| Topic: |
Religions > Atheism |
| User: |
"Bill Case" |
| Date: |
18 Aug 2004 03:20:36 PM |
| Object: |
Shame on the Swift Boat Veterans for Bush BY JIM RASSMAN, |
The people, like Hines, who support Bush's slanders on John Kerry's war
service, are not just doing something dishonorable in the context of an
election.
They are also damaging the US military. Slander campaigns like this sink
into the culture and social practices of a country. This one will have its
affect on the comradeship that young troops and officers feel for each other
in the years ahead - always wondering who might turn one on another sometime
in the future, and for what reasons. Perhaps at the behest of weak corrupt
men trying to cut others down to their size. That's toxic.
Following is a Wall St Jl editorial by JIM RASSMANN, the Special Forces man
who's life was saved by Kerry in Vietnam.
Read on...
Shame on the Swift Boat Veterans for Bush
John Kerry saved my life. Now his heroism is being questioned.
BY JIM RASSMANN
Tuesday, August 10, 2004 12:01 a.m. EDT
I came to know Lt. John Kerry during the spring of 1969. He and his swift
boat crew assisted in inserting our Special Forces team and our Chinese Nung
soldiers into operational sites in the Cau Mau Peninsula of South Vietnam. I
worked with him on many operations and saw firsthand his leadership, courage
and decision-making ability under fire.
On March 13, 1969, John Kerry's courage and leadership saved my life.
While returning from a SEA LORDS operation along the Bay Hap River, a mine
detonated under another swift boat. Machine-gun fire erupted from both banks
of the river, and a second explosion followed moments later. The second
blast blew me off John's swift boat, PCF-94, throwing me into the river.
Fearing that the other boats would run me over, I swam to the bottom of the
river and stayed there as long as I could hold my breath.
When I surfaced, all the swift boats had left, and I was alone taking fire
from both banks. To avoid the incoming fire, I repeatedly swam under water
as long as I could hold my breath, attempting to make it to the north bank
of the river. I thought I would die right there. The odds were against me
avoiding the incoming fire and, even if I made it out of the river, I
thought I'd be captured and executed. Kerry must have seen me in the water
and directed his driver, Del Sandusky, to turn the boat around. Kerry's boat
ran up to me in the water, bow on, and I was able to climb up a cargo net to
the lip of the deck. But, because I was nearly upside down, I couldn't make
it over the edge of the deck. This left me hanging out in the open, a
perfect target. John, already wounded by the explosion that threw me off his
boat, came out onto the bow, exposing himself to the fire directed at us
from the jungle, and pulled me aboard.
For his actions that day, I recommended John for the Silver Star, our
country's third highest award for bravery under fire. I learned only this
past January that the Navy awarded John the Bronze Star with Combat V for
his valor. The citation for this award, signed by the Commander of U.S.
Naval Forces, Vietnam, Vice Admiral Elmo Zumwalt, read, "Lieutenant (junior
grade) Kerry's calmness, professionalism and great personal courage under
fire were in keeping with the highest traditions of the United States Naval
Service." To this day I am grateful to John Kerry for saving my life. And to
this day I still believe that he deserved the Silver Star for his courage.
It has been many years since I served in Vietnam. I returned home, got
married, and spent many years as a deputy sheriff for Los Angeles County. I
retired in 1989 as a lieutenant. It has been a long time since I left
Vietnam, but I think often of the men who did not come home with us.
I am neither a politician nor an organizer. I am a retired police officer
with a passion for orchids. Until January of this year, the only public
presentations I made were about my orchid hobby. But in this presidential
election, I had to speak out; I had to tell the American people about John
Kerry, about his wisdom and courage, about his vision and leadership. I
would trust John Kerry with my life, and I would entrust John Kerry with the
well-being of our country.
Nobody asked me to join John's campaign. Why would they? I am a Republican,
and for more than 30 years I have largely voted for Republicans. I
volunteered for his campaign because I have seen John Kerry in the worst of
conditions. I know his character. I've witnessed his bravery and leadership
under fire. And I truly know he will be a great commander in chief.
Now, 35 years after the fact, some Republican-financed Swift Boat Veterans
for Bush are suddenly lying about John Kerry's service in Vietnam; they are
calling him a traitor because he spoke out against the Nixon
administration's failed policies in Vietnam. Some of these
Republican-sponsored veterans are the same ones who spoke out against John
at the behest of the Nixon administration in 1971. But this time their
attacks are more vicious, their lies cut deep and are directed not just at
John Kerry, but at me and each of his crewmates as well. This hate-filled ad
asserts that I was not under fire; it questions my words and Navy records.
This smear campaign has been launched by people without decency, people who
don't understand the bond of those who serve in combat.
As John McCain noted, the television ad aired by these veterans is
"dishonest and dishonorable." Sen. McCain called on President Bush to
condemn the Swift Boat Veterans for Bush ad. Regrettably, the president has
ignored Sen. McCain's advice.
Does this strategy of attacking combat Vietnam veterans sound familiar? In
2000, a similar Republican smear campaign was launched against Sen. McCain.
In fact, the very same communications group, Spaeth Communications, that
placed ads against John McCain in 2000 is involved in these vicious attacks
against John Kerry. Texas Republican donors with close ties to George W.
Bush and Karl Rove crafted this "dishonest and dishonorable" ad. Their new
charges are false; their stories are fabricated, made up by people who did
not serve with Kerry in Vietnam. They insult and defame all of us who served
in Vietnam.
But when the noise and fog of their distortions and lies have cleared, a man
who volunteered to serve his country, a man who showed up for duty when his
country called, a man to whom the United States Navy awarded a Silver Star,
a Bronze Star and three Purple Hearts, will stand tall and proud.
Ultimately, the American people will judge these Swift Boat Veterans for
Bush and their accusations. Americans are tired of smear campaigns against
those who volunteered to wear the uniform. Swift Boat Veterans for Bush
should hang their heads in shame.
Mr. Rassmann, a retired lieutenant with the Los Angeles County Sheriff's
Department, served with the U.S. Army 5th Special Forces Group in Vietnam
1968-69.
.
|
|
| User: "Rhino" |
|
| Title: Re: Shame on the Swift Boat Veterans for Bush BY JIM RASSMAN, |
18 Aug 2004 04:42:12 PM |
|
|
"Bill Case" <Billc548@Hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:oSOUc.6220$3O3.1285@newsread2.news.pas.earthlink.net...
The people, like Hines, who support Bush's slanders on John Kerry's war
service, are not just doing something dishonorable in the context of an
election.
They are also damaging the US military. Slander campaigns like this sink
into the culture and social practices of a country. This one will have its
affect on the comradeship that young troops and officers feel for each
other
in the years ahead - always wondering who might turn one on another
sometime
in the future, and for what reasons. Perhaps at the behest of weak corrupt
men trying to cut others down to their size. That's toxic.
Yet you have no problem in slandering George W. Bush and the Texas National
Guard. Where's your concern for the comradeship of young troops and officers
now?
Rhino
.
|
|
|
| User: "Bill Case" |
|
| Title: Re: Shame on the Swift Boat Veterans for Bush BY JIM RASSMAN, |
18 Aug 2004 05:09:14 PM |
|
|
"Rhino" <rhino1@NOSPAM.sympatico.ca> wrote in message
news:t2QUc.15586$ZI1.730998@news20.bellglobal.com...
"Bill Case" <Billc548@Hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:oSOUc.6220$3O3.1285@newsread2.news.pas.earthlink.net...
The people, like Hines, who support Bush's slanders on John Kerry's war
service, are not just doing something dishonorable in the context of an
election.
They are also damaging the US military. Slander campaigns like this sink
into the culture and social practices of a country. This one will have
its
affect on the comradeship that young troops and officers feel for each
other
in the years ahead - always wondering who might turn one on another
sometime
in the future, and for what reasons. Perhaps at the behest of weak
corrupt
men trying to cut others down to their size. That's toxic.
Yet you have no problem in slandering George W. Bush and the Texas
National
Guard. Where's your concern for the comradeship of young troops and
officers
now?
Rhino
Get real.
Bush used family connections to ducked the war and didn't even live up to
his NG obligations. He never earned anybody's loyalty or respect in the way
Kerry did.
