| Topic: |
Religions > Atheism |
| User: |
"" |
| Date: |
09 Aug 2005 06:19:46 PM |
| Object: |
Should Non-Catholics Run the Catholic Church? |
Should Non-Catholics Run the Catholic Church?
by Paul Gottfried
The announcement that a majority of Spanish bishops are urging the pope
to canonize Queen Isabella I has brought forth bellowing objections
from the usual sources, namely, leftwing victimologists who are
appalled that they have not been asked to endorse such decisions. A man
identified as the secretary general of the Spanish Jewish Federation,
Carlos Schorr, fumes that the church would consider for high honors
someone who had engaged in "religious persecution," though he adds that
not being a Catholic or being in charge of the church, the call is not
really his to make.
The same piece, published in a Jewish Global News Service, explains
that the consideration of Isabella for canonization is the latest in a
series of offenses that the church has recently inflicted on Jews and
other sensitive people. For example, the church canonized Edith Stein,
who died in a concentration camp as a Jewish woman but had previously
become a Catholic. And the church has the temerity to propose Pius XII
as a saint, despite the fact that "he was generally silent during the
Holocaust."
The collected gripes here reproduced have the value of one enormous
whine. Having studied the matter, I think Pius deserves praise
(canonization I leave to the church) precisely for his admirable
behavior in helping out Jews during the Holocaust. As for Edith Stein,
I suppose the same objection raised against her canonization could be
made just as easily against St. Paul, who abandoned the Jewish
community of his time by taking on Christian beliefs. I am also struck
by the fact that the Spanish Jewish leader quoted does not have a
Sephardic but a Central or Eastern European Jewish name. The
overwhelming odds are that his own ancestors were not driven out of
Spain after the conquest of Granada in 1492.
As far as I know, Sephardic Jews, those descended from the Jewish
families expelled by Ferdinand and Isabella, are not the ones now heard
complaining. The majority of Jewish refugees from the Iberian
Peninsula, from Portugal as well as Spain, landed up in the Levant and
are today a small part of the total Jewish population, despite their
production of such illustrious Westernized representatives as Spinoza,
David Ricardo, Georges Bizet, Judah Benjamin, and Benjamin Disraeli.
Sephardim should also not be confused with the generally hitherto poor
and usually badly educated Mizrachim, Jews from Arab countries who have
taken over the Sephardic book of prayers and share the same
pronunciation of Hebrew but are ethnically distinct from their
liturgical cousins. Sephardim were naturally and justifiably unhappy
about their treatment at the hands of a Spanish monarchy that at least
some of them had served. Less defensible is the screaming now pouring
out of those whose ancestors Isabella had not in any way victimized.
Although Isabella may not have been a Mother Theresa or an Edith Stein,
she is a figure who contributed mightily to the forging of a Spanish
national identity. (And there seems to be silence about her role, now
more politically correct, in reconquering Spain from the Muslims.) One
can understand why Basque separatists object to her canonization, the
same way that American Southerners before their recent lobotomization
resented the original cult of Abraham Lincoln, as a national
consolidator rather predecessor of Martin Luther King. Neither Louis IX
of France nor Stephen I of Hungary, nor Constantine in the Orthodox
Church, would strike one as a Christ-like figure or as a model of
religious tolerance.
But the church canonized such rulers in part as a way of affirming the
ties between itself and particular peoples. Such actions simply take
over the sacralization of national liberators and rulers practiced
among other groups, e.g., the Jewish veneration of David and Solomon or
the Jewish celebration on Chanukah of what became the consolidation of
Hasmonean rule, and indigenous Jewish tyranny before the Roman
occupation of the Jewish commonwealth.
Allow me, however, to suggest how Catholic leadership can spare itself
further embarrassment when it comes to beatifying and canonizing. It
should look for candidates like Julius and Ethel Rosenberg, Jewish
Communists who had cordial relations with the Soviet Union and who
therefore will not likely be accused of anti-Semitism and its supposed
twin evil, anti-Communism. No doubt if Pius XII has snuggled up to the
Commies instead of declaring them to be the "scourge of God," Cornwell
would not have had to invent a Nazi lineage for this unfortunate
figure.
Nor would Goldhagen be writing and publishing his screeds against Pius;
nor would the Franco-Greek Communist Costas Gavras be entertaining the
Paris haut monde with his new play "Amen" about Pius's supposedly
adamant refusal to resist Nazi anti-Semitism. Who, after all, cares
about the heavily documented record of ferocious anti-Semitism attached
to Karl Marx, unlike those recently publicized comments about Hollywood
Jewish leftists made by anti-Communist Christian Billy Graham, in
conversation with his fellow-anti-Communist and fellow-Christian,
Richard Nixon.
