| Topic: |
Religions > Atheism |
| User: |
"Chris Assaf" |
| Date: |
28 Sep 2003 12:54:24 PM |
| Object: |
Serious Questions for Atheists |
In order to be fair in the debate about matters of faith, it's not
just the Christian who must be called to the witness stand. Even those
who dispute or who otherwise persist in voicing skepticism about
Christianity have some questions to answer. In fact, considering the
evidence, it no doubt requires more faith to stand outside the circle
of those who believe than to join it. To ensure integrity, therefore,
on the part of even our readers who are not yet believers, here are a
few issues about which you too should be able to give an account.
How do you explain the high degree of design and order in the
universe?
Learn more about the universe / origin of life / origin of species
/ origin of mankind
How do you account for the vast archaeological documentation of
Biblical stories, places, and people?
Reliability of the Bible - In what ways have archaeological
discoveries verified it? / Bible archaeology evidences
Since absolutely no Bible prophecy has ever failed (and there are
hundreds), how can one realistically remain unconvinced that the Bible
is of Divine origin?
Read about fulfilled biblical prophecies...
Explain David's graphic portrayal of Jesus' death by crucifixion
(Psalm 22) 1000 years previous to crucifixion being established as a
form of capital punishment?
How could any mere human pinpoint the birth town of the Messiah seven
full centuries before the fact, as did the prophet Micah?
Read the "God's Story" account of Micah describing the Messiah...
Account for the odds (1 in 10 to the 157th power) that even just 48
(of 300) Old Testament prophecies were fulfilled in one person, i.e
Jesus.
Prophecies
How was it possible for the Old Testament prophet Isaiah to have
predicted the virgin birth of Jesus (Isaiah 7:14) 700 years before it
occurred?
Read the "God's Story" account of the prophets describing the
Savior / Is the virgin birth a myth?
How can anyone doubt the reliability of Scripture considering the
number and proximity to originals of its many copied manuscripts?
Read about the importance of the discovery of the Dead Sea Scrolls
/ Discovering the Bible videos explain the manuscript evidence and
much more
Are you able to live consistently with your present worldview?
Visit Summit Ministries for worldview comparisons...
Wouldn't it make better sense, even pragmatically, to live as though
the God of the Bible does exist than as though He doesn't?
In what sense was Jesus a 'Good Man' if He was lying in His claim to
be God?
Is Jesus Christ really God?...
Do you think that Jesus was misguided in affirming the truthfulness of
Scripture, i.e. John 10:35, Matthew 24, Luke 24:44?
If the Bible is not true, why is it so universally regarded as the
'Good Book'?
How can I know if the Bible is true?... / Is the Bible truth or
tabloid? / Can the Bible be infallible if it is written by fallible
humans?
Are you aware that the Old Testament alone claims to be God's inspired
word at least 2600 times?
Did you know that the Bible has been the number one best-seller every
year since the 1436 invention of the Gutenberg printing press?
The Bible -- an amazing book...
From whence comes humanity's universal moral sense?
If man is nothing but the random arrangement of molecules, what
motivates you to care and to live honorably in the world?
Explain how personality could have ever evolved from the impersonal,
or how order could have ever resulted from chaos.
If Jesus' resurrection was faked, why would twelve intelligent men
(Jesus' disciples) have died for what they knew to be a lie?
Is the resurrection a myth?...
How do you explain the fact that a single, relatively uneducated and
virtually untraveled man, dead at age 33, radically changed lives and
society to this day?
Learn more about Jesus' life, death and resurrection...
Why have so many of history's greatest thinkers been believers? Have
you ever wondered why thousands of intelligent scientists, living and
dead, have been men and women of great faith?
Do real scientists believe in Creation? / Is the Bible completely
accurate, or does it contain some inaccuracies about history and
science?
Isn't it somewhat arrogant to suggest that countless churches and
people (including men like Abraham Lincoln) are all radically in error
in their view of the Bible?
How do you account for the origin of life considering the irreducible
complexity of its essential components?
Learn more about the origin of life...
How can the Second Law of Thermodynamics be reconciled with
progressive, naturalistic evolutionary theory?
Second Law of Thermodynamics - Does this basic law of nature
prevent Evolution?...
How do you reconcile the existence of human intelligence with
naturalism and the Law of Entropy?
Why does the Bible alone, of all of the world's 'holy' books, contain
such detailed prophecies of future events?
Learn more about the Bible...
On what basis can the Bible (interpreted as per historic Christian
orthodoxy) be challenged as a sole, final truth-standard (Galatians
1:8)?
Is it absolutely true that "truth is not absolute" or only relatively
true that "all things are relative?"
The Loss of Truth -- Are we living in a moral stone age?...
Is it possible that your unbelief in God is actually an unwillingness
to submit to Him?
God's plan
Does your present worldview provide you with an adequate sense of
meaning and purpose?
How do you explain the radically changed lives of so many Christian
believers down through history?
Are you aware that every alleged Bible contradiction has been answered
in an intelligible and credible manner?
More about Bible contradictions...
What do you say about the hundreds of scholarly books that carefully
document the veracity and reliability of the Bible?
Why and how has the Bible survived and even flourished in spite of
centuries of worldwide attempts to destroy and ban its message?
Recommended resource: The Indestructible Book (video)...
Why isn't it absurd to try to speak or even conceive of a non-existent
'God' when an existing God would, by definition, be greater?
Have you ever considered the fact that Christianity is the only
religion whose leader is said to have risen from the dead?
Is Christianity really unique among world religions?...
How do you explain the empty tomb of Jesus in light of all the
evidence that has now proven essentially irrefutable for twenty
centuries?
Is the resurrection a myth? / Did Christ really rise from the dead?
/ Were the witnesses hallucinating?
If Jesus did not actually die and rise from the dead, how could He (in
His condition) have circumvented all of the security measures in place
at His tomb?
Did Jesus really die? / How did Jesus die? / What is crucifixion?
If the authorities stole Jesus' body, why? Why would they have
perpetrated the very scenario that they most wanted to prevent?
Could Jesus' body have been stolen from the tomb?...
If Jesus merely resuscitated in the tomb, how did He deal with the
Roman guard posted just outside its entrance?
Could Jesus' have merely fainted? / Is the resurrection a myth? /
Did Christ really rise from the dead?
How can one realistically discount the testimony of over 500 witnesses
to a living Jesus following His crucifixion (see 1 Corinthians 15:6)?
Maybe the witnesses were just seeing things?...
If all of Jesus' claims to be God were the result of His own
self-delusion, why didn't He evidence lunacy in any other areas of His
life?
Is Jesus Christ's character consistent with his high claims?...
If God is unchanging, wouldn't it be true that one who changes by
suddenly "realizing" that he/she is 'God' therefore isn't God?
Is your unbelief in a perfect God possibly the result of a bad
experience with an imperfect Church or a misunderstanding of the
facts, and therefore an unfair rejection of God Himself? >> Why should
I consider Christianity, if all Christians are hypocrites? / What kind
of world would you create? / How did bad things come about? / Why do
the innocent suffer? / Does God feel your pain? / Goodness of God / Is
God fair? / How can a God of love send anybody to Hell?
How did 35-40 men, spanning 1500 years and living on three separate
continents, ever manage to author one unified message, i.e. the Bible?
Can the Bible be infallible if it is written by fallible humans? /
More about the congruency of the Bible / The Discovering the Bible
videos explain the amazing authorship of the Bible and many other
evidences
Would you charge the Declaration of Independence with error in
affirming that "all men are endowed by their Creator..."?
Because life origins are not observable, verifiable, or falsifiable,
how does historical 'science' amount to anything more than just
another faith system?
What is the nature of science and scientists? / Frequently asked
questions on the Origin of Life
What do you make of all the anthropological studies indicating that
even the most remote tribes show some sort of theological awareness?
