Religions > Atheism > Skeptical about the LDS Church (WAS: Duwayne Anderson Is Not God)
| Topic: |
Religions > Atheism |
| User: |
"Kevin Simonson" |
| Date: |
03 Dec 2003 01:10:30 PM |
| Object: |
Skeptical about the LDS Church (WAS: Duwayne Anderson Is Not God) |
(Kevin Simonson) wrote in message
news:<6dfb1603.0311151755.752640ce@posting.google.com>...
=> Furthermore, in my last post I expressed a reason why I was
=> _skeptical_ that your plan would work.
=
=Now, if you could only learn to be _skeptical_ about the Church of
=Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.
Duwayne, do you think that I'm _not_ skeptical about the LDS
Church?
Do you think that when I read the Book of Mormon (my wife, kids,
and I are going through 3 Nephi right now, the story of the coming of
Jesus to the Americas), that I _don't_ sometimes wonder if Joseph
Smith didn't make the whole thing up, instead of translating it from
ancient records with divine help? Do you think that when I've heard
about the Kinderhook incident that I'm _not_ skeptical about Joseph
Smith's ability to discern a hoax from a genuine spiritual document?
Of course it doesn't stop there. It's very interesting that the
New Testament's two Christmas stories, Matthew 1-2 and Luke 1-2 both
name Bethlehem as the birthplace of Jesus of Nazareth, and yet they
disagree on where Mary and Joseph came from before Jesus' birth, they
disagree on where the three of them went after Jesus' birth, and they
disagree on what historical events were happening at the same time as
Jesus' birth. I'm _very_ skeptical about the Christmas story as de-
picted by the Bible.
I'm skeptical about the story of David's fight with Goliath.
Look at 1 Samuel closely. Why are there _two_ stories about how David
met Saul? One story has the two meeting because David wanted to fight
Goliath; the other has the two meeting because David is a good harp
player. Is it really all that likely that both those stories are
true?
Yes, the Book of Mormon is sometimes hard to take seriously. But
the hardest part of the Book of Mormon to believe is the story of the
Jaredites, and the hardest part of the story of the Jaredites to be-
lieve is that there _was_ a Tower of Babbel that they could have come
out of. Evangelicals make such loud noises about the archaeological
evidence in favor of the Bible. Where, then, is the archaeological
(and linguistical) evidence for a building built to reach to heaven,
with all of humanity speaking one language before the building was
started, and all of them speaking different languages when the build-
ing was abandoned?
I'm skeptical about the story of Joseph (son of Jacob) who was
sold by his brothers into slavery in Egypt. I'm skeptical about the
story of a flood that covered the tops of the mountains (when there's
no geological evidence of such a flood). I'm skeptical about all of
humanity descending from one couple, Adam and Eve, and about their
fall from God's grace simply because they ate two pieces of fruit.
Sometimes when I really, really, want something very bad, and
plead to God for God to please, please, let me have it, I think to my-
self that if it turns out that there isn't a deity after all, then my
pleadings would basically be a waste of time.
I think about all these doubtings, and many, many more, and I see
a lot of skepticism, Duwayne.
I've got a brain that can doubt. _I've also got a conscience_
that gives me a sense of responsibility. I've got three small chil-
dren. I owe them something more than a university education and their
share of a universe one generation closer to its inevitable decay.
With all my doubts, with all my cynicism, I'm still at my core an
optimist. Each person in this world needs to decide for herself/him-
self whether or not s/he believes in a deity. In spite of my doubts,
and because of my optimism, I have chosen to believe in a deity, and
even one who loves me and wants to communicate with me. When my three
children get old enough to hear what critics have to say about God,
I'm going to explain to them that in spite of everything the critics
say, an optimist will still believe in that type of a God, and we are
a family of optimists. And a faith in that type of deity leads di-
rectly to the central challenge of the LDS Church--once you believe in
that type of God you need to _go to that deity in prayer_, and ask
that deity if that deity supports the LDS Church.
So in spite of all my skepticism about the truthfulness of the
message that Joseph Smith brought to the world, I'm forced back to a
decision I made a long time ago, a decision that plants me firmly in
the very faith that I sometimes doubt. After all, for a man of con-
science, a man who feels he owes his children a better world than what
he started with, what's the alternative?