.
|
|
|
| User: "Rhino" |
|
| Title: Re: Shame on the Swift Boat Veterans for Bush BY JIM RASSMAN, |
18 Aug 2004 05:58:57 PM |
|
|
"Bill Case" <Billd548@Hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:esQUc.27111$9Y6.3200@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net...
"Rhino" <rhino1@NOSPAM.sympatico.ca> wrote in message
news:t2QUc.15586$ZI1.730998@news20.bellglobal.com...
"Bill Case" <Billc548@Hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:oSOUc.6220$3O3.1285@newsread2.news.pas.earthlink.net...
The people, like Hines, who support Bush's slanders on John Kerry's
war
service, are not just doing something dishonorable in the context of
an
election.
They are also damaging the US military. Slander campaigns like this
sink
into the culture and social practices of a country. This one will have
its
affect on the comradeship that young troops and officers feel for each
other
in the years ahead - always wondering who might turn one on another
sometime
in the future, and for what reasons. Perhaps at the behest of weak
corrupt
men trying to cut others down to their size. That's toxic.
Yet you have no problem in slandering George W. Bush and the Texas
National
Guard. Where's your concern for the comradeship of young troops and
officers
now?
Rhino
Get real.
Bush used family connections to ducked the war and didn't even live up to
his NG obligations. He never earned anybody's loyalty or respect in the
way
Kerry did.
"Sez you." If you're not going to back up your allegations with references
then they will remain unproven allegations, at least in my mind. You may
sucker some people into believing they are true just because you *insist* it
is true but anyone with self-respect is going to look for confirmation of
*any* allegations they hear or read. By the way, I have the same policy of
checking facts for Republican or third party allegations so don't feel that
I'm singling you out.
By the way, why are you cross-posting this to so many groups that don't even
have a direct connection to the election, like alt.books.tom-clancy and
soc.history.medieval, but aren't posting it to obvious places like
us.politics? Aren't you familiar with Usenet "netiquette"?
Rhino
.
|
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|
| User: "Bill Case" |
|
| Title: Re: Shame on the Swift Boat Veterans for Bush BY JIM RASSMAN, |
18 Aug 2004 07:00:36 PM |
|
|
"Rhino" <rhino1@NOSPAM.sympatico.ca> wrote in message
news:qaRUc.15798$ZI1.749673@news20.bellglobal.com...
"Bill Case" <Billd548@Hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:esQUc.27111$9Y6.3200@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net...
"Rhino" <rhino1@NOSPAM.sympatico.ca> wrote in message
news:t2QUc.15586$ZI1.730998@news20.bellglobal.com...
"Bill Case" <Billc548@Hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:oSOUc.6220$3O3.1285@newsread2.news.pas.earthlink.net...
The people, like Hines, who support Bush's slanders on John Kerry's
war
service, are not just doing something dishonorable in the context of
an
election.
They are also damaging the US military. Slander campaigns like this
sink
into the culture and social practices of a country. This one will
have
its
affect on the comradeship that young troops and officers feel for
each
other
in the years ahead - always wondering who might turn one on another
sometime
in the future, and for what reasons. Perhaps at the behest of weak
corrupt
men trying to cut others down to their size. That's toxic.
Yet you have no problem in slandering George W. Bush and the Texas
National
Guard. Where's your concern for the comradeship of young troops and
officers
now?
Rhino
Get real.
Bush used family connections to ducked the war and didn't even live up
to
his NG obligations. He never earned anybody's loyalty or respect in the
way
Kerry did.
"Sez you." If you're not going to back up your allegations with references
then they will remain unproven allegations, at least in my mind. You may
sucker some people into believing they are true just because you *insist*
it
is true but anyone with self-respect is going to look for confirmation of
*any* allegations they hear or read. By the way, I have the same policy of
checking facts for Republican or third party allegations so don't feel
that
I'm singling you out.
Absolute *****.
This has been gone over in the press quite a bit and you just make yourself
look like a liar to pretend the situation isn't known.
Here's a good website for people interested in the subject.
http://www.angelfire.com/ca3/jphuck/Book4Ch.3.html
.
|
|
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| User: "Rhino" |
|
| Title: Re: Shame on the Swift Boat Veterans for Bush BY JIM RASSMAN, |
18 Aug 2004 11:03:37 PM |
|
|
"Bill Case" <Billd548@Hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:E4SUc.27217$9Y6.26026@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net...
"Rhino" <rhino1@NOSPAM.sympatico.ca> wrote in message
news:qaRUc.15798$ZI1.749673@news20.bellglobal.com...
"Bill Case" <Billd548@Hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:esQUc.27111$9Y6.3200@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net...
"Rhino" <rhino1@NOSPAM.sympatico.ca> wrote in message
news:t2QUc.15586$ZI1.730998@news20.bellglobal.com...
"Bill Case" <Billc548@Hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:oSOUc.6220$3O3.1285@newsread2.news.pas.earthlink.net...
The people, like Hines, who support Bush's slanders on John
Kerry's
war
service, are not just doing something dishonorable in the context
of
an
election.
They are also damaging the US military. Slander campaigns like
this
sink
into the culture and social practices of a country. This one will
have
its
affect on the comradeship that young troops and officers feel for
each
other
in the years ahead - always wondering who might turn one on
another
sometime
in the future, and for what reasons. Perhaps at the behest of weak
corrupt
men trying to cut others down to their size. That's toxic.
Yet you have no problem in slandering George W. Bush and the Texas
National
Guard. Where's your concern for the comradeship of young troops and
officers
now?
Rhino
Get real.
Bush used family connections to ducked the war and didn't even live up
to
his NG obligations. He never earned anybody's loyalty or respect in
the
way
Kerry did.
"Sez you." If you're not going to back up your allegations with
references
then they will remain unproven allegations, at least in my mind. You may
sucker some people into believing they are true just because you
*insist*
it
is true but anyone with self-respect is going to look for confirmation
of
*any* allegations they hear or read. By the way, I have the same policy
of
checking facts for Republican or third party allegations so don't feel
that
I'm singling you out.
Absolute *****.
This has been gone over in the press quite a bit and you just make
yourself
look like a liar to pretend the situation isn't known.
What press is that? I should mention that I'm Canadian so I don't actually
get the New York Times or whatever on my doorstep each morning.
Here's a good website for people interested in the subject.
http://www.angelfire.com/ca3/jphuck/Book4Ch.3.html
Again, it's past my bedtime so I'll look at that tomorrow if I get a minute.
Rhino
.
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| User: "Douglas Berry" |
|
| Title: Re: Shame on the Swift Boat Veterans for Bush BY JIM RASSMAN, |
18 Aug 2004 06:57:52 PM |
|
|
In our last thrilling episode, "Rhino" <rhino1@NOSPAM.sympatico.ca>
was pushed over the cliffs of alt.atheism on Wed, 18 Aug 2004 17:42:12
-0400 by Zoog, minion of Zathar. As he fell, he screamed:
Yet you have no problem in slandering George W. Bush and the Texas National
Guard. Where's your concern for the comradeship of young troops and officers
now?
No, we tell the truth about what Bush did. Nobody is slandering the
Air National Guard.
--
Douglas E. Berry Do the OBVIOUS thing to send e-mail
Atheist #2147, Atheist Vet #5
"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as
when they do it from religious conviction."
Blaise Pascal (1623-1662), Pense'es, #894.
.
|
|
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| User: "Rhino" |
|
| Title: Re: Shame on the Swift Boat Veterans for Bush BY JIM RASSMAN, |
18 Aug 2004 10:51:50 PM |
|
|
"Douglas Berry" <penguin_boy@mindOBVIOUSspring.com> wrote in message
news:t7r7i0p91q7nivvl5j46nuootth7ck1qm4@4ax.com...
In our last thrilling episode, "Rhino" <rhino1@NOSPAM.sympatico.ca>
was pushed over the cliffs of alt.atheism on Wed, 18 Aug 2004 17:42:12
-0400 by Zoog, minion of Zathar. As he fell, he screamed:
Yet you have no problem in slandering George W. Bush and the Texas
National
Guard. Where's your concern for the comradeship of young troops and
officers
now?
No, we tell the truth about what Bush did. Nobody is slandering the
Air National Guard.
How does that work? If a criticism of John Kerry is a slander against the
whole of the US armed forces, how is it that a criticism of Bush doesn't
slander anyone but Bush? I think the fact is that a slander of Bush is a
slander of Bush alone and a slander of Kerry is a slander of Kerry alone.