Why subscribe to the incredible odds that the tilt and position of our
planet relative to the sun are merely coincidental?
Consider: Was there a big bang?...
If every effect has a cause, and if God Himself is the universe (i.e.
is one with the universe, as some non-Christians suggest), what or who
then caused the universe?
See our Creation SuperLibrary for answer about
Creation/Evolution...
What would be required to persuade you to become a believer?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
A college student attended a philosophy class which held a discussion
about God's existence. The professor presented the following logic:
"Has anyone in this class ever heard God?" No one spoke. "Has anyone
in this class ever touched God?" Again, no one spoke. "Has anyone in
this class ever seen God?" When no one spoke for the third time, he
said, "Then there is no God."
One student thought for a second and then asked for permission to
reply. Curious to hear this bold student's response, the professor
agreed. The student stood up and asked the following: "Has anyone in
this class ever heard our professor's brain?" Silence. "Has anyone in
this class ever touched our professor's brain?" Absolute silence. "Has
anyone in this class ever seen our professor's brain?" When no one in
the class dared to speak, the student concluded, "Then, according to
our professor's logic, it must be true that our professor has no
brain!"
The student received an 'A' in the class.
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| User: "Caleb The Profit" |
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| Title: Re: Serious Questions for Atheists |
30 Sep 2003 12:00:49 AM |
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"Chris Assaf" <cassaf2001@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:dbd0d335.0309280954.8568eaf@posting.google.com...
Does your present worldview provide you with an adequate sense of
meaning and purpose?
Yes. I run a home for runaway teenage girls - between 16 and 20 years old.
My sole purpose is to provide them with the knowledge of the Lord and
attempt to bring them to Him through the example of my life and much prayer.
Since I am also an amateur gynecologist, I am able to provide the girls with
certain specialized medical services right in my home. My favorite saying
in my home is "Trust me I'm a doctor". My second is when one of the girls
get saved and screams "God, I'm coming".
Thank you Jesus for allowing me to serve you in this small but meaningful
and purposeful way.
Caleb
--
http://www.selfabuse.org
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| User: "Chris Assaf" |
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| Title: Re: Serious Questions for Atheists |
30 Sep 2003 03:35:36 PM |
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Well, there is always one who will take my articles (and that story) seriously.
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| User: "John Baker" |
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| Title: Re: Serious Questions for Atheists |
30 Sep 2003 07:41:13 PM |
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"Chris Assaf" <cassaf2001@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:dbd0d335.0309301235.57ea82b3@posting.google.com...
Well, there is always one who will take my articles (and that story)
seriously.
Not in this group, Sparky.
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| User: "david asman" |
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| Title: Re: Serious Questions for Atheists |
30 Sep 2003 03:39:24 PM |
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Chris Assaf wrote:
Well, there is always one who will take my articles (and that story) seriously.
Odds are that that one person won't be on any
of the newsgroups to which you are posting
this message.
Dave
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| User: "Douglas Berry" |
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| Title: Re: Serious Questions for Atheists |
30 Sep 2003 06:49:09 PM |
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Lo, many moons past, on 30 Sep 2003 13:35:36 -0700, a stranger called
by some (Chris Assaf) came forth and told this
tale in alt.atheism
Well, there is always one who will take my articles (and that story) seriously.
There are people who take UFO abductions stories seriously as well.
Search long enough, and you can find any sort of idiot.
So, you aren't going to answer my post in which addressed just about
all of your original points? I call you a coward.
--
Douglas Berry Do the OBVIOUS thing to send e-mail
Atheist #2147, Atheist Vet #5
Ezekiel 13:20 "Wherefore thus saith the
Lord GOD; Behold, I am against your pillows"
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| User: "Jos Flachs" |
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| Title: Re: Serious Questions for Atheists |
30 Sep 2003 11:01:12 PM |
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On 30 Sep 2003 13:35:36 -0700, (Chris Assaf)
cross posted to talk.atheism,alt.atheism,alt.flame.jesus.christ:
Well, there is always one who will take my articles (and that story) seriously.
Yourself? Your dear old mum? Your garden snail?
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| User: "Martin Thomas" |
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| Title: Re: Serious Questions for Atheists |
01 Oct 2003 12:20:31 PM |
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On 30 Sep 2003 13:35:36 -0700, (Chris Assaf)
wrote:
Well, there is always one who will take my articles (and that story) seriously.
But nobody will take that story very seriously, unless they have
never bothered to get to know any atheists.
-
Martin Thomas
mart666t@netscape.NO.HAWKERS.net
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| User: "Mark K. Bilbo" |
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| Title: Re: Serious Questions for Atheists |
30 Sep 2003 08:08:18 PM |
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On Tue, 30 Sep 2003 13:35:36 -0700, Chris Assaf wrote:
Well, there is always one who will take my articles (and that story) seriously.
Where?
--
Mark K. Bilbo
From alt.atheism only
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| User: "Martin Thomas" |
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| Title: Re: Serious Questions for Atheists |
01 Oct 2003 12:20:32 PM |
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On Tue, 30 Sep 2003 20:08:18 -0500, "Mark K. Bilbo"
<iskanipa-y@hoo.com> wrote:
On Tue, 30 Sep 2003 13:35:36 -0700, Chris Assaf wrote:
Well, there is always one who will take my articles (and that story) seriously.
Where?
Out there somewhere ...
[Points vaguely upwards]
:)
-
Martin Thomas
mart666t@netscape.NO.HAWKERS.net
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| User: "Denis Loubet" |
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| Title: Re: Serious Questions for Atheists |
28 Sep 2003 01:13:58 PM |
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"Chris Assaf" <cassaf2001@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:dbd0d335.0309280954.8568eaf@posting.google.com...
In order to be fair in the debate about matters of faith,
Fair? Since when does reality care about fair?
it's not
just the Christian who must be called to the witness stand.
They're the ones asserting something.
Even those
who dispute or who otherwise persist in voicing skepticism about
Christianity have some questions to answer. (snip)
One is not obligated to support the position "I don't believe you".
It's all up to the Christian to support his claims, the atheist isn't making
any.
Denis Loubet
dloubet@io.com
http://www.io.com/~dloubet
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| User: "Caleb The Profit" |
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| Title: Re: Serious Questions for Atheists |
28 Sep 2003 01:19:35 PM |
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"Chris Assaf" <cassaf2001@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:dbd0d335.0309280954.8568eaf@posting.google.com...
In order to be fair in the debate about matters of faith, it's not
just the Christian who must be called to the witness stand. Even those
who dispute or who otherwise persist in voicing skepticism about
Christianity have some questions to answer. In fact, considering the
evidence, it no doubt requires more faith to stand outside the circle
of those who believe than to join it.
You start your rant with the most absurd premise possible.
Faith is not required to realize the Israelites created the
Jehovah-spook-in-the-sky. Logic dictates the spook doesn't exist - nothing
to do with faith.
To paraphrase Leonard Cohen, "Take your Jesus and shove him up the hole in
your religion".
Caleb
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| User: "MarcRW" |
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| Title: Re: Serious Questions for Atheists |
28 Sep 2003 12:56:17 PM |
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"Chris Assaf" <cassaf2001@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:dbd0d335.0309280954.8568eaf@posting.google.com...
Chris never responds. Plonk.
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| User: "Woden" |
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| Title: Re: Serious Questions for Atheists |
28 Sep 2003 05:40:56 PM |
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(Chris Assaf) wrote in
news:dbd0d335.0309280954.8568eaf@posting.google.com:
In order to be fair in the debate about matters of faith, it's not
just the Christian who must be called to the witness stand. Even those
who dispute or who otherwise persist in voicing skepticism about
Christianity have some questions to answer. In fact, considering the
evidence, it no doubt requires more faith to stand outside the circle
of those who believe than to join it.
And we ask again. What evidence?
To ensure integrity, therefore,
on the part of even our readers who are not yet believers, here are a
few issues about which you too should be able to give an account.
