| Topic: |
Religions > Atheism |
| User: |
"Bill" |
| Date: |
08 Jan 2005 02:29:22 PM |
| Object: |
Should we believe in Gods? |
Do any real Gods exist? If so, are they all good, all powerful, benevolent
and caring?
Why do people not insist on at least some modicum of objective evidence that
'their' God is the true and real God instead of just taking the word of
other errant men? Nothing in life is more important, other than food, water
and shelter. A full life on earth and in eternity is dependent on being
correct!
Most importantly, if there is a real God, why does the real God permit the
confusion and dedication of people following fake or false Gods to exist?
Each religion believes that only their God is the real God. If any of these
Gods were a real God and creator of the Universe and everything in it; why
doesn't he inform us clearly and directly that he or it is the "real" God
and that all the others are fakes and imposters? Why does he not expose and
smite the promoters of false Gods? Why would he use errant men to deliver
this most important information?
It is now known that the Universe is in excess of 20 BILLION LIGHT YEARS in
diameter. Light travels at 186,000 MILES PER SECOND. We do not have the
instrumentation to determine how much greater it is. It could be infinity.
This means the Earth is but a speck of dust in size compared to the
Universe. And people are in size but specks of dust on the Earth.
Evidence indicates the age of the Universe to be at least 14 BILLION YEARS.
The scientific evidence is that the world is over 4 BILLION YEARS old.
Archaeological evidence is that man has existed on the earth for
approximately 150,000 years. When the various books of the Bible were
written, mankind believed the earth was flat and that the Sun, Stars and
Planets revolved around the Earth. We now know that the Earth, Stars and
Planets revolve around the Sun and the Earth is but a speck of dust in the
unimaginably vast Universe.
This knowledge is based on a wealth of objective scientific evidence whose
accuracy is supported by factual data; not parables, folklore or mythology.
In the overall scheme of the Universe, man appears to be totally
inconsequential. This certainly does not support the existence of current
God claims.
Why do God's worshippers and followers suffer with and die of the same
diseases, afflictions and accidents as the non-believers?
Millions of men, women and totally innocent children have been
indiscriminately killed and maimed by Hurricanes, Typhoons, Tsunamis, Tidal
Waves, Cyclones, Earthquakes, Volcanic eruptions, Airplane crashes, Train
wrecks and other disasters.
Why did God permit people ( and innocent children ) of all, and no,
religious beliefs, and of all degrees of goodness and wickedness, to be
indiscriminately killed and injured? Why are not just the wicked punished?
If God is all-merciful why do perfectly innocent children die in the womb or
be born with serious handicaps like blindness, deafness, paralysis,
imbeciles,
joined at the head or body with their twin, be ugly, pretty etc??
Why has God created hundreds of diseases and handicaps that afflict the
good, and the innocent along with the evil?
Why does God put humans on earth with many afflictions, diseases, handicaps,
suffering etc., for a limited period of time, and then let them go to a
joyous eternal life in heaven? Is God sadistic and enjoys suffering? Why not
skip the brutal part?
There is no objective evidence that people of any particular religious
belief, or no religious belief, live any healthier, happier or longer lives.
There is no objective evidence that people of any particular religious
belief, or no religious belief, are wealthier or poorer.
There is no objective proven evidence of any 'dead person' communicating
with conscious friends, relatives or anyone else - only unsubstantiated
claims and opinions. Have your dead friends or relatives communicated with
you? Dreams, illusions and fantasies are not objective evidence.
There is no objective proven evidence of God communicating directly with any
person - only unsubstantiated and unproven claims and opinions.
The Bible (old and new testaments), the Koran, Bhagavad-Gita, Zend-Avesta
and other man created documents are not OBJECTIVE EVIDENCE. They are merely,
old unproven and frequently contradictory opinions created and expressed by
errant men.
There are too many religious belief systems to list. Here are just the major
current belief systems: Christianity, Mormonism, Islam, Hinduism, Judaism,
Sikhism, Buddhism, Zoroastrianism. Within each of these are schisms with
hundreds of variations of the beliefs in all these religions.
Over the centuries people have believed in and adored hundreds of different
Gods. Were any of them really God? If so, which one?
The Bible was not dictated by god to mortal scribes; it was
written and embellished by some 40 authors - claimed prophets, kings,
politicians and clergymen in a variety of styles over a period of three
thousand years. Non of the present books of the Bible are the original
documents which no longer exist. The printing press was not invented till
600 years ago. Prior to that time all copies of the bible were hand copied
by scribes; copied, interpreted, misinterpreted and distorted as they
wished.