What makes one an anti-Semite and therefore unfit for canonization is
having the wrong politics. And certainly the Rosenbergs could not be
accused of that. For the anti-anti-Communists who push the victim
racket, these martyrs of anti-Semitic anti-Communism would be the
perfect Catholic saints as well as the perfect victims of McCarthyism.
One should add, providing this presumably saintly couple held the
proper views about immigration, gay marriage, and other now-burning
social questions.
Paul Gottfried is professor of history at Elizabethtown College and
author, most recently, of the highly recommended After Liberalism.
http://www.lewrockwell.com/gottfried/gottfried26.html
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: Should Non-Catholics Run the Catholic Church? |
10 Aug 2005 12:27:04 PM |
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In soc.history.medieval wrote:
Should Non-Catholics Run the Catholic Church?
by Paul Gottfried
The announcement that a majority of Spanish bishops are urging the pope
to canonize Queen Isabella I has brought forth bellowing objections
from the usual sources, namely, leftwing victimologists who are
appalled that they have not been asked to endorse such decisions. A man
identified as the secretary general of the Spanish Jewish Federation,
Carlos Schorr, fumes that the church would consider for high honors
someone who had engaged in "religious persecution," though he adds that
not being a Catholic or being in charge of the church, the call is not
really his to make.
Quite. The enemies of the Church never miss an opportunity to
attack the Church. Even against such a saintly person as Isabella
la Catolica, who never engaged in religious perseuction.
Axel
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| User: "Katt" |
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| Title: Re: Should Non-Catholics Run the Catholic Church? |
10 Aug 2005 01:06:57 PM |
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<axel@white-eagle.invalid.uk> wrote in message
news:INqKe.65$1i7.51@fe3.news.blueyonder.co.uk...
In soc.history.medieval wrote:
Should Non-Catholics Run the Catholic Church?
by Paul Gottfried
The announcement that a majority of Spanish bishops are urging the pope
to canonize Queen Isabella I has brought forth bellowing objections
from the usual sources, namely, leftwing victimologists who are
appalled that they have not been asked to endorse such decisions. A man
identified as the secretary general of the Spanish Jewish Federation,
Carlos Schorr, fumes that the church would consider for high honors
someone who had engaged in "religious persecution," though he adds that
not being a Catholic or being in charge of the church, the call is not
really his to make.
Quite. The enemies of the Church never miss an opportunity to
attack the Church.
I know *I* never do. Y'see: that way, it's *even*...
Even against such a saintly person as Isabella
la Catolica, who never engaged in religious perseuction.
That's right, munchkin: she never 'engaged in religious perseuction' [sic]
*at all*.
No way! Not her! Not 'Isabel La Católica'...!
When she authorised the Inquisition, she was just *joking*. The Jews then
expelled *themselves*, entirely by accident. And the forced conversions and
expulsions of Muslims happened merely as the result of an unfortunate
mis-translation of the word 'butter dish'.
Yeah, right.
I've said it before, and I'll say it again: *you people can't tell the
fucking truth about ANYTHING, can you*...?
Katt.
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| User: "Katt" |
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| Title: Re: Should Non-Catholics Run the Catholic Church? |
10 Aug 2005 01:07:50 PM |
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<axel@white-eagle.invalid.uk> wrote in message
news:INqKe.65$1i7.51@fe3.news.blueyonder.co.uk...
In soc.history.medieval wrote:
Should Non-Catholics Run the Catholic Church?
by Paul Gottfried
The announcement that a majority of Spanish bishops are urging the pope
to canonize Queen Isabella I has brought forth bellowing objections
from the usual sources, namely, leftwing victimologists who are
appalled that they have not been asked to endorse such decisions. A man
identified as the secretary general of the Spanish Jewish Federation,
Carlos Schorr, fumes that the church would consider for high honors
someone who had engaged in "religious persecution," though he adds that
not being a Catholic or being in charge of the church, the call is not
really his to make.
Quite. The enemies of the Church never miss an opportunity to
attack the Church.
I know *I* never do. Y'see: that way, it's *even*...
Even against such a saintly person as Isabella
la Catolica, who never engaged in religious perseuction.
That's right, munchkin: she never 'engaged in religious perseuction' [sic]
*at all*.
No way! Not her! Not 'Isabel La Católica'...!
When she authorised the Inquisition, she was just *joking*. The Jews then
expelled *themselves*, entirely by accident. And the forced conversions and
expulsions of Muslims happened merely as the result of an unfortunate
mis-translation of the word 'butter dish'.
Yeah, right.
I've said it before, and I'll say it again: *you people can't tell the
fucking truth about ANYTHING, can you*...?
Katt.
