Silly Article about the Soul. Please Comment



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Topic: Religions > Atheism
User: "quibbler"
Date: 25 Feb 2004 04:34:19 PM
Object: Silly Article about the Soul. Please Comment
The link below is to a pretty lame article alleging to provide evidence
about the existence of the soul. It's written by some idiot business
major named Matt Koschmann (not that I have anything against business
majors in general). It can be found all over the web, but there's a non-
PDF version of it at this address. I'd appreciate it if you all could
make specific comments about some of the many places where Koschmann
makes weak and/or downright laughable arguments. I'm sure you'll find
lots of examples. Anyway, I'll be talking to some folks on thursday who
really think that this is a fantastic article and some of you may think
of things to say about the article that I don't.
Here is the article:
http://antigop.50megs.com/koschmann.html
Also note that toward the end he reverts to all out proselytising. You
may want to skip everything after the heading "The One Who Knows" if you
even make it that far. His arguments are bad enough without hearing his
Campus Crusade door-to-door preacher routine.
I'll get the ball rolling by making a few comments about things he says
right in the beginning.
You will note that he starts out playing reductionistic games, with silly
rhetorical games like asking, "Am I just a material being?composed simply
of a body, a brain, and a central nervous system". In this guy's case I
suspect that he's just the body and the nervous system without brain part
but that's a different story :).
Anyway, he continues to give short shrift to what he calls "physicalism"
so that he can get to what he obviously sees as the only other mutually
exclusive option -- dualism. Now, I know this guy is a business student,
but one would think that it would occur to him to at least call the other
position something like "physical monism", if he's going to contrast it
with "dualism". Then it might occur to him that there could be even more
options, like say non-physical monism, for example. But it's pretty
obvious by now that this guy isn't a careful thinker.
Here's another thing that obviously never occured to him. In his attempt
to paraphrase the physical monistic position he says, "If the matter
configured into your body ceases to be, then we would have to say that
you cease to be." That might sound ok, but actually, he had missed a
very crucial detail. By his own reductionistic definition his statement
would not be justifiable. After all, when most people die their bodies
don't wink out of existence. At the moment of death the body may be only
slightly different than it was the second before when it was alive. The
difference is that some system or systems within the material body ceased
to function in a necessary way. However, by his definition, a dead
person who was slowly decomposing would really not be that different than
a live person. I think that this is pretty good evidence that Matt
hasn't given any careful thought to the "physicalist" position.

I'll end with this for now. We actually come to the core premise of his
article when he claims that "Science tells us that approximately every
seven to nine years, all the matter in your body at the atomic
level changes, including your brain". If this premise turns out to be
without merit then many of his additional arguments in the rest of the
article fall apart. Now note that he has used a weasel word here.
Instead of saying that the matter is *replaced* he only says that it
"changes" in some physical way. Of course, considering that all cells in
the body need oxygen and nutrients to live probably most all cells
*change* in some physical way every day. The problem, of course, is
that we don't know that these changes have any fundamental significance
to relatively permanent features such as personality.
You will also note that Matt doesn't footnote this scientific "fact". He
appears to be basing it on a hodge podge of folk nostrums, perhaps going
all the way back to stories like the "ship of theseus", or "george
washington's axe". The modern "scientific" version of this usually says
that all matter in the body is replaced within X years. Of course, this
is actually not true of things like the brain, so I suspect that he
substituted the word "changed" to make it seem more defensible. One does
wonder, however, how Matt imagined that scientists determined that
absolutely every cell in the body gets changed. After all, if there were
some cell that somehow managed to not get replaced, changed, etc then his
silly little attack against his strawman version of physicalism would be
untenable.
He goes on to try to apply his alleged scientific principle, which is
actually just an immature understanding of the "law of identities" ad
nauseum. There are a huge number of other errors he makes through the
course of this article, but I'll stop here for now.
I look forward to comments from other people.

--
_____________________________________________________
Quibbler (quibbler247atyahoo.com)
"It is fashionable to wax apocalyptic about the
threat to humanity posed by the AIDS virus, 'mad cow'
disease, and many others, but I think a case can be
made that faith is one of the world's great evils,
comparable to the smallpox virus but harder to
eradicate." -- Richard Dawkins
.