How do you explain the high degree of design and order in the
universe?
What design & order?
How do you account for the vast archaeological documentation of
Biblical stories, places, and people?
How do you account for the archeological documentation of "The Illiad"?
How do you account for the complete lack of archeological and geological
and historical documentation for many of the (major) events in the bible,
the flood of Noah, the Exodus, the crucifiction of Jesus, ...?
Since absolutely no Bible prophecy has ever failed (and there are
hundreds), how can one realistically remain unconvinced that the Bible
is of Divine origin?
How many of these biblical prophecies were documented outside the bible
prior to their happening and then confirmed by non-biblical observers?
Explain David's graphic portrayal of Jesus' death by crucifixion
(Psalm 22) 1000 years previous to crucifixion being established as a
form of capital punishment?
Where in Psalm 22 does it mention crucifiction? Can you prove that the
writers of the gospels didn't just take the words from a Psalm that they
had previously read and then use them as part of their fictionalization?
How could any mere human pinpoint the birth town of the Messiah seven
full centuries before the fact, as did the prophet Micah?
How do you know that a messiah was born in any specific town?
Account for the odds (1 in 10 to the 157th power) that even just 48
(of 300) Old Testament prophecies were fulfilled in one person, i.e
Jesus.
How many of these prophecies were recorded by non-biblical sources and then
later confirmed to occur by sources other than the bible?
How was it possible for the Old Testament prophet Isaiah to have
predicted the virgin birth of Jesus (Isaiah 7:14) 700 years before it
occurred?
How is it possible for virgin to give birth? Are you aware that many bible
experts consider the word "virgin" in the story to be a mistranslation of
the word for "young girl"?
How can anyone doubt the reliability of Scripture considering the
number and proximity to originals of its many copied manuscripts?
How does the number of copies indicate the reliability of a document?
Are you able to live consistently with your present worldview?
Works for me.
Wouldn't it make better sense, even pragmatically, to live as though
the God of the Bible does exist than as though He doesn't?
Why would it make sense to live as though some mythical being was real?
(PS. #325860326822 in the series of variations of Pascal's Wager)
In what sense was Jesus a 'Good Man' if He was lying in His claim to
be God?
In what sense did Jesus actually live if there is no evidence other than
the fictional stories of the bible?
Do you think that Jesus was misguided in affirming the truthfulness of
Scripture, i.e. John 10:35, Matthew 24, Luke 24:44?
What does if matter if a fictional character affirms the truthfulness of
the work of fiction that contains his story?
If the Bible is not true, why is it so universally regarded as the
'Good Book'?
If the Qu'ran is not true why is it so universally regarded as the word of
god?
Are you aware that the Old Testament alone claims to be God's inspired
word at least 2600 times?
Are you aware that no matter how many times a ***** claim is made, it's
still *****?
Did you know that the Bible has been the number one best-seller every
year since the 1436 invention of the Gutenberg printing press?
And how many of those copies were actually read and understood by
their owners?
From whence comes humanity's universal moral sense?
Without gods, it seems to reason that it came from humanity. Got any
evidence to the contrary?
If man is nothing but the random arrangement of molecules, what
motivates you to care and to live honorably in the world?
Why do you think humans are a random arrangement of molecules?
Explain how personality could have ever evolved from the impersonal,
or how order could have ever resulted from chaos.
How could the order of snowflakes form from the chaos of water vapor?
If Jesus' resurrection was faked, why would twelve intelligent men
(Jesus' disciples) have died for what they knew to be a lie?
It was a good plot device for the story writer?
How do you explain the fact that a single, relatively uneducated and
virtually untraveled man, dead at age 33, radically changed lives and
society to this day?
Explain how a mythical figure in stories written almost 2000 years ago
can cause so many people to reject reason and rational thinking? Does the
word "belief" mean anything?
Why have so many of history's greatest thinkers been believers? Have
you ever wondered why thousands of intelligent scientists, living and
dead, have been men and women of great faith?
Why have so many of history's great thinkers been "non-xian"? Why are more
and more of these great thinkers rejecting religions and gods?
Isn't it somewhat arrogant to suggest that countless churches and
people (including men like Abraham Lincoln) are all radically in error
in their view of the Bible?
Isn't it somewhat arrogant to think that some being who could create the
universe cares about one little speck of humanity on one little planet in
one galaxy in the universe?
How do you account for the origin of life considering the irreducible
complexity of its essential components?
How do you account for the formation of new chemicals from natural
processes?
How can the Second Law of Thermodynamics be reconciled with
progressive, naturalistic evolutionary theory?
How can an eternal, non-changing god be reconciled with the 2LOT?
How do you reconcile the existence of human intelligence with
naturalism and the Law of Entropy?
How do you reconcile the lack of demonstratable human intelligence that
occurs along with belief in ancient myths and superstions?
Why does the Bible alone, of all of the world's 'holy' books, contain
such detailed prophecies of future events?
And how many of these "detailed" prophesies have occured? (not the generic
prophesies like wars & earthquakes &...)
How do you reconcile that the great prophesy of Jesus that he would return
within the lifetime of his followers never occured?
On what basis can the Bible (interpreted as per historic Christian
orthodoxy) be challenged as a sole, final truth-standard (Galatians
1:8)?
What standards of truth are in the bible?
Is it absolutely true that "truth is not absolute" or only relatively
true that "all things are relative?"
Define "truth"?
Is it possible that your unbelief in God is actually an unwillingness
to submit to Him?
Sorry, but I don't submit to fairytales?
Does your present worldview provide you with an adequate sense of
meaning and purpose?
It's up to me. Why does your sense of meaning and purpose depend on an
ancient mythical character?
How do you explain the radically changed lives of so many Christian
believers down through history?
How do you explain the radically changed lives of so many Islamic believers
through history?
Are you aware that every alleged Bible contradiction has been answered
in an intelligible and credible manner?
Not by you they haven't. All I've ever seen are rationalizations,
mistranslations, and wishful thinking.
What do you say about the hundreds of scholarly books that carefully
document the veracity and reliability of the Bible?
What can you say about the hundreds of scholarly books that carefully
document the veracity and reliability of the Qu'ran?
Why and how has the Bible survived and even flourished in spite of
centuries of worldwide attempts to destroy and ban its message?
What "worldwide" attempts to destroy or ban it?
Why isn't it absurd to try to speak or even conceive of a non-existent
'God' when an existing God would, by definition, be greater?
You can define your god anyway you want. But until you show evidence of
his existence, he remains no different from imaginary.
Have you ever considered the fact that Christianity is the only
religion whose leader is said to have risen from the dead?
How an you explain that Mithra is said to have risen from the dead?
How do you explain the empty tomb of Jesus in light of all the
evidence that has now proven essentially irrefutable for twenty
centuries?
How does a non-existent empty tomb prove anything?
If Jesus did not actually die and rise from the dead, how could He (in
His condition) have circumvented all of the security measures in place
at His tomb?
If Gandalf did not actually die and rise from the dead after his battle
with the Balrog, how could he have helped defeat Sauron?
If the authorities stole Jesus' body, why? Why would they have
perpetrated the very scenario that they most wanted to prevent?
What happens to a fictional body can be speculated about in many ways.
If Jesus merely resuscitated in the tomb, how did He deal with the
Roman guard posted just outside its entrance?
What makes you think there were real Roman guards around the tomb of a dead
fictional character?
How can one realistically discount the testimony of over 500 witnesses
to a living Jesus following His crucifixion (see 1 Corinthians 15:6)?
How many of these witnesses can be shown to have existed outside the
fictional story of the bible and recorded their experience independently?
If all of Jesus' claims to be God were the result of His own
self-delusion, why didn't He evidence lunacy in any other areas of His
life?
What makes you think that a person (god-man) who curses a fig tree for not
having fruit out of season is anything less than a lunatic?