They were written in Hebrew, Greek (vernacular), Aramaic, Syriac, Coptic
and Latin. On stone, wood, clay, goatskin and papyrus.
It is an amalgam of history, folklore, mythology and fiction. They are so
abstruse that almost any interpretation that one likes can be claimed.
It is a strange mixture of diverse human documents, metaphors, allegories,
history and fables and irreconcilable notions. Inspired? The Bible is not
even intelligent. It is not even good craftsmanship, and is full of
absurdities and contradictions.
Man has existed on earth for 150,000 years. Why did the Christian and Jewish
Gods wait about 147,000 years to bring the word of their God to mankind?
Why haven't these Gods communicated with us again in the last 20 centuries?
Ancient documents claiming knowledge of the existence of Gods or the word of
God is not proof of anything. It is merely man's mythical beliefs and
opinions at that time.
More recent beliefs and religions have evolved such as Mormonism. Joseph
Smith created this religion in 1830 based on his Book of Mormon. He believed
in polygamy and that God has evolved from man and men could evolve into
Gods.
Why do people believe in hundreds of different Gods and religious systems?
How do we know which, if any, is the right one?
Why doesn't the supposed "real God" communicate directly with all of mankind
in a clear and easily understood manner and tell us which religion and
religious beliefs are true and which are fakes and false?
If man, who was supposedly created by god, can efficiently and clearly
communicate with almost the whole world via phone, radio and satellite TV;
why can't the real God communicate in at least as effective a manner? He
could even command free time on International radio and TV! Why doesn't he
tell us clearly, directly and effectively, that he is the real God and what
he expects of us and what rewards we will receive if we obey his demands?
Does God not want to talk to us and assure us he is the real God?
Could it be that these crude, fake and indirect God communications occurred
because it was before the invention of TV and radio and these communications
were not from any real God at all?
Why does God not let those that have died, and gone to a so-called heaven,
communicate with the living and authenticate this eternal life in a castle
in the sky?
Why does he use thousands of errant humans to pass on his word in vague,
abstruse and contradictory manor? Why does he not at least tell us clearly
and
directly which, of all the thousands of preachers, are the ones that truly
represent him?
Why does God not permit the dead parents, relatives and friends to
accurately
communicate his word to the living? What is the purpose of preventing
communication between the living and those in this claimed Heaven and Hell?
Why does much of mankind feel it is so compelling to create imaginary Gods
and an here after instead of accepting the reality that we just do no know
the facts of the Universe, it's boundaries, it's origin or it's destination?
Creating imaginary origins and destinations does no solve the quandary. It
is merely substituting one set of fears for another.
Why live our lives fighting false fears? The finality of death should be no
more frightening than the finality at the end of the day when we go to
sleep. If we fail to wake up we cannot have any regrets or suffering because
our senses no longer exist. There can be no pain, suffering or regrets after
this finality. The real fear should be in being trapped in the painful and
oppressive shear boredom of existing for an eternity.
The evidence is rather strong that no Gods created man, but that man created
Gods. It appears that religious believers are wasting their time and money
on a fools paradise!
From "The Rubaiyat" - by Omar Khayyam
"Yesterday this days madness did prepare:
Tomorrow's silence, triumph, or despair:
Drink! For you know not whence you came, nor why;
Drink! For you know not why you go nor where.
Bill
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| User: "Levy Oates" |
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| Title: Re: Should we believe in Gods? |
09 Jan 2005 12:14:54 AM |
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On Sun, 09 Jan 2005 01:02:54 GMT, Pastor Dave
<newsgroupmail@nospam-tampabay.rr.com> wrote:
How do you verify that there is no God?
How do you verify that there is no Tooth Fairy...and at least she does something
useful.
---------
Levy Oates
http://www.angelfire.com/alt/bumblism/
.
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| User: "FreeThink" |
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| Title: Re: Should we believe in Gods? |
08 Jan 2005 11:33:04 PM |
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I don't think we are equipped to make a conclusion about a Gods
existence. The God(s) that are defined most often are ones that are so
distant from our understanding we cannot be at all confident in our
evidence. I could answer most of your statements with, "Why not?". Why
should God not have us suffer? Because we don't like it?, etc. Why
would we be so capable of understanding God that we could even start
speculating about or on it or him?
