On 11 Oct 2003 22:16:31 GMT, John <john_weatherly47@yahoo.com>
demonstrated his lack of bible reading to
alt.religion.christian.roman-catholic,alt.bible,alt.atheism,alt.religion.christian.baptist:

You truly have boxed yourself in. You now state that you're smarter
than all Christians who have ever lived before you, because the
BRILLIANT Dr. C S Lewis decided that there WAS enough evidence to
believe Christianity.

And an equal or exceeding number of even better trained people decided
there is not enough evidence. Argument upon authority... weak.

Rather than looking for God, (which is how you find Him), you look for
proof only that there IS NO god.

Johnny, what would you know about that? If one has been searching for
years for something, one isn't looking? Do you honestly believe we
woke up one fine morning deciding it was a great day to deny YOUR gods
existence? (You reject all other gods and possibilities by default.)
Most of ex xtians, and that includes me as well, desperately tried
everything to find faith. Only to discover there isn't any. I didn't
want to come to that conclusion, and it took me years to admit I was
right to begin with.

In other words, each "Problem" you've
resolved is merely a rebuff of choices/insights made by brighter folk
than you or me.

Argument upon authority.

What you have proved merely is that you aren't interested. If Jesus
Christ knocked on your door tomorrow, and you opened it, and He
levitated 2 feet off the ground, then pointed at you and YOU levitated
2 feet off the ground, you'd slam the door in His face. "Not
interested!"

Actually, it would be rather convincing to me. Tell you what: talk to
jesus, and ask him to do his stuff. Even better: ask jesus to do it on
a Sunday morning, say around 10.00 am on Sanaam Luang. Then he can
instantly convert a whole kingdom.

Monday morning at 08.00 am on Victory monument is not a good idea: far
too crowded, some people might panic.

Unacceptable "facts":
The Bible is not acceptable. It has no more weight than the contradictory
writings of other religions.

The Bible doesn't contradict itself. You speak from a VERY shallow
reading, looking ONLY for "inconsistencies", rather than Truth.

Which is excellent proof you did not read the bible.

And if you seek "inconsistencies" and "contradictions" in 66 books
written by some 40 authors, you will find them.

So snakes really can talk. How do they do that? Sign language, with
the tip of their tails? Flicking their tongues in morse code? How
about donkeys? How do they do that?

IF you are looking for Truth, you will find truth. Such as Daniel
accurately prophesying the future 3 World Kingdoms AFTER Babylon
(his).

How many kingdoms have come and gone after Daniel? I can easily count
50. Without using an encyclopedia.

How about this one: "his blood be upon us and our offspring." (free
translation to the Dutch text). Was used as justification for the
Endloesung by Hitler. I guess there really is truth in the bible.

The ONLY "explanation" other than truth is that the passage was
"written AFTERWARDS." That is not proof, since the Jews have evidence
of DAniel being written CENTURIES before Christ.

Woopy doo. Kingdoms come and go. What an incredible prophecy. Here's a
nice one: the United States will descend into chaos, and be no more.
My prophesy. And it will come true one day. Just wait (and wait and
wait and wait some more) and it will become true. Daniel is about the
worst example you can come up with.

However, you will cling to the plea "it was written AFTERWARDS,
OBVIOUSLY, because we KNOW men can't see the future." Men, maybe not;
God CAN see the future.

He might, if he existed outside your imagination.

And there is PLENTY of evidence for God inspiring the prophets of the
Old Testament, as well as Him inspiring the apostles of the New
Testament.

We don't even know how those apostles really were. The bible itself is
vague about their actual number: most assume 12, but you can find 15
different apostles in the various books. In all likelihood, at least
several never existed. None wrote a gospel. That is a fact.

About the prophets: plenty of them would be locked up in a mental
asylum today, should they start prophesing today. And a good number
did not exist either, or the texts ascribed to them are written by
others.

Not my opinion, but those of qualified christian theologists and bible
researchers.

You just have to open your little mind. THAT's what is not going to
happen! (you opening your mind).

True, it is not something we expect you to do.

Your battle is NOT intellectual; your battle is spiritual;moral. You
do not wish to obey/submit/worship.

*****. If there was a god, I'd more than happy to submit. I tried,
until I realized there aren't any.

John W

Besides which, the Bible is also self-contradictory.

Not so.

How eloquently put. Who taught you to discus on such high level? Your
fellow kindergarten inmates?

And contradicts known verifiable scientific research.

Not so. In fact, if you take the overview of Genesis, creation occurs
in the same order as does evolution.

Which of the two stories in particular?

The "humans show design with purpose" is not acceptable, because it assumes
the existence of that which is to be proven (namely, it assumes a designer
by stating "design" in the premise).

You miss the point in your rush to disqualify. Your remark is like
saying "we know there can't be flashlights, even though you are
holding one, since we know science cannot build flashlights."

I think we have discussed this ad nauseam before.

Your thinking is skewed, and you merely don't see the flashlight, with
the full glare in your face! Why don't you see it? You have your eyes
TIGHTLY shut!

The difference being the flashlight. Seen any growing on trees,
recently?

The "all complex things are created" argument is not acceptable, because it
implies infinite regression of creators (namely, god is, by definition
infinitely complex, therefore, by using the premise that all complex things
are created, god must have been created).

You violate "first cause." Science admits "it all started SOMEWHERE!"
Why not with God? You call your "first cause" evolution. Where did the
elements come from?

The big bang. Any other easy question?

Who created your creator? How much time passed before your creator
decided to create? Why did he create? Why did he create evil?

For your "evolution" we substitute the word/name "God", and we then
can collapse the BILLIONS of years YOUR god requires with a few
thousand our God required (for the earth in its current
configuration).

Sorry Johnny, we don't have a god. So arguing 'my god creates faster
than yours' is not very impressive. You could argue that your god has
at least six weeners. Since that number of divine foreskins are
preserved.

The "nature has laws, there must be a lawgiver" argument is not acceptable,
for 2 reasons. The first is that the term "law" is misused in this sense,
as natural laws are actually descriptions of observations. And the second is
the inherent question: Why this particular set? What I mean is why did god
specifically choose ~300,000 km/s as the speed of light? Why not any of the
other infinite number of possibilities?

Because He created the laws, He knows/knew what works.

A bit dyslectic? Those "laws" are merely observations.