| Topic: |
Religions > Atheism |
| User: |
"Budikka666" |
| Date: |
30 Sep 2005 05:16:37 PM |
| Object: |
Simple Quiz For Creationists |
This article:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/4292426.stm
reports that bird flu, once it gets loose among the human population,
could conceivably kill anywhere between 2 million and 150 million.
Even 2 million would make the 9/11 death toll look paltry.
If and when this happens, who or what is going to save most lives?
Will it be:
A. Creation science?
B. Intelligent design?
C. Prayers of believers
D. The hard work of scientists whose understanding of the virus is
grounded in the science of evolution?
Support your answer with solid evidence.
Budikka
.
|
|
| User: "Dave Worthey" |
|
| Title: Re: Simple Quiz For Creationists |
02 Oct 2005 03:47:13 PM |
|
|
In article <1128118597.234981.233200
@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com>,
says...
[|] :This article:
[|] :http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/4292426.stm
[|] :reports that bird flu, once it gets loose among the human population,
[|] :could conceivably kill anywhere between 2 million and 150 million.
[|] :
[|] :Even 2 million would make the 9/11 death toll look paltry.
[|] :
[|] :If and when this happens, who or what is going to save most lives?
[|] :Will it be:
[|] :A. Creation science?
[|] :B. Intelligent design?
[|] :C. Prayers of believers
[|] :D. The hard work of scientists whose understanding of the virus is
[|] :grounded in the science of evolution?
[|] :
[|] :Support your answer with solid evidence.
[|] :
[|] :Budikka
The scientific community, since the other options are
not comprised of individuals with the capacity to
assist.
Essentially you have given the choices
a. belief
b. belief
c. practice of belief
d. individuals capable of acting on behalf of the
afflicted.
Thank you for playing...;0)
davers_dfd
davers_dfd
.
|
|
|
| User: "John Baker" |
|
| Title: Re: Simple Quiz For Creationists |
02 Oct 2005 04:05:55 PM |
|
|
On Sun, 2 Oct 2005 13:47:13 -0700, Dave Worthey
<daveworthey@hotmail.com> wrote:
In article <1128118597.234981.233200
@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com>,
says...
[|] :This article:
[|] :http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/4292426.stm
[|] :reports that bird flu, once it gets loose among the human population,
[|] :could conceivably kill anywhere between 2 million and 150 million.
[|] :
[|] :Even 2 million would make the 9/11 death toll look paltry.
[|] :
[|] :If and when this happens, who or what is going to save most lives?
[|] :Will it be:
[|] :A. Creation science?
[|] :B. Intelligent design?
[|] :C. Prayers of believers
[|] :D. The hard work of scientists whose understanding of the virus is
[|] :grounded in the science of evolution?
[|] :
[|] :Support your answer with solid evidence.
[|] :
[|] :Budikka
The scientific community, since the other options are
not comprised of individuals with the capacity to
assist.
Essentially you have given the choices
a. belief
b. belief
c. practice of belief
d. individuals capable of acting on behalf of the
afflicted.
Thank you for playing...;0)
And thank you for admitting that religion is worthless. ;-)
davers_dfd
davers_dfd
.
|
|
|
| User: "Dave Worthey" |
|
| Title: Re: Simple Quiz For Creationists |
02 Oct 2005 04:10:22 PM |
|
|
In article <jsi0k1hsoirodccud5m3n6a8vbmfl6gehg@
4ax.com>, says...
[|] :On Sun, 2 Oct 2005 13:47:13 -0700, Dave Worthey
[|] :<daveworthey@hotmail.com> wrote:
[|] :
[|] :And thank you for admitting that religion is worthless. ;-)
I did not.
davers_dfd
.
|
|
|
| User: "Budikka666" |
|
| Title: Re: Simple Quiz For Creationists |
03 Oct 2005 04:27:01 PM |
|
|
Dave Worthey wrote:
In article <jsi0k1hsoirodccud5m3n6a8vbmfl6gehg@
4ax.com>, says...
[|] :On Sun, 2 Oct 2005 13:47:13 -0700, Dave Worthey
[|] :<daveworthey@hotmail.com> wrote:
[|] :
[|] :And thank you for admitting that religion is worthless. ;-)
I did not.
davers_dfd
But you did admit that prayer is useless.
Budikka
.
|
|
|
| User: "Dave Worthey" |
|
| Title: Re: Simple Quiz For Creationists |
03 Oct 2005 09:24:48 PM |
|
|
In article <1128374820.982832.122610
@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,
says...
[|] :Dave Worthey wrote:
[|] :> In article <jsi0k1hsoirodccud5m3n6a8vbmfl6gehg@
[|] :> 4ax.com>, says...
[|] :> [|] :On Sun, 2 Oct 2005 13:47:13 -0700, Dave Worthey
[|] :> [|] :<daveworthey@hotmail.com> wrote:
[|] :>
[|] :> [|] :
[|] :> [|] :And thank you for admitting that religion is worthless. ;-)
[|] :>
[|] :> I did not.
[|] :>
[|] :> davers_dfd
[|] :
[|] :But you did admit that prayer is useless.
[|] :
[|] :Budikka
[|] :
[|] :
You are mistaken.
davers_dfd
.
|
|
|
| User: "Budikka666" |
|
| Title: Re: Simple Quiz For Creationists |
04 Oct 2005 04:42:04 AM |
|
|
Dave Worthey wrote:
In article <1128374820.982832.122610
@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,
says...
[|] :Dave Worthey wrote:
[|] :> In article <jsi0k1hsoirodccud5m3n6a8vbmfl6gehg@
[|] :> 4ax.com>, says...
[|] :> [|] :On Sun, 2 Oct 2005 13:47:13 -0700, Dave Worthey
[|] :> [|] :<daveworthey@hotmail.com> wrote:
[|] :>
[|] :> [|] :
[|] :> [|] :And thank you for admitting that religion is worthless. ;-)
[|] :>
[|] :> I did not.