User: "johac"

Title: Re: Silly Article about the Soul. Please Comment 26 Feb 2004 01:13:20 AM
In article <MPG.1aa6d0d1de6c525298a3c7@news.individual.net>,
quibbler <quibbler247@yahoo.com> wrote:

The link below is to a pretty lame article alleging to provide evidence
about the existence of the soul. It's written by some idiot business
major named Matt Koschmann (not that I have anything against business
majors in general). It can be found all over the web, but there's a non-
PDF version of it at this address. I'd appreciate it if you all could
make specific comments about some of the many places where Koschmann
makes weak and/or downright laughable arguments. I'm sure you'll find
lots of examples. Anyway, I'll be talking to some folks on thursday who
really think that this is a fantastic article and some of you may think
of things to say about the article that I don't.

Here is the article:


http://antigop.50megs.com/koschmann.html


I'll end with this for now. We actually come to the core premise of his
article when he claims that "Science tells us that approximately every
seven to nine years, all the matter in your body at the atomic
level changes, including your brain".

I wonder where he got this 'scientific' gem from?
As far as his reliance on NDEs for his arguments, perhaps he should read
this:
From
http://www.findarticles.com/cf_dls/m2843/4_27/104733237/p1/article.jhtml?
term=
" Recently, Olaf Blanke and his colleagues (2002) have used
electrostimulation of the brain to produce a more convincing OBE in a
forty-three-year-old epileptic woman. While trying to find the focus of
her brain damage, they stimulated points in the right angular gyrus
(shown in figure 2), producing various disturbances in the perception of
her body. When stimulated at different intensities, she reported feeling
that she was "sinking into the bed," "falling from a height," and seeing
parts of her body shortening (Blanke et al. 2002, 269). At one point she
had an OBE in which she saw her trunk and legs from above, the same
portion of her body she had felt when stimulated before. However, when
they stimulated her epileptic focus in her temporal lobe, over 5 cm away
from the angular gyrus, she did not have an OBE. Blanke and his
colleagues proposed that it was stimulating her angular gyrus that
produced the OBE by disrupting the integration of somarosensory and
vestibular information--that is, information about the feel and position
of her body. These findings support the idea that the brain produces the
conscious perception of an embodied self from the coordinated activity
of various brain regions.
Drug effects on the brain can also produce OBEs. The drug ketamine,
called "Special K" on the street and used as an anaesthetic before
surgery, often produces OBEs. Karl Jansen (1997) has argued that the
experience produced by ketamine is very much like the near-death
experience (NDE) in which people often report the experience of floating
above the body, traveling through a dark tunnel into the light, seeing
God, and the conviction that they were actually dead. Although naturally
occurring NDEs may result from various causes, ketamine may produce an
artificial version of the NDE and an associated OBE by blocking neural
transmission in the temporal lobe."
<and more>
--
John Hachmann aa #1782
"Men become civilized not in their willingness to believe, bit in
proportion to their readiness to doubt." - H. L. Mencken
.
User: "quibbler"

Title: Re: Silly Article about the Soul. Please Comment 26 Feb 2004 09:42:44 PM
In article <jhachm-2EDECA.23132025022004@news-60.giganews.com>,
jhachm@ixpresremove.com says...

In article <MPG.1aa6d0d1de6c525298a3c7@news.individual.net>,

As far as his reliance on NDEs for his arguments, perhaps he should read
this:
From

http://www.findarticles.com/cf_dls/m2843/4_27/104733237/p1/article.jhtml?
term=


Thanks! I was able to use some of this today. There was a talk with a
creationist biochemistry professor about the soul and I suspected that
people in the audience wouldn't be able to resist bringing up NDE as
"evidence" for the soul. Amazingly, the professor seemed wholly unaware
of this work.
--
_____________________________________________________
Quibbler (quibbler247atyahoo.com)
"It is fashionable to wax apocalyptic about the
threat to humanity posed by the AIDS virus, 'mad cow'
disease, and many others, but I think a case can be
made that faith is one of the world's great evils,
comparable to the smallpox virus but harder to
eradicate." -- Richard Dawkins
.
User: "johac"

Title: Re: Silly Article about the Soul. Please Comment 27 Feb 2004 12:11:58 AM
In article <MPG.1aa86a8d551d782798a3d6@news.individual.net>,
quibbler <quibbler247@yahoo.com> wrote:

In article <jhachm-2EDECA.23132025022004@news-60.giganews.com>,
jhachm@ixpresremove.com says...