---Kevin Simonson
"Maybe it started as a dream, but doesn't everything?"
from _James and the Giant Peach_
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| User: "Jim07D3" |
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| Title: Re: Skeptical about the LDS Church (WAS: Duwayne Anderson Is Not God) |
03 Dec 2003 01:32:22 PM |
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(Kevin Simonson) said:
....
So in spite of all my skepticism about the truthfulness of the
message that Joseph Smith brought to the world, I'm forced back to a
decision I made a long time ago, a decision that plants me firmly in
the very faith that I sometimes doubt. After all, for a man of con-
science, a man who feels he owes his children a better world than what
he started with, what's the alternative?
....
Bestowing on them the skepticism that you have, while showing them the
value remaining in a community that does good, might be the best
available option.
Jim07D3
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| User: "Kevin Simonson" |
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| Title: Re: Skeptical about the LDS Church (WAS: Duwayne Anderson Is Not God) |
18 Dec 2003 05:03:02 PM |
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Jim07D3 <Jim07D3@nospam.net> wrote in message
news:<i6essvokeotjnrrls7rnco76a0cjb5l5r6@4ax.com>...
=> So in spite of all my skepticism about the truthfulness of the
=>message that Joseph Smith brought to the world, I'm forced back to a
=>decision I made a long time ago, a decision that plants me firmly in
=>the very faith that I sometimes doubt. After all, for a man of con-
=>science, a man who feels he owes his children a better world than what
=>he started with, what's the alternative?
=...
=
=Bestowing on them the skepticism that you have, while showing them the
=value remaining in a community that does good, might be the best
=available option.
I don't think I need to bestow any skepticism on them; they have
plenty of that themselves already. My youngest daughter just got done
telling me how she had figured out my wife and I actually were Santa
Claus. Not long before that my oldest daughter asked me how we can be
sure there is a God. (I didn't really know what to say to convince
her otherwise, so it could be that those doubts are still there.) So
it sounds like they have plenty of skepticism without me needing to
give them any of mine.
Jim, what exactly do you mean by "a community that does good"?
When you first mentioned that I was wondering if you were referring
indirectly to the LDS community, which certainly does a lot of good in
the world. Is that what you meant?
---Kevin Simonson
"Maybe it started as a dream, but doesn't everything?"
from _James and the Giant Peach_
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| User: "Blast Femur" |
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| Title: Re: Skeptical about the LDS Church (WAS: Duwayne Anderson Is Not God) |
03 Dec 2003 01:26:37 PM |
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(Kevin Simonson) wrote in
<6dfb1603.0312031110.32565154@posting.google.com>:
(Kevin Simonson) wrote in message
news:<6dfb1603.0311151755.752640ce@posting.google.com>...
=> Furthermore, in my last post I expressed a reason why I was
=> _skeptical_ that your plan would work.
=
=Now, if you could only learn to be _skeptical_ about the Church of
=Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.
Duwayne, do you think that I'm _not_ skeptical about the LDS
Church?
Do you think that when I read the Book of Mormon (my wife, kids,
and I are going through 3 Nephi right now, the story of the coming of
Jesus to the Americas), that I _don't_ sometimes wonder if Joseph
Smith didn't make the whole thing up, instead of translating it from
ancient records with divine help?
One needs to ponder here where these "ancient records" first popped up.
--
Blast Femur
______________
"A long time ago, God made a Divine Plan. Gave it a lot of thought, decided
it was a good plan, put it into practice. And for billions and billions of
years, the Divine Plan has been doing just fine. Now, you come along, and
pray for something. Well suppose the thing you want isn't in God's Divine
Plan? What do you want Him to do? Change His plan? Just for you? Doesn't it
seem a little arrogant? It's a Divine Plan. What's the use of being God if
every run-down shmuck with a two-dollar prayerbook can come along and *****
up Your Plan?"