The only slander against the whole US armed forces consisted of Kerry's
allegations at the 1971 Senate hearings that My Lai type incidents were the
rule rather than the exception in Vietnam and that everyone knew about those
atrocities and everyone participated in them. If that's not a slander
against the US armed forces, I don't know what is.
Rhino
.
|
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| User: "Fester" |
|
| Title: Re: Shame on the Swift Boat Veterans for Bush BY JIM RASSMAN, |
19 Aug 2004 05:33:13 AM |
|
|
"Rhino" <rhino1@NOSPAM.sympatico.ca> wrote in message
news:%sVUc.18383$ZI1.820929@news20.bellglobal.com...
"Douglas Berry" <penguin_boy@mindOBVIOUSspring.com> wrote in message
news:t7r7i0p91q7nivvl5j46nuootth7ck1qm4@4ax.com...
In our last thrilling episode, "Rhino" <rhino1@NOSPAM.sympatico.ca>
was pushed over the cliffs of alt.atheism on Wed, 18 Aug 2004 17:42:12
-0400 by Zoog, minion of Zathar. As he fell, he screamed:
Yet you have no problem in slandering George W. Bush and the Texas
National
Guard. Where's your concern for the comradeship of young troops and
officers
now?
No, we tell the truth about what Bush did. Nobody is slandering the
Air National Guard.
How does that work? If a criticism of John Kerry is a slander against the
whole of the US armed forces, how is it that a criticism of Bush doesn't
slander anyone but Bush? I think the fact is that a slander of Bush is a
slander of Bush alone and a slander of Kerry is a slander of Kerry alone.
The only slander against the whole US armed forces consisted of Kerry's
allegations at the 1971 Senate hearings that My Lai type incidents were
the
rule rather than the exception in Vietnam and that everyone knew about
those
atrocities and everyone participated in them. If that's not a slander
against the US armed forces, I don't know what is.
Kerry and the Dems have been shamelessly using double standards for months.
If you criticize his voting record or lack of attendance at Intel Commitee
hearings he cries about havnig his "Patriotism" questioned. He tells about
how his 4 months in Nam are his prime qualification to be Cinc (over and
over and over), but don't anyone dare look at what he did there or worse,
what he did after the war. Today he praises the US soldiers in Nam as his
brother-hereoes, but in 1971 he told tried to make us all think that they
were all baby-killers. The Dems hounded Bush for months, with the press
gleefully joining in, to release his *all* ANG records, but many of Kerry's
are still sealed without a peep from the media. Kerry travels around the
country, putting his 'band of brothers' up in the best hotels and paying
them who-knows-how much, and they're the only Vets whose word we're supposed
to believe, while those whose only wages have been the predictable smear
campaign are to be silenced.
.
|
|
|
| User: "Kermit" |
|
| Title: Re: Shame on the Swift Boat Veterans for Bush BY JIM RASSMAN, |
19 Aug 2004 12:09:35 PM |
|
|
"Fester" <not@home.com> wrote in message news:<Jl%Uc.262215$2o2.15791168@twister.southeast.rr.com>...
"Rhino" <rhino1@NOSPAM.sympatico.ca> wrote in message
news:%sVUc.18383$ZI1.820929@news20.bellglobal.com...
"Douglas Berry" <penguin_boy@mindOBVIOUSspring.com> wrote in message
news:t7r7i0p91q7nivvl5j46nuootth7ck1qm4@4ax.com...
In our last thrilling episode, "Rhino" <rhino1@NOSPAM.sympatico.ca>
was pushed over the cliffs of alt.atheism on Wed, 18 Aug 2004 17:42:12
-0400 by Zoog, minion of Zathar. As he fell, he screamed:
Yet you have no problem in slandering George W. Bush and the Texas
National
Guard. Where's your concern for the comradeship of young troops and
officers
now?
No, we tell the truth about what Bush did. Nobody is slandering the
Air National Guard.
How does that work? If a criticism of John Kerry is a slander against the
whole of the US armed forces, how is it that a criticism of Bush doesn't
slander anyone but Bush? I think the fact is that a slander of Bush is a
slander of Bush alone and a slander of Kerry is a slander of Kerry alone.
The only slander against the whole US armed forces consisted of Kerry's
allegations at the 1971 Senate hearings that My Lai type incidents were
the
rule rather than the exception in Vietnam and that everyone knew about
those
atrocities and everyone participated in them. If that's not a slander
against the US armed forces, I don't know what is.
Kerry and the Dems have been shamelessly using double standards for months.
If you criticize his voting record or lack of attendance at Intel Commitee
hearings he cries about havnig his "Patriotism" questioned. He tells about
how his 4 months in Nam are his prime qualification to be Cinc (over and
over and over), but don't anyone dare look at what he did there or worse,
what he did after the war. Today he praises the US soldiers in Nam as his
brother-hereoes, but in 1971 he told tried to make us all think that they
were all baby-killers.
You have any cites? All I hear is what the GOP tell us Kerry said. The
Dems aren't saying. Trying to google for this produces too many hits,
none useful. Any keywords for me to search for?
The Dems hounded Bush for months, with the press
gleefully joining in, to release his *all* ANG records, but many of Kerry's
are still sealed without a peep from the media.
I thought he released them all. What are still locked up?
Kerry travels around the
country, putting his 'band of brothers' up in the best hotels and paying
them who-knows-how much, and they're the only Vets whose word we're supposed
to believe, while those whose only wages have been the predictable smear
campaign are to be silenced.
The swift boat vet for "truth" aren't getting paid?
How many of them were actually assigned to the same unit as Kerry in
the war? The letter just says that some of them "served with him".
That could mean anyone who was in the service. In what capacity did
they serve with him?
Looks to me like some vets who are still mad at him for criticisizing
behavior in the war, and associate him with Fonda (they never
interacted). Led by the same core group put together by Nixon in the
1970s.
I'm perfectly willing to give the vets who served with Bush the same
benefit of the doubt I give Kerry's shipmates. Can you give me a link
to their website?
Kermit
.
|
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|
| User: "Fester" |
|
| Title: Re: Shame on the Swift Boat Veterans for Bush BY JIM RASSMAN, |
19 Aug 2004 06:05:30 PM |
|
|
"Kermit" <unrestrained_hand@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:2b38d8c5.0408190909.31bc3421@posting.google.com...
"Fester" <not@home.com> wrote in message
news:<Jl%Uc.262215$2o2.15791168@twister.southeast.rr.com>...
"Rhino" <rhino1@NOSPAM.sympatico.ca> wrote in message
news:%sVUc.18383$ZI1.820929@news20.bellglobal.com...
"Douglas Berry" <penguin_boy@mindOBVIOUSspring.com> wrote in message
news:t7r7i0p91q7nivvl5j46nuootth7ck1qm4@4ax.com...
In our last thrilling episode, "Rhino" <rhino1@NOSPAM.sympatico.ca>
was pushed over the cliffs of alt.atheism on Wed, 18 Aug 2004
17:42:12
-0400 by Zoog, minion of Zathar. As he fell, he screamed:
Yet you have no problem in slandering George W. Bush and the Texas
National
Guard. Where's your concern for the comradeship of young troops and
officers
now?
No, we tell the truth about what Bush did. Nobody is slandering the
Air National Guard.
How does that work? If a criticism of John Kerry is a slander against
the
whole of the US armed forces, how is it that a criticism of Bush
doesn't
slander anyone but Bush? I think the fact is that a slander of Bush is
a
slander of Bush alone and a slander of Kerry is a slander of Kerry
alone.
The only slander against the whole US armed forces consisted of
Kerry's
allegations at the 1971 Senate hearings that My Lai type incidents
were
the
rule rather than the exception in Vietnam and that everyone knew about
those
atrocities and everyone participated in them. If that's not a slander
against the US armed forces, I don't know what is.
Kerry and the Dems have been shamelessly using double standards for
months.
If you criticize his voting record or lack of attendance at Intel
Commitee
hearings he cries about havnig his "Patriotism" questioned. He tells
about
how his 4 months in Nam are his prime qualification to be Cinc (over and
over and over), but don't anyone dare look at what he did there or
worse,
what he did after the war. Today he praises the US soldiers in Nam as
his
brother-hereoes, but in 1971 he told tried to make us all think that
they
were all baby-killers.