In article <MPG.1aa6d0d1de6c525298a3c7@news.individual.net>,

As far as his reliance on NDEs for his arguments, perhaps he should read
this:
From

http://www.findarticles.com/cf_dls/m2843/4_27/104733237/p1/article.jhtml?
term=




Thanks! I was able to use some of this today. There was a talk with a
creationist biochemistry professor about the soul and I suspected that
people in the audience wouldn't be able to resist bringing up NDE as
"evidence" for the soul. Amazingly, the professor seemed wholly unaware
of this work.

I find it amazing how creationists, even otherwise smart ones, can be so
oblivious to data which contradict their beliefs.
--
John Hachmann aa #1782
"Men become civilized not in their willingness to believe, bit in
proportion to their readiness to doubt." - H. L. Mencken
.



User: "W.Syme"

Title: Re: Silly Article about the Soul. Please Comment 25 Feb 2004 04:37:27 PM
On Wed, 25 Feb 2004 15:34:19 -0700, quibbler <quibbler247@yahoo.com>
wrote:

The link below is to a pretty lame article alleging to provide evidence
about the existence of the soul. It's written by some idiot business
major named Matt Koschmann (not that I have anything against business
majors in general). It can be found all over the web, but there's a non-
PDF version of it at this address. I'd appreciate it if you all could
make specific comments about some of the many places where Koschmann
makes weak and/or downright laughable arguments. I'm sure you'll find
lots of examples. Anyway, I'll be talking to some folks on thursday who
really think that this is a fantastic article and some of you may think
of things to say about the article that I don't.

Here is the article:


http://antigop.50megs.com/koschmann.html

Alright, I'll do the first two.
"This doesn't seem right! You are the person in your baby pictures,
you remember your eighteenth
birthday, and you look forward to your retirement. But this can only
be the case if there is something
that remains the same throughout your whole life, not something
material, but immaterial. This enduring
immaterial reality that makes you the same person throughout your
whole life is your soul.1 "
Nonsense. Memories are electric charges and stay in the brain even
though the particular molecules change. Not a problem whatsoever.
"Suppose that the only things we can know are those things supported
with empirical evidence. That means
we can have no knowledge about a number of things, such as
mathematics"
Nonsense. I've got one apple in my left hand, another in my right
hand, I add them together: two apples. That's as empirical as you can
get and the basics of mathematics.
Anyone want to carry it from here?

.
User: "quibbler"

Title: Re: Silly Article about the Soul. Please Comment 25 Feb 2004 05:45:04 PM
In article <6af2b1c6a44c69fc3b75cb607008469c@news.teranews.com>,
w.syme.killspam@hotpop.com says...

On Wed, 25 Feb 2004 15:34:19 -0700, quibbler <quibbler247@yahoo.com>
wrote:

The link below is to a pretty lame article alleging to provide evidence
about the existence of the soul. It's written by some idiot business
major named Matt Koschmann (not that I have anything against business
majors in general). It can be found all over the web, but there's a non-
PDF version of it at this address. I'd appreciate it if you all could
make specific comments about some of the many places where Koschmann
makes weak and/or downright laughable arguments. I'm sure you'll find
lots of examples. Anyway, I'll be talking to some folks on thursday who
really think that this is a fantastic article and some of you may think
of things to say about the article that I don't.

Here is the article:


http://antigop.50megs.com/koschmann.html


Alright, I'll do the first two.

"This doesn't seem right! You are the person in your baby pictures,
you remember your eighteenth
birthday, and you look forward to your retirement. But this can only
be the case if there is something
that remains the same throughout your whole life, not something
material, but immaterial. This enduring
immaterial reality that makes you the same person throughout your
whole life is your soul.1 "

Nonsense. Memories are electric charges and stay in the brain even
though the particular molecules change. Not a problem whatsoever.