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: Should Non-Catholics Run the Catholic Church? |
10 Aug 2005 02:44:03 PM |
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In soc.history.medieval Katt <katt@office.commm> wrote:
In soc.history.medieval wrote:
Should Non-Catholics Run the Catholic Church?
by Paul Gottfried
The announcement that a majority of Spanish bishops are urging the pope
to canonize Queen Isabella I has brought forth bellowing objections
from the usual sources, namely, leftwing victimologists who are
appalled that they have not been asked to endorse such decisions. A man
identified as the secretary general of the Spanish Jewish Federation,
Carlos Schorr, fumes that the church would consider for high honors
someone who had engaged in "religious persecution," though he adds that
not being a Catholic or being in charge of the church, the call is not
really his to make.
Quite. The enemies of the Church never miss an opportunity to
attack the Church.
Even against such a saintly person as Isabella
la Catolica, who never engaged in religious perseuction.
When she authorised the Inquisition, she was just *joking*.
Your point being? The Inquisition essentially concerned itself with
Catholics.
The Jews then
expelled *themselves*, entirely by accident.
It was a necessary provision at the time.
And the forced conversions and
expulsions of Muslims happened merely as the result of an unfortunate
mis-translation of the word 'butter dish'.
Hardly anything different than anything that had been happening in
Spain in the previous 700 years or so.
Axel
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| User: "William Black" |
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| Title: Re: Should Non-Catholics Run the Catholic Church? |
11 Aug 2005 11:43:06 AM |
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<axel@white-eagle.invalid.uk> wrote in message
news:7OsKe.139$1i7.77@fe3.news.blueyonder.co.uk...
In soc.history.medieval Katt <katt@office.commm> wrote:
The Jews then
expelled *themselves*, entirely by accident.
It was a necessary provision at the time.
Can you expand on that please?
--
William Black
I've seen things you people wouldn't believe
Barbeques on fire by chalets past the headland
I've watched the gift shops glitter in the darkness off Newborough
All this will pass like ice-cream on the beach
Time for tea
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| User: "Susan Cohen" |
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| Title: Re: Should Non-Catholics Run the Catholic Church? |
11 Aug 2005 06:28:48 PM |
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"William Black" <abuse@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:ddfv31$4cs$1@news.freedom2surf.net...
<axel@white-eagle.invalid.uk> wrote in message
news:7OsKe.139$1i7.77@fe3.news.blueyonder.co.uk...
In soc.history.medieval Katt <katt@office.commm> wrote:
The Jews then
expelled *themselves*, entirely by accident.
It was a necessary provision at the time.
Can you expand on that please?
He's already tried to say that the Inquisition was "not Church policy" and
that no Jews were ever persecuted enough thatthey would pretend to be
Catholics just to get away from it.
Susan
--
William Black
I've seen things you people wouldn't believe
Barbeques on fire by chalets past the headland
I've watched the gift shops glitter in the darkness off Newborough
All this will pass like ice-cream on the beach
Time for tea
.
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: Should Non-Catholics Run the Catholic Church? |
12 Aug 2005 03:05:20 AM |
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In soc.history.medieval Susan Cohen <flaviaR@verizon.net> wrote:
"William Black" <abuse@hotmail.com> wrote in message
<axel@white-eagle.invalid.uk> wrote in message
In soc.history.medieval Katt <katt@office.commm> wrote:
The Jews then
expelled *themselves*, entirely by accident.
It was a necessary provision at the time.
Can you expand on that please?
He's already tried to say that the Inquisition was "not Church policy" and
I said no such thing.
Axel
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: Should Non-Catholics Run the Catholic Church? |
11 Aug 2005 12:22:44 PM |
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[follow-up - religious groups removed]
In soc.history.medieval William Black <abuse@hotmail.com> wrote:
<axel@white-eagle.invalid.uk> wrote in message
In soc.history.medieval Katt <katt@office.commm> wrote:
The Jews then
expelled *themselves*, entirely by accident.
It was a necessary provision at the time.
Can you expand on that please?
At the time Spain, or rather the Spanish kingdoms, were suffering
from grave internal problems in attempting to remain Catholic.
Apart from the Moors, a major problem was the conversos (those who
had converted to Catholicism). Some were genuine converts, others
mere frauds. The presence of a Jewish community always tended to
distract conversos from their newly adopted faith. It also tended,
despite royal edicts against the same, to lead to violence against
both conversos and Jews, which upset society as a whole. Added to
which was the history of the Jews having allied with the Moors.
Axel
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| User: "Katt" |
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| Title: Re: Should Non-Catholics Run the Catholic Church? |
10 Aug 2005 02:55:36 PM |
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<axel@white-eagle.invalid.uk> wrote in message
news:7OsKe.139$1i7.77@fe3.news.blueyonder.co.uk...
In soc.history.medieval Katt <katt@office.commm> wrote:
When she authorised the Inquisition, she was just *joking*.
Your point being? The Inquisition essentially concerned itself with
Catholics.
No: the Inquisition essentially concerned itself with *people*, you sad
piece of sub-moral drool.