[|] :>
[|] :> davers_dfd
[|] :
[|] :But you did admit that prayer is useless.
[|] :
[|] :Budikka
[|] :
[|] :
You are mistaken.
You are a liar.
Budikka
.
|
|
|
| User: "Dave Worthey" |
|
| Title: Re: Simple Quiz For Creationists |
05 Oct 2005 12:00:45 AM |
|
|
In article <1128418924.362196.283450
@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,
says...
[|] :Dave Worthey wrote:
[|] :> In article <1128374820.982832.122610
[|] :> @g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,
[|] :> says...
[|] :> [|] :Dave Worthey wrote:
[|] :> [|] :> In article <jsi0k1hsoirodccud5m3n6a8vbmfl6gehg@
[|] :> [|] :> 4ax.com>, says...
[|] :> [|] :> [|] :On Sun, 2 Oct 2005 13:47:13 -0700, Dave Worthey
[|] :> [|] :> [|] :<daveworthey@hotmail.com> wrote:
[|] :> [|] :>
[|] :> [|] :> [|] :
[|] :> [|] :> [|] :And thank you for admitting that religion is worthless. ;-)
[|] :> [|] :>
[|] :> [|] :> I did not.
[|] :> [|] :>
[|] :> [|] :> davers_dfd
[|] :> [|] :
[|] :> [|] :But you did admit that prayer is useless.
[|] :> [|] :
[|] :> [|] :Budikka
[|] :> [|] :
[|] :> [|] :
[|] :>
[|] :> You are mistaken.
[|] :
[|] :You are a liar.
[|] :
[|] :Budikka
[|] :
[|] :
You are entitled to your opinion.
davers_dfd
.
|
|
|
| User: "Budikka666" |
|
| Title: Re: Simple Quiz For Creationists |
05 Oct 2005 04:42:50 PM |
|
|
You are entitled to your opinion.
It's not an opinion, it's a blatant fact. You admitted that prayer is
worthless. Deal with your insecurities before they overwhelm you.
Budikka
.
|
|
|
| User: "" |
|
| Title: Re: Simple Quiz For Creationists |
05 Oct 2005 08:51:13 PM |
|
|
Budikka666 wrote:
<snip>
The following is the newspaper article I referred to in a previous
posting:
'In God we trust to live healthier and longer'. Sydney Morning Herald,
January 21, 2003, written by Kelly Burke, Religious Affairs Writer. It
gives some details of an article in the then latest edition of the
Medical Journal of Australia.
Variation, information and the created kind.
http://www.answersingenesis.org/tj/v5/i1/kind.asp
Information Theory Questions and Answers
http://www.answersingenesis.org/home/area/faq/infotheory.asp
I am occupied in other ways at present. I will resume posting as I have
more time to go through your posting in mor edetail.
Gladys Swager
.
|
|
|
| User: "" |
|
| Title: Re: Simple Quiz For Creationists |
06 Oct 2005 06:50:36 PM |
|
|
wrote:
Budikka666 wrote:
<snip>
The following is the newspaper article I referred to in a previous
posting:
'In God we trust to live healthier and longer'. Sydney Morning Herald,
January 21, 2003, written by Kelly Burke, Religious Affairs Writer. It
gives some details of an article in the then latest edition of the
Medical Journal of Australia.
I have been given permission by the author of this article to include
it on this website.
Heathenism is apparently a health hazard, with research pointing to a
link between religious conviction and longevity.
Those who consider the spiritual dimension essential to their lives not
only live longer, a study in the latest edition of The Medical Journal
of Australia asserts. They are also healthier - with lower blood
pressure, lower choleserol and lower rates of cancers - and less likely
to abuse drugs and alcohol.
But are they having any fun? Probably more, according to Harold Koenig,
director and founder of the Centre for the Study of
Religion/Spirituality and Health at Duke University in the United
States, who concludes that godliness also reduces the rate of
depression and suicide, as well as increasing the chance of a happy
marriage.
Although Professor Koenig's findings have been drawn from US research,
he believes that they are applicable to Australians.
'Exposing medical students in Australia to the role that religion plays
in coping with illness and the research connecting religion and health
should not be delayed," he writes in the journal. "There is ample
evidence to support some cautious first steps."
The University of Melbournes's professorial fellow in community health,
Hedley Peach, who is also published in the journal, disputes Professor
Koenig's assumptions that the US findings can be imposed onto a
strongly secular Australian society. "Religion isn't as important to
Australians as it is to Americans," he said.
"I doubt more than 25% of Australians are frequent churchgoers, but
that doesn't mean we're not spiritual - we just need a broader
definition of religion."
Most of the US reasearh on religious practice and well-being appeared
to be narrowly defined and Christian-centric, Professor Peach said.
This [research] seems to be saying it's time doctors got involved and
enquired into their patients' spirituality, where a chaplain or social
worker might be the more appropriate person," he said.
<snip>
Two points of my own, at this time. As a Christian I prayed that cures
and preventive methods might be found for what are called Mental
Illnesses and became an advocate of reform in respect of treatments
given prior to 1975. In 1976, from Malcolm Fraser's (then prime
Minister of Australia), Community Youth Support Scheme I gave my local
council a similar plan for all ages, but to be implemented by
volunteers. Later, post-Secondary studies began in a TAFE, a College of
Advanced Education and others in the succeeding years.
Professionals and politicians can and do take ideas from others and
with their access to public funds can implement them as if they
originated with them. they tend not to give credit where credit is due.
Gladys Swager
.
|
|
|
| User: "Budikka666" |
|
| Title: Re: Simple Quiz For Creationists |
06 Oct 2005 07:27:41 PM |
|
|
wrote:
I have been given permission by the author of this article to include
it on this website.
More credit to you. Most so-called Christians post this kind of thing
wholesale in alt.atheism often without even an acknowledgement, let
alone permission.
