| Topic: |
Religions > Atheism |
| User: |
"V" |
| Date: |
18 Apr 2007 05:27:23 PM |
| Object: |
Show me one stable "truth" - Tokay |
Tokay Pino Gris Apr 18, 12:51 pm
V wrote:
Whereas, truth is stable - for the truth is that which does not
change.
Define "Truth". Then show me one stable "truth" that cannot change and
therefor never has changed. Best if you can prove this "Truth"
empirically.I have one in mind... but it still is not unchangeable.
Actually, a
second one springs to mind. But weeeell.... how can I prove Murphies
Law? Hm... actually a third one... but that one I will not say.
Tokay
*********** REPLY SEPARATOR ***********
V:
Hi Tokay
Thanks for your reply.
I am sorry you got caught up on one word, as there were thousands of
others words that I hope have not slipped you by in my post:
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.atheism/browse_frm/thread/327805fdd9caec=
99/c99a0e01b4947eca?hl=3Den#c99a0e01b4947eca
I find that if a word or a sentence gives me trouble, I skip over it
and see how the rests reads.
If you think that sentence I wrote on truth is confusing, I will take
it out when I use that n the future...just let me know.
I don't have much time to write, as I have to go exercise, but will
try to answer your post.
The problems with the average atheist is they are mind manacled.
See:
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.atheism/browse_frm/thread/125b41aa8fd2b8=
7b/cf400bdf88ba1701?lnk=3Dgst&q=3Dconundrum&rnum=3D7&hl=3Den#cf400bdf88ba17=
01
If something is not 'an absolute' and 'not perfect' then they seem to
throw it out of their toolbox.
As such, they never do find anything perfect and their peace toolbox
is empty.
What happens then?
"A mans mind may be likened to a garden which may be intelligently
cultivated or allowed to run wild; but whether cultivated or
neglected, it must and will bring forth. If no useful seeds are put
into it, then an abundance of useless 'weed seeds' will fall therein
and will continue to produce their kind." ~ James Allen
So atheist need to look beyond the head and start using their heart
some.
What was the responses to using your heart at alt.atheism?
The heart is 'just a blood pump' was the reply.
Atheists call themselves 'freethinkers,' but are not. As they block
tools to finding inner peace through application of prejudice and not
by testing.
The answer to finding perfect peace is this Tokay - finding inner
peace is never a perfected destination...we can only make the journey.
It is all about finding the 'best fit' equation.
Only a blissninny will claim to be perfectly peaceful 100% of the
time.
I shot for 80% to 90% at peace.
I regularly achieve it.
But I I do not practice what I preach my peace levels can fall to nil.
And this practice of peace tools not only applies to ourselves and for
others we deal with.
When we destroy other's peace we destroy our peace.
When we promote the inner peace of others, it promotes inner peace
within us.
As you instill seeds of peace within others you plant the same seeds
and water these seeds within you as well.
As you give so you receive.
Do you have to be a Christian to believe that?
No...it is just how things are.
This is truth Tokay.
If this explanation does not meet your standards, then try producing
inner peace by applying the 'rule of opposites' to all the directions
I have mentioned.
Inner peace is a destination I travel to, but never arrive at Toaky.
It is always in flux, for what is enough one day is not enough another
day and what is not enough yesterday can be enough for today.
It takes balance and reflection.
We can see this blanket dismissal with the atheist critics here.
They always know I am wrong, yet they have nothing to replace the
wrong with when you ask them for the right view?
A common dictionary definition of truth is "agreement with fact or
reality."
Yes, there are ultimate truths, temporary truth and such. And the
Buddhists say that since everything is impermanent there are no
ultimates.
I don't play these games.
If I did, then I would not do a thing.
As I said, I am interested in practical application.
We all have to do the best we can at finding what 'truth and inner
peace' means to us to live a flourishing life as human beings.
And it all starts with reflection, testing and practice.
Certain Buddhists and Taoists I run into, especially the debaters,
great philosophers and sensationalists, like to promote the idea of
there is "no right and wrong" to judge in life.