-- George Carlin (NYC, 2/6/99)
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| User: "Kevin Simonson" |
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| Title: Re: Skeptical about the LDS Church (WAS: Duwayne Anderson Is Not God) |
27 Dec 2003 09:53:04 PM |
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(Blast Femur) wrote in message
news:<94467A063blastfemur@127.0.0.1>...
=> Do you think that when I read the Book of Mormon (my wife, kids,
=>and I are going through 3 Nephi right now, the story of the coming of
=>Jesus to the Americas), that I _don't_ sometimes wonder if Joseph
=>Smith didn't make the whole thing up, instead of translating it from
=>ancient records with divine help?
=
=One needs to ponder here where these "ancient records" first popped up.
Nobody knows where Moroni was when he put the finishing touches
on the volume that would become the Book of Mormon. But he finally
buried them on a hill near Palmyra, New York. Blast Femur, if you're
curious about the details I could get a pair of missionaries to come
discuss them with you. :)
---Kevin Simonson
"Maybe it started as a dream, but doesn't everything?"
from _James and the Giant Peach_
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| User: "Mike W" |
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| Title: Re: Skeptical about the LDS Church |
03 Dec 2003 02:44:46 PM |
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Blast Femur wrote:
Kevin Simonson wrote:
= Duwayne Anderson wrote:
=> Kevin Simonson wrote:
=> Furthermore, in my last post I expressed a reason
=> why I was _skeptical_ that your plan would work.
= Now, if you could only learn to be _skeptical_ about the
= Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.
Duwayne, do you think that I'm _not_ skeptical about
the LDS Church?
Do you think that when I read the Book of Mormon (my
wife, kids, and I are going through 3 Nephi right now,
the story of the coming of Jesus to the Americas), that
I _don't_ sometimes wonder if Joseph Smith didn't make
the whole thing up, instead of translating it from ancient
records with divine help?
One needs to ponder here where these "ancient records"
first popped up.
Or busy one's self contemplating where our descendants will be when the
galaxies have dissipated into nothingness. Save the plate thing for later
:-)
Mike
--
Blast Femur
______________
"A long time ago, God made a Divine Plan. Gave it a lot of
thought, decided it was a good plan, put it into practice.
And for billions and billions of years, the Divine Plan has
been doing just fine. Now, you come along, and pray for
something. Well suppose the thing you want isn't in God's
Divine Plan? What do you want Him to do? Change His plan?
Just for you? Doesn't it seem a little arrogant? It's a
Divine Plan. What's the use of being God if every run-down
shmuck with a two-dollar prayerbook can come along and *****
up Your Plan?"
-- George Carlin (NYC, 2/6/99)
.
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| User: "Will" |
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| Title: Re: Skeptical about the LDS Church (WAS: Duwayne Anderson Is Not God) |
04 Dec 2003 10:15:26 PM |
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(Kevin Simonson) wrote in message news:<6dfb1603.0312031110.32565154@posting.google.com>...
I've got a brain that can doubt. _I've also got a conscience_
that gives me a sense of responsibility. I've got three small chil-
dren. I owe them something more than a university education and their
share of a universe one generation closer to its inevitable decay.
My friend, you seem like a nice fellow, so please don't be too grieved
by this. Mormonism is a fraud -- crude, but successful -- originally
perpetrated by a liar, scoundrel and sexual predator of mammoth
proportion, Joseph Smith. Its sacred leaders, Smith, Young and the
others, were controlling, possessive, domineering and utterly
disgusting in their sexual perversions. (Any man with 20 or more wives
is bloody sick.) Today, it's most conservative adherents, who, despite
the larger church's rather laughable condemnation of its own apostles'
practices, still adhere to disgusting polygamous ways, regularly bed
girls in their early teens, and trade girls and women among one
another as if they were farm animals. Its theology would be
hysterically funny -- Protestantism as created by Monty Python -- if
so many people didn't take it seriously. There is nothing redeeming
about the religion. Even Mormon architecture is pathetically ugly.
You want to be a responsible parent. Good. Tell your children that
some people believe in a god or gods, but there is no proof whatever
that any deity exists. Tell them that the best way to live is to
develop your own sense of honor based on what you know to be true and
right, and to adhere to that sense of honor because you have to live
with what you do and be responsible for what you do because there is
no forgiveness from any god. Tell them that this world is all we have
and we should live for it, preserve its beauty, help our fellows when
they need help, and treat with respect and love every living thing.