If God is unchanging, wouldn't it be true that one who changes by
suddenly "realizing" that he/she is 'God' therefore isn't God?
What god?
Is your unbelief in a perfect God possibly the result of a bad
experience with an imperfect Church or a misunderstanding of the
facts, and therefore an unfair rejection of God Himself? >> Why should
I consider Christianity, if all Christians are hypocrites? / What kind
of world would you create? / How did bad things come about? / Why do
the innocent suffer? / Does God feel your pain? / Goodness of God / Is
God fair? / How can a God of love send anybody to Hell?
Isn't your belief in this mythical story possibly the result of a bad
experience learning to reason and use critical thinking during your
childhood indoctrination and brainwashing?
How did 35-40 men, spanning 1500 years and living on three separate
continents, ever manage to author one unified message, i.e. the Bible?
Can you list these 35-40 men, and provide some historical evidence of them?
Would you charge the Declaration of Independence with error in
affirming that "all men are endowed by their Creator..."?
Based on the writings and words of people like T. Jefferson, J. Madison, T.
Paine, what makes you think that their use of the term "creator" has
anything to do with your xian god-myth?
Because life origins are not observable, verifiable, or falsifiable,
how does historical 'science' amount to anything more than just
another faith system?
What evidence do you offer that counters or supercedes the scientific
evidence we have which doesn't show any gods?
What do you make of all the anthropological studies indicating that
even the most remote tribes show some sort of theological awareness?
What do make of myth and legend that travels from person to person through
stories, indoctrination, ritual, etc.?
Why subscribe to the incredible odds that the tilt and position of our
planet relative to the sun are merely coincidental?
Can you show that it didn't happen according to natural processes?
If every effect has a cause, and if God Himself is the universe (i.e.
is one with the universe, as some non-Christians suggest), what or who
then caused the universe?
If every effect has a cause, who or what caused your god?
What would be required to persuade you to become a believer?
If this all-powerful, all-knowing, loving god you believe in, exists, then
he should know and if he really wanted me to believe, he would do it. The
fact that he hasn't indicates that I have no reason to believe in him.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
(snip xian fantasy #44296538, which we have seen entirely too many times)
--
Woden
"religion is a socio-political institution for the control of
people's thoughts, lives, and actions; based on
ancient myths and superstitions perpetrated through
generations of subtle yet pervasive brainwashing."
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| User: "bluskie" |
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| Title: Re: Serious Questions for Atheists |
28 Sep 2003 05:19:18 PM |
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(Chris Assaf) wrote in message news:<dbd0d335.0309280954.8568eaf@posting.google.com>...
In order to be fair in the debate about **CHOP**
You're just another xian retard, no need to waist time responding.
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| User: "Kermit" |
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| Title: Re: Serious Questions for Atheists |
28 Sep 2003 10:54:18 PM |
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(Chris Assaf) wrote in message news:<dbd0d335.0309280954.8568eaf@posting.google.com>...
In order to be fair in the debate about matters of faith, it's not
just the Christian who must be called to the witness stand. Even those
who dispute or who otherwise persist in voicing skepticism about
Christianity have some questions to answer. In fact, considering the
evidence, it no doubt requires more faith to stand outside the circle
of those who believe than to join it. To ensure integrity, therefore,
on the part of even our readers who are not yet believers, here are a
few issues about which you too should be able to give an account.
How do you explain the high degree of design and order in the
universe?
Learn more about the universe / origin of life / origin of species
/ origin of mankind
A few simple rules produce complex order. How do you explain this
imaginary god of yours?
How do you account for the vast archaeological documentation of
Biblical stories, places, and people?
Reliability of the Bible - In what ways have archaeological
discoveries verified it? / Bible archaeology evidences
Umm... no. Jericho, for example, had fallen several centuries before
the time of Joshua. It was nothn but a couple of hundred huts and the
ruins of the far earlier wall.
Since absolutely no Bible prophecy has ever failed (and there are
hundreds), how can one realistically remain unconvinced that the Bible
is of Divine origin?
Read about fulfilled biblical prophecies...
And there shall be war and conflict, fire, and famine.
Hear me: this prophecy shall come to pass within the year. When it
happens, you shall know that the god of Abraham has fallen and been
replaced by Her Holiness, the Invisible Pink Unicorn.
In other words, the prophecies were either so general that eager
beavers like you would happily apply them to almost anything, or they
were somewhat more specific, but written *after the event, and
supposedly about an earlier "quote". Rather like Uri Geller or Jeane
Dixon, after an earthquake, saying "I predicted that last month!"
Explain David's graphic portrayal of Jesus' death by crucifixion
(Psalm 22) 1000 years previous to crucifixion being established as a
form of capital punishment?
I just looked that up. There was no mention of a crucifixion. Just a
righteous man, not recognized by the people in general. It could be
the Jesus of Legend, or Glileo, or Commander Worf.
BTW, my 16 YO says the progression of deities or supernatural
creatures goes thusly: first Religion, then Legend, then Mythology,
then fairy tales, then Saturday morning cartoons.
How could any mere human pinpoint the birth town of the Messiah seven
full centuries before the fact, as did the prophet Micah?
Easy, if the story of his birth is written 70 years later, you can
change things around to match any old Jewish prophecy you like. Good
grief.
Read the "God's Story" account of Micah describing the Messiah...
Account for the odds (1 in 10 to the 157th power) that even just 48
(of 300) Old Testament prophecies were fulfilled in one person, i.e
Jesus.
See above. But most are too vague to be useful.
Prophecies
How was it possible for the Old Testament prophet Isaiah to have
predicted the virgin birth of Jesus (Isaiah 7:14) 700 years before it
occurred?
Y'know; repeating one point over and over does not make it many
points. Prophecy. Right. Written *afterwards. Unless you have some
corroborating, contemporary evidence?
....I thought not.
Read the "God's Story" account of the prophets describing the
Savior / Is the virgin birth a myth?
How can anyone doubt the reliability of Scripture considering the
number and proximity to originals of its many copied manuscripts?
Read about the importance of the discovery of the Dead Sea Scrolls
/ Discovering the Bible videos explain the manuscript evidence and
much more
The earliest new Testment letters and books were written at *least a
generation after his death, probably more.
Are you able to live consistently with your present worldview?
Visit Summit Ministries for worldview comparisons...
The trith of the way things are doesn't really care whether I "Can
live with it" or not. Are you saying that you believe stuff *because
it gives you emotional satisfaction?
Wouldn't it make better sense, even pragmatically, to live as though
the God of the Bible does exist than as though He doesn't?
Hate gays, accept slavery, fight science, be fearful and guilty about
healthy behavior?
No.
In what sense was Jesus a 'Good Man' if He was lying in His claim to
be God?
Is Jesus Christ really God?...
Since he didn't write anything down, we don't know anything about him
except what Paul of Tarsus wrote or approved (or the like-minded
people who followed him).
Do you think that Jesus was misguided in affirming the truthfulness of
Scripture, i.e. John 10:35, Matthew 24, Luke 24:44?
Yes. Or, Paul lied about what he said. Or, you don't understand what
you read, or he didn't exist at all. <shrug>
Do you stay up at night wondering if the quotes attributed to Hermes
Trismisgistes are accurate? Neither do I.
If the Bible is not true, why is it so universally regarded as the
'Good Book'?
How can I know if the Bible is true?... / Is the Bible truth or
tabloid? / Can the Bible be infallible if it is written by fallible
humans?
Except by the Jews, who do not accept *your bible or even your
interpretation of the Pentateuch. Nor do the Muslims. Remember them?
Nor the Hindus. Or Druse. Or Buddhists. Or Shintoists. Or animists. Or
neo-pagans. Or those people from so many cultures around the world who
follow the beliefs and practices of their people.
Are you aware that the Old Testament alone claims to be God's inspired
word at least 2600 times?