Taoist's believe that if we do not favor right or wrong, good or bad,
beauty or ugliness we will not become attached to such outcomes. They
also believe that the cosmic forces do not favor any of these things
but treat all with equanimity, so they wish to mimic the cosmos to be
in unity with it.
While this extreme view of "no right or wrong" holds some truth, it
also needs to be balanced with the idea of the conventual view of
right and wrong to find a balanced "middle path" view of right and
wrong if we wish to live within society.
In general, we cannot say what is good bad, right or wrong for others
since we do not know where they are on the path of their existence and
what they need to learn or overcome to get where they are going.
On the other hand, decisions have to be made to survive in our world,
get along with others. And when decisions have to be made so do
judgments have to be decided on - so yes we must have a basis for
deciding to go left or right in life.
The part of this idea that helps me with anger and prejudice with
others is to remember we cannot tell others what is right for them. We
can make suggestions, but since we are not the "end all" in the
universe we just do not know. So, I try to remember this when I get
too judgmental. This middle path view can also be applied to the idea
of existence and non existence as well for those having trouble with
this Buddhist concept.
Some Hindu's take this idea of Karma to the extreme. They live in a
caste system and they see the "untouchables" as deserving their lot in
life. Anyone having the poor fortune to end up in a lower caste must
not be helped out of it. Some think, "If they should die - better do
so quickly and hope for a better rebirth." They see any help they give
as a prolonging of suffering for these untouchables. Suffering is
blamed on karma and they have justification for turning their back on
charity to such people.
My prior Christian background helps balance this out, but I also know
I cannot help everyone, but try to remain willing to help is possible.
Again it is good to remember - seek balance - seek the middle road -
we all share the same breath - all sentient beings. I was a catholic
for 50 years, then became an agnostic freethinker.
The parable of the arrow can also be a help to you.
http://www.csis.hku.hk/~bruce/water75.html
Rules they use to determine what are definitive truths and what are
not.
1) Do not rely on just the person but rely on the doctrine.
2) With respect to the doctrine, do not rely on just the words, but
rely on the meaning.
3) With respect to the meaning, do not rely on just meaning requiring
interpretation, but rely on meaning that is definitive.
4) With respect to definitive meaning, do not rely on just dualistic
understanding but rely on the wisdom of the direct perception of the
truth.
Yes, knowing what is true and developing wisdom within are two very
important qualities for the confused spiritual practitioner. With
respect to myself, I balance wisdom with that of peace perception.
Whether something is a truth or not it has to pass the peace test, for
there are many things that are true and good in life but will end up
destroying my peace if done to excess, so I always ask is a person
place or thing promotes my peace or destroys my peace?
Developing a good vipassana practice of seeing things clearly is very
important. This insight meditation practice deals with seeing things
in terms of impermanence, suffering and non-self. Seeing things for
what they are helps prevent further uprising of new passions from
ignorance. We sometimes forget we are spiritual beings residing in a
physical body and need to account to both areas to live balanced. For
peace - beware of extremes.
..=2E..My discussion of a similar 'right-wrong...true-false' topic from
an earlier post.
(Anonymous Atheist 1) writes:
"What are the morals we should follow? Whose morals are correct? How
do we agree upon a common set of morals? or even what are morals?"
(Anonymous Atheist 2) writes:
"Atheism is making real progress with destroying religion.)
V:
Hi and thanks for your posts.
Like to get rid of all religion and replace it with morals without
God? But cant decide on whose morals are the correct ones to replace
religious morals?
The short answer:
Destroying others always destroys peace. It destroys your peace as
well as the inner peace of the one that you destroys ... look to the
God of Inner Peace and the God of Nature for moral and ethical values.
Even if you dump Yahweh, you can never dump these two Gods and live a
flourishing, healthy peaceful life.
See:
http://jesusneverexisted.org/jne/forum/index.php?topic=3D342.0
The long answer:
There is no answer no matter how long you make it that gives an
absolute answer, for we will always come up with exceptions to the
rule with this subject.
The question of universal morals and laws are the subject of numerous
college classes and even with a Ph.D., it still depends on the person
and their spiritual health when they answer such a question.