Finally, tell them that the only things that will ever make them happy
are work and love, and to chose both carefully.
Put your bible and your silly Book of Mormon lies away. Read to your
children from Shakespeare and Mark Twain and John Steinbeck and from
the Oxford Book of English Verse. Read them tales from Randall's
biography of George Washington. Read them the Constitution -- there's
a version that interprets the words for children. Teach them about
Jefferson and Adams and the Revolutionary War. Tell them of evils of
slavery and of the war that ended it. Relate the bloody history of the
20th century and what occurred because men were blinded by ideology
and greed.
Will
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| User: "Kevin Simonson" |
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| Title: Re: Skeptical about the LDS Church (WAS: Duwayne Anderson Is Not God) |
06 Dec 2003 10:55:19 PM |
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(Will) wrote in message
news:<e6e41727.0312042015.10848c92@posting.google.com>...
=> I've got a brain that can doubt. _I've also got a conscience_
=> that gives me a sense of responsibility. I've got three small chil-
=> dren. I owe them something more than a university education and their
=> share of a universe one generation closer to its inevitable decay.
=>
=
=My friend, you seem like a nice fellow, so please don't be too grieved
=by this. Mormonism is a fraud -- crude, but successful -- originally
=perpetrated by a liar, scoundrel and sexual predator of mammoth
=proportion, Joseph Smith. Its sacred leaders, Smith, Young and the
=others, were controlling, possessive, domineering and utterly
=disgusting in their sexual perversions. (Any man with 20 or more wives
=is bloody sick.)
Will, I'm open for you to persuade me of these perversions if you
can do it. How perverse is it for a man to marry two, three, five, or
twenty wives?
You're probably aware of how people are trying to pervert the
Victorian idea of marriage in other ways in places like Massachus-
setts. Would you agree with many that the idea of letting two men
join together in marriage is also a sexual perversion, or that letting
a lesbian couple join together is too? Is that the kind of perversion
you're talking about? Is it as perverse for a man to marry two wives
as it is for a man to marry another man?
There was an article in the Dallas Morning News three or four
months ago about Patricia Ireland, former president of the National
Organization of Women, current president of the YWCA, that described a
significantly long period in her life when she was involved sexually
with both her husband and another woman. I saw nothing in that artic-
le nor in subsequent articles that indicated that Ireland was ever
criticized for having such an "open" marriage. Will, would you say
that Ireland's arrangement was as perverse sexually as Smith's and
Young's? If not, why not? Is there something morally superior about
a woman who sleeps with both a man and a woman over a man who sleeps
with more than one woman? Or is it just the number that bothers you?
It's okay for Ireland to have _two_ concurrent sexual relationships,
but you draw the line at five, or ten? Or do you draw the line some-
where else? If so, why?
It was a Victorian ethics system that labeled Joseph Smith's po-
lygamy perverse. Will, if you're going to support that ethics system,
then you've got a lot of explaining to do, because there are a growing
number of people who are growing more and more vocal over time, who
see that ethics system as a major stumbling block between them and
first class citizenship in these United States. Gays, lesbians, and
bisexuals want to be able to adopt children, they want to be able to
visit their significant others in hospitals, they want to be able to
do a lot of things that (at least in many places in the US) are re-
served for married couples. Will, are you going to tell these people
that they need to accept Victorian ethics and leave it at that?
Or maybe you're more progressive than that. Maybe you think Vic-
torian values need to be modified to allow rights for gays and les-
bians. How then do you condemn polygamous triples, or quadruples?
They're nothing more than another sexual minority, just like gays and
lesbians.
---Kevin Simonson
"Maybe it started as a dream, but doesn't everything?"
from _James and the Giant Peach_
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| User: "Jerry Sturdivant" |
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| Title: Re: Skeptical about the LDS Church (WAS: Duwayne Anderson Is Not God) |
07 Dec 2003 10:10:25 AM |
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"Kevin Simonson"
Will, I'm open for you to persuade me of these perversions
if you can do it. How perverse is it for a man to marry
two, three, five, or twenty wives?