Oh! I didn't realize they made that claim so many times! I thought it
only claimed that a few huindred times! You must be right!
Did you know that the Bible has been the number one best-seller every
year since the 1436 invention of the Gutenberg printing press?
The Bible -- an amazing book...
So? Are you saying that truth is a democratic or consensual decision?
What if we all decide to get nekkid and howl at the moon? What if the
bible drops to number two? Would you stop believing?
From whence comes humanity's universal moral sense?
Apes that don't treat others in their band right are less likely to
have little apes. Despite your belief that humans are essntially
depraved, we were selected by natural to be moral. We are *predisposed
to learn proper behavior, just like we do language. And just like
language, some of us are more talented than others, and some are
taught better than others.
And let me tell you, I was raised a fundamentalist, and this message
from birth is crippling. If I succeeded at anything (talent of some
sort, or good grades on a test), I was told to "Thank Jesus"! But if I
goofed up, it was my fault, and should beg forgivness ("I'm sorry God
I ate that cookie before dinner...").
It's a wonder that not *all of the fundamentalists are in jail.
If man is nothing but the random arrangement of molecules, what
motivates you to care and to live honorably in the world?
We are not random. Our body (including our mind) are following a
complex dance of physics and chemistry, organized by natural
selection. What goofball told you it was random? Surely no *scientist.
But you're going to say it again, aren't you?
Explain how personality could have ever evolved from the impersonal,
or how order could have ever resulted from chaos.
This is how the universe is. We understand some of it, and are
leearning more rapidly. Stick around and pay attention.
If Jesus' resurrection was faked, why would twelve intelligent men
(Jesus' disciples) have died for what they knew to be a lie?
Is the resurrection a myth?...
? I Osiris's resurrection wasn't true, why would millions of Egyptians
have worshipped Him thru the millenia?
How do you explain the fact that a single, relatively uneducated and
virtually untraveled man, dead at age 33, radically changed lives and
society to this day?
Learn more about Jesus' life, death and resurrection...
Paul wan't uneducated.
Why have so many of history's greatest thinkers been believers?
Because the ones who weren't were killed. Times change, though, and
after Galileo, Europe's greatest thinkers just moved North.
Have
you ever wondered why thousands of intelligent scientists, living and
dead, have been men and women of great faith?
Why would you characterize Newton as a man of "Great" faith? Was
Leonardo? I hear he was gay, and he was probably an atheist, although
he would never have written that down. Galileo wasn't of *great faith
- if he had any at all. So what? Newton believed in astrology, too,
but that doesn't mean his contributions to math and physics weren't
real.
Do real scientists believe in Creation? / Is the Bible completely
accurate, or does it contain some inaccuracies about history and
science?
Isn't it somewhat arrogant to suggest that countless churches and
people (including men like Abraham Lincoln) are all radically in error
in their view of the Bible?
Ahem. As much as I admire Honest Abe, it wasn't biology or physics in
which he made his mark. I would not use an expert in biology, or law,
or music to justify any religious opinions. I might listen to a
philospher, though. Come back when you can tell me where Russel went
wrong.
I highly recommend "Why I am Not a Christian", by Bertrand Russel.
How do you account for the origin of life considering the irreducible
complexity of its essential components?
Learn more about the origin of life...
Please first establish that "Irreducible Complexity" is real, or
useful as a concept.
How can the Second Law of Thermodynamics be reconciled with
progressive, naturalistic evolutionary theory?
Second Law of Thermodynamics - Does this basic law of nature
prevent Evolution?...
Oh... <sputter>
This is just plain stupid. Read the FAQ.
To answer it on your level: the Earth is not a closed system. There's
a bright shiny light up in the sky, during the day anyway, providing
light and other energy to this not-very isolated system called Earth.
How do you reconcile the existence of human intelligence with
naturalism and the Law of Entropy?
Surely the bizarre misunderstanding implied by these Creationist
references ahve been answered many time before. Read the FAQ.
Why does the Bible alone, of all of the world's 'holy' books, contain
such detailed prophecies of future events?
Learn more about the Bible...
No, it doesn't. None of them do, actually, except in the most general
way.
On what basis can the Bible (interpreted as per historic Christian
orthodoxy) be challenged as a sole, final truth-standard (Galatians
1:8)?
Got any evidence?
Is it absolutely true that "truth is not absolute" or only relatively
true that "all things are relative?"
The Loss of Truth -- Are we living in a moral stone age?...
Are you asking
"How pretty is that girl?"
or are you asking
"How much is two plus two?"
Why do you think the truth of *either of these types of questions
depends on moral behavior, or what you want?
This is preperation for the fallacy of Equivocation.
Is it possible that your unbelief in God is actually an unwillingness
to submit to Him?
God's plan
Nope. When I was a kid, I knew all the saints by their first names. I
studied the Baghavad Gita, the Upanishads, the Koran, the Bardo
Thodal, the Egyptian Book of the Dead, various oral traditions, and
practiced Zen Buddhism for years. I learned Greek in college (well, I
learned enough to translate with a dictionary at hand) so I could read
your bible in the orginal. Got my degree inphilosphy.
It's still hogwash, son. Sorry. I do not normally walk up to people
and say: you're nver gonna see your dearly departed agin; you are
going to die and stay dead. There is no meaning ot your life except
what *you make of it. i don't do that; I'm not mean.
But I will not be mugged, either. You come here, pretending you want
a debate. You don't; you don't know the answers to your own questions,
and you're too afraid (some faith!) to admit it. But for the sake of
lurkers, some young fundy perhaps, like I was, I answer you.
Does your present worldview provide you with an adequate sense of
meaning and purpose?
Mine does. But what does that have to do with how things are? Once
again, you reveal that you believe these things because you really,
really want them to be true.
Some of us are more committed to the truth than you are. Pretty much
everyong in the newsgroups you posted to, in fact.
How do you explain the radically changed lives of so many Christian
believers down through history?
Or the radically changed lives of people who gave birth. or who went
to college. Or who were raped. Or who joined the Army. Or who "dumped
that creep and took up exercise and gave up cigarettes and finally got
her act together". Or who was crippled in a car accident. Or who got
drunk for the first time, and kept drinking. Or who, 20 years later,
stopped drinking.
What's your point?
Are you aware that every alleged Bible contradiction has been answered
in an intelligible and credible manner?
More about Bible contradictions...
No they weren't.
What do you say about the hundreds of scholarly books that carefully
document the veracity and reliability of the Bible?
Bad scholarship. There are numerous good ones that come to other
conclusions. and plenty in other traditions.
Why and how has the Bible survived and even flourished in spite of
centuries of worldwide attempts to destroy and ban its message?
Recommended resource: The Indestructible Book (video)...
Oh, a video. Do you know that Buddhism was 500 years old before Joshua
ben Yahweh was born?
Why isn't it absurd to try to speak or even conceive of a non-existent
'God' when an existing God would, by definition, be greater?
Oh yeah? The Invisble Pink Unicorn is even *greater!
Or, since you guys are traditionally weak with metaphors, similes, and
the like:
"Saying it don't make it so".
Have you ever considered the fact that Christianity is the only
religion whose leader is said to have risen from the dead?
Is Christianity really unique among world religions?...
No it's not.
How do you explain the empty tomb of Jesus in light of all the
evidence that has now proven essentially irrefutable for twenty
centuries?
Is the resurrection a myth? / Did Christ really rise from the dead?
/ Were the witnesses hallucinating?
How do you explain Krishna making love to one hundred milk maids at
the same time? Now that's *my kind of god! (nudge, nudge, wink, wink)
If Jesus did not actually die and rise from the dead, how could He (in
His condition) have circumvented all of the security measures in place
at His tomb?
Did Jesus really die? / How did Jesus die? / What is crucifixion?
You don't have anything but circumstantial evidence that he actually
*lived.
No corroboration at *all except a forged passage in Josephus and books
written by cultists 50 years later.