I think the fundamental thing that leads people to believe in God is
the need to HAVE to know. To have to resolve their lack of
understanding about injustice, existence, etc. no matter how many
baseless assumptions are required. We should avoid that temptation when
trying to invalidate God(s) as well.
.
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| User: "duke" |
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| Title: Re: Should we believe in Gods? |
09 Jan 2005 09:20:20 AM |
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On Sat, 08 Jan 2005 20:29:22 GMT, "Bill" <wmech@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
Do any real Gods exist? If so, are they all good, all powerful, benevolent
and caring?
Just one.
Why do people not insist on at least some modicum of objective evidence that
'their' God is the true and real God instead of just taking the word of
other errant men?
Sounds like one atheist talking to another. "I don't believe, do you? No. Ok,
so there's no God".
Most importantly, if there is a real God, why does the real God permit the
confusion and dedication of people following fake or false Gods to exist?
He gave you a free will to choose him out of love. It's your choice, go for it.
It is now known that the Universe is in excess of 20 BILLION LIGHT YEARS in
diameter. Light travels at 186,000 MILES PER SECOND. We do not have the
instrumentation to determine how much greater it is. It could be infinity.
This means the Earth is but a speck of dust in size compared to the
Universe. And people are in size but specks of dust on the Earth.
Ok, so far I follow you.
Evidence indicates the age of the Universe to be at least 14 BILLION YEARS.
The scientific evidence is that the world is over 4 BILLION YEARS old.
Archaeological evidence is that man has existed on the earth for
approximately 150,000 years. When the various books of the Bible were
written, mankind believed the earth was flat and that the Sun, Stars and
Planets revolved around the Earth. We now know that the Earth, Stars and
Planets revolve around the Sun and the Earth is but a speck of dust in the
unimaginably vast Universe.
Ok, still with you.
This knowledge is based on a wealth of objective scientific evidence whose
accuracy is supported by factual data; not parables, folklore or mythology.
What is there to show that religion is based on parables, folklore or mythology?
You suddenly stumbled there.
In the overall scheme of the Universe, man appears to be totally
inconsequential. This certainly does not support the existence of current
God claims.
????????? Try that again. Man is the only animal that has the ability to
utilize logic and develop reasoning. No other life can do that. That sets us
apart from the cow, the insect, the plant, etc.
Why do God's worshippers and followers suffer with and die of the same
diseases, afflictions and accidents as the non-believers?
The Rose garden comes in life after life, or as we say it, after our physical
body dies but we of God move on.
Millions of men, women and totally innocent children have been
indiscriminately killed and maimed by Hurricanes, Typhoons, Tsunamis, Tidal
Waves, Cyclones, Earthquakes, Volcanic eruptions, Airplane crashes, Train
wrecks and other disasters.
Yep.
Why did God permit people ( and innocent children ) of all, and no,
religious beliefs, and of all degrees of goodness and wickedness, to be
indiscriminately killed and injured? Why are not just the wicked punished?
Only Jesus Christ never sinned.
If God is all-merciful why do perfectly innocent children die in the womb or
be born with serious handicaps like blindness, deafness, paralysis,
imbeciles,
joined at the head or body with their twin, be ugly, pretty etc??
God became man himself to die on the cross. Why would he treat us differently?
It's something about a suffering servant.
Why has God created hundreds of diseases and handicaps that afflict the
good, and the innocent along with the evil?
Oh, he didn't. Man invented/failed to prevent disease.
duke
*****
Matthew 7
21"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,'
will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he
who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.
*****
.
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| User: "Bill" |
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| Title: Re: Should we believe in Gods? |
09 Jan 2005 11:35:08 AM |
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"duke" <duckgumbo32@cox.net> wrote in message
news:v8i2u0di0braf7bdg1aahhfqqulbmpq5os@4ax.com...
On Sat, 08 Jan 2005 20:29:22 GMT, "Bill" <wmech@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
Do any real Gods exist? If so, are they all good, all powerful,
benevolent
and caring?
Just one.
Which one? Only yours?
Why do people not insist on at least some modicum of objective evidence
that
'their' God is the true and real God instead of just taking the word of
other errant men?
Sounds like one atheist talking to another. "I don't believe, do you?
No. Ok,
so there's no God".
So? Is this your evidence or proof that your God exists?
Most importantly, if there is a real God, why does the real God permit
the
confusion and dedication of people following fake or false Gods to exist?