You have any cites? All I hear is what the GOP tell us Kerry said. The
Dems aren't saying. Trying to google for this produces too many hits,
none useful. Any keywords for me to search for?
wintersoldier.com has detailed accounts of his testimony and partial
recantations.
The Dems hounded Bush for months, with the press
gleefully joining in, to release his *all* ANG records, but many of
Kerry's
are still sealed without a peep from the media.
I thought he released them all. What are still locked up?
The after action reports, which he wrote and which several vets (such as
Thurlow) say he lied on:
<quote>
Statement By Swift Boat Veterans for Truth Member Larry Thurlow
I am convinced that the language used in my citation for a Bronze Star was
language taken directly from John Kerry's report which falsely described the
action on the Bay Hap River as action that saw small arms fire and automatic
weapons fire from both banks of the river.
To this day, I can say without a doubt in my mind, along with other accounts
from my shipmates-there was no hostile enemy fire directed at my boat or at
any of the five boats operating on the river that day.
I submitted no paperwork for a medal nor did I file an after action report
describing the incident. To my knowledge, John Kerry was the only officer
who filed a report describing his version of the incidents that occurred on
the river that day.
It was not until I had left the Navy-approximately three months after I left
the service-that I was notified that I was to receive a citation for my
actions on that day.
I believed then as I believe now that I received my Bronze Star for my
efforts to rescue the injured crewmen from swift boat number three and to
conduct damage control to prevent that boat from sinking. My boat and
several other swift boats went to the aid of our fellow swift boat sailors
whose craft was adrift and taking on water. We provided immediate rescue and
damage control to prevent boat three from sinking and to offer immediate
protection and comfort to the injured crew.
After the mine exploded, leaving swift boat three dead in the water, John
Kerry's boat, which was on the opposite side of the river, fled the scene.
US Army Special Forces officer Jim Rassmann, who was on Kerry's boat at the
time, fell off the boat and into the water. Kerry's boat returned several
minutes later-under no hail of enemy gunfire-to retrieve Rassmann from the
river only seconds before another boat was going to pick him up.
Kerry campaign spokespersons have conflicting accounts of this incident-the
latest one being that Kerry's boat did leave but only briefly and returned
under withering enemy fire to rescue Mr. Rassmann. However, none of the
other boats on the river that day reported enemy fire nor was anyone wounded
by small arms action. The only damage on that day was done to boat three-a
result of the underwater mine. None of the other swift boats received damage
from enemy gunfire.
And in a new development, Kerry campaign officials are now finally
acknowledging that while Kerry's boat left the scene, none of the other
boats on the river ever left the damaged swift boat. This is a direct
contradiction to previous accounts made by Jim Rassmann in the Oregonian
newspaper and a direct contradiction to the "No Man Left Behind" theme
during the Democratic National Convention.
These ever changing accounts of the Bay Hap River incident by Kerry campaign
officials leave me asking one question. If no one ever left the scene of the
Bay Hap River incident, how could anyone be left behind?
</quote>
Kerry travels around the
country, putting his 'band of brothers' up in the best hotels and paying
them who-knows-how much, and they're the only Vets whose word we're
supposed
to believe, while those whose only wages have been the predictable smear
campaign are to be silenced.
The swift boat vet for "truth" aren't getting paid?
Only in political attacks.
How many of them were actually assigned to the same unit as Kerry in
the war?
There are 60 eyewitnesses who have provided affadavits for their book.
The letter just says that some of them "served with him".
That could mean anyone who was in the service. In what capacity did
they serve with him?
Read the book.
Looks to me like some vets who are still mad at him for criticisizing
behavior in the war, and associate him with Fonda (they never
interacted). Led by the same core group put together by Nixon in the
1970s.
O'Dell is not a eye witness, as he arrived in Kerry's unit followng his
deprture. He has assumed the role of compiling the accounts of those who
did observe Kerry's actions. Most of the vets have been publically silent
for 35 years. They are speaking out now because they feel that Kerry is not
fit to be CinC.
I'm perfectly willing to give the vets who served with Bush the same
benefit of the doubt I give Kerry's shipmates. Can you give me a link
to their website?
www.swiftvets.com
.
|
|
|
| User: "Douglas Berry" |
|
| Title: Re: Shame on the Swift Boat Veterans for Bush BY JIM RASSMAN, |
19 Aug 2004 11:20:36 PM |
|
|
In our last thrilling episode, "Fester" <not@home.com> was pushed over
the cliffs of alt.atheism on Thu, 19 Aug 2004 23:05:30 GMT by Zoog,
minion of Zathar. As he fell, he screamed:
I thought he released them all. What are still locked up?
The after action reports, which he wrote and which several vets (such as
Thurlow) say he lied on:
You mean these?
http://www.johnkerry.com/about/john_kerry/combat_reports.html
Have fun sunshine. So, when are we going to see a muster repoirt from
the Alabama Air National Guard showing 1LT George W. Bush's name on
it?
--
Douglas E. Berry Do the OBVIOUS thing to send e-mail
Atheist #2147, Atheist Vet #5
"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as
when they do it from religious conviction."
Blaise Pascal (1623-1662), Pense'es, #894.
.
|
|
|
| User: "Fester" |
|
| Title: Re: Shame on the Swift Boat Veterans for Bush BY JIM RASSMAN, |
20 Aug 2004 03:20:06 AM |
|
|
"Douglas Berry" <penguin_boy@mindOBVIOUSspring.com> wrote in message
news:tvuai0ps8djqkggsn7pbuiq501f7ieq45t@4ax.com...
In our last thrilling episode, "Fester" <not@home.com> was pushed over
the cliffs of alt.atheism on Thu, 19 Aug 2004 23:05:30 GMT by Zoog,
minion of Zathar. As he fell, he screamed:
I thought he released them all. What are still locked up?
The after action reports, which he wrote and which several vets (such as
Thurlow) say he lied on:
You mean these?
http://www.johnkerry.com/about/john_kerry/combat_reports.html
TY. Were these just released, or have they been available for some time?
I'm not sure which records are being discussed, then in articles such as:
http://wizbangblog.com/archives/003355.php
Have fun sunshine. So, when are we going to see a muster repoirt from
the Alabama Air National Guard showing 1LT George W. Bush's name on
it?
You mean these?
http://209.157.64.200/focus/f-news/1177303/posts
.
|
|
|
| User: "Douglas Berry" |
|
| Title: Re: Shame on the Swift Boat Veterans for Bush BY JIM RASSMAN, |
20 Aug 2004 10:27:44 AM |
|
|
In our last thrilling episode, "Fester" <not@home.com> was pushed over
the cliffs of alt.atheism on Fri, 20 Aug 2004 08:20:06 GMT by Zoog,
minion of Zathar. As he fell, he screamed:
"Douglas Berry" <penguin_boy@mindOBVIOUSspring.com> wrote in message
news:tvuai0ps8djqkggsn7pbuiq501f7ieq45t@4ax.com...
The after action reports, which he wrote and which several vets (such as
Thurlow) say he lied on:
You mean these?
http://www.johnkerry.com/about/john_kerry/combat_reports.html
TY. Were these just released, or have they been available for some time?
I'm not sure which records are being discussed, then in articles such as:
http://wizbangblog.com/archives/003355.php
Those have been up on John Kerry's website since April.
Have fun sunshine. So, when are we going to see a muster repoirt from
the Alabama Air National Guard showing 1LT George W. Bush's name on
it?
You mean these?
http://209.157.64.200/focus/f-news/1177303/posts
No, not payroll records.. an actual muster sheet.
When a National Guard unit has monthly training, a roster is prepared
showing who actually showed up, what they accomplished (if anything)
and any personnel actions taken (promotions, school assignments,
whatever.) It is a record of military service. Pay records don't
show anything.
No one has shown one shred of evidence that Bush actually reported for
duty in Alabama, let alone reported for monthly drill.
--
Douglas E. Berry Do the OBVIOUS thing to send e-mail
Atheist #2147, Atheist Vet #5
"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as
when they do it from religious conviction."
Blaise Pascal (1623-1662), Pense'es, #894.
.
|
|
|
| User: "Fester" |
|
| Title: Re: Shame on the Swift Boat Veterans for Bush BY JIM RASSMAN, |
20 Aug 2004 05:55:54 PM |
|
|
"Douglas Berry" <penguin_boy@mindOBVIOUSspring.com> wrote in message
news:nt5ci0d1m129e5jvhpp12cpfn3u9sghruj@4ax.com...