The Jews then
expelled *themselves*, entirely by accident.
It was a necessary provision at the time.
Re-take: 'you sad piece of sub-moral, *semi-human* drool'.
And the forced conversions and
expulsions of Muslims happened merely as the result of an unfortunate
mis-translation of the word 'butter dish'.
Hardly anything different than anything that had been happening in
Spain in the previous 700 years or so.
Second re-take: 'you sad piece of sub-moral, semi-human *******'.
Questions?
Katt.
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| User: "Susan Cohen" |
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| Title: Re: Should Non-Catholics Run the Catholic Church? |
10 Aug 2005 04:47:54 PM |
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"Katt" <katt@office.commm> wrote in message
news:YYsKe.2241$U36.827@newsfe6-gui.ntli.net...
<axel@white-eagle.invalid.uk> wrote in message
news:7OsKe.139$1i7.77@fe3.news.blueyonder.co.uk...
[snip insane white-washing of Spanish (Q. Isabella) religious persecution]
Second re-take: 'you sad piece of sub-moral, semi-human *******'.
Yes, I was extremely wrong to think he was kidding.
Just when you think they can't get any dumber, they DO.
Susan
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: Should Non-Catholics Run the Catholic Church? |
10 Aug 2005 03:01:23 PM |
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In soc.history.medieval Katt <katt@office.commm> wrote:
No: the Inquisition essentially concerned itself with *people*, you sad
piece of sub-moral drool.
Re-take: 'you sad piece of sub-moral, *semi-human* drool'.
Second re-take: 'you sad piece of sub-moral, semi-human *******'.
Questions?
Who let you off your medication and gave you access to the Internet
- you are obviously incapable of rational discussion.
Axel
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| User: "Katt" |
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| Title: Re: Should Non-Catholics Run the Catholic Church? |
10 Aug 2005 03:07:29 PM |
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<axel@white-eagle.invalid.uk> wrote in message
news:n2tKe.288$1i7.105@fe3.news.blueyonder.co.uk...
In soc.history.medieval Katt <katt@office.commm> wrote:
No: the Inquisition essentially concerned itself with *people*, you sad
piece of sub-moral drool.
Re-take: 'you sad piece of sub-moral, *semi-human* drool'.
Second re-take: 'you sad piece of sub-moral, semi-human *******'.
Questions?
Who let you off your medication and gave you access to the Internet
- you are obviously incapable of rational discussion.
Rational discussion!!
LOLOLOL!!!!
No, I get it: you're from 'soc.history.medieval', right...?
*LOLOLOL*!!!!
Katt.
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| User: "Susan Cohen" |
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| Title: Re: Should Non-Catholics Run the Catholic Church? |
10 Aug 2005 04:46:38 PM |
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<axel@white-eagle.invalid.uk> wrote in message
news:7OsKe.139$1i7.77@fe3.news.blueyonder.co.uk...
In soc.history.medieval Katt <katt@office.commm> wrote:
In soc.history.medieval wrote:
Should Non-Catholics Run the Catholic Church?
by Paul Gottfried
The announcement that a majority of Spanish bishops are urging the pope
to canonize Queen Isabella I has brought forth bellowing objections
from the usual sources, namely, leftwing victimologists who are
appalled that they have not been asked to endorse such decisions. A man
identified as the secretary general of the Spanish Jewish Federation,
Carlos Schorr, fumes that the church would consider for high honors
someone who had engaged in "religious persecution," though he adds that
not being a Catholic or being in charge of the church, the call is not
really his to make.
Quite. The enemies of the Church never miss an opportunity to
attack the Church.
Even against such a saintly person as Isabella
la Catolica, who never engaged in religious perseuction.
When she authorised the Inquisition, she was just *joking*.
Your point being? The Inquisition essentially concerned itself with
Catholics.
Nope.
The Inquisition primarily went after the Jews they had coerced into
pretending to be Catholics to be left alone in the first place.
The Jews then
expelled *themselves*, entirely by accident.
It was a necessary provision at the time.
This oughta be good....
And the forced conversions and
expulsions of Muslims happened merely as the result of an unfortunate
mis-translation of the word 'butter dish'.
Hardly anything different than anything that had been happening in
Spain in the previous 700 years or so.
And this makes it okay & non-persecutorial....how?
Susan
Axel
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: Should Non-Catholics Run the Catholic Church? |
11 Aug 2005 06:23:30 AM |
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In soc.history.medieval Susan Cohen <flaviaR@verizon.net> wrote:
Your point being? The Inquisition essentially concerned itself with
Catholics.
Nope.
The Inquisition primarily went after the Jews they had coerced into
pretending to be Catholics to be left alone in the first place.
No. The inquisition never attempted to coerce Jews into becoming
Catholics. But those that did become Catholics fell under its
jurisdiction quite rightly.