Pardon me if I remain underwhelmed.
<snip variations of this:>
How can one realistically discount the testimony of over 500 witnesses
to a living Jesus following His crucifixion (see 1 Corinthians 15:6)?
Maybe the witnesses were just seeing things?...
Produce these 500 witnesses. Oh wait; you only have one cultist's
*letter that 500 hundred people saw it.
If all of Jesus' claims to be God were the result of His own
self-delusion, why didn't He evidence lunacy in any other areas of His
life?
Is Jesus Christ's character consistent with his high claims?...
Like David Koresh?
Like the Rev. Sun Myung Moon?
Like the Maharishi Mahesh Yogi?
If God is unchanging, wouldn't it be true that one who changes by
suddenly "realizing" that he/she is 'God' therefore isn't God?
The Hindus believe that we are all God, playing hide and go seek with
ourselves. Our job in life is to realize this. Alan Watts said that
Christian fundamentalists are playing this better than anyone else,
because they are hiding so well...
Is your unbelief in a perfect God possibly the result of a bad
experience with an imperfect Church or a misunderstanding of the
facts, and therefore an unfair rejection of God Himself? >> Why should
I consider Christianity, if all Christians are hypocrites? / What kind
of world would you create? / How did bad things come about? / Why do
the innocent suffer? / Does God feel your pain? / Goodness of God / Is
God fair? / How can a God of love send anybody to Hell?
My unbelief in Yahweh is exactly the same as my unbelief in Wodin, or
Zeus, or Saurn, or Kokapelli, or Kwan Yin, or Coyote. Except I can't
swing a dead cat without hitting a Yahweh cultist.
How did 35-40 men, spanning 1500 years and living on three separate
continents, ever manage to author one unified message, i.e. the Bible?
Can the Bible be infallible if it is written by fallible humans? /
More about the congruency of the Bible / The Discovering the Bible
videos explain the amazing authorship of the Bible and many other
evidences
Oh, pooh. Every now and then, someone in power said "Let's add this
book". Who chose the books in your Christian bible - do you even know?
Do you know their pruported reasoning for their choices. do you know
which books have been written but rejected? Have you, f'rinstance,
read the "Gosple of Thomas"?
Would you charge the Declaration of Independence with error in
affirming that "all men are endowed by their Creator..."?
I heard a man at the bus stop, standing in the rain, say "Mother
Nature is mad at us today". Do you suppose he was a pagan?
Because life origins are not observable, verifiable, or falsifiable,
how does historical 'science' amount to anything more than just
another faith system?
Why don't you take a damn science course and find out? *anything in
science can be replicated - either procedure or observation.
What is the nature of science and scientists? / Frequently asked
questions on the Origin of Life
What do you make of all the anthropological studies indicating that
even the most remote tribes show some sort of theological awareness?
Jane Goodall has seen chimp behavior that she thinks *might be
religious. heh. maybe all apes ahve a theological fantasy.
You probably have a craving for sweets now and then, do you think this
is good for you? In paleolithic times, this would have led you to
climb a tree, or brave the stickers, and eat some fruit. Times change.
Now we stop at Krispy Kreme and eat garbage. What had a reproductive
advantage at one time may be killing us now.
Why subscribe to the incredible odds that the tilt and position of our
planet relative to the sun are merely coincidental?
Consider: Was there a big bang?...
<Must... grit... teeth...>
Idiot. Sorry, I just couldn't hold that back anymore.
First, the tilt of the planet would have relatively minor effects on
life as a whole, if that's what you're getting at. Child, if most
planets are unsuitable for life, then there would not be any life on
those planets ot evolve. It's only on those one in a hundred, or one
in a million planets that have the right conditions which could
produce life, allowing the evolution of a species dumb enough to ask
this question.
Natural selection. Animals and planets are *adapted to their
environment. Sheesh.
If every effect has a cause, and if God Himself is the universe (i.e.
is one with the universe, as some non-Christians suggest), what or who
then caused the universe?
We don't know that causality applies to the universe as a whole.
See our Creation SuperLibrary for answer about
Creation/Evolution...
What would be required to persuade you to become a believer?
Evidence.
Got any?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
A college student attended a philosophy class which held a discussion
about God's existence. The professor presented the following logic:
"Has anyone in this class ever heard God?" No one spoke. "Has anyone
in this class ever touched God?" Again, no one spoke. "Has anyone in
this class ever seen God?" When no one spoke for the third time, he
said, "Then there is no God."
One student thought for a second and then asked for permission to
reply. Curious to hear this bold student's response, the professor
agreed. The student stood up and asked the following: "Has anyone in
this class ever heard our professor's brain?" Silence. "Has anyone in
this class ever touched our professor's brain?" Absolute silence. "Has
anyone in this class ever seen our professor's brain?" When no one in
the class dared to speak, the student concluded, "Then, according to
our professor's logic, it must be true that our professor has no
brain!"
The student received an 'A' in the class.
Doubtful. My philosphy teachers would have pointed out that we have
seen inside plenty of people's heads, including surgery and X-rays,
and functioning or formerly functioning human beings *always have
brains. It is a perfectly reasonable to assume that we all do.
My best professor would have flunked you. Not because you are a
theist, but because you ask silly question, and don't hang around for
a dialog. The philosopher is one who loves wisdom (philo + sophia),
not the one who presents a bad argument and runs; not even the one who
wins arguments. He/she is the one who would do anything - even die -
to learn the truth.
If you are not willing to accept the possibility that you will die
forever, then your mind shies away from any train of thought that
leads down that path. You are not a seeker of truth, but rather a
seeker of reassurances, of familiarity and comfort.
As annoying as you are, I pity you.
--- Kermit
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| User: "George Dance" |
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| Title: Re: Serious Questions for Atheists |
30 Sep 2003 01:45:18 PM |
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(Chris Assaf) wrote in message news:<dbd0d335.0309280954.8568eaf@posting.google.com>...
In order to be fair in the debate about matters of faith, it's not
just the Christian who must be called to the witness stand. Even those
who dispute or who otherwise persist in voicing skepticism about
Christianity have some questions to answer. In fact, considering the
evidence, it no doubt requires more faith to stand outside the circle
of those who believe than to join it. To ensure integrity, therefore,
on the part of even our readers who are not yet believers, here are a
few issues about which you too should be able to give an account.
That is fair. It's not all that fair for you to not stick around to
hear the answers, of course; but it would still be worthwhile to come
up with some answers for you, for the sake of others who may read this
later.
How do you explain the high degree of design and order in the
universe?
Learn more about the universe / origin of life / origin of species
/ origin of mankind
The universe is a complex system; and every complex system has an
order (which is simply how all its components go together). If
there's an order, one would expect there to be some evidence of that
order. Evidence of order is not, by itself, evidence of design; the
English language has an order, for instance, although it was not
designed.
How do you account for the vast archaeological documentation of
Biblical stories, places, and people?
Reliability of the Bible - In what ways have archaeological
discoveries verified it? / Bible archaeology evidences
It was written by people who lived in the area at the time; so one
would expect it to refer to places that were really there. However,
in many cases, the evidence does not confirm the stories; the
excavations at Jericho, for instance, indicate the town was abandoned
long before time the bible gives for athe story of joshua.
Since absolutely no Bible prophecy has ever failed (and there are
hundreds), how can one realistically remain unconvinced that the Bible
is of Divine origin?
Read about fulfilled biblical prophecies...
Because prophecies are not the same as predictions - they usually come
without specific dates, for example - and therefore are not testable.
So if it's merely that no Bible prophecies have failed because none
have been tested, that is no reason to believe any of them were of
Divine origin.
Explain David's graphic portrayal of Jesus' death by crucifixion
(Psalm 22) 1000 years previous to crucifixion being established as a
form of capital punishment?
Psalm 22 says nothing about crucifixion.
