| Topic: |
Religions > Atheism |
| User: |
"Franco" |
| Date: |
24 Jun 2004 06:43:41 PM |
| Object: |
SHOCKING: Religion in E.U. Constitution!! |
European Constitution.
---------------------------------------------------
PREAMBLE
Drawing inspiration from the cultural, RELIGIOUS, and humanist inheritance
of Europe,
from which have developed the universal values of the inviolable and
inalienable rights of
the human person, democracy, equality, freedom and the rule of law.
---------------------------------------------------
Everybody knows that European Religion is Christianity!!
That is simply SHOCKING. I have no words to comment that!!
Franco
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| User: "Jez" |
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| Title: Re: SHOCKING: Religion in E.U. Constitution!! |
25 Jun 2004 06:51:37 AM |
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"Franco" <englishenglish@tin.it> wrote in message
news:NGJCc.526095$rM4.21989247@news4.tin.it...
European Constitution.
---------------------------------------------------
PREAMBLE
Drawing inspiration from the cultural, RELIGIOUS, and humanist inheritance
of Europe,
from which have developed the universal values of the inviolable and
inalienable rights of
the human person, democracy, equality, freedom and the rule of law.
---------------------------------------------------
Everybody knows that European Religion is Christianity!!
That is simply SHOCKING. I have no words to comment that!!
The line says...'Drawing inspiration from'................
Whats wrong with that ?
The whole thing can be found here :
http://www.unizar.es/euroconstitucion/Treaties/Treaty_Const.htm
for those interested.
--
Jez
"The condition of alienation, of being asleep, of being unconscious,
of being out of one's mind, is the condition of the normal man. Society
highly values its normal man.It educates children to lose themselves
and to become absurd,and thus to be normal. Normal men have killed
perhaps 100,000,000 of their fellow normal men in the last fifty years."
R.D. Laing
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| User: "Franco" |
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| Title: Re: SHOCKING: Religion in E.U. Constitution!! |
25 Jun 2004 10:02:56 AM |
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Jez ha scritto nel messaggio
<40dc12ea$0$290$cc9e4d1f@news-text.dial.pipex.com>...
The line says...'Drawing inspiration from'................
Whats wrong with that ?
Myabe I'd better to write more about that preamble, so you can understand
that is very shocking!!
EUROPEAN CONSTITUTION
===============================
PREAMBLE
1. Drawing inspiration from the cultural, RELISIOUS, and humanist
inheritance of Europe, from which have developed the universal values of the
inviolable and inalienable rights of the human person, democracy, equality,
freedom and the rule of law.
2. Believing that Europe[...].
3. Convinced that, able while remaining proud[...].
4. Convinced that, thus[...].
5. Determined[...].
6. Grateful to the members [...].
HAVE DESIGNATED AS THEIR PLENIPOTENTIARES:
[list....]
WHO HAVING EXCHANGED THEIR FULL POWERS,
FOUND IN GOOD AND DUE FORM, HAVE AGREED AS FOLLOWS:
PARTE ONE
TITLE I: Definition and objectives of the Union.
========================================
As you can see, the preamble "have designated as thier
plenipotentiares(list..)
Who having exchanged thier full powers, found inf good and due form, have
agreed as follows.
And follows the European Constitution titles, articles and so on.
That is like a sentence, that is as a State emit a law, like a parliament
that emit a law.
They see the law, and after that, they emit the sentence.
For instance:
In the name of the queen we have seen the articles 23, 23, (and so on...)
we condemnd you (and so on.....)
Or:
In the name of the X people, we have seen the articles 23 34 45 64(and so
on...)
and.........we promulgate (law about something).
In this case, they have invented a preamble to give power to the
plenipotentiares who have exchanged thier full powers, found in good and due
form, have agreed as follows: EUROPEN CONSTITUTION.
The first article of the preamble is:
Drawing inspiration from the cultural, RELIGIOUS and humanist inheritance,
FROM WHICH(pay attention) have developed the universal values of the
inviolable and inalienable rights of the human person(from religion??),
democracy(from religion??), equality(from religion??) freedom(from
religion??) the rule of law(from religion??).
They are a great liar!!
Religious has been against democracy, freedom, equality, rights of the human
person, the rule of law.
That is the inheritance from French Revolution, ENLIGHTENMENT 1700.
This european constitution derives from RELIGION, from GOD. And in Europe
the most important GOD is JESUS CHRIST, an half god!!
European constitution draw inspiration from an HALF GOD.
That is simply shocking!!
I'm going not to vote for it. And i suggest atheists and agnostics to do the
same.