The arguments always seem to be around Moral Relativism vs Objectivism
vs Determinism vs Emotivism vs Ethical subjectivism vs Moral
Absolutism and around and around they go.
Add a few more components to the equation, such as Universality, The
Golden Rule of Reciprocity, Natural Law
Theory, listening to the God of Inner Peace, Greater Good vs the
Greater Right, Flourishing of the Species Theory and 'Might Makes
Right' and people can get really stuck in analysis paralysis.
What is the best answer?
There is no best answer, other than it is a mix of all these in that
yield us a 'best fit' equation to morals and ethics to live by.
All these concepts requires the individual to have thinking ability
and a 'conscious' supported by spiritual values to come to the best
fit for the circumstances at question. Humans have a conscious since
they do not run solely by instinct as animals do. Without a spiritual
based conscious they would turn to self-destruction.
This is a good topic to study up, for without having a feel for how
this all works and without the fear of religion to keep humans in
check, humans soon turn into monsters that sink to levels even below
that of the beasts. You see, religion are humans brand of prepackaged
morals. One just hopes that the various religious sects did a good job
in developing the packages.
With atheists, many a time they lack spiritual values and are run by
ill will, fear, hatred and a bloated ego. This goes for theists as
well, so I am not singling out atheists as a problem. It just goes to
illustrate that whether religious or not...it takes more to live a
life at peace than belief in God or freedom from God.
I discuss some of these issues here:
http://jesusneverexisted.org/jne/forum/index.php?topic=3D4.0
http://jesusneverexisted.org/jne/forum/index.php?topic=3D318.0
http://jesusneverexisted.org/jne/forum/index.php?topic=3D380.0
You will never get people to agree on anything. Some are sick, some
are well and the rest are somewhere in between. And some of the well
ones get sick on other days and d it is the same with the sick ones.
The best we can do is to live 'our life at peace' and help promote
peace within others.
There are 3 components necessary to live a happy life: CONTENTMENT,
LOVE or COMPASSION and GRATITUDE. When we realize that happiness is
there for the taking and it is independent from our circumstances it
someday may sink in that there is nothing stopping us from being
content and happy RIGHT NOW!
The choice is your if you have had enough pain. Examine which of these
components is missing in your life.
As James Allen wrote in As a man Thinketh:
"To think well of all, to be cheerful with all, to patiently learn to
find the good in all - such unselfish thoughts are the very portals of
heaven; and to dwell day by day in thoughts of peace toward every
creature will bring abounding peace to their possessor."
Early records for moral codes goes back to Egypt with the 42 negative
confessions. Scholars think the 10 commandments came from these.
Yahweh also dictated over 600 other commandments and rules for the
Jews to live my. So, even in the old days, it was a tough job trying
to follow the rules.
Nowadays we can take courses that deal with morals, values and making
laws but when you finish them you are sometime more confused than when
you started.
Does this mean we should chuck the whole thing and give up?
No, for is we gave it no thought we would really be into deep
trouble.
We have to do with morals and values the same as we do with life. We
live it the best we can albeit imperfectly and do this until the day
we die if we wish to flourish.
I heard a story one time in a Yoga lecture that illustrates this
point. "Range is of the ego - Form is of the soul." The only thing we
need to be concerned with is how is our form when it comes to our
practice and our life.
Here is a sample college level course on ethical values
Facts and Values
Lives to Envy, Lives to Admire
Foundations of Ethics-Theories of the Good
Foundations of Ethics-Theories of the Right
Thoughts on Religion and Values
Life's Priorities
The Cash Value of a Life
How Do We Know Right from Wrong?
Cultures and Values
Questions of Relativism
Cultures and Values
Evolution, Ethics, and Game Theory
The Objective Side of Value
Better Off Dead
A Picture of Justice
Life's Horrors
A Genealogy of My Morals
Theories of Punishment
Choice and Chance
Free Will and Determinism
Images of Immortality
Ethical Knowledge
Moralities in Conflict
Conclusions
Sample college level course on natural law:
The Philosophical Approach
The General Nature of Ethics
Law, Nature, Natural Law
Principles of Natural Law Theory
Greek Ideas of Nature and Justice
Aristotle's Clarification of "Nature"
Aristotle on Justice and Politics
The Stoic Idea of Natural Law
Biblical Views of Nature and Law
Early Christians, Nature, and Law
Roman, Canon, and Natural Law
The Thomistic Synthesis
Late Medieval and Early Modern Views
Hobbes and Locke
Natural Law and the Founding Fathers
Descartes, Rousseau, and Kant
Can Rights Exist Without Natural Law?