How could any mere human pinpoint the birth town of the Messiah seven
full centuries before the fact, as did the prophet Micah?
Read the "God's Story" account of Micah describing the Messiah...
Typology; those writing the NT were familiar with the OT, and
(perhaps) more concerned with making Jesus a 'type' than with giving
an accurate account.
Account for the odds (1 in 10 to the 157th power) that even just 48
(of 300) Old Testament prophecies were fulfilled in one person, i.e
Jesus.
Prophecies
The same, to the extreme. It's all reason to doubt the accuracy of
the alleged biographers.
How was it possible for the Old Testament prophet Isaiah to have
predicted the virgin birth of Jesus (Isaiah 7:14) 700 years before it
occurred?
Read the "God's Story" account of the prophets describing the
Savior / Is the virgin birth a myth?
Later interpretation of 'young woman' as 'virgin,' and typology,
again.
How can anyone doubt the reliability of Scripture considering the
number and proximity to originals of its many copied manuscripts?
Read about the importance of the discovery of the Dead Sea Scrolls
/ Discovering the Bible videos explain the manuscript evidence and
much more
Monolithic control of what copies were made, most likely.
Are you able to live consistently with your present worldview?
Visit Summit Ministries for worldview comparisons...
Yes.
Wouldn't it make better sense, even pragmatically, to live as though
the God of the Bible does exist than as though He doesn't?
No; as that would dictate that one should live as this God commands,
which means (among other things) living as both a Mormon and a
Catholic; which is not very feasible.
In what sense was Jesus a 'Good Man' if He was lying in His claim to
be God?
Is Jesus Christ really God?...
I don't recall him actually claiming to be god; cite? IIRC, he did
tell others to not say any such thing.
Do you think that Jesus was misguided in affirming the truthfulness of
Scripture, i.e. John 10:35, Matthew 24, Luke 24:44?
Not necessarily, but certainly hypocrictical; as he violated
scriptural teachings when it suited him, such as the ones around
healing and gathering food on the Sabbath.
If the Bible is not true, why is it so universally regarded as the
'Good Book'?
How can I know if the Bible is true?... / Is the Bible truth or
tabloid? / Can the Bible be infallible if it is written by fallible
humans?
It's not universal (billions of Indians and Chinese don't think of it
as that, eg), so it's a misleading question.
Are you aware that the Old Testament alone claims to be God's inspired
word at least 2600 times?
No, but I'm not surprised; that's called self-serving testimony, and
it's quite common. (I'm sure Bob White has called his own dogmas
'reasonable' as many times, eg).
Did you know that the Bible has been the number one best-seller every
year since the 1436 invention of the Gutenberg printing press?
The Bible -- an amazing book...
Yes.
From whence comes humanity's universal moral sense?
Every man without exception has to act; meaning that every man,
without exception has to value; that's tautological.
If man is nothing but the random arrangement of molecules, what
motivates you to care and to live honorably in the world?
The same thing that motivates you to believe a book, when it is
certainly a random arrangement of molecules.
Explain how personality could have ever evolved from the impersonal,
or how order could have ever resulted from chaos.
That requires a more detailed answer than I can give you here. I'd
refer you to Peter Berger's explanation in /The Sacred Canopy/. An
abbreviated version would be: Humans, unlike other animals, are not
fully programmed for survival at birth; some of their programming is
done afterwards, with their conscious participation.
If Jesus' resurrection was faked, why would twelve intelligent men
(Jesus' disciples) have died for what they knew to be a lie?
Is the resurrection a myth?...
But they didn't all die for that. Peter, for example, got to be Pope.
How do you explain the fact that a single, relatively uneducated and
virtually untraveled man, dead at age 33, radically changed lives and
society to this day?
Learn more about Jesus' life, death and resurrection...
People with better education and connections used him after he was
dead and could not contradict him. Sort of the same as with Marx,
though he lived longer.
Why have so many of history's greatest thinkers been believers? Have
you ever wondered why thousands of intelligent scientists, living and
dead, have been men and women of great faith?
Do real scientists believe in Creation? / Is the Bible completely
accurate, or does it contain some inaccuracies about history and
science?
So many of those were Europeans; and Europe was a Christian theocracy
for more than 1000 years, up until 200 or so years ago.
Isn't it somewhat arrogant to suggest that countless churches and
people (including men like Abraham Lincoln) are all radically in error
in their view of the Bible?
Well, yes; men can err. Lincoln, eg, was in error even about things
he should have known about, such as the Second Amendment.
And that's really all I have time for today. Maybe we'll cover the
rest tomorrow.
snip
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| User: "Skip Freeman" |
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| Title: Re: Serious Questions for Atheists |
02 Oct 2003 01:24:27 PM |
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(Chris Assaf) wrote in message news:<dbd0d335.0309280954.8568eaf@posting.google.com>...
Well, I'm not really an atheist, but I'll give this a shot...
How do you explain the high degree of design and order in the
universe?
"High degree of design"? If we are all so designed so well then what's
with that brown (usually), smelly (always) stuff we generate (once
every two days by me)?
How do you account for the vast archaeological documentation of
Biblical stories, places, and people?
Some of the stories in the Bible are factual in nature.
Since absolutely no Bible prophecy has ever failed (and there are
hundreds), how can one realistically remain unconvinced that the Bible
is of Divine origin?
Many Bible prophecies have failed.
Explain David's graphic portrayal of Jesus' death by crucifixion
(Psalm 22) 1000 years previous to crucifixion being established as a
form of capital punishment?
Those Romans were some well-read dudes, I'm telling you.
How could any mere human pinpoint the birth town of the Messiah seven
full centuries before the fact, as did the prophet Micah?
Many "prophets" attempted to predict the birth place of the Messiah
but most were wrong. The fact that one guy got lucky and guessed right
proves nothing...except that he got published and that the others did
not.
How was it possible for the Old Testament prophet Isaiah to have
predicted the virgin birth of Jesus (Isaiah 7:14) 700 years before it
occurred?
Virgin birth? What virgin birth?
How can anyone doubt the reliability of Scripture considering the
number and proximity to originals of its many copied manuscripts?
Whether or not a text is reliable has nothing to do with how well it
has been transcribed over the years.
Are you able to live consistently with your present worldview?
Sure.
Wouldn't it make better sense, even pragmatically, to live as though
the God of the Bible does exist than as though He doesn't?
Nah.
In what sense was Jesus a 'Good Man' if He was lying in His claim to
be God?
A damn crazy good man.
Do you think that Jesus was misguided in affirming the truthfulness of
Scripture, i.e. John 10:35, Matthew 24, Luke 24:44?
Misguided by who, exactly?
If the Bible is not true, why is it so universally regarded as the
'Good Book'?
Maybe because people like you keep calling it that?
Are you aware that the Old Testament alone claims to be God's inspired
word at least 2600 times?
Why so many times?
Did you know that the Bible has been the number one best-seller every
year since the 1436 invention of the Gutenberg printing press?
No, I didn't know that.
How do you explain the fact that a single, relatively uneducated and
virtually untraveled man, dead at age 33, radically changed lives and
society to this day?
Oh, come on. Everyone knows Shakespeare didn't write those plays.
-Skip
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| User: "Claytons So Vain...I Probably Think This Newsgroups About Me" |
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| Title: Re: Serious Questions for Atheists |
02 Oct 2003 08:24:35 PM |
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"Skip Freeman" <skip@cutey.com> wrote in message
news:178e088.0310021024.27c6e646@posting.google.com...
cassaf2001@yahoo.com (Chris Assaf) wrote in message
news:<dbd0d335.0309280954.8568eaf@posting.google.com>...
Well, I'm not really an atheist, but I'll give this a shot...
How do you explain the high degree of design and order in the
universe?
"High degree of design"? If we are all so designed so well then what's
with that brown (usually), smelly (always) stuff we generate (once
every two days by me)?