Regards,
Franco
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| User: "Uncle Dollar Bill" |
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| Title: Re: SHOCKING: Religion in E.U. Constitution!! |
25 Jun 2004 09:26:07 PM |
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In alt.atheism on Fri, 25 Jun 2004 15:02:56 GMT, "Franco"
<englishenglish@tin.it> wrote:
Jez ha scritto nel messaggio
<40dc12ea$0$290$cc9e4d1f@news-text.dial.pipex.com>...
The line says...'Drawing inspiration from'................
Whats wrong with that ?
Myabe I'd better to write more about that preamble, so you can understand
that is very shocking!!
You're not exactly an MBA, are you?
--
L8r,
Uncle Dollar Bill
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| User: "Paul Holbach" |
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| Title: Re: SHOCKING: Religion in E.U. Constitution!! |
28 Jun 2004 03:16:42 PM |
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"Franco" <englishenglish@tin.it> wrote in message news:<
NGJCc.526095$rM4.21989247@news4.tin.it>...
European Constitution.
---------------------------------------------------
PREAMBLE
Drawing inspiration from the cultural, RELIGIOUS, and humanist inheritance
of Europe,
from which have developed the universal values of the inviolable and
inalienable rights of
the human person, democracy, equality, freedom and the rule of law.
---------------------------------------------------
Everybody knows that European Religion is Christianity!!
That is simply SHOCKING. I have no words to comment that!!
Being an atheist, I share your opinion; but weīd better be glad that,
thanks to the French government, thereīs at least no explicit
reference to God, which the Christian factions stubbornly intended to
include in the preamble!
Of course, I wouldīve preferred a formulation such as the following:
"Drawing inspiration from the cultural, religious, non-religious, and
humanist inheritance of Europe, ..."
PH
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| User: "Jenny6833A" |
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| Title: Re: SHOCKING: Religion in E.U. Constitution!! |
28 Jun 2004 03:24:16 PM |
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European Constitution.
---------------------------------------------------
PREAMBLE
Drawing inspiration from the ...
It's not a constitution, just another treaty.
To take effect, it must first be ratified by every one of signatory countries.
The odds of that happening are near zero.
:-)
Jenny
Before emailing, remove Clothes
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| User: "Jez" |
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| Title: Re: SHOCKING: Religion in E.U. Constitution!! |
28 Jun 2004 05:30:43 PM |
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"Jenny6833A" <jenny6833a@aol.comClothes> wrote in message
news:20040628162416.05675.00000628@mb-m14.aol.com...
European Constitution.
---------------------------------------------------
PREAMBLE
Drawing inspiration from the ...
It's not a constitution, just another treaty.
To take effect, it must first be ratified by every one of signatory
countries.
The odds of that happening are near zero.
:-)
One of the joys of the EU !!!
--
Jez
"The condition of alienation, of being asleep, of being unconscious,
of being out of one's mind, is the condition of the normal man. Society
highly values its normal man.It educates children to lose themselves
and to become absurd,and thus to be normal. Normal men have killed
perhaps 100,000,000 of their fellow normal men in the last fifty years."
R.D. Laing
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| User: "Keenan Clay Wilkie" |
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| Title: Re: SHOCKING: Religion in E.U. Constitution!! |
29 Jun 2004 12:27:40 PM |
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"Jez" <iced_spear@AwaySPAMdsl.pipex.com> writes:
"Jenny6833A" <jenny6833a@aol.comClothes> wrote in message
news:20040628162416.05675.00000628@mb-m14.aol.com...
European Constitution.
---------------------------------------------------
PREAMBLE
Drawing inspiration from the ...
It's not a constitution, just another treaty.
To take effect, it must first be ratified by every one of signatory
countries.
The odds of that happening are near zero.
:-)
One of the joys of the EU !!!
What, are you suggesting that the countries of the EU aren't going to
unite in a single, one-voiced entity? That the doomsayers who claim that
the EU is the new "Roman Empire" as referenced in the book of Revelation
are all wrong?
--
See the documented lies of Pastor Frank: http://tinyurl.com/6009
http://www.virginiaisforhaters.org/
d a r k s t a r @ i g l o u . c o m | atheist #29
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| User: "Douglas Berry" |
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| Title: Re: SHOCKING: Religion in E.U. Constitution!! |
24 Jun 2004 11:02:37 PM |
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Great Lord "Franco" <englishenglish@tin.it>, braving the raging storm,
scaled the mighty crag called alt.atheism on Thu, 24 Jun 2004 23:43:41
GMT and screamed this to the uncaring Gods.