However, since I dug up the very article myself and gave you the URL to
it as proof in another message, and since I have addressed it there, I
shall not address it here except to say that it is not a peer-reviewed
science paper, it is merely a commentary on a study published
elsewhere.
Besides, prayer has been discredited in science studies. The study
that the article you are talking of may well be the one discussed at
this URL:
http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/gary_posner/godccu.html
Some apparent benefit was shown, but the study was fatally flawed,
because you cannot control prayer. The idea was the one group would
*not* get prayed for while the other would, but there was no way to
know whether any of those in the "unprayed for" group actually *did*
get prayed for by family memebers, by medical staff, or by their
church. The fact is that they more than likely did, which puts
believers in the awful position of having to maintain that, despite
prayer, god arbitrarily chose to look more favorably on some than on
others. In other words, even if the study worked it proves prayer does
not!
Now let's address your cowardice in a previous challenge of mine, where
I suggested that you put prayer to an undisputable test. I notice that
you carefully avoided even addressing that, which is why I took the cup
that passed your lips and said the prayer myself. I said two of them
and both of them were said in Jesus's name.
The first prayer was that all people everywhere would become well and
whole, and for all maladies to leave them. I prayed for all children
to be fed, for all aggression to cease and for all of this to happen at
the stroke of midnight last night. As you can see from the shape the
world is in today, the prayer was not answered, ergo Jesus lied or
there is no god to answer it.
I said a second prayer that evolution would cease to be taught in
schools the world over if god wills it and I said *that* one in Jesus'
name, too. So either there is no god or he wants evolution taught in
school.
I just now prayed that if God wants creation or intelligent design
taught in school, this will happen the world over at midnight tonight.
Care to bet on the outcome?
And I haven't even begun to address the fundamentally flawed
*philosophy* underlying claims that a god listens to and answers
prayers.
[Rest of unsupported claims deleted as promised]
Budikka
.
|
|
|
| User: "" |
|
| Title: Re: Simple Quiz For Creationists |
08 Oct 2005 06:09:32 PM |
|
|
Budikka666 wrote:
swager@ozemail.com.au wrote:
<snip> ......, prayer has been discredited in science studies. The
study
that the article you are talking of may well be the one discussed at
this URL:
http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/gary_posner/godccu.html
Some apparent benefit was shown, but the study was fatally flawed,
because you cannot control prayer. The idea was the one group would
*not* get prayed for while the other would, but there was no way to
know whether any of those in the "unprayed for" group actually *did*
get prayed for by family memebers, by medical staff, or by their
church. The fact is that they more than likely did, which puts
believers in the awful position of having to maintain that, despite
prayer, god arbitrarily chose to look more favorably on some than on
others. In other words, even if the study worked it proves prayer does
not!
I was aware of some of the objections you have given above, but I
concentrated on posting the Sydney Morning Herald article.
While I know that control and experimental groups are used in both
medical and educational research I am disturbed by the idea that one
group will be given a new method assessed as being more beneficial and
those benefits determined on a percentage basis by the results obtained
from the group not given it. That is just not ethical.
However, in respect of Christian prayer, I have read (sorry, I can give
a reference - I do not have a photographic memory) and it has been my
experience that praying for oneself can be more effective.
Now let's address your cowardice in a previous challenge of mine,
I can assure you it wasn't cowardice. I delayed in answering as I was
thinking through the issues of a challenge that had never been given me
before.
where I suggested that you put prayer to an undisputable test. I
notice that
you carefully avoided even addressing that, which is why I took the cup
that passed your lips and said the prayer myself. I said two of them
and both of them were said in Jesus's name.
The first prayer was that all people everywhere would become well and
whole, and for all maladies to leave them. I prayed for all children
to be fed, for all aggression to cease and for all of this to happen at
the stroke of midnight last night. As you can see from the shape the
world is in today, the prayer was not answered, ergo Jesus lied or
there is no god to answer it.
God does not do miraculously what we can do ourselves. There are many
who are providing for the needy in the world - directly at the point of
distribution - many, I would think praying for strength to go the
'extra mile', praying for more people to become involved as the are
able both in the field and at home.
Australians are becoming more conscious of those in need. However, the
lastest electronic 'gadget' can induce the opening of the wallet
quicker than the needs in other parts of the world. The thinking goes
something like this 1 person in need in our own family is of more value
than 10 in Indonesia, 100 in Africa, 1000 in South America, 10 000 in
Korea. That's from memory and not quite the same as the original.
Our prayer should be for understandings of how we can best help - eiher
directly or indirectly.
I said a second prayer that evolution would cease to be taught in
schools the world over if god wills it and I said *that* one in Jesus'
name, too. So either there is no god or he wants evolution taught in
school.
Do you really want that prayer to be answered? Then you only said
words, you were not praying in faith. Others are praying in faith for
Creationism to be understood - donating for the distribution of
materials, without relying on the Government public purse to pay as
those do who teach evolution in the public school system.
I just now prayed that if God wants creation or intelligent design
taught in school, this will happen the world over at midnight tonight.
Care to bet on the outcome?
You are demanding that God works to your schedule. You forget that
school policies are determined by academics and politicians. However,
there are people praying for guidance to bring that about, that those
in positions of authority will understand the mistakes of the past and
change directions.
And I haven't even begun to address the fundamentally flawed
*philosophy* underlying claims that a god listens to and answers
prayers.
The Almighty God of the Judeo-Christian faiths of the Old and New
Testaments is a Spirit. God works through those who believe and trust
in Him.
It is apparent to me that you may have to have a time of extreme crisis
when you will ask God to reveal Himself to you in such a way that you
will not question and doubt.
[Rest of unsupported claims deleted as promised]
Gladys Swager
.
|
|
|
| User: "Budikka666" |
|
| Title: Re: Simple Quiz For Creationists |
09 Oct 2005 06:57:29 AM |
|
|
wrote:
I was aware of some of the objections you have given above, but I
concentrated on posting the Sydney Morning Herald article.