Axel
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| User: "Susan Cohen" |
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| Title: Re: Should Non-Catholics Run the Catholic Church? |
11 Aug 2005 09:40:20 AM |
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<axel@white-eagle.invalid.uk> wrote in message
news:SyGKe.8120$1b6.7982@fe2.news.blueyonder.co.uk...
In soc.history.medieval Susan Cohen <flaviaR@verizon.net> wrote:
Your point being? The Inquisition essentially concerned itself with
Catholics.
Nope.
The Inquisition primarily went after the Jews they had coerced into
pretending to be Catholics to be left alone in the first place.
No. The inquisition never attempted to coerce Jews into becoming
Catholics.
They were part of the Church; the Church mixed into the politics of the day
& did just that.
But those that did become Catholics fell under its
jurisdiction quite rightly.
What part of "coerced into pretending to be Catholics so as to be left alone
in the first place" didn't you underastand?
Susan
Axel
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: Should Non-Catholics Run the Catholic Church? |
11 Aug 2005 10:13:32 AM |
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In soc.history.medieval Susan Cohen <flaviaR@verizon.net> wrote:
<axel@white-eagle.invalid.uk> wrote in message
In soc.history.medieval Susan Cohen <flaviaR@verizon.net> wrote:
Your point being? The Inquisition essentially concerned itself with
Catholics.
Nope.
The Inquisition primarily went after the Jews they had coerced into
pretending to be Catholics to be left alone in the first place.
No. The inquisition never attempted to coerce Jews into becoming
Catholics.
They were part of the Church; the Church mixed into the politics of the day
& did just that.
It was not the policy of the Church.
But those that did become Catholics fell under its
jurisdiction quite rightly.
What part of "coerced into pretending to be Catholics so as to be left alone
in the first place" didn't you underastand?
It is not a question of understanding, it is a question of not
agreeing with a certain historical interpretation which is not based
in reality.
Axel
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| User: "Susan Cohen" |
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| Title: Re: Should Non-Catholics Run the Catholic Church? |
11 Aug 2005 06:27:59 PM |
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<axel@white-eagle.invalid.uk> wrote in message
news:wWJKe.2196$1i7.1042@fe3.news.blueyonder.co.uk...
In soc.history.medieval Susan Cohen <flaviaR@verizon.net> wrote:
<axel@white-eagle.invalid.uk> wrote in message
In soc.history.medieval Susan Cohen <flaviaR@verizon.net> wrote:
Your point being? The Inquisition essentially concerned itself with
Catholics.
Nope.
The Inquisition primarily went after the Jews they had coerced into
pretending to be Catholics to be left alone in the first place.
No. The inquisition never attempted to coerce Jews into becoming
Catholics.
They were part of the Church; the Church mixed into the politics of the
day
& did just that.
It was not the policy of the Church.
You either are incredinbly naive or you are outright lying.
But those that did become Catholics fell under its
jurisdiction quite rightly.
What part of "coerced into pretending to be Catholics so as to be left
alone
in the first place" didn't you underastand?
It is not a question of understanding, it is a question of not
agreeing with a certain historical interpretation which is not based
in reality.
Oh, so you're LYING.
Okay - never mind!
Susan
Axel
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: Should Non-Catholics Run the Catholic Church? |
12 Aug 2005 03:09:41 AM |
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In soc.history.medieval Susan Cohen <flaviaR@verizon.net> wrote:
<axel@white-eagle.invalid.uk> wrote in message
In soc.history.medieval Susan Cohen <flaviaR@verizon.net> wrote:
<axel@white-eagle.invalid.uk> wrote in message
In soc.history.medieval Susan Cohen <flaviaR@verizon.net> wrote:
Your point being? The Inquisition essentially concerned itself with
Catholics.
Nope.
The Inquisition primarily went after the Jews they had coerced into
pretending to be Catholics to be left alone in the first place.
No. The inquisition never attempted to coerce Jews into becoming
Catholics.
They were part of the Church; the Church mixed into the politics of the
day
& did just that.
It was not the policy of the Church.
You either are incredinbly naive or you are outright lying.
If you have evidence to the contrary, please present it. I remain
by my statement that forced conversions were not official Church
policy.
But those that did become Catholics fell under its
jurisdiction quite rightly.
What part of "coerced into pretending to be Catholics so as to be left
alone
in the first place" didn't you underastand?
It is not a question of understanding, it is a question of not
agreeing with a certain historical interpretation which is not based
in reality.
Oh, so you're LYING.
I don't think so.
By the way, resorting to capitals in Usenet is normally the sign
of a kook.
Axel
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| User: "Susan Cohen" |
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| Title: Re: Should Non-Catholics Run the Catholic Church? |
10 Aug 2005 12:39:24 PM |
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<axel@white-eagle.invalid.uk> wrote in message
news:INqKe.65$1i7.51@fe3.news.blueyonder.co.uk...