He gave you a free will to choose him out of love. It's your choice, go
for it.
How can God give me free will if he doesn't exist? Your God is pure fiction.
It is now known that the Universe is in excess of 20 BILLION LIGHT YEARS
in
diameter. Light travels at 186,000 MILES PER SECOND. We do not have the
instrumentation to determine how much greater it is. It could be
infinity.
This means the Earth is but a speck of dust in size compared to the
Universe. And people are in size but specks of dust on the Earth.
Ok, so far I follow you.
Evidence indicates the age of the Universe to be at least 14 BILLION
YEARS.
The scientific evidence is that the world is over 4 BILLION YEARS old.
Archaeological evidence is that man has existed on the earth for
approximately 150,000 years. When the various books of the Bible were
written, mankind believed the earth was flat and that the Sun, Stars and
Planets revolved around the Earth. We now know that the Earth, Stars and
Planets revolve around the Sun and the Earth is but a speck of dust in
the
unimaginably vast Universe.
Ok, still with you.
This knowledge is based on a wealth of objective scientific evidence
whose
accuracy is supported by factual data; not parables, folklore or
mythology.
What is there to show that religion is based on parables, folklore or
mythology?
You suddenly stumbled there.
Read your Bible and other religious documents. There is no OBJECTIVE
EVIDENCE
to support religious beliefs. Lots of opinions but no evidence or facts.
Where is it?
In the overall scheme of the Universe, man appears to be totally
inconsequential. This certainly does not support the existence of current
God claims.
????????? Try that again. Man is the only animal that has the ability to
utilize logic and develop reasoning. No other life can do that. That
sets us
apart from the cow, the insect, the plant, etc.
Firstly you ASSUME there are no other creatures of higher intelligence on
one or more
of the trillions of other planets in the Universe.
Secondly, you illogically assume that because man is the highest form of
animal life form
Earth he had to be created by your God. This is all based on assumptions not
objective evidence.
Why do God's worshippers and followers suffer with and die of the same
diseases, afflictions and accidents as the non-believers?
The Rose garden comes in life after life, or as we say it, after our
physical
body dies but we of God move on.
You failed to explain why the punishing part of life fails to discriminate
between worshippers,
good people, sinners, thieves and reprobates?
Millions of men, women and totally innocent children have been
indiscriminately killed and maimed by Hurricanes, Typhoons, Tsunamis,
Tidal
Waves, Cyclones, Earthquakes, Volcanic eruptions, Airplane crashes, Train
wrecks and other disasters.
Yep
You can't explain or justify why your God is so evil and uncaring?
Why did God permit people ( and innocent children ) of all, and no,
religious beliefs, and of all degrees of goodness and wickedness, to be
indiscriminately killed and injured? Why are not just the wicked
punished?
Only Jesus Christ never sinned.
Since when do unborn and recently born children sin? How do they do this??
If God is all-merciful why do perfectly innocent children die in the womb
or
be born with serious handicaps like blindness, deafness, paralysis,
imbeciles,
joined at the head or body with their twin, be ugly, pretty etc??
God became man himself to die on the cross. Why would he treat us
differently?
This is an opinion - not a fact. Why would the all powerful creator of the
Universe
have to die a miserable death along side of two criminals on a cross to
forgive us our sins?
Why did not this all powerful God, the creator of the Universe and man just
not forgive mans
sins and skip punishing his son? How does punishing his son forgive mans
sins?
This does not in any way provide justification for punishing innocent
children.
It's something about a suffering servant.
Why has God created hundreds of diseases and handicaps that afflict the
good, and the innocent along with the evil?
Oh, he didn't. Man invented/failed to prevent disease.
Man created diseases, Hurricanes, Typhoons, Tsunamis, Tidal
Waves, Cyclones, Earthquakes, Volcanic eruptions, Airplane crashes, Train
wrecks and other disasters?
Come on, you don't really believe this do you?
duke
*****
Matthew 7
21"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,'
will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he
who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.
*****
.
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| User: "Les Hellawell" |
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| Title: Re: Should we believe in Gods? |
09 Jan 2005 01:37:23 PM |
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On Sun, 09 Jan 2005 09:20:20 -0600, duke <duckgumbo32@cox.net> wrote:
On Sat, 08 Jan 2005 20:29:22 GMT, "Bill" <wmech@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
Do any real Gods exist? If so, are they all good, all powerful, benevolent
and caring?