In our last thrilling episode, "Fester" <not@home.com> was pushed over
the cliffs of alt.atheism on Fri, 20 Aug 2004 08:20:06 GMT by Zoog,
minion of Zathar. As he fell, he screamed:
"Douglas Berry" <penguin_boy@mindOBVIOUSspring.com> wrote in message
news:tvuai0ps8djqkggsn7pbuiq501f7ieq45t@4ax.com...
The after action reports, which he wrote and which several vets (such
as
Thurlow) say he lied on:
You mean these?
http://www.johnkerry.com/about/john_kerry/combat_reports.html
TY. Were these just released, or have they been available for some time?
I'm not sure which records are being discussed, then in articles such as:
http://wizbangblog.com/archives/003355.php
Those have been up on John Kerry's website since April.
TY, these are hat I meant:
http://www.judicialwatch.org/archive/2004/kerryawards.htm
Have fun sunshine. So, when are we going to see a muster repoirt from
the Alabama Air National Guard showing 1LT George W. Bush's name on
it?
You mean these?
http://209.157.64.200/focus/f-news/1177303/posts
No, not payroll records.. an actual muster sheet.
When a National Guard unit has monthly training, a roster is prepared
showing who actually showed up, what they accomplished (if anything)
and any personnel actions taken (promotions, school assignments,
whatever.) It is a record of military service. Pay records don't
show anything.
No one has shown one shred of evidence that Bush actually reported for
duty in Alabama, let alone reported for monthly drill.
Nor have they brought forward one iota of evidence to question it.
.
|
|
|
| User: "Bill Case" |
|
| Title: Re: Shame on the Swift Boat Veterans for Bush BY JIM RASSMAN, |
20 Aug 2004 06:14:00 PM |
|
|
"Fester" <not@home.com> wrote in message
news:_jvVc.200528$tH1.10547208@twister.southeast.rr.com...
"Douglas Berry" <penguin_boy@mindOBVIOUSspring.com> wrote in message
news:nt5ci0d1m129e5jvhpp12cpfn3u9sghruj@4ax.com...
In our last thrilling episode, "Fester" <not@home.com> was pushed over
the cliffs of alt.atheism on Fri, 20 Aug 2004 08:20:06 GMT by Zoog,
minion of Zathar. As he fell, he screamed:
"Douglas Berry" <penguin_boy@mindOBVIOUSspring.com> wrote in message
news:tvuai0ps8djqkggsn7pbuiq501f7ieq45t@4ax.com...
The after action reports, which he wrote and which several vets
(such
as
Thurlow) say he lied on:
You mean these?
http://www.johnkerry.com/about/john_kerry/combat_reports.html
TY. Were these just released, or have they been available for some
time?
I'm not sure which records are being discussed, then in articles such
as:
http://wizbangblog.com/archives/003355.php
Those have been up on John Kerry's website since April.
TY, these are hat I meant:
http://www.judicialwatch.org/archive/2004/kerryawards.htm
Have fun sunshine. So, when are we going to see a muster repoirt
from
the Alabama Air National Guard showing 1LT George W. Bush's name on
it?
You mean these?
http://209.157.64.200/focus/f-news/1177303/posts
No, not payroll records.. an actual muster sheet.
for monthly drill.
Nor have they brought forward one iota of evidence to question it.
Plenty of detail here...
http://www.realchange.org/bushjr.htm#vietnam
.
|
|
|
| User: "Fester" |
|
| Title: Re: Shame on the Swift Boat Veterans for Bush BY JIM RASSMAN, |
20 Aug 2004 06:46:46 PM |
|
|
"Bill Case" <Billd548@Hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:YAvVc.28985$9Y6.13116@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net...
"Fester" <not@home.com> wrote in message
news:_jvVc.200528$tH1.10547208@twister.southeast.rr.com...
"Douglas Berry" <penguin_boy@mindOBVIOUSspring.com> wrote in message
news:nt5ci0d1m129e5jvhpp12cpfn3u9sghruj@4ax.com...
In our last thrilling episode, "Fester" <not@home.com> was pushed over
the cliffs of alt.atheism on Fri, 20 Aug 2004 08:20:06 GMT by Zoog,
minion of Zathar. As he fell, he screamed:
"Douglas Berry" <penguin_boy@mindOBVIOUSspring.com> wrote in message
news:tvuai0ps8djqkggsn7pbuiq501f7ieq45t@4ax.com...
The after action reports, which he wrote and which several vets
(such
as
Thurlow) say he lied on:
You mean these?
http://www.johnkerry.com/about/john_kerry/combat_reports.html
TY. Were these just released, or have they been available for some
time?
I'm not sure which records are being discussed, then in articles such
as:
http://wizbangblog.com/archives/003355.php
Those have been up on John Kerry's website since April.
TY, these are hat I meant:
http://www.judicialwatch.org/archive/2004/kerryawards.htm
Have fun sunshine. So, when are we going to see a muster repoirt
from
the Alabama Air National Guard showing 1LT George W. Bush's name on
it?
You mean these?
http://209.157.64.200/focus/f-news/1177303/posts
No, not payroll records.. an actual muster sheet.
for monthly drill.
Nor have they brought forward one iota of evidence to question it.
Plenty of detail here...
http://www.realchange.org/bushjr.htm#vietnam
And here's the proof that you're FOS.
Now where was Kerry on Xmas '69 again?
.
|
|
|
| User: "Fester" |
|
| Title: Re: Shame on the Swift Boat Veterans for Bush BY JIM RASSMAN, |
20 Aug 2004 06:59:39 PM |
|
|
"Fester" <not@home.com> wrote in message
news:G3wVc.200530$tH1.10552177@twister.southeast.rr.com...
"Bill Case" <Billd548@Hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:YAvVc.28985$9Y6.13116@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net...
"Fester" <not@home.com> wrote in message
news:_jvVc.200528$tH1.10547208@twister.southeast.rr.com...
"Douglas Berry" <penguin_boy@mindOBVIOUSspring.com> wrote in message
news:nt5ci0d1m129e5jvhpp12cpfn3u9sghruj@4ax.com...
In our last thrilling episode, "Fester" <not@home.com> was pushed
over
the cliffs of alt.atheism on Fri, 20 Aug 2004 08:20:06 GMT by Zoog,
minion of Zathar. As he fell, he screamed:
"Douglas Berry" <penguin_boy@mindOBVIOUSspring.com> wrote in
message
news:tvuai0ps8djqkggsn7pbuiq501f7ieq45t@4ax.com...
The after action reports, which he wrote and which several vets
(such
as
Thurlow) say he lied on:
You mean these?
http://www.johnkerry.com/about/john_kerry/combat_reports.html
TY. Were these just released, or have they been available for some
time?
I'm not sure which records are being discussed, then in articles
such
as:
http://wizbangblog.com/archives/003355.php
Those have been up on John Kerry's website since April.
TY, these are hat I meant:
http://www.judicialwatch.org/archive/2004/kerryawards.htm
Have fun sunshine. So, when are we going to see a muster repoirt
from
the Alabama Air National Guard showing 1LT George W. Bush's name
on
it?
You mean these?
http://209.157.64.200/focus/f-news/1177303/posts
No, not payroll records.. an actual muster sheet.
for monthly drill.
Nor have they brought forward one iota of evidence to question it.
Plenty of detail here...
http://www.realchange.org/bushjr.htm#vietnam
And here's the proof that you're FOS.
Ooops, here's the link.
http://oregonmag.com/BushNatGuardTL.htm
Now where was Kerry on Xmas '69 again?
.
|
|
|
| User: "Bill Case" |
|
| Title: Re: Shame on the Swift Boat Veterans for Bush BY JIM RASSMAN, |
20 Aug 2004 07:28:44 PM |
|
|
"Fester" <not@home.com> wrote in message
news:LfwVc.263457$2o2.15988405@twister.southeast.rr.com...
"Fester" <not@home.com> wrote in message
No Festered, I'm afraid that once again you are FOS.
People can look at these two source sand see for themselves which has
investigative detail and credibilty.
http://www.realchange.org/bushjr.htm#vietnam
http://oregonmag.com/BushNatGuardTL.htm
Now where was Kerry on Xmas '69 again?
Festered, dammit, it was Xmas '68 that he probably enhanced a bit. He was
probably sitting at home xmas '69.