While I know that control and experimental groups are used in both
medical and educational research I am disturbed by the idea that one
group will be given a new method assessed as being more beneficial and
those benefits determined on a percentage basis by the results obtained
from the group not given it. That is just not ethical.
However, in respect of Christian prayer, I have read (sorry, I can give
a reference - I do not have a photographic memory) and it has been my
experience that praying for oneself can be more effective.
Again, without the science you have the same thing you've been giving
all along - a subjective opinion which is not of any scientific value.
Anecdote and newspaper opinions do not a scientific case make.
The question was simple - does experience show that disease is cured by
creationism, intelligent design, prayer, or medicine, which releases in
part on the Theory of Evolution being correct. And the answer from
common experience is that medicine is what does the trick.
Now let's address your cowardice in a previous challenge of mine,
I can assure you it wasn't cowardice. I delayed in answering as I was
thinking through the issues of a challenge that had never been given me
before.
That's exactly what it is. The quesiton was simple, and you have
answered it in the same way every time. You have not brought anything
new to the discussion (least of all science) as this message (rest
erased) shows.
Budikka
.
|
|
|
|
| User: "thomas p" |
|
| Title: Re: Simple Quiz For Creationists |
09 Oct 2005 02:55:34 AM |
|
|
On 8 Oct 2005 16:09:32 -0700, wrote:
Budikka666 wrote:
wrote:
snip
The first prayer was that all people everywhere would become well and
whole, and for all maladies to leave them. I prayed for all children
to be fed, for all aggression to cease and for all of this to happen at
the stroke of midnight last night. As you can see from the shape the
world is in today, the prayer was not answered, ergo Jesus lied or
there is no god to answer it.
God does not do miraculously what we can do ourselves. There are many
who are providing for the needy in the world - directly at the point of
distribution - many, I would think praying for strength to go the
'extra mile', praying for more people to become involved as the are
able both in the field and at home.
Australians are becoming more conscious of those in need. However, the
lastest electronic 'gadget' can induce the opening of the wallet
quicker than the needs in other parts of the world. The thinking goes
something like this 1 person in need in our own family is of more value
than 10 in Indonesia, 100 in Africa, 1000 in South America, 10 000 in
Korea. That's from memory and not quite the same as the original.
Our prayer should be for understandings of how we can best help - eiher
directly or indirectly.
In the meantime children are starving to death. Many people do all
they can to help. God, assuming his existence, could have seen to it
that such suffering never happened. Believers continute to make
excuses.
Thomas P.
"Life must be lived forwards but understood backwards"
(Kierkegaard)
.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| User: "Budikka666" |
|
| Title: Re: Simple Quiz For Creationists |
06 Oct 2005 07:06:36 PM |
|
|
wrote:
Budikka666 wrote:
I note that you've studiously avoided addressing a single one of the
references I supplied, and your reponse, far from being the cornucopia
of scientific support that is required of you if you are to pursue your
position, is filled, predictably, once again, with references tor
eligious web sites.
However, since I am more chrisitan than any Christian I meet on Usenet,
I will once again refute your position by supporting mine. However,
this is the vry last time I will grant you this favor. Next time it's
science from you or you will become yet another object of my ridicule.
The following is the newspaper article I referred to in a previous
posting:
'In God we trust to live healthier and longer'. Sydney Morning Herald,
January 21, 2003, written by Kelly Burke, Religious Affairs Writer. It
gives some details of an article in the then latest edition of the
Medical Journal of Australia.
Here is your "study", as far as I could track it down in the time I was
willing to devote to it. It suggests nothing of the sort you appear to
be claiming for it:
http://www.mja.com.au/public/issues/178_02_200103/koe10531_fm.html
This is not a peer-reviewed study of prayer, so you have once again
failed to support your claims.
Variation, information and the created kind.
http://www.answersingenesis.org/tj/v5/i1/kind.asp
Annswers in Genesis is a religious orgnaization. They do not do
scientific research and they publish no papers in science journals.
Their material is not peer-reviewed in any meaningful sense. Much of
it has been soundly refuted.
Carl Weiland is a pastor, not a scientist. The article you cite is
nothing more than a statement of blind faith by a pastor. It contains
no science. One thing it does contain is endless lies. Beneficial
mutations have been seen. Changes in genes, whereby genes become
duplicated and over time assume new functions have been documented.
Your own blood contains several such examples. This is evolution at
work.
The genomes of mice, chimpanzees and humans have been mapped and found
to be almost identical, especially in the comparison of human with
chimpanzee.
Since mutations do occur and have been documented, since genomes do
rearrange themselves, since genes do duplicate and assume new
functions, then the plain and simple fact is that until and unless
creationists can scientifically demonstrate a mechanism which prevents
a genome from transforming itself over time from one "kind" to another,
creationists have lost.
Did you even read Weiland's article? Nowhere in it does he define
"kind". In fact, he does precisely the opposite. In item 3,
paragraph 1, he specifically states that creationists should "Avoid
taxonomic definitions of the created kind...". In other words, he
openly admits what I have stated, that no creationist anywhere ever has
scientifically defined "kind" and moreover, Weiland advocates cowardice
in this regard.
If a "kind" were truly an immutable unit of existence for organisms,
then defining it and defining the mechanism which prevents variation
from one kind to another ought to be the easiest thing in the world,
but creationists avoid this like the plague. Any schoolkid *ought* to
be able to define it if it were something other than a Bible myth, yet
no creationist can or dare. This is proof postive that they are liars
and have no support for their bizarre claims.
Parthenogenesis proves creationists wrong. This fact of life is
evident from one single species in nature: the Western Whiptail lizard
(Cnemidophorus tigris).
According to the creationists (who cannot offer a shred of evidence let
alone proof for their claims) this lizard can only have been created
directly by a god. Yet the Bible claims that everything was created
male and female according to their kind. What happened to the male of
*this* species? Yet if this lizard started out as a mating pair,
macroevolution must have taken place to render it into the state in
which it now exists.