Right, plus, a few other things. Cells in the body use things like DNA
replication to constantly make copies and do repairs, etc. That doesn't
mean there are not persistent features of the cells. Indeed, the error
correcting DNA replication process guides this and it doesn't even need a
non-physical soul, by golly.
Also, in a very real sense you are not the person that you used to be.
All joking aside, almost no adult behaves like he or she used to when he
was two years old. Things do change. Some memories get mangled or
erased. But other things about personality appear to be much more deeply
ingrained. The bottom line is that it doesn't matter whether a memory
constantly stays in your brain like flash storage or is constantly
written with new copies of the data like DRAM. Matt's point is
completely irrelevant.


"Suppose that the only things we can know are those things supported
with empirical evidence. That means
we can have no knowledge about a number of things, such as
mathematics"

Nonsense. I've got one apple in my left hand, another in my right
hand, I add them together: two apples. That's as empirical as you can
get and the basics of mathematics.

Yes, mathematics is very empirical. Also, calculators and computer have
no trouble doing math without a "soul". Mathematics is very clearly a
mechanical and deterministic process. However, it is silly to say that
empiricism rules out things like reasoning anyway. Some logical
positivists held a strange view of this via the principle of
verification, but most empiricists do not hold to that.

Anyone want to carry it from here?

I love the way that right after this he says, "Objections Anyone?" Then
he proceeds to entertain precisely one weak objection from his
materialist straw man. Excuse me, you said, "Objections" in the plural
there matt. Then you entertained one objection that was just a vague
bashing of empiricism.
Here's what he said: "Surely there must be some way of accounting for
our identity over time from a scientific (physicalist) perspective".
Indeed there is a way. Certain ideas get learned and reinforced more
strongly than others. His criticisms of empiricism have no bearing on
this.
BTW, when you get to the part about Nagel, remember this. It might be
that you can't know 100% what its like to be a bat without actually being
a bat. However, that doesn't have any bearing one whether there is a
soul. Even in a dualistic perspective a human could not know what it was
really like to a be a bat unless you had the "bat soul". But you
couldn't have a mix of a bat soul and a human soul or that would be a
different experience than just having a bat soul. The same issue applies
whether we are talking about brains or souls. There is nothing
mysterious going on here and it says nothing about materialism or
dualism. Nagel's conclusion that subjective qualia (the technical term)
have any bearing on the existence of a soul, does not appear to follow.
--
_____________________________________________________
Quibbler (quibbler247atyahoo.com)
"It is fashionable to wax apocalyptic about the
threat to humanity posed by the AIDS virus, 'mad cow'
disease, and many others, but I think a case can be
made that faith is one of the world's great evils,
comparable to the smallpox virus but harder to
eradicate." -- Richard Dawkins
.


User: "Vic Sagerquist"

Title: Re: Silly Article about the Soul. Please Comment 25 Feb 2004 05:41:22 PM
One day in alt.atheism, Also Sprach quibbler:

The link below is to a pretty lame article alleging to provide evidence
about the existence of the soul. It's written by some idiot business
major named Matt Koschmann (not that I have anything against business
majors in general). It can be found all over the web, but there's a non-
PDF version of it at this address. I'd appreciate it if you all could
make specific comments about some of the many places where Koschmann
makes weak and/or downright laughable arguments. I'm sure you'll find
lots of examples. Anyway, I'll be talking to some folks on thursday who
really think that this is a fantastic article and some of you may think
of things to say about the article that I don't.

Here is the article:


http://antigop.50megs.com/koschmann.html


Also note that toward the end he reverts to all out proselytising. You
may want to skip everything after the heading "The One Who Knows" if you
even make it that far. His arguments are bad enough without hearing his
Campus Crusade door-to-door preacher routine.

I'll get the ball rolling by making a few comments about things he says
right in the beginning.