In soc.history.medieval wrote:
Should Non-Catholics Run the Catholic Church?
by Paul Gottfried
The announcement that a majority of Spanish bishops are urging the pope
to canonize Queen Isabella I has brought forth bellowing objections
from the usual sources, namely, leftwing victimologists who are
appalled that they have not been asked to endorse such decisions. A man
identified as the secretary general of the Spanish Jewish Federation,
Carlos Schorr, fumes that the church would consider for high honors
someone who had engaged in "religious persecution," though he adds that
not being a Catholic or being in charge of the church, the call is not
really his to make.
Quite. The enemies of the Church never miss an opportunity to
attack the Church. Even against such a saintly person as Isabella
la Catolica, who never engaged in religious perseuction.
Hey, you're funny!
Susan
Axel
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Catholic Church is to canonize Queen Isabella of Spain ? |
11 Aug 2005 10:48:49 PM |
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wrote:
In soc.history.medieval wrote:
Should Non-Catholics Run the Catholic Church?
by Paul Gottfried
The announcement that a majority of Spanish bishops are urging the pope
to canonize Queen Isabella I has brought forth bellowing objections
from the usual sources, namely, leftwing victimologists who are
appalled that they have not been asked to endorse such decisions. A man
identified as the secretary general of the Spanish Jewish Federation,
Carlos Schorr, fumes that the church would consider for high honors
someone who had engaged in "religious persecution," though he adds that
not being a Catholic or being in charge of the church, the call is not
really his to make.
Quite. The enemies of the Church never miss an opportunity to
attack the Church. Even against such a saintly person as Isabella
la Catolica, who never engaged in religious perseuction.
Axel
WTF? The church really wants to canonize Isabella of Spain?
[googling]
I hoped that Ray made this up, but this seems to be real. These folks
are serious.
http://www.queenisabel.org
http://www.queenisabel.com/history-02.html
Isabel the Catholic - ready to shed her blood for the Church of Rome
Path to Rome, Nov. 2-4, 2001, Madrid, Spain,
Speaker: His Eminence Luis Cardinal Aponte Martinez
Servant of God Queen Isabel. When many people hear this name, they
often think of only one thing: the woman who sponsored Columbus'
discovery of the New World. But the Church does not declare a person to
be a Servant of God just for sponsoring an historic voyage. So the
question remains: why did the Church declare Queen Isabel the Catholic
to be a Servant of God? And why is it so important that the world know
more about this particular Servant of God?
Imagine that you have before your eyes a map of the world. Looking at
the map from heaven's perspective, we can imagine that the places
strong in the Catholic faith would shine out with special brilliance.
Ireland, for example, would be one such place. History shows that this
island owes its Faith and Catholic culture to St. Patrick, who is
rightly known as the Apostle of Ireland. This great country of Spain is
another good example. The Catholic Faith here is traced back to St.
James, the son of Zebedee, who is called the Apostle of Spain. But now
move your eyes west across the map, across the Atlantic, to the
Americas. How can we account for the fact that Spanish America, not
just a small island or a large peninsula, but a whole continent and a
large part of another, has been -- and is still -- predominantly
Catholic? Does history show that there was also an Apostle of the New
World?
After Columbus' first voyage to America, he reported to Queen Isabel
that, as far as he could see, there was not much promise of material
wealth in the lands he had visited. No mountains of gold or other
precious metals were to be seen. How did Queen Isabel the Catholic
respond to this news? Permit me to quote her exact words: "Although
there would be nothing but stones, I would continue there while there
may be souls to save." By these words, we see what was in the
Queen's heart. Much more than any possible monetary gain, it was her
zeal to spread the Catholic Faith that led Queen Isabel to sponsor
Columbus' expeditions. This truth, which is often left out of history
books, deserves to be made known: most of Spanish America is Catholic
because of Queen Isabel.
Our Lord and Savior said, we can know the tree by its fruits. So what
exactly were the fruits of Queen Isabel's faith? Thanks to Queen
Isabel, "the miracle has occurred that, today, over 300 million
people adore Christ and invoke the Virgin Mary using the vibrant
language of Castile...." Furthermore, as the author Nemesio Rodriguez
Lois points out, America "will soon be home to more than half of the
Catholics of the whole world. This is the reason for which recent Popes
have baptized these lands with the significant name of 'The Continent
of Hope.'" Truly, the great hope that this continent holds can be
traced back to the extraordinary virtues of Queen Isabel: her Hope of
bringing Christ to new peoples; her Charity in making laws to protect
these peoples from exploitation and enslavement; and her great Faith,
whose legacy still lives in South and Central America, Mexico, the
western United States, the Canary Islands and the Philippines, among
other places. The Archbishop of Valladolid, His Excellency Jose
Delicado Baeza, has pointed out the debt that the history of
evangelization owes to Queen Isabel: "much more than one third of the
faithful of the Catholic Church are in some way, directly or
indirectly, owed to that evangelizing spirit of the Queen. Such
missionary fruits can be attributed to few evangelizers in history."