The Question of Evolution
The Paradox of Cultural Relativism
The Problem of God
Current Applications-Jurisprudence
Current Applications-Bioethics
Current Applications-Social Ethics
The Eternal Return of Natural Law
All Course titles Teaching Company
You will find just one area as a foundation for this subject will not
do very well. For as much as I like natural law as a guide to living
right. We can see the Nazis used the same natural law argument to
purify the races when they came to trial.
Sound crazy?
In nature doesn't the strongest survive?
Balance is of the utmost importance with our quest for truth. The
Nazis left out the God of Peace in their calculations and had to pay
the price to this God when judgment day came along.
The Greeks used to teach harmony and balance in the Trivium in their
schools. In the 'tenants of reason' they went into much details with
the subject of harmony breaking it down into proportionally, prudence,
balance, fitness and aptness. Not subjects you hear a lot of
nowadays.
Proportionality and harmony would be most welcome subjects taught
nowadays. So do not do as many of my atheists friends do when they try
to think with 'manacled minds' of self imposed prejudice. For the best
fit with morals and laws we need to a balance many areas as one thing
only goes so far with giving us a good life.
When judgments have to be made, mistakes can and will happen the best
we can do is give it an honest effort with rational thought. The
ancient Greek philosophers knew that when passion rules the mind, that
the only job left for reason is that of the subservient task to find
cleaver ways to satisfy the passions. They called it "putting passion
before reason."
Both these areas of passion and reason where the foundation of much
philosophical discussion of ethics and virtue with the ancient Greeks.
Once we put passions before reason we are using prejudice as the
foundation for our building plan, and sooner or later anything built
on lies will fall. Rationality hopefully can leave the personal
prejudice out of the picture.
Always remember..."honor dies where the interest lies."
Laws are advertised as reason without passion, but usually fall short
of their goal. As the truth is that which does not change and man made
laws always seem to change.
3 Components of Rationality
1 - Rationality requires reflection.
2- Rationality is the ability to anticipate consequences.
3 - Rationality requires adherence to certain standards.
This being able to 'rest satisfied' is something the perfectionists
lack with their rationality and why they will never be at peace until
they stop collecting concepts and start using the concepts of peace
generations.
We can examine our actions to see what useful tools for finding
peace we offer to others. This evaluation says a lot about our own
practice of generating inner peace. When you practice peace promotion
with others you will reap inner peace promotion. When you practice
destroying others peace, you will reap self destruction of inner
peace.
I suggest any atheists wishing to find inner peace within their life
adopt the creed of the atheists (their version of prepackaged morals)
and become secular humanists as a good first start.
The 'informal creed' of atheism.
An Atheist loves his fellow man instead of god. An Atheist believes
that heaven is something for which we should work now - here on earth
for all men together to enjoy.
An Atheist believes that he can get no help through prayer but that he
must find in himself the inner conviction, and strength to meet life,
to grapple with it, to subdue it and enjoy it.
An Atheist believes that only in a knowledge of himself and a
knowledge of his fellow man can he find the understanding that will
help to a life of fulfillment. He seeks to know himself and his fellow
man rather than to know a god. An Atheist believes that a hospital
should be built instead of a church.
An Atheist believes that a deed must be done instead of a prayer
said.
An Atheist strives for involvement in life and not escape into death.
He wants disease conquered, poverty vanquished, war eliminated. He
wants man to understand and love man.
He wants an ethical way of life. He believes that we cannot rely on a
god or channel action into prayer nor hope for an end of troubles in a
hereafter.