C. tigris is considered to be monophyletic - that is, it's in a class
of its own - or more appropriately in this case, a "kind". No matter
how desperately creationists try to wriggle, they cannot wriggle out of
the fact that *even if a god created this "kind", it has still
subsequently evolved trhough genetic mutation into a different "kind"
from what it was originally, and if this species can evolve from one
"kind" to another, then so can any other organism, and design is
neither necessary nor intelligent.
Since speciation is macroevolution and Weiland admits to it, he has
given away the whole thing, because once speciation is possible, as C.
tigris demonstrates, then changes such as the one going from a
mouse-like ancestor to a modern human over 60 million years are
guaranteed.
Once again, you've failed to support your claims or to answer the
simple questions I've put, and in doing so you've dug yourself deeper
into your inescapable burrow.
Information Theory Questions and Answers
http://www.answersingenesis.org/home/area/faq/infotheory.asp
I asked you for **SCIENTIFIC** support for your claims, and you have
avoided that like the plague in every response you ahve made. Do you
want to know why? Because you have none, and this is why you're
persistently refering me to religious web sites instead of science
journals or web sites that refer back to science journals.
Information theory (assuming they even got it right in the first place,
which is doubtful given AiG's track record) is inapplicable to genetic
evolution:
http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/information/infotheory.html
I am occupied in other ways at present. I will resume posting as I have
more time to go through your posting in mor edetail.
Please do not bother unless:
1. You are going to address the scientific case I've made, instead of
avoiding it and posting yet more religious nonesnse.
2. You are oging to support your position with something other than
references to religious web sites.
In future responses I shall delete everything that is not supported by
solid science or by rational argument. URLs to religious web sites
will be completely ignored.
Budikka
.
|
|
|
|
|
| User: "Dave Worthey" |
|
| Title: Re: Simple Quiz For Creationists |
05 Oct 2005 09:19:12 PM |
|
|
In article <1128548570.227681.314890
@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>,
says...
[|] :> You are entitled to your opinion.
[|] :
[|] :It's not an opinion, it's a blatant fact. You admitted that prayer is
[|] :worthless. Deal with your insecurities before they overwhelm you.
[|] :
[|] :Budikka
[|] :
[|] :
You must be related to Carol...;0)
davers_dfd
.
|
|
|
| User: "Budikka666" |
|
| Title: Re: Simple Quiz For Creationists |
06 Oct 2005 07:38:39 PM |
|
|
Dave Worthey wrote:
You must be related to Carol...;0)
davers_dfd
And you're a coward and a liar. Face the truth. Support your
assertions or keep running.
Budikka
.
|
|
|
| User: "Dave Worthey" |
|
| Title: Re: Simple Quiz For Creationists |
07 Oct 2005 12:23:19 AM |
|
|
In article <1128645518.989486.185260
@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>,
says...
[|] :Dave Worthey wrote:
[|] :
[|] :> You must be related to Carol...;0)
[|] :>
[|] :> davers_dfd
[|] :
[|] :And you're a coward and a liar. Face the truth. Support your
[|] :assertions or keep running.
[|] :
[|] :Budikka
[|] :
[|] :
LOL...
You genuinely have a personal problem!
davers_disfellowshiped
.
|
|
|
| User: "Budikka666" |
|
| Title: Re: Simple Quiz For Creationists |
08 Oct 2005 06:08:23 AM |
|
|
Dave Worthey wrote:
In article <1128645518.989486.185260
@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>,
says...
[|] :Dave Worthey wrote:
[|] :
[|] :> You must be related to Carol...;0)
[|] :>
[|] :> davers_dfd
[|] :
[|] :And you're a coward and a liar. Face the truth. Support your
[|] :assertions or keep running.
[|] :
[|] :Budikka
[|] :
[|] :
LOL...
You genuinely have a personal problem!
I'd rather have that than be a liar and a coward. But the problem is
all yours. You cannot support what you say and foolishly seek to hide
your inpotence with ad hominem attacks. Change your handle to Un
Worthey and you'll be closer to the truth.
Budikka
.
|
|
|
| User: "Dave Worthey" |
|
| Title: Re: Simple Quiz For Creationists |
09 Oct 2005 12:03:26 AM |
|
|
In article <1128769702.974409.96210
@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,
says...
[|] :Dave Worthey wrote:
[|] :> In article <1128645518.989486.185260
[|] :> @f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>,
[|] :> says...
[|] :> [|] :Dave Worthey wrote:
[|] :> [|] :
[|] :> [|] :> You must be related to Carol...;0)
[|] :> [|] :>
[|] :> [|] :> davers_dfd
[|] :> [|] :
[|] :> [|] :And you're a coward and a liar. Face the truth. Support your
[|] :> [|] :assertions or keep running.
[|] :> [|] :
[|] :> [|] :Budikka
[|] :> [|] :
[|] :> [|] :
[|] :>
[|] :> LOL...
[|] :>
[|] :> You genuinely have a personal problem!
[|] :
[|] :I'd rather have that than be a liar and a coward. But the problem is
[|] :all yours. You cannot support what you say and foolishly seek to hide
[|] :your inpotence with ad hominem attacks. Change your handle to Un
[|] :Worthey and you'll be closer to the truth.
[|] :
[|] :Budikka
[|] :
[|] :
Obsess much?
davers_dfd
.
|
|
|
| User: "Budikka666" |
|
| Title: Re: Simple Quiz For Creationists |
09 Oct 2005 06:53:33 AM |
|
|
Dave Worthey wrote:
Obsess much?
davers_dfd
Get a clue much, *****?
Budikka
.
|
|
|
| User: "Dave Worthey" |
|
| Title: Re: Simple Quiz For Creationists |
09 Oct 2005 02:42:26 PM |
|
|
In article <1128858813.417566.300010
@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,
says...
[|] :Dave Worthey wrote:
[|] :
[|] :> Obsess much?
[|] :>
[|] :> davers_dfd
[|] :
[|] :Get a clue much, *****?