There were numerous border crossings during the period, both intentional on
covert mission, and by accident .
A US riverboat was seized by the Cambodians around that time.
If you were in the Navy or MC, you would be familiar with "sea stories" -
based on truth but "enhanced", and nobody gets too disturbed by them.
.
|
|
|
| User: "Fester" |
|
| Title: Re: Shame on the Swift Boat Veterans for Bush BY JIM RASSMAN, |
20 Aug 2004 08:12:23 PM |
|
|
"Bill Case" <Billd548@Hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:0HwVc.29031$9Y6.347@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net...
"Fester" <not@home.com> wrote in message
news:LfwVc.263457$2o2.15988405@twister.southeast.rr.com...
"Fester" <not@home.com> wrote in message
No Festered, I'm afraid that once again you are FOS.
People can look at these two source sand see for themselves which has
investigative detail and credibilty.
http://www.realchange.org/bushjr.htm#vietnam
http://oregonmag.com/BushNatGuardTL.htm
Now where was Kerry on Xmas '69 again?
Festered,
Do you like sucking *****, or are you just in it for the money?
dammit, it was Xmas '68 that he probably enhanced a bit. He was
probably sitting at home xmas '69.
OK, '68. He has half a dozen different versions fo this story, it's hard to
keep track. He's said that he was in Cambodia in Jan of '69 a few time.
Another time, he said that he dropped some spook off on Xmas eve. A
different time he said that he was 5 miles away from the border. Forgive
the confusion, but with all these conflicting stories from him it's so hard
to keep dates straight. BTW, which story do you buy?
There were numerous border crossings during the period, both intentional
on
covert mission, and by accident .
A US riverboat was seized by the Cambodians around that time.
If you were in the Navy or MC, you would be familiar with "sea stories" -
based on truth but "enhanced", and nobody gets too disturbed by them.
Oh, I see, as if he hasn't come up with enough alternative fish tales you've
got to add your own.
.
|
|
|
| User: "Bill Case" |
|
| Title: Re: Shame on the Swift Boat Veterans for Bush BY JIM RASSMAN, |
21 Aug 2004 11:08:49 AM |
|
|
"Fester" <not@home.com> wrote in message
news:XjxVc.179531$wH4.11948181@twister.southeast.rr.com...
"Bill Case" <Billd548@Hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:0HwVc.29031$9Y6.347@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net...
"Fester" <not@home.com> wrote in message
news:LfwVc.263457$2o2.15988405@twister.southeast.rr.com...
"Fester" <not@home.com> wrote in message
No Festered, I'm afraid that once again you are FOS.
People can look at these two source sand see for themselves which has
investigative detail and credibilty.
http://www.realchange.org/bushjr.htm#vietnam
http://oregonmag.com/BushNatGuardTL.htm
Now where was Kerry on Xmas '69 again?
Festered,
Do you like sucking *****, or are you just in it for the money?
dammit, it was Xmas '68 that he probably enhanced a bit. He was
probably sitting at home xmas '69.
OK, '68. He has half a dozen different versions fo this story, it's hard
to
keep track.
No he doesn't. If you were ever in the service you wouldn't have to have
things like this explained to you.
He's said that he was in Cambodia in Jan of '69 a few time.
Do you even knwo that the boats were used for covert insertions of SEALS and
Army SF, on both sides of the border?
Another time, he said that he dropped some spook off on Xmas eve. A
different time he said that he was 5 miles away from the border. Forgive
the confusion, but with all these conflicting stories from him it's so
hard
to keep dates straight. BTW, which story do you buy?
You stupid *****, the boats did numerous operations, and numerous insertions.
There were numerous border crossings during the period, both
intentional
on
covert mission, and by accident .
A US riverboat was seized by the Cambodians around that time.
If you were in the Navy or MC, you would be familiar with "sea
stories" -
based on truth but "enhanced", and nobody gets too disturbed by them.
Oh, I see, as if he hasn't come up with enough alternative fish tales
you've
got to add your own.
What a putrid little liar. H
How many risks have you ever taken for the country?
You piece of *****.
.
|
|
|
|
| User: "Bill Case" |
|
| Title: Re: Shame on the Swift Boat Veterans for Bush BY JIM RASSMAN, |
21 Aug 2004 12:11:58 PM |
|
|
"Fester" <not@home.com> wrote in message
news:XjxVc.179531$wH4.11948181@twister.southeast.rr.com...
"Bill Case" <Billd548@Hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:0HwVc.29031$9Y6.347@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net...
"Fester" <not@home.com> wrote in message
news:LfwVc.263457$2o2.15988405@twister.southeast.rr.com...
"Fester" <not@home.com> wrote in message
No Festered, I'm afraid that once again you are FOS.
People can look at these two source sand see for themselves which has
investigative detail and credibilty.
http://www.realchange.org/bushjr.htm#vietnam
http://oregonmag.com/BushNatGuardTL.htm
Now where was Kerry on Xmas '69 again?
Festered,
Do you like sucking *****, or are you just in it for the money?
That's your mother you're thinking of, *****
I don't do it all, you piece of septic tank ***** coward.
.
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| User: "Lawrence Seib" |
|
| Title: Re: Shame on the Swift Boat Veterans for Bush BY JIM RASSMAN, |
19 Aug 2004 09:18:23 AM |
|
|
"Rhino" <rhino1@NOSPAM.sympatico.ca> wrote in message news:<%sVUc.18383$ZI1.820929@news20.bellglobal.com>...
"Douglas Berry" <penguin_boy@mindOBVIOUSspring.com> wrote in message
news:t7r7i0p91q7nivvl5j46nuootth7ck1qm4@4ax.com...
In our last thrilling episode, "Rhino" <rhino1@NOSPAM.sympatico.ca>
was pushed over the cliffs of alt.atheism on Wed, 18 Aug 2004 17:42:12
-0400 by Zoog, minion of Zathar. As he fell, he screamed:
Yet you have no problem in slandering George W. Bush and the Texas
National
Guard. Where's your concern for the comradeship of young troops and
officers
now?
No, we tell the truth about what Bush did. Nobody is slandering the
Air National Guard.
How does that work? If a criticism of John Kerry is a slander against the
whole of the US armed forces, how is it that a criticism of Bush doesn't
slander anyone but Bush? I think the fact is that a slander of Bush is a
slander of Bush alone and a slander of Kerry is a slander of Kerry alone.
Slander implies false allegations. Since we can prove Shrub
did not show up at the national guard for over one year (1), without
permission (2), it is not slander.
The ad critising Kerry however states that Kerry betrayed US solders
by his stance against the Veitnam war. Since Kerry is not the
only Vet who thought the war was wrong, the Ad slanders them all.
The only slander against the whole US armed forces consisted of Kerry's
allegations at the 1971 Senate hearings that My Lai type incidents were the
rule rather than the exception in Vietnam and that everyone knew about those
atrocities and everyone participated in them. If that's not a slander
against the US armed forces, I don't know what is.
Again, the slander depends on wether or not the allegations are
true, but they might be. Unless you can prove he
was wrong you are simply makeing unsubstantiated
allegations.
(1) http://news.findlaw.com/hdocs/docs/gwbush/gwb72-73arfspe1.pdf
(2) http://users.cis.net/coldfeet/doc5.gif
.
|
|
|
| User: "Fester" |
|
| Title: Re: Shame on the Swift Boat Veterans for Bush BY JIM RASSMAN, |
19 Aug 2004 07:03:31 PM |
|
|
"Lawrence Seib" <lseib@kuhub.cc.ukans.edu> wrote in message
news:75ab6396.0408190618.7e7e0980@posting.google.com...
"Rhino" <rhino1@NOSPAM.sympatico.ca> wrote in message
news:<%sVUc.18383$ZI1.820929@news20.bellglobal.com>...
"Douglas Berry" <penguin_boy@mindOBVIOUSspring.com> wrote in message
news:t7r7i0p91q7nivvl5j46nuootth7ck1qm4@4ax.com...
In our last thrilling episode, "Rhino" <rhino1@NOSPAM.sympatico.ca>
was pushed over the cliffs of alt.atheism on Wed, 18 Aug 2004 17:42:12
-0400 by Zoog, minion of Zathar. As he fell, he screamed:
Yet you have no problem in slandering George W. Bush and the Texas
National
Guard. Where's your concern for the comradeship of young troops and
officers
now?