He believes that we are our brother's keepers; and are keepers of our
own lives; that we are responsible persons and the job is here and the
time is now."
http://www.atheists.org/Atheism/
"The Affirmations of Humanism: A Statement of Principles"
=B7 We are committed to the application of reason and science to the
understanding of the universe and to the solving of human problems.
=B7 We deplore efforts to denigrate human intelligence, to seek to
explain the world in supernatural terms, and to look outside nature
for salvation.
=B7 We believe that scientific discovery and technology can contribute
to the betterment of human life.
=B7 We believe in an open and pluralistic society and that democracy is
the best guarantee of protecting human rights from authoritarian
elites and repressive majorities.
=B7 We are committed to the principle of the separation of church and
state.
=B7 We cultivate the arts of negotiation and compromise as a means of
resolving differences and achieving mutual understanding.
=B7 We are concerned with securing justice and fairness in society and
with eliminating discrimination and intolerance.
=B7 We believe in supporting the disadvantaged and the handicapped so
that they will be able to help themselves.
=B7 We attempt to transcend divisive parochial loyalties based on race,
religion, gender, nationality, creed, class, sexual orientation, or
ethnicity, and strive to work together for the common good of
humanity.
=B7 We want to protect and enhance the earth, to preserve it for future
generations, and to avoid inflicting needless suffering on other
species.
=B7 We believe in enjoying life here and now and in developing our
creative talents to their fullest.
=B7 We believe in the cultivation of moral excellence.
=B7 We respect the right to privacy. Mature adults should be allowed to
fulfill their aspirations, to express their sexual preferences, to
exercise reproductive freedom, to have access to comprehensive and
informed health-care, and to die with dignity.
=B7 We believe in the common moral decencies: altruism, integrity,
honesty, truthfulness, responsibility. Humanist ethics is amenable to
critical, rational guidance. There are normative standards that we
discover together. Moral principles are tested by their consequences.
=B7 We are deeply concerned with the moral education of our children. We
want to nourish reason and compassion.
=B7 We are engaged by the arts no less than by the sciences.
=B7 We are citizens of the universe and are excited by discoveries still
to be made in the cosmos.
=B7 We are skeptical of untested claims to knowledge, and we are open to
novel ideas and seek new departures in our thinking.
=B7 We affirm humanism as a realistic alternative to theologies of
despair and ideologies of violence and as a source of rich personal
significance and genuine satisfaction in the service to others.
=B7 We believe in optimism rather than pessimism, hope rather than
despair, learning in the place of dogma, truth instead of ignorance,
joy rather than guilt or sin, tolerance in the place of fear, love
instead of hatred, compassion over selfishness, beauty instead of
ugliness, and reason rather than blind faith or irrationality.
My vote?
Personally I am not here to save anyone's soul...well, maybe my own
soul if I got one.
I 'save my soul' by practicing what I preach when it comes to living
by the rules of the God of Peace and the God of Nature.
But if the vote was up to me. I vote to keep religion. For it is the
fantasy and delusions of atheists that atheism and freethought alone
will fix all our woes.
Maybe someday in the next millennium things will be different. But if
the trends keep going with our chemical laden foods and stressed
lifestyles we will only get worse and not better.
All we have to do is look at alt.athsism to get glimpse of what the
world would be like if religion did not exist...scary.
People will always need something to concentrate their minds on as
they live to avoid thinking about death, so religion plays an
important part of this fixations.
The defiance based atheists use hate of theists to define themselves
and to fixate on with their thoughts. So really the two camps are
dependent one each other...who would the theists try to save if it
wasn't for atheists?
Take care,
V (Male)
Agnostic Freethinker
Practical Philosopher
AA#2
.
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| User: "raven1" |
|
| Title: Re: Show me one stable "truth" - Tokay |
19 Apr 2007 11:12:01 AM |
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On 18 Apr 2007 15:27:23 -0700, V <vfr44@aol.com> wrote:
I am sorry you got caught up on one word, as there were thousands of
others words that I hope have not slipped you by in my post:
Do you seriously think anyone actually reads your posts all the way
through?
--
"O Sybilli, si ergo
Fortibus es in ero
O Nobili! Themis trux
Sivat sinem? Causen Dux"
.
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