On Mon, 13 Oct 2003 10:49:52 -0400, Beowulf
<beowulf_is_not_here@hotmail.com> wrote:

On 11 Oct 2003 22:16:31 GMT, John <john_weatherly47@yahoo.com>
ejaculated:

On Sat, 11 Oct 2003 05:02:37 -0400, "Doug Semler"
<doug_semler@REMOVEMEwideopenwest.com> wrote:

Short answer: Yes.

Long answer: If an acceptable, objectively verifiable *fact* is presented
which shows the existence of god, I will accept as fact that a powerful
being exists. To me, an acceptable, objectively verifiable fact would be a
face showing up in the moon observed by the entire world's populace
(including the blind) with a booming voice audible to the entire world's
populace (including the deaf) would be evidence of such a powerful being.
Maybe not god (maybe some alien trickster), but at least it would be a
start. Or if all of a sudden I awoke to a world free of war, famine,
pestilience, and harsh winters. Or if all the dead bodies currently buried
in the world arose and started Armageddon...you know, things like that.

You truly have boxed yourself in. You now state that you're smarter
than all Christians who have ever lived before you, because the
BRILLIANT Dr. C S Lewis decided that there WAS enough evidence to
believe Christianity.

I've read Lewis's reasons for why he became a Christian as outlined in
"Mere Christianity" and yes, they're rubbish.

In other words, all our reasons for believing must pass YOUR scrutiny!
Who died and appointed you God?

On Mon, 13 Oct 2003 10:49:52 -0400, Beowulf
<beowulf_is_not_here@hotmail.com> wrote:

On 11 Oct 2003 22:16:31 GMT, John <john_weatherly47@yahoo.com>
ejaculated:

On Sat, 11 Oct 2003 05:02:37 -0400, "Doug Semler"
<doug_semler@REMOVEMEwideopenwest.com> wrote:

Short answer: Yes.

Long answer: If an acceptable, objectively verifiable *fact* is presented
which shows the existence of god, I will accept as fact that a powerful
being exists. To me, an acceptable, objectively verifiable fact would be a
face showing up in the moon observed by the entire world's populace
(including the blind) with a booming voice audible to the entire world's
populace (including the deaf) would be evidence of such a powerful being.
Maybe not god (maybe some alien trickster), but at least it would be a
start. Or if all of a sudden I awoke to a world free of war, famine,
pestilience, and harsh winters. Or if all the dead bodies currently buried
in the world arose and started Armageddon...you know, things like that.

You truly have boxed yourself in. You now state that you're smarter
than all Christians who have ever lived before you, because the
BRILLIANT Dr. C S Lewis decided that there WAS enough evidence to
believe Christianity.

I've read Lewis's reasons for why he became a Christian as outlined in
"Mere Christianity" and yes, they're rubbish.

In other words, all our reasons for believing must pass YOUR scrutiny!
Who died and appointed you God?

We each have our reasons for believing. How do you like it when I say
YOUR reasons for NOT believing are rubbish?

John W

However, this really has little to do with who's smarter than who.
It's a matter of what evidence a person has seen. For whatever
reason, god has chosen to not reveal that particular bit of evidence
for his existence that I would find compelling.

As said before, all the evidence is available to everyone who wishes
to look. God is not a trained monkey who dances when you jerk the
string.

Should he exist, he

knows what that evidence is and he knows how to display it for me, and
yet he has not done so, even though I spent a good portion of my life
studying about and worshipping him. Why is that?

As said before, all the evidence is available to everyone who wishes
to look. God is not a trained monkey who dances when you jerk the
string.

You however continue to shake you rattle and shriek, "DO IT
MYYYYYYYYYY WAY!"

God does it His way.

John W

On Mon, 13 Oct 2003 10:49:52 -0400, Beowulf
<beowulf_is_not_here@hotmail.com> wrote:

On 11 Oct 2003 22:16:31 GMT, John <john_weatherly47@yahoo.com>
ejaculated:

On Sat, 11 Oct 2003 05:02:37 -0400, "Doug Semler"
<doug_semler@REMOVEMEwideopenwest.com> wrote:

Short answer: Yes.