It's not the sexual perversion that in question. It's using the laws of
marriage to sanctify the gathering of a harem. Then using the "marriage" law
as a claim.
Would you agree with many that the idea of letting two men
join together in marriage is also a sexual perversion, or
that letting a lesbian couple join together is too?
Not in the least. Marriage is a civil performance with the associated social
and financial ramifications. The couple, whatever their gender, can perform
the sex act irrespective of a 'marriage.' You're mixing pleasure with
legalities.
The Mormon angle is to legally keep the harem together. When he sees his
brother's 14-year old daughter ready to be plucked (note the "Pl") he wants
to make her legally (then sexually) his, irregardless of her wishes.
Jerry Sturdivant
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| User: "Kevin Simonson" |
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| Title: Re: Skeptical about the LDS Church (WAS: Duwayne Anderson Is Not God) |
18 Dec 2003 05:06:57 PM |
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"Jerry Sturdivant" <sturdy@lvcm.com> wrote in message
news:<UhIAb.29458$Bk1.9828@fed1read05>...
=> Will, I'm open for you to persuade me of these perversions
=> if you can do it. How perverse is it for a man to marry
=> two, three, five, or twenty wives?
=
=It's not the sexual perversion that in question. It's using the laws of
=marriage to sanctify the gathering of a harem. Then using the "marriage" law
=as a claim.
There is a word for "homosexual boyfriend" that is more offensive
than "harem," but the purpose of bringing up both terms is the same.
The purpose is to mention a phrase that appeals to our prejudices, and
makes us think we're talking about something that is unnatural or
wrong. I have yet to hear someone explain why harems are wrong in a
world where we're beginning to see homosexuality as an acceptable
lifestyle. They're both just as much in opposition to the Victorian
ethics system; if we're considering the possibility that one should be
legal, then we've lost the justification for making the other one il-
legal.
=> Would you agree with many that the idea of letting two men
=> join together in marriage is also a sexual perversion, or
=> that letting a lesbian couple join together is too?
=
=Not in the least. Marriage is a civil performance with the associated social
=and financial ramifications. The couple, whatever their gender, can perform
=the sex act irrespective of a 'marriage.' You're mixing pleasure with
=legalities.
Well, actually it was Will who connected marriage and "the sex
act" together. He accused anyone who had twenty or so wives as being
guilty of sexual perversions. I merely stated that if that was true
of polygamists, then it was certainly just as true of gay couples who
wanted to get married.
=The Mormon angle is to legally keep the harem together. When he sees his
=brother's 14-year old daughter ready to be plucked (note the "Pl") he wants
=to make her legally (then sexually) his, irregardless of her wishes.
How do you attach the adjective "Mormon" to the process of people
trying to marry fourteen-year-olds against their will? If you had
said "fundamentalist Mormon" I might have let you slide, but I was un-
aware that the main body of the LDS Church had ever forced any four-
teen-year-olds into sexual unions against their will. Maybe you can
enlighten me on this one.
Personally, I think that if the United States, or some of its
component states (like Massachussetts) legalizes gay marriage, then it
has no business keeping bigamy illegal. What reason do we have to be-
lieve that one such sexual minority is more entitled to the societal
recognition of marriage than the other? But in either case the people
entering into the marriage should be legally required to be adults and
they shouldn't be forced into anything.
---Kevin Simonson
"Maybe it started as a dream, but doesn't everything?"
from _James and the Giant Peach_
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| User: "Mike W" |
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| Title: Re: Skeptical about the LDS Church (WAS: Is Not God) |
05 Dec 2003 02:23:30 AM |
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Will wrote:
Kevin Simonson wrote:
I've got a brain that can doubt. _I've also got a conscience_
that gives me a sense of responsibility. I've got three small
children. I owe them something more than a university education
and their share of a universe one generation closer to its
inevitable decay.