[|] :
[|] :Budikka
[|] :
[|] :
Thank you for demonstrating the validity of my
question!
davers_dfd
"When I would not play his game, he retreated into
infantile chants of "Cowardice!" -ian wood
http://makeashorterlink.com/?L280353FB
http://makeashorterlink.com/?V270213FB
.
|
|
|
| User: "Budikka666" |
|
| Title: Re: Simple Quiz For Creationists |
11 Oct 2005 04:14:45 PM |
|
|
Dave Worthey wrote:
Thank you for demonstrating the validity of my
question!
There is no validity to anything you've posted so far. Let me remind
you of the topic of the thread. If you cannot address it,
shut-the-*****-up with your idiotic, juvenile *****, moron. That
clear enough for you?
This article:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/4292426.stm
reports that bird flu, once it gets loose among the human population,
could conceivably kill anywhere between 2 million and 150 million.
Even 2 million would make the 9/11 death toll look paltry.
If and when this happens, who or what is going to save most lives?
Will it be:
A. Creation science?
B. Intelligent design?
C. Prayers of believers
D. The hard work of scientists whose understanding of the virus is
grounded in the science of evolution?
Support your answer with solid evidence.
Budikka
.
|
|
|
| User: "" |
|
| Title: Re: Simple Quiz For Creationists |
11 Oct 2005 07:57:14 PM |
|
|
Budikka, In your posting, October 12, 7:14 am, you are inferring that
only scientists whose work is based on the science of evolution can
provide the answers to problems in the world.
It may be that scientists who have accepted evolution, either as a
Godless ideology or as God's way of creating and diversifying that
creation, who will be able to find preventitive and curative means for
Bird 'flu, but the solutions may come from Creation scientists, if
there are persons in that belief system who have the necessary
scientific training.
You appear to be implying that Creationists are ignoramuses concerning
higher Tertiary level skills. If you are of that opinion the following
may dispel it:-
Do Creationists publish in Notable refereed journals?
http://www.answersingenesis.org/docs/538.asp
Do creation scientists publish in secular journals?
http://www.answersingenesis.org/creation/v20/i1/question.asp
Creation scientists and other biographies of interest
http://www.answersingenesis.org/home/area/bios/default.asp
Dr Jonathan D. Sarfati B.Sc. (Hons) Ph.D., F.M. Creation Physical
Chemist and Spectroscopist AiG (Australia) - Biography
http://www.answersingenesis.org/Home/Area/bios/j_sarfati.asp
Dr Donald James Batten Creationist Agricultural Scientist
(Australia)]http://answersingenesis.org/Home/Area/bios/d_batten.asp
I can't say whether there are medical researchers who are Creationists
doing research into the Bird 'flu virus. But the fact that there are
Creationists doing research in many areas of scientific knowledge
indicates that the acceptance of evolution is NOT NECESSARY for their
studies.
Gladys Swager
.
|
|
|
| User: "Budikka666" |
|
| Title: Re: Simple Quiz For Creationists |
13 Oct 2005 05:02:00 AM |
|
|
wrote:
Budikka, In your posting, October 12, 7:14 am, you are inferring that
only scientists whose work is based on the science of evolution can
provide the answers to problems in the world.
This is a lie. The question that opened this thread specified bird flu
- go back and look at it. It talked about whether or not medicine had
a proven track record compared with prayer. Please, get your
statements correct. Creationists and intelligent design advocates are
well-known for lying and distorting the truth. I expect better from
you.
The fact is that creationists do not have any sort of theory, let alone
one that can tie together so many apparently disparate facts from a
variety of fields of scientific endeavor as the Theory of Evolution
can, established by 150 years of evidence **PUBLISHED BY PEOPLE OF ALL
FAITHS AND NATIONALITIES IN PEER-REVIEWED SCIENCE JOURNALS THE WORLD
OVER**.
It may be that scientists who have accepted evolution, either as a
Godless ideology
Another lie. The Theory of Evolution says *nothing* about the
suopernatural. It cannot. It is science - the study of the natural.
If it is godless, how come so many believers support it? How come so
many scientists who accept god also accept evolution?
or as God's way of creating and diversifying that
creation, who will be able to find preventitive and curative means for
Bird 'flu, but the solutions may come from Creation scientists, if
there are persons in that belief system who have the necessary
scientific training.
That's precisely the point. There are not. They do no science with
regard to evolution. That's precisely why they are useless when it
comes to understanding things like influenza and HIV. We're been down
this path before, but apparently you were not paying attention.
You appear to be implying that Creationists are ignoramuses concerning
higher Tertiary level skills. If you are of that opinion the following
may dispel it:-
[References to Answers in Genesis site deleted]
First of all, I have answered this question time after time after time
after time. Please pay attention this time:
**ANSWERS IN GENESIS IS NOT A PEER-REVIEWED SCIENCE JOURNAL, IT IS A
DISCREDITED CREATIONIST WEB SITE**
I can't say whether there are medical researchers who are Creationists
doing research into the Bird 'flu virus. But the fact that there are
Creationists doing research in many areas of scientific knowledge
indicates that the acceptance of evolution is NOT NECESSARY for their
studies.
I never said that it was. When are you going to learn to pay attention
to what I say and respond to *that* rather than robotically parrot
stock creationist reponses inappropriately?
I acknowledged that creationists do publish papers in science journals
*in their own fields, such as hydrology*, but none of these papers have
anything to do with evolution. I specifically stated that creationists
do not publish papers on evolution.
This kills two birds with one stone:
1. When creationists claim they cannot get published in science
journals because of the "establihsment" they are lying, because they do
publish papers where their science is valid.
2. Creationists do not publish papers on evolution *not* becuase they
cannot get science papers publihsed but because they have no science to
back their creaiton position.
Creationists have *never* published any paper refiuting evolution or
establishing a better theory to explain the origin and diversity of
life.
Why is that?