Everybody knows that European Religion is Christianity!!
This will be news to the Jews, Muslims, and various and sundry pagans
that have occupied Europe since before the Romans got organized.
--
Douglas E. Berry Do the OBVIOUS thing to send e-mail
Atheist #2147, Atheist Vet #5
"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as
when they do it from religious conviction."
Blaise Pascal (1623-1662), Pense'es, #894.
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| User: "Franco" |
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| Title: Re: SHOCKING: Religion in E.U. Constitution!! |
25 Jun 2004 05:45:26 AM |
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Douglas Berry ha scritto nel messaggio ...
Great Lord "Franco" <englishenglish@tin.it>, braving the raging storm,
scaled the mighty crag called alt.atheism on Thu, 24 Jun 2004 23:43:41
GMT and screamed this to the uncaring Gods.
Everybody knows that European Religion is Christianity!!
This will be news to the Jews, Muslims, and various and sundry pagans
that have occupied Europe since before the Romans got organized.
Democracy from Muslims?:)
Have you read that preamble?
They are referring to christianity and jewish.
We have an european constitution that draws its values from RELIGION, from
christianity and jewish.
And RELIGION means GOD!!!!!!!!!
I hope that people understand that is a shocking thing.
I think that atheists and agnostics(this is my opinion) won't accept this
preamble.
Regards,
Franco
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| User: "Douglas Berry" |
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| Title: Re: SHOCKING: Religion in E.U. Constitution!! |
25 Jun 2004 11:32:44 AM |
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Great Lord "Franco" <englishenglish@tin.it>, braving the raging storm,
scaled the mighty crag called alt.atheism on Fri, 25 Jun 2004 10:45:26
GMT and screamed this to the uncaring Gods.
Douglas Berry ha scritto nel messaggio ...
Great Lord "Franco" <englishenglish@tin.it>, braving the raging storm,
scaled the mighty crag called alt.atheism on Thu, 24 Jun 2004 23:43:41
GMT and screamed this to the uncaring Gods.
Everybody knows that European Religion is Christianity!!
This will be news to the Jews, Muslims, and various and sundry pagans
that have occupied Europe since before the Romans got organized.
Democracy from Muslims?:)
Have you read that preamble?
They are referring to christianity and jewish.
Nope. Here it is again:
"Drawing inspiration from the cultural, RELIGIOUS, and humanist
inheritance of Europe,"
The constitution draws from all of Europe's history, all the cultural,
religious, and humanist influences that make Europe what it is tofay.
I see no reference to Christianity or Judaism there.. just religion
(followed immediately by a reference to humanist thought.)
And RELIGION means GOD!!!!!!!!!
No *****.
I hope that people understand that is a shocking thing.
Only to you.
I think that atheists and agnostics(this is my opinion) won't accept this
preamble.
Oddly, you seem to be the only person on Earth this worked up about
it.
Now, a question: Outside the preamble, are there any references to
religion in the Constitution? Any religious requirements? Are you
required to be of a certain faith to hold office or enjoy the rights
confered by European citizenship? Is God or religion even mentioned?
--
Douglas E. Berry Do the OBVIOUS thing to send e-mail
Atheist #2147, Atheist Vet #5
"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as
when they do it from religious conviction."
Blaise Pascal (1623-1662), Pense'es, #894.
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| User: "Paul Holbach" |
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| Title: Re: SHOCKING: Religion in E.U. Constitution!! |
28 Jun 2004 03:19:18 PM |
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Douglas Berry <penguin_boy@mindOBVIOUSspring.com> wrote in message
news:<ilkod01he8du8mjjg89qgl5akhd0oejkdb@4ax.com>...
I see no reference to Christianity or Judaism there.. just religion
Thatīs like saying "I see no reference to physics or chemistry--just
to natural science"!
PH
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| User: "Douglas Berry" |
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| Title: Re: SHOCKING: Religion in E.U. Constitution!! |
28 Jun 2004 07:14:56 PM |
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Great Lord (Paul Holbach), braving the
raging storm, scaled the mighty crag called alt.atheism on 28 Jun 2004
13:19:18 -0700 and screamed this to the uncaring Gods.
Douglas Berry <penguin_boy@mindOBVIOUSspring.com> wrote in message
news:<ilkod01he8du8mjjg89qgl5akhd0oejkdb@4ax.com>...
I see no reference to Christianity or Judaism there.. just religion
Thatīs like saying "I see no reference to physics or chemistry--just
to natural science"!