-Skip
Dude...you need more fibre!
I myself go every morning at exactly 7 am. Unfortunately I don't get up
till 8:30 am, so it can be quite unpleasant.
*just thought I'd dust off an old joke for nostalgia*
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| User: "stoney" |
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| Title: Re: Serious Questions for Atheists |
20 Oct 2003 07:19:47 PM |
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On Fri, 3 Oct 2003 11:24:35 +1000, "Clayton's So Vain...I Probably Think
This Newsgroup's About Me" <cjfat@SPAMBLOCKoptusnet.com.au>, Message ID:
<3f7ccfce$0$28120$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au> wrote in alt.atheism;
"Skip Freeman" <skip@cutey.com> wrote in message
news:178e088.0310021024.27c6e646@posting.google.com...
cassaf2001@yahoo.com (Chris Assaf) wrote in message
news:<dbd0d335.0309280954.8568eaf@posting.google.com>...
Well, I'm not really an atheist, but I'll give this a shot...
How do you explain the high degree of design and order in the
universe?
"High degree of design"? If we are all so designed so well then what's
with that brown (usually), smelly (always) stuff we generate (once
every two days by me)?
-Skip
Dude...you need more fibre!
I myself go every morning at exactly 7 am. Unfortunately I don't get up
till 8:30 am, so it can be quite unpleasant.
***** happens......
*just thought I'd dust off an old joke for nostalgia*
Stoney
"Designated Rascal and Rapscallion
and
SCAMPERMEISTER!"
When in doubt, SCAMPER about!
When things are fair, SCAMPER everywhere!
When things are rough, can't SCAMPER enough!
/end humour alert
alt.atheism military veteran #11
{so much for the 'no atheists in foxholes' rubbish}
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| User: "bob young" |
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| Title: Re: Serious Questions for Atheists |
20 Oct 2003 07:43:20 PM |
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stoney wrote:
On Fri, 3 Oct 2003 11:24:35 +1000, "Clayton's So Vain...I Probably Think
This Newsgroup's About Me" <cjfat@SPAMBLOCKoptusnet.com.au>, Message ID:
<3f7ccfce$0$28120$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au> wrote in alt.atheism;
"Skip Freeman" <skip@cutey.com> wrote in message
news:178e088.0310021024.27c6e646@posting.google.com...
cassaf2001@yahoo.com (Chris Assaf) wrote in message
news:<dbd0d335.0309280954.8568eaf@posting.google.com>...
Well, I'm not really an atheist, but I'll give this a shot...
How do you explain the high degree of design and order in the
universe?
"High degree of design"? If we are all so designed so well then what's
with that brown (usually), smelly (always) stuff we generate (once
every two days by me)?
-Skip
Dude...you need more fibre!
I myself go every morning at exactly 7 am. Unfortunately I don't get up
till 8:30 am, so it can be quite unpleasant.
***** happens......
*just thought I'd dust off an old joke for nostalgia*
Exit Ryan, tail between his legs........
Stoney
"Designated Rascal and Rapscallion
and
SCAMPERMEISTER!"
When in doubt, SCAMPER about!
When things are fair, SCAMPER everywhere!
When things are rough, can't SCAMPER enough!
/end humour alert
alt.atheism military veteran #11
{so much for the 'no atheists in foxholes' rubbish}
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| User: "stoney" |
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| Title: Re: Serious Questions for Atheists |
21 Oct 2003 11:37:18 AM |
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On 20 Oct 2003 19:43:20 -0500, bob young <alaspectrum@netvigator.com>,
Message ID: <3F948084.E818ECED@netvigator.com> wrote in alt.atheism;
stoney wrote:
On Fri, 3 Oct 2003 11:24:35 +1000, "Clayton's So Vain...I Probably Think
This Newsgroup's About Me" <cjfat@SPAMBLOCKoptusnet.com.au>, Message ID:
<3f7ccfce$0$28120$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au> wrote in alt.atheism;
"Skip Freeman" <skip@cutey.com> wrote in message
news:178e088.0310021024.27c6e646@posting.google.com...
cassaf2001@yahoo.com (Chris Assaf) wrote in message
news:<dbd0d335.0309280954.8568eaf@posting.google.com>...
Well, I'm not really an atheist, but I'll give this a shot...
How do you explain the high degree of design and order in the
universe?
"High degree of design"? If we are all so designed so well then what's
with that brown (usually), smelly (always) stuff we generate (once
every two days by me)?
-Skip
Dude...you need more fibre!
I myself go every morning at exactly 7 am. Unfortunately I don't get up
till 8:30 am, so it can be quite unpleasant.
***** happens......
*just thought I'd dust off an old joke for nostalgia*
Exit Ryan, tail between his legs........
He hasn't that much integrity.
Stoney
"Designated Rascal and Rapscallion
and
SCAMPERMEISTER!"
When in doubt, SCAMPER about!
When things are fair, SCAMPER everywhere!
When things are rough, can't SCAMPER enough!
/end humour alert
alt.atheism military veteran #11
{so much for the 'no atheists in foxholes' rubbish}
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| User: "Ryan" |
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| Title: Re: Serious Questions for Atheists |
19 Oct 2003 10:38:56 PM |
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How do you explain the fact that a single, relatively uneducated and
virtually untraveled man, dead at age 33, radically changed lives and
society to this day?
Oh, come on. Everyone knows Shakespeare didn't write those plays.
Shakespeare was married. and died much older than 33
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| User: "stoney" |
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| Title: Re: Serious Questions for Atheists |
20 Oct 2003 07:20:28 PM |
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On Sun, 19 Oct 2003 20:38:56 -0700, "Ryan" <Ryan@NoSpam.net>, Message
ID: <jOIkb.98307$gv5.48875@fed1read05> wrote in alt.atheism;
How do you explain the fact that a single, relatively uneducated and
virtually untraveled man, dead at age 33, radically changed lives and
society to this day?
Oh, come on. Everyone knows Shakespeare didn't write those plays.
Shakespeare was married. and died much older than 33
The sonic boom is the point flying over Ryan's head.
Stoney
"Designated Rascal and Rapscallion
and
SCAMPERMEISTER!"
When in doubt, SCAMPER about!
When things are fair, SCAMPER everywhere!
When things are rough, can't SCAMPER enough!
/end humour alert
alt.atheism military veteran #11
{so much for the 'no atheists in foxholes' rubbish}
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| User: "Ryan" |
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| Title: Re: Serious Questions for Atheists |
20 Oct 2003 11:14:44 PM |
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"stoney" <stoney@the.net> wrote in message
news:otu8pv8n2691bq67j6ltcdk3p11hnapu8a@4ax.com...
On Sun, 19 Oct 2003 20:38:56 -0700, "Ryan" <Ryan@NoSpam.net>, Message
ID: <jOIkb.98307$gv5.48875@fed1read05> wrote in alt.atheism;
How do you explain the fact that a single, relatively uneducated and
virtually untraveled man, dead at age 33, radically changed lives and
society to this day?
Oh, come on. Everyone knows Shakespeare didn't write those plays.
Shakespeare was married. and died much older than 33
The sonic boom is the point flying over Ryan's head.
I was simply pointing out an error in your joke. I realize that whether or
not Shakespeare fit the description is not toe point. but I do suggest that
before you make a joke, you at lease know something about the person you are
joking about.
In this case. about Jesus as well as Shakespeare
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| User: "stoney" |
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| Title: Re: Serious Questions for Atheists |
21 Oct 2003 11:38:15 AM |
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On Mon, 20 Oct 2003 21:14:44 -0700, "Ryan" <Ryan@NoSpam.net>, Message
ID: <Uo2lb.102226$gv5.96102@fed1read05> wrote in alt.atheism;
"stoney" <stoney@the.net> wrote in message
news:otu8pv8n2691bq67j6ltcdk3p11hnapu8a@4ax.com...
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