Budikka
.
|
|
|
|
|
| User: "Dave Worthey" |
|
| Title: Re: Simple Quiz For Creationists |
11 Oct 2005 10:06:45 PM |
|
|
In article <1129065285.916717.21010
@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,
says...
[|] :Dave Worthey wrote:
[|] :
[|] :> Thank you for demonstrating the validity of my
[|] :> question!
[|] :
[|] :There is no validity to anything you've posted so far.
I would disagree with that assessment.
[|] :Let me remind
[|] :you of the topic of the thread.
Did you forget?
[|] :If you cannot address it,
[|] :shut-the-*****-up with your idiotic, juvenile *****, moron.
While it is true that I may loose interest in a
discussion with a primate whose ability to communicate
is inferior to 'Lucy's' mate, after weeks of
deprivation, at this point in time I have a bit of
time to waste, you seemed like the perfect way to
waste it...;0)
[|] :That
[|] :clear enough for you?
Uh...you are not the boss of me...;0)
Is that simple enough for you?
[|] :
[|] :This article:
[|] :http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/4292426.stm
[|] :reports that bird flu, once it gets loose among the human population,
[|] :could conceivably kill anywhere between 2 million and 150 million.
[|] :
[|] :Even 2 million would make the 9/11 death toll look paltry.
[|] :
[|] :If and when this happens, who or what is going to save most lives?
[|] :Will it be:
[|] :A. Creation science?
[|] :B. Intelligent design?
[|] :C. Prayers of believers
[|] :D. The hard work of scientists whose understanding of the virus is
[|] :grounded in the science of evolution?
[|] :
[|] :Support your answer with solid evidence.
[|] :
[|] :Budikka
[|] :
[|] :
Already addressed...'no soup for you'...;0)
davers_dfd
.
|
|
|
| User: "Budikka666" |
|
| Title: Re: Simple Quiz For Creationists |
13 Oct 2005 04:54:19 AM |
|
|
Dave Worthey wrote:
In article <1129065285.916717.21010
@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,
says...
[|] :This article:
[|] :http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/4292426.stm
[|] :reports that bird flu, once it gets loose among the human population,
[|] :could conceivably kill anywhere between 2 million and 150 million.
[|] :
[|] :Even 2 million would make the 9/11 death toll look paltry.
[|] :
[|] :If and when this happens, who or what is going to save most lives?
[|] :Will it be:
[|] :A. Creation science?
[|] :B. Intelligent design?
[|] :C. Prayers of believers
[|] :D. The hard work of scientists whose understanding of the virus is
[|] :grounded in the science of evolution?
[|] :
[|] :Support your answer with solid evidence.
[|] :
[|] :Budikka
You did not address it, you ran away from it as your messages show.
Try again, coward, or admit you are a coward, coward? You're also now
a liar. Care to go for hypocrite and get all three awards?
The fact is that neither prayer nor creationism ever cured anything
whereas the science of medicine, based in part on the theory of
Evolution, cures people all the time.
Your failure and cowardice in adequately addressing this will
inevitably be confirmed by your next response.
Budikka
.
|
|
|
| User: "Dave Worthey" |
|
| Title: Re: Simple Quiz For Creationists |
16 Oct 2005 02:15:09 AM |
|
|
In article <1129197259.418583.140560
@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com>,
says...
[|] :Dave Worthey wrote:
[|] :> In article <1129065285.916717.21010
[|] :> @g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,
[|] :> says...
[|] :> [|] :This article:
[|] :> [|] :http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/4292426.stm
[|] :> [|] :reports that bird flu, once it gets loose among the human population,
[|] :> [|] :could conceivably kill anywhere between 2 million and 150 million.
[|] :> [|] :
[|] :> [|] :Even 2 million would make the 9/11 death toll look paltry.
[|] :> [|] :
[|] :> [|] :If and when this happens, who or what is going to save most lives?
[|] :> [|] :Will it be:
[|] :> [|] :A. Creation science?
[|] :> [|] :B. Intelligent design?
[|] :> [|] :C. Prayers of believers
[|] :> [|] :D. The hard work of scientists whose understanding of the virus is
[|] :> [|] :grounded in the science of evolution?
[|] :> [|] :
[|] :> [|] :Support your answer with solid evidence.
[|] :> [|] :
[|] :> [|] :Budikka
[|] :
[|] :You did not address it, you ran away from it as your messages show.
You are delusional.
[|] :Try again, coward, or admit you are a coward, coward?
Cowardice? Over mere words on a monitor?
Are you _truly_ that insecure?
[|] :You're also now
[|] :a liar.
It is my opinion that you are incorrect.
Your opinion is none of my business...;0)
[|] :Care to go for hypocrite and get all three awards?
Just waiting for your other shoe to drop from your
mouth. However, to your credit, that is quite an
overbite...;0)
[|] :The fact is that neither prayer nor creationism ever cured anything
[|] :whereas the science of medicine, based in part on the theory of
[|] :Evolution, cures people all the time.
Prayer does help those who have faith, son. You may
'wish' it away, you may even 'pray' that it is not
true, however, for those who possess faith, who value
humility, it does.
Creationism, as a concept, is as beneficial to ones
who are ill as the concept that one's ancestor was an
ape. Concepts do not assist one who is ill. Faith in
the concept held may well benefit the one exercising
said faith, be it one whose confidence is in Jehovah,
or one whose confidence is in Chucky.
(Note: I am not a creationist)
That you seek to shore up the evolutionary theory by
weakly relating it to the medical sciences, attempting
to piggy back the two and thus paint evolution as a
means of salvation, is a deceitful premise. One who
behaves in such a manner _is_ a liar.
[|] :Your failure and cowardice in adequately addressing this will
[|] :inevitably be confirmed by your next response.
Your turn, ian...;0)
Dave
"When I would not play his game, he retreated into
infantile chants of "Cowardice!" -ian wood
http://makeashorterlink.com/?L280353FB
http://makeashorterlink.com/?V270213FB
.
|
|
|
| User: "Budikka666" |
|
| Title: Re: Simple Quiz For Creationists |
16 Oct 2005 03:06:02 AM |
|
|
Dave Worthey wrote:
Prayer does help those who have faith, son.