Yup. And natural science includes many other disciplines. Just like
"religion" refers to all the beliefs found in Europe.
--
Douglas E. Berry Do the OBVIOUS thing to send e-mail
Atheist #2147, Atheist Vet #5
"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as
when they do it from religious conviction."
Blaise Pascal (1623-1662), Pense'es, #894.
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| User: "Paul Holbach" |
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| Title: Re: SHOCKING: Religion in E.U. Constitution!! |
29 Jun 2004 10:53:22 PM |
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Douglas Berry <penguin_boy@mindOBVIOUSspring.com> wrote in message
news:<m1d1e054ej33e1223kdjuvljjlpfidnj0c@4ax.com>...
Paul Holbach (paulholbachSPAMBAN@freenet.de) wrote:
Douglas Berry <penguin_boy@mindOBVIOUSspring.com> wrote in message
news:<ilkod01he8du8mjjg89qgl5akhd0oejkdb@4ax.com>...
I see no reference to Christianity or Judaism there.. just religion
Thatīs like saying "I see no reference to physics or chemistry--just
to natural science"!
Yup. And natural science includes many other disciplines. Just like
"religion" refers to all the beliefs found in Europe.
You seem to have misconstrued my meaning somehow!
Would you agree with me that the impact of eg Buddhism, which happens
to be found in Europe nowadays, on European history was pretty low?!
Letīs not be naive, the reference to the "religious inheritance" of
Europe is in fact nothing but an implicit reference to the
Judaeo-Christian tradition and to no other religions!
Regards
PH
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| User: "Franco" |
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| Title: Re: UK are against Europe. |
30 Jun 2004 06:41:28 AM |
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Paul Holbach ha scritto nel messaggio
Letīs not be naive, the reference to the "religious inheritance" of
Europe is in fact nothing but an implicit reference to the
Judaeo-Christian tradition and to no other religions!
That's what I'm saying. Let's face it, "religious inheritance" means "
judaeo christian ineheritage".
But I let's face it again, Uk inhabitans,(english, scottish, welsh) couldn't
care less about european constitution.
Most of users of alt atheism and alt agnosticism are uk inhabitans, and they
could care less about that preamble, because english, scottish and welsh
think about themselves and not about europe.
I'm interested and I care about that preamble. But UK people is not
interested, so they talk without think it over. That's all!!
Best Regards,
Franco
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| User: "Jez" |
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| Title: Re: UK are against Europe. |
30 Jun 2004 10:01:57 AM |
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"Franco" <englishenglish@tin.it> wrote in message
news:IFxEc.396892$hc5.17119555@news3.tin.it...
Paul Holbach ha scritto nel messaggio
Letīs not be naive, the reference to the "religious inheritance" of
Europe is in fact nothing but an implicit reference to the
Judaeo-Christian tradition and to no other religions!
That's what I'm saying. Let's face it, "religious inheritance" means "
judaeo christian ineheritage".
But I let's face it again, Uk inhabitans,(english, scottish, welsh)
couldn't
care less about european constitution.
Not so ! I want the UK to be fully involved with the EU...
Wales especially..
Most of users of alt atheism and alt agnosticism are uk inhabitans, and
they
could care less about that preamble, because english, scottish and welsh
think about themselves and not about europe.
How do you know this ? Go see what the Welsh assembley say about Europe..
Some bits... http://www.wales.gov.uk/subieurope/index.htm
I'm interested and I care about that preamble. But UK people is not
interested, so they talk without think it over. That's all!!
We couldn't be taxed so badly if we were in Europe fully...
Monbiot raises some good points....
http://www.monbiot.com/archives/2000/03/23/the-rich-walk-away/
--
Jez
"The condition of alienation, of being asleep, of being unconscious,
of being out of one's mind, is the condition of the normal man. Society
highly values its normal man.It educates children to lose themselves
and to become absurd,and thus to be normal. Normal men have killed
perhaps 100,000,000 of their fellow normal men in the last fifty years."
R.D. Laing
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| User: "Franco" |
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| Title: Re: SHOCKING: Religion in E.U. Constitution!! |
29 Jun 2004 08:25:04 PM |
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Douglas Berry ha scritto nel messaggio ...
Thatīs like saying "I see no reference to physics or chemistry--just
to natural science"!
Yup. And natural science includes many other disciplines. Just like
"religion" refers to all the beliefs found in Europe.
--
You're claiming that european culture is a religious culture. Or a
humanistic culture.
That is what preamble says!!
Where is rationalism? Where is atheism? Where is agnosticism?