You will note that he starts out playing reductionistic games, with silly
rhetorical games like asking, "Am I just a material being?composed simply
of a body, a brain, and a central nervous system". In this guy's case I
suspect that he's just the body and the nervous system without brain part
but that's a different story :).

Anyway, he continues to give short shrift to what he calls "physicalism"
so that he can get to what he obviously sees as the only other mutually
exclusive option -- dualism. Now, I know this guy is a business student,
but one would think that it would occur to him to at least call the other
position something like "physical monism", if he's going to contrast it
with "dualism". Then it might occur to him that there could be even more
options, like say non-physical monism, for example. But it's pretty
obvious by now that this guy isn't a careful thinker.

Here's another thing that obviously never occured to him. In his attempt
to paraphrase the physical monistic position he says, "If the matter
configured into your body ceases to be, then we would have to say that
you cease to be." That might sound ok, but actually, he had missed a
very crucial detail. By his own reductionistic definition his statement
would not be justifiable. After all, when most people die their bodies
don't wink out of existence. At the moment of death the body may be only
slightly different than it was the second before when it was alive. The
difference is that some system or systems within the material body ceased
to function in a necessary way. However, by his definition, a dead
person who was slowly decomposing would really not be that different than
a live person. I think that this is pretty good evidence that Matt
hasn't given any careful thought to the "physicalist" position.

I'll end with this for now. We actually come to the core premise of his
article when he claims that "Science tells us that approximately every
seven to nine years, all the matter in your body at the atomic
level changes, including your brain". If this premise turns out to be
without merit then many of his additional arguments in the rest of the
article fall apart. Now note that he has used a weasel word here.
Instead of saying that the matter is *replaced* he only says that it
"changes" in some physical way. Of course, considering that all cells in
the body need oxygen and nutrients to live probably most all cells
*change* in some physical way every day. The problem, of course, is
that we don't know that these changes have any fundamental significance
to relatively permanent features such as personality.

You will also note that Matt doesn't footnote this scientific "fact". He
appears to be basing it on a hodge podge of folk nostrums, perhaps going
all the way back to stories like the "ship of theseus", or "george
washington's axe". The modern "scientific" version of this usually says
that all matter in the body is replaced within X years. Of course, this
is actually not true of things like the brain, so I suspect that he
substituted the word "changed" to make it seem more defensible. One does
wonder, however, how Matt imagined that scientists determined that
absolutely every cell in the body gets changed. After all, if there were
some cell that somehow managed to not get replaced, changed, etc then his
silly little attack against his strawman version of physicalism would be
untenable.

He goes on to try to apply his alleged scientific principle, which is
actually just an immature understanding of the "law of identities" ad
nauseum. There are a huge number of other errors he makes through the
course of this article, but I'll stop here for now.

I look forward to comments from other people.

The first mistake I found was the silly claim that since our cells
regenerate every 7-9 years, we become a new person every 8 years on the
average. Of course, the writer is ignoring the obvious, that this
regeneration occurs slowly over that period, not all at once.
--
Vic Sagerquist
aa#2011
Plonked by Angelicusrex 2/24/04
______________
The fool says in his heart, "There is no God".
The wise man announces it to the world.
.
User: "quibbler"

Title: Re: Silly Article about the Soul. Please Comment 25 Feb 2004 05:51:35 PM
In article <949A95C02vicman@127.0.0.1>,
says...

One day in alt.atheism, Also Sprach quibbler:
The first mistake I found was the silly claim that since our cells
regenerate every 7-9 years, we become a new person every 8 years on the
average. Of course, the writer is ignoring the obvious, that this
regeneration occurs slowly over that period, not all at once.

Yes, it's like they don't recognize the difference between having your
leg blown off by a land mine and having the cells in your leg slowly die
and be replaced. Clearly there is a big qualitative difference and their
invocation of a silly presocratic word game sheds no light on the
subject.
--
_____________________________________________________
Quibbler (quibbler247atyahoo.com)
"It is fashionable to wax apocalyptic about the
threat to humanity posed by the AIDS virus, 'mad cow'
disease, and many others, but I think a case can be
made that faith is one of the world's great evils,
comparable to the smallpox virus but harder to
eradicate." -- Richard Dawkins
.



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