Long answer: If an acceptable, objectively verifiable *fact* is presented
which shows the existence of god, I will accept as fact that a powerful
being exists. To me, an acceptable, objectively verifiable fact would be a
face showing up in the moon observed by the entire world's populace
(including the blind) with a booming voice audible to the entire world's
populace (including the deaf) would be evidence of such a powerful being.
Maybe not god (maybe some alien trickster), but at least it would be a
start. Or if all of a sudden I awoke to a world free of war, famine,
pestilience, and harsh winters. Or if all the dead bodies currently buried
in the world arose and started Armageddon...you know, things like that.

You truly have boxed yourself in. You now state that you're smarter
than all Christians who have ever lived before you, because the
BRILLIANT Dr. C S Lewis decided that there WAS enough evidence to
believe Christianity.

I've read Lewis's reasons for why he became a Christian as outlined in
"Mere Christianity" and yes, they're rubbish.

In other words, all our reasons for believing must pass YOUR scrutiny!

Who died and appointed you God?

We each have our reasons for believing. How do you like it when I say
YOUR reasons for NOT believing are rubbish?

However, this really has little to do with who's smarter than who.
It's a matter of what evidence a person has seen. For whatever
reason, god has chosen to not reveal that particular bit of evidence
for his existence that I would find compelling.

As said before, all the evidence is available to everyone who wishes
to look. God is not a trained monkey who dances when you jerk the
string.

Should he exist, he
knows what that evidence is and he knows how to display it for me, and
yet he has not done so, even though I spent a good portion of my life
studying about and worshipping him. Why is that?

As said before, all the evidence is available to everyone who wishes
to look. God is not a trained monkey who dances when you jerk the
string.

You however continue to shake you rattle and shriek, "DO IT
MYYYYYYYYYY WAY!"

God does it His way.

On 10 Oct 2003 14:58:53 -0700,

Therion Ware <autodelete@city-of-dis.com> wrote in message news:<pfpdovkugui5rg9okmo44bojfolmn13o2s@4ax.com>...

Message originates from alt.atheism. You have been warned!

We Godless atheists are sometimes asked by believers of various
stripe: "what would convince you there is a God?".

There's only one thing that could convince me ... and that is ...

EVIDENCE.

So far, there has been none whatsoever.

Kenny L.

And you will never see any evidence for God because you #1 aren't
looking and #2 you aren't interested.

There is a bundle of evidence in the Bible, but you just explain it
away. Why? Not because it's not true. You shove it aside because you
simply aren't interested.

There are none so blind as you who choose to not see.

"You don't break God's laws; they break you."

Charlie Shedd

John W

On Sun, 12 Oct 2003 11:05:32 +0200, Thomas P.
<tonyofremovethisbexar@yahoo.dk,> wrote:

On 11 Oct 2003 22:16:31 GMT, John <john_weatherly47@yahoo.com> wrote:

On Sat, 11 Oct 2003 05:02:37 -0400, "Doug Semler"

snip

Long answer: If an acceptable, objectively verifiable *fact* is presented
which shows the existence of god, I will accept as fact that a powerful
being exists. To me, an acceptable, objectively verifiable fact would be a
face showing up in the moon observed by the entire world's populace
(including the blind) with a booming voice audible to the entire world's
populace (including the deaf) would be evidence of such a powerful being.
Maybe not god (maybe some alien trickster), but at least it would be a
start. Or if all of a sudden I awoke to a world free of war, famine,
pestilience, and harsh winters. Or if all the dead bodies currently buried
in the world arose and started Armageddon...you know, things like that.

You truly have boxed yourself in. You now state that you're smarter
than all Christians who have ever lived before you,

No he said nothing even remotely similar to that.

You missed it.

because the

BRILLIANT Dr. C S Lewis decided that there WAS enough evidence to
believe Christianity.

So? He wasn't brilliant, but it would be irrelevant if he had been.

He WAS brilliant. I wouldn't expect YOU to appreciate his mind.

Rather than looking for God, (which is how you find Him), you look for
proof only that there IS NO god. In other words, each "Problem" you've
resolved is merely a rebuff of choices/insights made by brighter folk
than you or me.

Do you believe everything any "smart person" believes? Your appeal to
authority only proves that you are not very bright.

On Sun, 12 Oct 2003 15:24:10 -0500, Daniel Kolle <DKolle@hotmail.com>
wrote:

John W <john_weatherly47@yahoo.com> thought hard and said:

Congratulations. Glad I made you happy. Now turn it around. Could I
reveal ANY FACT to you, ANY FACT whatever, that would cause you to
believe in God and in His Son?