[...]
Almighty Father, in Your infinite goodness, You made Queen Isabel the
Catholic a model for young ladies, wives, mothers, women leaders and
Government rulers. As the first sovereign and evangelizer of the
American continent, You granted to her heart a sense of piety, justice,
compassion, and the vision of a new land full of promise. Grant us the
grace to see Your infinite majesty glorified in her prompt
canonization, and through her intercession, grant all of the petitions
we carry in our hearts, that we ask of You in this present need through
Christ Our Lord. Amen.
Servant of God, Queen Isabel. Pray for us.
.
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| User: "Susan Cohen" |
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| Title: Re: Catholic Church is to canonize Queen Isabella of Spain ? |
12 Aug 2005 11:19:09 AM |
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<wonderful@Phreaker.net> wrote in message
news:1123818529.484741.128280@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
WTF? The church really wants to canonize Isabella of Spain?
[googling]
I hoped that Ray made this up, but this seems to be real. These folks
are serious.
Yup.
They also want to canonize a pope who personally approved of forcing Jewish
children to convert.
http://www.queenisabel.org
http://www.queenisabel.com/history-02.html
Isabel the Catholic - ready to shed her blood for the Church of Rome
But far more eager to shed everyone else's.
Path to Rome, Nov. 2-4, 2001, Madrid, Spain,
Speaker: His Eminence Luis Cardinal Aponte Martinez
Servant of God Queen Isabel. When many people hear this name, they
often think of only one thing: the woman who sponsored Columbus'
discovery of the New World. But the Church does not declare a person to
be a Servant of God just for sponsoring an historic voyage.
No, they make sure she expelled Jews & stole all their money & proprty to
finance the voyage, first.
Susan
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: Catholic Church is to canonize Queen Isabella of Spain ? |
12 Aug 2005 01:01:57 PM |
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In soc.history.medieval Susan Cohen <flaviaR@verizon.net> wrote:
Servant of God Queen Isabel. When many people hear this name, they
often think of only one thing: the woman who sponsored Columbus'
discovery of the New World. But the Church does not declare a person to
be a Servant of God just for sponsoring an historic voyage.
No, they make sure she expelled Jews & stole all their money & proprty to
finance the voyage, first.
You obviously have a tenuous grasp on historical reality.
Axel
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| User: "IKnowMoreThanYou" |
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| Title: Re: Catholic Church is to canonize Queen Isabella of Spain ? |
12 Aug 2005 03:32:13 PM |
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wrote:
axel@white-eagle.invalid.uk wrote:
In soc.history.medieval wrote:
Should Non-Catholics Run the Catholic Church?
by Paul Gottfried
The announcement that a majority of Spanish bishops are urging the pope
to canonize Queen Isabella I has brought forth bellowing objections
from the usual sources, namely, leftwing victimologists who are
appalled that they have not been asked to endorse such decisions. A man
identified as the secretary general of the Spanish Jewish Federation,
Carlos Schorr, fumes that the church would consider for high honors
someone who had engaged in "religious persecution," though he adds that
not being a Catholic or being in charge of the church, the call is not
really his to make.
Quite. The enemies of the Church never miss an opportunity to
attack the Church. Even against such a saintly person as Isabella
la Catolica, who never engaged in religious perseuction.
Axel
WTF? The church really wants to canonize Isabella of Spain?
Really?
When I read the posted article, the opening sentence read: "The
announcement that a majority of Spanish bishops are urging the pope..."
How did you interpret that as "The church really wants to canonize
Isabella of Spain"?
[googling]
I hoped that Ray made this up, but this seems to be real. These folks
are serious.
http://www.queenisabel.org
http://www.queenisabel.com/history-02.html
Isabel the Catholic - ready to shed her blood for the Church of Rome
Path to Rome, Nov. 2-4, 2001, Madrid, Spain,
Speaker: His Eminence Luis Cardinal Aponte Martinez
Servant of God Queen Isabel. When many people hear this name, they
often think of only one thing: the woman who sponsored Columbus'
discovery of the New World. But the Church does not declare a person to
be a Servant of God just for sponsoring an historic voyage. So the
question remains: why did the Church declare Queen Isabel the Catholic
to be a Servant of God? And why is it so important that the world know
more about this particular Servant of God?
Imagine that you have before your eyes a map of the world. Looking at
the map from heaven's perspective, we can imagine that the places
strong in the Catholic faith would shine out with special brilliance.