My friend, you seem like a nice fellow, so please don't be too
grieved by this. Mormonism is a fraud -- crude, but successful --
originally perpetrated by a liar, scoundrel and sexual predator
of mammoth proportion, Joseph Smith. Its sacred leaders, Smith,
Young and the others, were controlling, possessive, domineering
and utterly disgusting in their sexual perversions. (Any man
with 20 or more wives is bloody sick.) Today, it's most
conservative adherents, who, despite the larger church's rather
laughable condemnation of its own apostles' practices, still
adhere to disgusting polygamous ways, regularly bed girls in
their early teens, and trade girls and women among one another
as if they were farm animals. Its theology would be hysterically
funny -- Protestantism as created by Monty Python -- if so many
people didn't take it seriously. There is nothing redeeming about
the religion. Even Mormon architecture is pathetically ugly.
You want to be a responsible parent. Good. Tell your children that
some people believe in a god or gods, but there is no proof whatever
that any deity exists. Tell them that the best way to live is to
develop your own sense of honor based on what you know to be true and
right, and to adhere to that sense of honor because you have to live
with what you do and be responsible for what you do because there is
no forgiveness from any god. Tell them that this world is all we have
and we should live for it, preserve its beauty, help our fellows when
they need help, and treat with respect and love every living thing.
Finally, tell them that the only things that will ever make them
happy are work and love, and to chose both carefully.
Put your bible and your silly Book of Mormon lies away. Read to your
children from Shakespeare and Mark Twain and John Steinbeck and from
the Oxford Book of English Verse. Read them tales from Randall's
biography of George Washington. Read them the Constitution -- there's
a version that interprets the words for children. Teach them about
Jefferson and Adams and the Revolutionary War. Tell them of evils of
slavery and of the war that ended it. Relate the bloody history of
the 20th century and what occurred because men were blinded by
ideology and greed.
Noble thoughts, wise thoughts. Now... if only they had a place to go and
share these thoughts with all their little friends on Sundays. A place
where families meet and greet and discuss those cosmically complicated
subjects. Would you happen to have a recommendation? Never fear,
organizers freak me out too, on occasion. Every meet and greet needs them
though.
Mormonism, despite your take on it's origins, is the result of America's
Protestant warzone. Where every sect had a stake in saying how it was we
(the uneducated masses) should talk about these things otherwise relegated
to the universities.
Origins in a world, 160 years ago, that knew...
the frontier land,
Indians & Aztecs,
shamans and blood rights,
Carthaginian nightmares, thought to be thousands of years old, merely
hundreds, right there, right then - in America.
Polygamy seems petty in comparison and it's not about that any more anyways,
it's about fairly mundane family life with a side of spirituality. Oh...
and a state to call it's own -- so it's not Deseret -- big deal!
Mike
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| User: "Will" |
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| Title: Re: Skeptical about the LDS Church (WAS: Is Not God) |
06 Dec 2003 01:37:24 AM |
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"Mike W" <Circle_314_And_Square_nospam_@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:<vt0g54dqo0i496@news.supernews.com>...
Will wrote:
Kevin Simonson wrote:
I've got a brain that can doubt. _I've also got a conscience_
that gives me a sense of responsibility. I've got three small
children. I owe them something more than a university education
and their share of a universe one generation closer to its
inevitable decay.
My friend, you seem like a nice fellow, so please don't be too
grieved by this. Mormonism is a fraud -- crude, but successful --
originally perpetrated by a liar, scoundrel and sexual predator
of mammoth proportion, Joseph Smith. Its sacred leaders, Smith,
Young and the others, were controlling, possessive, domineering
and utterly disgusting in their sexual perversions. (Any man
with 20 or more wives is bloody sick.) Today, it's most
conservative adherents, who, despite the larger church's rather
laughable condemnation of its own apostles' practices, still
adhere to disgusting polygamous ways, regularly bed girls in
their early teens, and trade girls and women among one another
as if they were farm animals. Its theology would be hysterically
funny -- Protestantism as created by Monty Python -- if so many
people didn't take it seriously. There is nothing redeeming about
the religion. Even Mormon architecture is pathetically ugly.