Just one.
Woden?
Why do people not insist on at least some modicum of objective evidence that
'their' God is the true and real God instead of just taking the word of
other errant men?
Sounds like one atheist talking to another. "I don't believe, do you? No. Ok,
so there's no God".
Most importantly, if there is a real God, why does the real God permit the
confusion and dedication of people following fake or false Gods to exist?
He gave you a free will to choose him out of love. It's your choice, go for it.
ok I love Woden, Woden loves me, his only daughter dies horribly after
falling in a vat od treacle saving me, what next?
It is now known that the Universe is in excess of 20 BILLION LIGHT YEARS in
diameter. Light travels at 186,000 MILES PER SECOND. We do not have the
instrumentation to determine how much greater it is. It could be infinity.
This means the Earth is but a speck of dust in size compared to the
Universe. And people are in size but specks of dust on the Earth.
Ok, so far I follow you.
Evidence indicates the age of the Universe to be at least 14 BILLION YEARS.
The scientific evidence is that the world is over 4 BILLION YEARS old.
Archaeological evidence is that man has existed on the earth for
approximately 150,000 years. When the various books of the Bible were
written, mankind believed the earth was flat and that the Sun, Stars and
Planets revolved around the Earth. We now know that the Earth, Stars and
Planets revolve around the Sun and the Earth is but a speck of dust in the
unimaginably vast Universe.
Ok, still with you.
This knowledge is based on a wealth of objective scientific evidence whose
accuracy is supported by factual data; not parables, folklore or mythology.
What is there to show that religion is based on parables, folklore or mythology?
You suddenly stumbled there.
You jumped too soon there. He hasn't spoken religion yet
In the overall scheme of the Universe, man appears to be totally
inconsequential. This certainly does not support the existence of current
God claims.
????????? Try that again. Man is the only animal that has the ability to
utilize logic and develop reasoning. No other life can do that. That sets us
apart from the cow, the insect, the plant, etc.
On this planet yes probably but that are many many other planets out
there. Speck of dust remember?
Why do God's worshippers and followers suffer with and die of the same
diseases, afflictions and accidents as the non-believers?
The Rose garden comes in life after life, or as we say it, after our physical
body dies but we of God move on.
Don't be too sure of that.
Millions of men, women and totally innocent children have been
indiscriminately killed and maimed by Hurricanes, Typhoons, Tsunamis, Tidal
Waves, Cyclones, Earthquakes, Volcanic eruptions, Airplane crashes, Train
wrecks and other disasters.
Yep.
Why did God permit people ( and innocent children ) of all, and no,
religious beliefs, and of all degrees of goodness and wickedness, to be
indiscriminately killed and injured? Why are not just the wicked punished?
Only Jesus Christ never sinned.
Why do you people wallow in this sin business? I am not part of Adams
tribe, I am not one of the choosen people so what Adam did is nowt to
do with me. According to the Bible this god of theirs said "Thou shalt
have no other gods before me". He was their god, I am supposed to
be worshipping one of the other gods he mentions. Praying to their god
is pointless this god only listens to the prayers of the choosen
people. but which of these other gods am I supposed to be worshipping?
Well I could try Wodin as you suggest but if he is the wrong god I
am for it obviously. Oh why has't thou forsaken me oh unknown god
let me know your name.
.....
.....
....
Nope no answer. Sigh.
If God is all-merciful why do perfectly innocent children die in the womb or
be born with serious handicaps like blindness, deafness, paralysis,
imbeciles,
joined at the head or body with their twin, be ugly, pretty etc??
God became man himself to die on the cross. Why would he treat us differently?
So the god of Adams tribe is now dead then?
It's something about a suffering servant.
Why has God created hundreds of diseases and handicaps that afflict the
good, and the innocent along with the evil?
Oh, he didn't. Man invented/failed to prevent disease.
Come again?
We invented the Black Death, cancer, terminal stupidity?
--
Les Hellawell
greetings from
YORKSHIRE - The White Rose County
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| User: "Dubh Ghall" |
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| Title: Re: Should we believe in Gods? |
09 Jan 2005 05:19:00 PM |
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On Sun, 09 Jan 2005 19:37:23 +0000, Les Hellawell
<myshredder@leswell.freeuk.com> wrote:
ok I love Woden, Woden loves me, his only daughter dies horribly after
falling in a vat od treacle saving me, what next?
Strange, how the children of gods, always seem to meet sticky ends.
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