Ireland, for example, would be one such place. History shows that this
island owes its Faith and Catholic culture to St. Patrick, who is
rightly known as the Apostle of Ireland. This great country of Spain is
another good example. The Catholic Faith here is traced back to St.
James, the son of Zebedee, who is called the Apostle of Spain. But now
move your eyes west across the map, across the Atlantic, to the
Americas. How can we account for the fact that Spanish America, not
just a small island or a large peninsula, but a whole continent and a
large part of another, has been -- and is still -- predominantly
Catholic? Does history show that there was also an Apostle of the New
World?
After Columbus' first voyage to America, he reported to Queen Isabel
that, as far as he could see, there was not much promise of material
wealth in the lands he had visited. No mountains of gold or other
precious metals were to be seen. How did Queen Isabel the Catholic
respond to this news? Permit me to quote her exact words: "Although
there would be nothing but stones, I would continue there while there
may be souls to save." By these words, we see what was in the
Queen's heart. Much more than any possible monetary gain, it was her
zeal to spread the Catholic Faith that led Queen Isabel to sponsor
Columbus' expeditions. This truth, which is often left out of history
books, deserves to be made known: most of Spanish America is Catholic
because of Queen Isabel.
Our Lord and Savior said, we can know the tree by its fruits. So what
exactly were the fruits of Queen Isabel's faith? Thanks to Queen
Isabel, "the miracle has occurred that, today, over 300 million
people adore Christ and invoke the Virgin Mary using the vibrant
language of Castile...." Furthermore, as the author Nemesio Rodriguez
Lois points out, America "will soon be home to more than half of the
Catholics of the whole world. This is the reason for which recent Popes
have baptized these lands with the significant name of 'The Continent
of Hope.'" Truly, the great hope that this continent holds can be
traced back to the extraordinary virtues of Queen Isabel: her Hope of
bringing Christ to new peoples; her Charity in making laws to protect
these peoples from exploitation and enslavement; and her great Faith,
whose legacy still lives in South and Central America, Mexico, the
western United States, the Canary Islands and the Philippines, among
other places. The Archbishop of Valladolid, His Excellency Jose
Delicado Baeza, has pointed out the debt that the history of
evangelization owes to Queen Isabel: "much more than one third of the
faithful of the Catholic Church are in some way, directly or
indirectly, owed to that evangelizing spirit of the Queen. Such
missionary fruits can be attributed to few evangelizers in history."
[...]
Almighty Father, in Your infinite goodness, You made Queen Isabel the
Catholic a model for young ladies, wives, mothers, women leaders and
Government rulers. As the first sovereign and evangelizer of the
American continent, You granted to her heart a sense of piety, justice,
compassion, and the vision of a new land full of promise. Grant us the
grace to see Your infinite majesty glorified in her prompt
canonization, and through her intercession, grant all of the petitions
we carry in our hearts, that we ask of You in this present need through
Christ Our Lord. Amen.
Servant of God, Queen Isabel. Pray for us.
.
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| User: "Steve Knight" |
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| Title: Re: Catholic Church is to canonize Queen Isabella of Spain ? |
12 Aug 2005 09:01:54 PM |
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On 11 Aug 2005 20:48:49 -0700, wrote:
WTF? The church really wants to canonize Isabella of Spain?
Gee whiz.
What a shocker.............
They'd canonize Porky Pig if he ***** gold for them.
Warlord Steve
BAAWA
www.sonic.net/~wooly
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| User: "Julian Richards" |
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| Title: Re: Should Non-Catholics Run the Catholic Church? |
10 Aug 2005 04:00:07 AM |
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On 9 Aug 2005 16:19:46 -0700, wrote:
Should Non-Catholics Run the Catholic Church?
No. The Catholic Church has survived so long because the management
don't bring their sons into the business.
--
Julian Richards
medieval "at" richardsuk.f9.co.uk
www.richardsuk.f9.co.uk
Website of "Robot Wars" middleweight "Broadsword IV"
THIS MESSAGE WAS POSTED FROM SOC.HISTORY.MEDIEVAL
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| User: "Susan Cohen" |
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| Title: Re: Should Non-Catholics Run the Catholic Church? |
10 Aug 2005 08:39:34 AM |
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Please take off-topic groups out of this thread.
(correct f-u's set)
Susan
"Julian Richards" <see@sig.co.uk> wrote in message
news:qegjf15fvm185fq6qnpo0pkhi61i2lpn04@4ax.com...
On 9 Aug 2005 16:19:46 -0700, wrote:
Should Non-Catholics Run the Catholic Church?
No. The Catholic Church has survived so long because the management
don't bring their sons into the business.
--
Julian Richards
medieval "at" richardsuk.f9.co.uk
www.richardsuk.f9.co.uk
Website of "Robot Wars" middleweight "Broadsword IV"
THIS MESSAGE WAS POSTED FROM SOC.HISTORY.MEDIEVAL
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