John W

Short answer: no.

Well, you're predictable!

Until you can approach both God and me with respect, you've had your
fun with me. I don't crack jokes about eternity.

On Mon, 13 Oct 2003 10:44:32 -0400, Beowulf
<beowulf_is_not_here@hotmail.com> wrote:

On 11 Oct 2003 05:04:51 GMT, John W <john_weatherly47@yahoo.com>
ejaculated:

On Fri, 10 Oct 2003 20:28:47 +0100, Therion Ware
<autodelete@city-of-dis.com> wrote:

On 10 Oct 2003 19:17:52 GMT in alt.atheism, John W (John W
<john_weatherly47@yahoo.com>) said, directing the reply to
alt.atheism

On Fri, 10 Oct 2003 18:07:11 +0100, Therion Ware
<autodelete@city-of-dis.com> wrote:

Message originates from alt.atheism. You have been warned!

We Godless atheists are sometimes asked by believers of various
stripe: "what would convince you there is a God?".

By the same token I'm curious to know is there is any matter of fact,
that if shown beyond any doubt to be true, or at least beyond
reasonable dispute, that would convince you believers that there is no
God.

Short answer: No.

Good answer in as much as it tells me all I need to know.

Congratulations. Glad I made you happy. Now turn it around. Could I
reveal ANY FACT to you, ANY FACT whatever, that would cause you to
believe in God and in His Son?

I'd be ecstatic if you could reveal evidence for the existence of
"God" and "His Son". Do you have any?

I probably still wouldn't worship him, because the God depicted in the
Bible is a psychopathic monster, but I would at least believe he
existed.

Until you can approach both God and me with respect, you've had your
fun with me.

I don't crack jokes about eternity.

On Sat, 11 Oct 2003 17:55:52 +0200, Thomas P.
<tonyofremovethisbexar@yahoo.dk,> wrote:

On 11 Oct 2003 05:04:51 GMT, John W <john_weatherly47@yahoo.com>
wrote:

On Fri, 10 Oct 2003 20:28:47 +0100, Therion Ware
<autodelete@city-of-dis.com> wrote:

On 10 Oct 2003 19:17:52 GMT in alt.atheism, John W (John W
<john_weatherly47@yahoo.com>) said, directing the reply to
alt.atheism

On Fri, 10 Oct 2003 18:07:11 +0100, Therion Ware
<autodelete@city-of-dis.com> wrote:

Message originates from alt.atheism. You have been warned!

We Godless atheists are sometimes asked by believers of various
stripe: "what would convince you there is a God?".

By the same token I'm curious to know is there is any matter of fact,
that if shown beyond any doubt to be true, or at least beyond
reasonable dispute, that would convince you believers that there is no
God.

Short answer: No.

Good answer in as much as it tells me all I need to know.

Congratulations. Glad I made you happy. Now turn it around. Could I
reveal ANY FACT to you, ANY FACT whatever, that would cause you to
believe in God and in His Son?

I would at least begin to take the claim seriosuly if you revealed to
me the name of the book lying by my computer.

What has given you the impression that Christians perform parlor
tricks, or that we are pre-cognitive or clairvoyant?

There is no purpose to your challenge but to feel cutesy. God isn't
into cutesy.

That should be really

easy. It is nothing like universal peace or having Bush make a speech
without making a mistake. When should I expect an answer?

If you were truly interested, you'd come up with a better question
than you did.

That you chose to be cutesy is a measure that you AREN'T interested,
but merely looking to waste the time of sincere Christians.

And if YOU aren't serious, why should I be? Waste someone else's
time.

On Sat, 11 Oct 2003 17:55:52 +0200, Thomas P.
<tonyofremovethisbexar@yahoo.dk,> wrote:

On 11 Oct 2003 05:04:51 GMT, John W <john_weatherly47@yahoo.com>
wrote:

On Fri, 10 Oct 2003 20:28:47 +0100, Therion Ware
<autodelete@city-of-dis.com> wrote:

On 10 Oct 2003 19:17:52 GMT in alt.atheism, John W (John W
<john_weatherly47@yahoo.com>) said, directing the reply to
alt.atheism

On Fri, 10 Oct 2003 18:07:11 +0100, Therion Ware
<autodelete@city-of-dis.com> wrote:

Message originates from alt.atheism. You have been warned!

We