No, we tell the truth about what Bush did. Nobody is slandering the
Air National Guard.
How does that work? If a criticism of John Kerry is a slander against
the
whole of the US armed forces, how is it that a criticism of Bush doesn't
slander anyone but Bush? I think the fact is that a slander of Bush is a
slander of Bush alone and a slander of Kerry is a slander of Kerry
alone.
Slander implies false allegations. Since we can prove Shrub
did not show up at the national guard for over one year (1), without
permission (2), it is not slander.
Not only can you not prove it, but Bush has already proven it to be FALSE!
The ad critising Kerry however states that Kerry betrayed US solders
by his stance against the Veitnam war. Since Kerry is not the
only Vet who thought the war was wrong, the Ad slanders them all.
No, the ads state that he LIED about the conduct of both himself (under
orders) and about others. His disloyalty was not simply expressing honest
reasons to oppose the war, it was in actively slandering others.
The only slander against the whole US armed forces consisted of Kerry's
allegations at the 1971 Senate hearings that My Lai type incidents were
the
rule rather than the exception in Vietnam and that everyone knew about
those
atrocities and everyone participated in them. If that's not a slander
against the US armed forces, I don't know what is.
Again, the slander depends on wether or not the allegations are
true, but they might be. Unless you can prove he
was wrong you are simply makeing unsubstantiated
allegations.
He has already admitted that they were FALSE. He has also changed his story
about other slanders recently, such as Xmas in Cambodia.
(1) http://news.findlaw.com/hdocs/docs/gwbush/gwb72-73arfspe1.pdf
(2) http://users.cis.net/coldfeet/doc5.gif
.
|
|
|
| User: "Lawrence Seib" |
|
| Title: Re: Shame on the Swift Boat Veterans for Bush BY JIM RASSMAN, |
23 Aug 2004 12:30:01 PM |
|
|
"Fester" <not@home.com> wrote in message news:<ndbVc.179398$wH4.11701323@twister.southeast.rr.com>...
"Lawrence Seib" <lseib@kuhub.cc.ukans.edu> wrote in message
news:75ab6396.0408190618.7e7e0980@posting.google.com...
"Fester" <not@home.com> wrote in message news:<ndbVc.179398$wH4.11701323@twister.southeast.rr.com>...
"Lawrence Seib" <lseib@kuhub.cc.ukans.edu> wrote in message
news:75ab6396.0408190618.7e7e0980@posting.google.com...
"Rhino" <rhino1@NOSPAM.sympatico.ca> wrote in message
news:<%sVUc.18383$ZI1.820929@news20.bellglobal.com>...
"Douglas Berry" <penguin_boy@mindOBVIOUSspring.com> wrote in message
news:t7r7i0p91q7nivvl5j46nuootth7ck1qm4@4ax.com...
In our last thrilling episode, "Rhino" <rhino1@NOSPAM.sympatico.ca>
was pushed over the cliffs of alt.atheism on Wed, 18 Aug 2004 17:42:12
-0400 by Zoog, minion of Zathar. As he fell, he screamed:
Yet you have no problem in slandering George W. Bush and the Texas
National
Guard. Where's your concern for the comradeship of young troops and
officers
now?
No, we tell the truth about what Bush did. Nobody is slandering the
Air National Guard.
How does that work? If a criticism of John Kerry is a slander
against the whole of the US armed forces, how is it that a
criticism of Bush doesn't slander anyone but Bush? I think
the fact is that a slander of Bush is a slander of Bush alone
and a slander of Kerry is a slander of Kerry alone.
Slander implies false allegations. Since we can prove Shrub
did not show up at the national guard for over one year (1), without
permission (2), it is not slander.
Not only can you not prove it, but Bush has already proven it to be FALSE!
Here is the scanned copy of Bush's chronological listing of service,
http://users.cis.net/coldfeet/doc10.gif
notice that from from May 1, 1972 until April 30, 1973, a period of
twelve months, there are no days served. If he had served the required
weekend a month, then he should have at lest 24 days plus the needed
to a two week camp, so he is missing 36 days.
Now he claims that he transfered to a Texas Air National Guard in
Montgomery, Alabama, but the transfer was denied.
http://users.cis.net/coldfeet/doc5.gif
So where is your proof that this is false. That is what I
thought.
Larry
.
|
|
|
| User: "Fester" |
|
| Title: Re: Shame on the Swift Boat Veterans for Bush BY JIM RASSMAN, |
23 Aug 2004 05:31:12 PM |
|
|
"Lawrence Seib" <lseib@kuhub.cc.ukans.edu> wrote in message
news:75ab6396.0408230930.49911671@posting.google.com...
"Fester" <not@home.com> wrote in message
news:<ndbVc.179398$wH4.11701323@twister.southeast.rr.com>...
"Lawrence Seib" <lseib@kuhub.cc.ukans.edu> wrote in message
news:75ab6396.0408190618.7e7e0980@posting.google.com...
"Fester" <not@home.com> wrote in message
news:<ndbVc.179398$wH4.11701323@twister.southeast.rr.com>...
"Lawrence Seib" <lseib@kuhub.cc.ukans.edu> wrote in message
news:75ab6396.0408190618.7e7e0980@posting.google.com...
"Rhino" <rhino1@NOSPAM.sympatico.ca> wrote in message
news:<%sVUc.18383$ZI1.820929@news20.bellglobal.com>...
"Douglas Berry" <penguin_boy@mindOBVIOUSspring.com> wrote in message
news:t7r7i0p91q7nivvl5j46nuootth7ck1qm4@4ax.com...
In our last thrilling episode, "Rhino"
<rhino1@NOSPAM.sympatico.ca>
was pushed over the cliffs of alt.atheism on Wed, 18 Aug 2004
17:42:12
-0400 by Zoog, minion of Zathar. As he fell, he screamed:
Yet you have no problem in slandering George W. Bush and the
Texas
National
Guard. Where's your concern for the comradeship of young troops
and
officers
now?
No, we tell the truth about what Bush did. Nobody is slandering
the
Air National Guard.
How does that work? If a criticism of John Kerry is a slander
against the whole of the US armed forces, how is it that a
criticism of Bush doesn't slander anyone but Bush? I think
the fact is that a slander of Bush is a slander of Bush alone
and a slander of Kerry is a slander of Kerry alone.
Slander implies false allegations. Since we can prove Shrub
did not show up at the national guard for over one year (1), without
permission (2), it is not slander.
Not only can you not prove it, but Bush has already proven it to be
FALSE!
Here is the scanned copy of Bush's chronological listing of service,
http://users.cis.net/coldfeet/doc10.gif
notice that from from May 1, 1972 until April 30, 1973, a period of
twelve months, there are no days served. If he had served the required
weekend a month, then he should have at lest 24 days plus the needed
to a two week camp, so he is missing 36 days.
Now he claims that he transfered to a Texas Air National Guard in
Montgomery, Alabama, but the transfer was denied.
http://users.cis.net/coldfeet/doc5.gif
So where is your proof that this is false. That is what I
thought.
You haven't proven that he was obligated to serve any time that he did not.
Furthermore, he has released his DD-214 (Honorable Discharge), which he
could not have obtained if he failed to meet his obligations.
.
|
|
|
| User: "Lawrence Seib" |
|
| Title: Re: Shame on the Swift Boat Veterans for Bush BY JIM RASSMAN, |
25 Aug 2004 09:46:56 AM |
|
|
"Fester" <not@home.com> wrote in message news:<QeuWc.7020$eu1.197065@twister.southeast.rr.com>...
"Lawrence Seib" <lseib@kuhub.cc.ukans.edu> wrote in message
news:75ab6396.0408230930.49911671@posting.google.com...
"Fester" <not@home.com> wrote in message
news:<ndbVc.179398$wH4.11701323@twister.southeast.rr.com>...
"Lawrence Seib" <lseib@kuhub.cc.ukans.edu> wrote in message
news:75ab6396.0408190618.7e7e0980@posting.google.com...
"Fester" <not@home.com> wrote in message
news:<ndbVc.179398$wH4.11701323@twister.southeast.rr.com>...
"Lawrence Seib" <lseib@kuhub.cc.ukans.edu> wrote in message
news:75ab6396.0408190618.7e7e0980@posting.google.com...