You want to be a responsible parent. Good. Tell your children that
some people believe in a god or gods, but there is no proof whatever
that any deity exists. Tell them that the best way to live is to
develop your own sense of honor based on what you know to be true and
right, and to adhere to that sense of honor because you have to live
with what you do and be responsible for what you do because there is
no forgiveness from any god. Tell them that this world is all we have
and we should live for it, preserve its beauty, help our fellows when
they need help, and treat with respect and love every living thing.
Finally, tell them that the only things that will ever make them
happy are work and love, and to chose both carefully.
Put your bible and your silly Book of Mormon lies away. Read to your
children from Shakespeare and Mark Twain and John Steinbeck and from
the Oxford Book of English Verse. Read them tales from Randall's
biography of George Washington. Read them the Constitution -- there's
a version that interprets the words for children. Teach them about
Jefferson and Adams and the Revolutionary War. Tell them of evils of
slavery and of the war that ended it. Relate the bloody history of
the 20th century and what occurred because men were blinded by
ideology and greed.
Noble thoughts, wise thoughts. Now... if only they had a place to go and
share these thoughts with all their little friends on Sundays. A place
where families meet and greet and discuss those cosmically complicated
subjects. Would you happen to have a recommendation? Never fear,
organizers freak me out too, on occasion. Every meet and greet needs them
though.
No, I don't think they need a place to go on Sundays or Thursdays or
anytime to "share these thoughts with all their little friends." I'm
not advocating that anyone proselytize. I'm advocating that people
live honestly and well. I don't think that's entirely possible when
your ethics rely on myths and lies.
Mormonism, despite your take on it's origins,
My "take on its origins?" Where is my "take" distorted? Or do you
really think that Smith's nonsense tale of being visited by the angel
Moroni and presented with the golden book (which then vanished) is
somehow credible? Do you think a man who weds 20 women simulateneously
to be right and fit and healthy of mond and body?
is the result of America's
Protestant warzone. Where every sect had a stake in saying how it was we
(the uneducated masses) should talk about these things otherwise relegated
to the universities.
At least the main Protestant sects had 400 years of refinement,
well-regulated religious institutions, and a tradition that included
some profound thinkers and marvelous artists.
Origins in a world, 160 years ago, that knew...
the frontier land,
Indians & Aztecs,
shamans and blood rights,
Carthaginian nightmares, thought to be thousands of years old, merely
hundreds, right there, right then - in America.
What is all this babble?
Polygamy seems petty in comparison and it's not about that any more anyways,
it's about fairly mundane family life with a side of spirituality. Oh...
and a state to call it's own -- so it's not Deseret -- big deal!
It was a tacky con, a fraud, a lie, and a stupid, transparent lie at
that. It was also steeped in sexual excess, which I think was its real
attraction. The lie was just too damn stupid to be taken seriously if
the attraction of multiple sexual partners wasn't included. The Mormon
system reformed itself of polygamy (somehow without damning its
"saints") in order to survive, but it's still mysognistic, racist,
intrusive and demanding of its members. It even taxes them and forces
their children to years of active mission work. In the outlying
fringes of Mormonism, the evils of polygamy still exist, girls, women
and young men are still abused, and that's not a minor problem.
Mormonism (like most organized religion) is about wealth, property,
power and the manipulation of its membership. The rest is just window
dressing and the lies told to its members, the lifelong indoctrination
and inclucation of absurd stories and bizarre beliefs.
Will
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| User: "Mike W" |
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| Title: Re: Skeptical about the LDS Church (WAS: Is Not God) |
06 Dec 2003 03:30:25 AM |
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Will wrote:
Mike W wrote:
Noble thoughts, wise thoughts. Now... if only they had a place
to go and share these thoughts with all their little friends on
Sundays. A place where families meet and greet and discuss those
cosmically complicated subjects. Would you happen to have a
recommendation? Never fear, organizers freak me out too, on
occasion. Every meet and greet needs them though.
No, I don't think they need a place to go on Sundays or Thursdays or
anytime to "share these thoughts with all their little friends." I'm
not advocating that anyone proselytize. I'm advocating that people
live honestly and well.
That's a tough nut to crack. Community spirit... all that rot. I guess
it's not as important as it once was, we're not an agrarian society, we get
enough of it, community that is, just by living as we do.