The issue isn't whether people delude themselves into thinking prayer
helps. The issue is whether prayer can fight viral ailments, and the
answer you're so abashedly struggling for, but apparently lacking the
intellectual integrity (or maybe just the intellect) to alight upon is,
quite simply, "No."
Creationism, as a concept, is as beneficial to ones
who are ill as the concept that one's ancestor was an
ape.
Well that pretty much sums you up as a complete moron when it comes to
dicussing both evolution and medicine.
Concepts do not assist one who is ill. Faith in
the concept held may well benefit the one exercising
said faith, be it one whose confidence is in Jehovah,
or one whose confidence is in Chucky.
The answer, again, is "No". Can you bring yourself to say it? Try it.
Try it just once in front of a mirror. You might even like yourself
saying it. See if you can find, somewhere inside you, buried deep and
long forgotten, the honesty to utter those two letters together.
That you seek to shore up the evolutionary theory
The fact that you have to lie about that is totally unsurprising. As
it patently clear to anyone with even two matching functional brain
cells, these messages are aimed at creationist liars like Pastor Dave,
at idiot members of school boards and at anyone else who mistakenly
believes that religious mythology is on par with science. That's why
this thread was titled "Simple Quiz for Creationists". Duhh.
The Theory of Evolution has 150 years of solid science behind it and
needs absolutely no help from me. But keep fumbling. Keep struggling.
Keep humming and ahh-ing like a four-year-old caught with his hand in
the cookie jar. Maybe you'll hit on a straw man that makes me laugh so
hard that I won't be able to gobsmack you again.
weakly relating it to the medical sciences,
It is solidly related to the medical sciences. Without it, it would
not be possible to competently explain many things about physiology or
to treat ailments, such as AIDS and influenza so readily.
The fact that you're as ignorant on this score as you are on everything
else you've tried so hamfistedly to tackle is, again, totally
unsurprising. But go ahead. Keep on posting your dumbass unsupported
scatterbrained beliefs and I'll keep laughing my ***** off.
attempting
to piggy back the two and thus paint evolution as a
means of salvation, is a deceitful premise. One who
behaves in such a manner _is_ a liar.
Salvation? No, no, you seem to be getting religion mixed into the
wrong side of the equation, but this is a common mistake. Science is a
valid methodology which produces concrete results, creationism is not.
It really is that simple, as, apparently, are you. Now if this really
is the best you can do, it's pretty pathetic. I'll give you one more
chance and then you're shitcanned. Sorry, but there are more important
things to do than waste time on the un-worthy.
Budikka
.
|
|
|
|
| User: "Siteldawgnumber1" |
|
| Title: Re: Simple Quiz For Creationists |
16 Oct 2005 02:37:24 AM |
|
|
On Sun, 16 Oct 2005 00:15:09 -0700, Dave Worthey <dave@dave.dave>
wrote:
In article <1129197259.418583.140560
@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com>,
says...
[|] :Dave Worthey wrote:
[|] :> In article <1129065285.916717.21010
[|] :> @g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,
[|] :> says...
[|] :> [|] :This article:
[|] :> [|] :http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/4292426.stm
[|] :> [|] :reports that bird flu, once it gets loose among the human population,
[|] :> [|] :could conceivably kill anywhere between 2 million and 150 million.
[|] :> [|] :
[|] :> [|] :Even 2 million would make the 9/11 death toll look paltry.
[|] :> [|] :
[|] :> [|] :If and when this happens, who or what is going to save most lives?
[|] :> [|] :Will it be:
[|] :> [|] :A. Creation science?
[|] :> [|] :B. Intelligent design?
[|] :> [|] :C. Prayers of believers
[|] :> [|] :D. The hard work of scientists whose understanding of the virus is
[|] :> [|] :grounded in the science of evolution?
[|] :> [|] :
[|] :> [|] :Support your answer with solid evidence.
[|] :> [|] :
[|] :> [|] :Budikka
[|] :
[|] :You did not address it, you ran away from it as your messages show.
You are delusional.
[|] :Try again, coward, or admit you are a coward, coward?
Cowardice? Over mere words on a monitor?
Are you _truly_ that insecure?
[|] :You're also now
[|] :a liar.
It is my opinion that you are incorrect.
Your opinion is none of my business...;0)
[|] :Care to go for hypocrite and get all three awards?
Just waiting for your other shoe to drop from your
mouth. However, to your credit, that is quite an
overbite...;0)
[|] :The fact is that neither prayer nor creationism ever cured anything
[|] :whereas the science of medicine, based in part on the theory of
[|] :Evolution, cures people all the time.
Prayer does help those who have faith, son. You may
'wish' it away, you may even 'pray' that it is not
true, however, for those who possess faith, who value
humility, it does.
Creationism, as a concept, is as beneficial to ones
who are ill as the concept that one's ancestor was an
ape. Concepts do not assist one who is ill. Faith in
the concept held may well benefit the one exercising
said faith, be it one whose confidence is in Jehovah,
or one whose confidence is in Chucky.
(Note: I am not a creationist)
That you seek to shore up the evolutionary theory by
weakly relating it to the medical sciences, attempting
to piggy back the two and thus paint evolution as a
means of salvation, is a deceitful premise. One who
behaves in such a manner _is_ a liar.
[|] :Your failure and cowardice in adequately addressing this will
[|] :inevitably be confirmed by your next response.
Your turn, ian...;0)
Oh, my, DF'ed Davers!
Still swimming about in these murky waters?
PS: I tried Gravity, upon your suggestion from last year, but found
no advantage to it. Did I miss something? No troll, just curious.
Dave
"When I would not play his game, he retreated into
infantile chants of "Cowardice!" -ian wood
http://makeashorterlink.com/?L280353FB
http://makeashorterlink.com/?V270213FB
.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Related Articles |
|
|