"Rhino" <rhino1@NOSPAM.sympatico.ca> wrote in message
news:<%sVUc.18383$ZI1.820929@news20.bellglobal.com>...
"Douglas Berry" <penguin_boy@mindOBVIOUSspring.com> wrote in message
news:t7r7i0p91q7nivvl5j46nuootth7ck1qm4@4ax.com...
In our last thrilling episode, "Rhino"
<rhino1@NOSPAM.sympatico.ca>
was pushed over the cliffs of alt.atheism on Wed, 18 Aug 2004
17:42:12
-0400 by Zoog, minion of Zathar. As he fell, he screamed:
Yet you have no problem in slandering George W. Bush and the
Texas
National
Guard. Where's your concern for the comradeship of young troops
and
officers
now?
No, we tell the truth about what Bush did. Nobody is slandering
the
Air National Guard.
How does that work? If a criticism of John Kerry is a slander
against the whole of the US armed forces, how is it that a
criticism of Bush doesn't slander anyone but Bush? I think
the fact is that a slander of Bush is a slander of Bush alone
and a slander of Kerry is a slander of Kerry alone.
Slander implies false allegations. Since we can prove Shrub
did not show up at the national guard for over one year (1), without
permission (2), it is not slander.
Not only can you not prove it, but Bush has already proven it to be
FALSE!
Here is the scanned copy of Bush's chronological listing of service,
http://users.cis.net/coldfeet/doc10.gif
notice that from from May 1, 1972 until April 30, 1973, a period of
twelve months, there are no days served. If he had served the required
weekend a month, then he should have at lest 24 days plus the needed
to a two week camp, so he is missing 36 days.
Now he claims that he transfered to a Texas Air National Guard in
Montgomery, Alabama, but the transfer was denied.
http://users.cis.net/coldfeet/doc5.gif
So where is your proof that this is false. That is what I
thought.
You haven't proven that he was obligated to serve any time that he did not.
You apparently did not read http://users.cis.net/coldfeet/doc5.gif
very well, in it The Director of Personnel Resources at the Denver
headquarters noted that Bush had a "Military Service Obligation until
26 May 1974." As an "obligated reservist," There are no records that
he served this obligation, in fact In his annual evaluation report,
Bush's two supervising officers, Lieutenant Colonel
William D. Harris Jr. and Lieutenant Colonel Jerry B. Killian, made
it clear that Bush had "not been observed at" his Texas unit "during
the period of report" -- the twelve month period from May 1972
through the end of April 1973.
http://users.cis.net/coldfeet/doc4.gif
http://users.cis.net/coldfeet/doc9.gif
Furthermore, he has released his DD-214 (Honorable Discharge), which he
could not have obtained if he failed to meet his obligations.
Baloney, it proves he received an Honorable Discharge
that is all.
Larry
.
|
|
|
| User: "Fester" |
|
| Title: Re: Shame on the Swift Boat Veterans for Bush BY JIM RASSMAN, |
25 Aug 2004 06:50:04 PM |
|
|
"Lawrence Seib" <lseib@kuhub.cc.ukans.edu> wrote in message
news:75ab6396.0408250646.4b08c24@posting.google.com...
"Fester" <not@home.com> wrote in message
news:<QeuWc.7020$eu1.197065@twister.southeast.rr.com>...
"Lawrence Seib" <lseib@kuhub.cc.ukans.edu> wrote in message
news:75ab6396.0408230930.49911671@posting.google.com...
"Fester" <not@home.com> wrote in message
news:<ndbVc.179398$wH4.11701323@twister.southeast.rr.com>...
"Lawrence Seib" <lseib@kuhub.cc.ukans.edu> wrote in message
news:75ab6396.0408190618.7e7e0980@posting.google.com...
"Fester" <not@home.com> wrote in message
news:<ndbVc.179398$wH4.11701323@twister.southeast.rr.com>...
"Lawrence Seib" <lseib@kuhub.cc.ukans.edu> wrote in message
news:75ab6396.0408190618.7e7e0980@posting.google.com...
"Rhino" <rhino1@NOSPAM.sympatico.ca> wrote in message
news:<%sVUc.18383$ZI1.820929@news20.bellglobal.com>...
"Douglas Berry" <penguin_boy@mindOBVIOUSspring.com> wrote in
message
news:t7r7i0p91q7nivvl5j46nuootth7ck1qm4@4ax.com...
In our last thrilling episode, "Rhino"
<rhino1@NOSPAM.sympatico.ca>
was pushed over the cliffs of alt.atheism on Wed, 18 Aug 2004
17:42:12
-0400 by Zoog, minion of Zathar. As he fell, he screamed:
Yet you have no problem in slandering George W. Bush and the
Texas
National
Guard. Where's your concern for the comradeship of young
troops
and
officers
now?
No, we tell the truth about what Bush did. Nobody is
slandering
the
Air National Guard.
How does that work? If a criticism of John Kerry is a slander
against the whole of the US armed forces, how is it that a
criticism of Bush doesn't slander anyone but Bush? I think
the fact is that a slander of Bush is a slander of Bush alone
and a slander of Kerry is a slander of Kerry alone.
Slander implies false allegations. Since we can prove Shrub
did not show up at the national guard for over one year (1),
without
permission (2), it is not slander.
Not only can you not prove it, but Bush has already proven it to be
FALSE!
Here is the scanned copy of Bush's chronological listing of service,
http://users.cis.net/coldfeet/doc10.gif
notice that from from May 1, 1972 until April 30, 1973, a period of
twelve months, there are no days served. If he had served the
required
weekend a month, then he should have at lest 24 days plus the needed
to a two week camp, so he is missing 36 days.
Now he claims that he transfered to a Texas Air National Guard in
Montgomery, Alabama, but the transfer was denied.
http://users.cis.net/coldfeet/doc5.gif
So where is your proof that this is false. That is what I
thought.
You haven't proven that he was obligated to serve any time that he did
not.
You apparently did not read http://users.cis.net/coldfeet/doc5.gif
very well, in it The Director of Personnel Resources at the Denver
headquarters noted that Bush had a "Military Service Obligation until
26 May 1974." As an "obligated reservist," There are no records that
he served this obligation, in fact In his annual evaluation report,
Bush's two supervising officers, Lieutenant Colonel
William D. Harris Jr. and Lieutenant Colonel Jerry B. Killian, made
it clear that Bush had "not been observed at" his Texas unit "during
the period of report" -- the twelve month period from May 1972
through the end of April 1973.
http://users.cis.net/coldfeet/doc4.gif
http://users.cis.net/coldfeet/doc9.gif
Furthermore, he has released his DD-214 (Honorable Discharge), which he
could not have obtained if he failed to meet his obligations.
Baloney, it proves he received an Honorable Discharge
that is all.
A requirement of which is to complete his obligation. I doubt that *any*
amount of evidence will move you from your prejudged opinion. Nonetheless,
here's some *more* corroboration:
http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=14805
.
|
|
|
|
| User: "Fred J. McCall" |
|
| Title: Re: Shame on the Swift Boat Veterans for Bush BY JIM RASSMAN, |
25 Aug 2004 10:27:00 AM |
|
|
(Lawrence Seib) wrote:
:"Fester" <not@home.com> wrote in message news:<QeuWc.7020$eu1.197065@twister.southeast.rr.com>...
:>
:> Furthermore, he has released his DD-214 (Honorable Discharge), which he
:> could not have obtained if he failed to meet his obligations.
:
:Baloney, it proves he received an Honorable Discharge
:that is all.
They don't give them to you if you failed to satisfactorily complete
your obligated service, you stupid *****^Hll.
--
"False words are not only evil in themselves, but they infect the
soul with evil."
-- Socrates
.
|
|
|
| User: "Lawrence Seib" |
|
| Title: Re: Shame on the Swift Boat Veterans for Bush BY JIM RASSMAN, |
25 Aug 2004 08:31:55 PM |
|
|
Fred J. McCall <fmccall@earthlink.net> wrote in message news:<6qbpi0pc7m9kl5s4h6fei61al8rnd0m9k6@4ax.com>...
lseib@kuhub.cc.ukans.edu (Lawrence Seib) wrote:
:"Fester" <not@home.com> wrote in message news:<QeuWc.7020$eu1.197065@twister.southeast.rr.com>...
:>
:> Furthermore, he has released his DD-214 (Honor | | | | | | | | | | |
