethisbexar@yahoo.dk,> wrote:

On 11 Oct 2003 05:07:26 GMT, John W <john_weatherly47@yahoo.com>
wrote:

On 10 Oct 2003 14:58:53 -0700,

Therion Ware <autodelete@city-of-dis.com> wrote in message news:<pfpdovkugui5rg9okmo44bojfolmn13o2s@4ax.com>...

Message originates from alt.atheism. You have been warned!

We Godless atheists are sometimes asked by believers of various
stripe: "what would convince you there is a God?".

There's only one thing that could convince me ... and that is ...

EVIDENCE.

So far, there has been none whatsoever.

Kenny L.

And you will never see any evidence for God because you #1 aren't
looking and #2 you aren't interested.

Would you mind explaining how you could possibly know that?

Would YOU explain how you could possibly NOT know the signals you
send? Your being part of an atheist thread indicates you're an
atheist. You have not protested otherwise. And there's simply no
"intellectual" basis for rejecting God, Christ, or the Bible.
Therefore, your only remaining excuse can be "not interested." However
you may say it otherwise.

I am an atheist because I have seen no evidence to convince me of a
god. You have no way of knowing otherwise. There is, in fact, no
convincing, rational reason for me to accept Christianity. You have
provided no reason. All you do is throw out mindless insults and
convince others that you are insane.

There is a bundle of evidence in the Bible, but you just explain it
away. Why? Not because it's not true. You shove it aside because you
simply aren't interested.

That is amazing! I cannot wait for you to tell us how you know how
other people think and what their private motivations are.

See above.

In other words you have no way of knowing but cannot stand people who
disagree with you.

There are none so blind as you who choose to not see.

There is another amazing talent many Christians have. How does one
choose to believe something? I never could figure that one out. Do
tell; I am really interested.

I came to a place in my life where I looked beyond me. I believed
because what harm would it do? I came to God because I was not afraid.
And I was rewarded.

Pathetic.