If the problem is about something that join europe, we could as well talk
about the culture of war, the culture of music, no to mention the culture of
science.
But they mentioned religion and humanism. That is not a good thing.
I'm an atheist and I can't help thinking that european governements have
found only some right words to get that preamble good enough for every
religion.
That's the problem. They didn't want some religion complaining, so the
didn't wrote: "Christianity"! They were thinking about Tureky, and Israel
too.
So, they changed "christianity" to "religion".
That's all.
And religion means "deities"!!
I'm sure that English aren't going to vote that. They like to stay alone,
without euro, or european constitution.
So, English, couldn't care less about what they have written in the
preamble. They do not care about europe.
I'm saying that, because most of people on alt atheism and alt agnosticism
are English,UK!
Best Regards,
Franco
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| User: "Franco" |
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| Title: Re: SHOCKING: Religion in E.U. Constitution!! |
25 Jun 2004 12:03:42 PM |
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Douglas Berry ha scritto nel messaggio ...
They are referring to christianity and jewish.
Nope. Here it is again:
"Drawing inspiration from the cultural, RELIGIOUS, and humanist
inheritance of Europe,"
Drawing inspiration FROM the cultural, RELIGIOUS and humanist ineheritance
of Europe.
This is the first article of the preamble, the most important article of the
preamble.
Pay attention!!
Now, I eliminate the words "culturale" and "humanist" Ok?
Let's see.
"Drawing INSPIRATION from the religious inheritance of Europe"!!
Here are the christians origin, the muslim origin, the jewish origin, in
other words, there is the RELIGIOUS origin.
I won't vote a constitution that draw inheritance from christianity,
hebraism, muslims, and so on!!
I'm an atheist, and as an atheist my constitution can't be a constitution
that draw inspiration from religion, from god!!
They could draq inspiration from PEOPLE, and not from GOD.
Why did they have to draw inspiration from religion?
We are living in 2004, and we can draw inspiration from our will!!
"Drawing inspiration from the WILL of European PEOPLE"
That is good.
We are going to vote for that constitution, not humanist, or religious, or
culture.
That first article of the preamble(please read the following too) is good
for religious, that's all!
Our origin are Greek origin. You can see that in language, in art, science,
philosophy and so on.
But they prefer to draw inpiration from religion, from god!!
Bye bye
Franco
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| User: "Douglas Berry" |
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| Title: Re: SHOCKING: Religion in E.U. Constitution!! |
25 Jun 2004 04:12:54 PM |
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Great Lord "Franco" <englishenglish@tin.it>, braving the raging storm,
scaled the mighty crag called alt.atheism on Fri, 25 Jun 2004 17:03:42
GMT and screamed this to the uncaring Gods.
Douglas Berry ha scritto nel messaggio ...
They are referring to christianity and jewish.
Nope. Here it is again:
"Drawing inspiration from the cultural, RELIGIOUS, and humanist
inheritance of Europe,"
Drawing inspiration FROM the cultural, RELIGIOUS and humanist ineheritance
of Europe.
This is the first article of the preamble, the most important article of the
preamble.
Pay attention!!
Now, I eliminate the words "culturale" and "humanist" Ok?
No, not ok. Since that's not what was written! They authors made it
clear that the constitution draws on all three sources.
Here are the christians origin, the muslim origin, the jewish origin, in
other words, there is the RELIGIOUS origin.
I won't vote a constitution that draw inheritance from christianity,
hebraism, muslims, and so on!!
Cool. Good for you. Too late, but good for you.
I'm an atheist, and as an atheist my constitution can't be a constitution
that draw inspiration from religion, from god!!
They could draq inspiration from PEOPLE, and not from GOD.
They do. Remember the "humanist ineheritance" portion?
Why did they have to draw inspiration from religion?
Because religion has been one of the major forces that shaped Europe
over the last 2000 years, maybe? Because the vast majority of your
fellow eurofolk are religious?
We are living in 2004, and we can draw inspiration from our will!!
"Drawing inspiration from the WILL of European PEOPLE"
That is good.
We are going to vote for that constitution, not humanist, or religious, or
culture.
That first article of the preamble(please read the following too) is good
for religious, that's all!
Our origin are Greek origin. You can see that in language, in art, science,
philosophy and so on.
Except for those of us who come from German roots.
But they prefer to draw inpiration from religion, from god!!
And history, and the humanists
--
Douglas E. Berry Do the OBVIOUS thing to send e-mail
Atheist #2147, Atheist Vet #5
"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as
when they do it from religious conviction."
Blaise Pascal (1623-1662), Pense'es, #894.
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