I don't think that's entirely possible when your ethics rely on
myths and lies.
Interesting things during my two years on ARM, dissecting reality from an
agnostic or even atheist viewpoint. From the nature of being to the limits
of rationalism... it can get pretty far out.
Mormonism, despite your take on it's origins,
My "take on its origins?" Where is my "take" distorted? Or do you
really think that Smith's nonsense tale of being visited by the angel
Moroni and presented with the golden book (which then vanished) is
somehow credible?
So... it's an extreme tale... I tend to believe in the Big Bang but I
haven't staked my career on it. I haven't put my heart into it. My
community isn't bound by that belief.
Do you think a man who weds 20 women simultaneously
to be right and fit and healthy of mind and body?
I started posting here wondering how ethical it was to be pursuing embryonic
stem cell research. The ethical debates can get fairly horrific and there
aren't any sheiks or ancient prophets who'll give us those answers. You can
see the connection here, no?
is the result of America's Protestant warzone. Where every sect
had a stake in saying how it was we (the uneducated masses) should
talk about these things otherwise relegated to the universities.
At least the main Protestant sects had 400 years of refinement,
well-regulated religious institutions, and a tradition that included
some profound thinkers and marvelous artists.
Yes there was good with the bad. The witch trials, eschewers of all things
English ie modern, Jim Bakker, Jerry Falwell... the beat goes on.
Origins in a world, 160 years ago, that knew...
the frontier land,
Indians & Aztecs,
shamans and blood rights,
Carthaginian nightmares, thought to be thousands of years old,
merely hundreds, right there, right then - in America.
What is all this babble?
I can't imagine living in the Wild West. I can't imagine blood sacrifices
on altars to Quetzalcoatl or whoever. I know how dramatically different my
perspective is living now, in 2003. In hindsight they may know how our
history is influencing us and I imagined I might throw out a few ideas about
how history might have influenced Joseph Smith.
Polygamy seems petty in comparison and it's not about that any
more anyways, it's about fairly mundane family life with a side
of spirituality. Oh... and a state to call it's own -- so it's
not Deseret -- big deal!
It was a tacky con, a fraud, a lie, and a stupid, transparent lie at
that. It was also steeped in sexual excess, which I think was its
real attraction. The lie was just too damn stupid to be taken
seriously if the attraction of multiple sexual partners wasn't
included. The Mormon system reformed itself of polygamy (somehow
without damning its "saints") in order to survive,
Sex sells. My Hotmail account tells me that.
but it's still mysognistic,
It's The Man Show.
racist,
Martin Luther King... but still we're bloody American infidels. Racism!
intrusive and demanding of its members.
Y'know group therapy probably isn't for you :-)
It even taxes them
United Way, then?
and forces their children to years of active mission
work.
Draft the little weasels... teach them the meaning of hard work! Just
kiddin'
In the outlying fringes of Mormonism, the evils of polygamy
still exist, girls, women and young men are still abused, and that's
not a minor problem.
Heh... have you been reading John waxing poetic about American values?
About America in the world and how George Bush is the devil incarnate? I
had to wonder where the creative vitriol might be coming from... John's the
only clue.
Mormonism (like most organized religion) is about wealth,
property, power and the manipulation of its membership. The
rest is just window dressing and the lies told to its members,
the lifelong indoctrination and inclucation of absurd stories
and bizarre beliefs.
We won't see you at the club then? Reminds me of the weeping virgin, the
bleeding statue, Ganesh giving milk... casting my vote at the polls - what a
joke. Like we know?
Mike
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| User: "Satans Slave" |
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| Title: Re: Skeptical about the LDS Church (WAS: Is Not God) |
05 Dec 2003 04:50:24 PM |
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On Fri, 5 Dec 2003 03:23:30 -0500, "Mike W"
<Circle_314_And_Square_nospam_@hotmail.com> wrote:
Mormonism is a fraud
Thank you for doing my work.
Satan's Slave
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| User: "Will" |
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| Title: Re: Skeptical about the LDS Church (WAS: Is Not God) |
06 Dec 2003 01:39:59 AM |
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Satan's Slave <hellbound@now.com> wrote in message news:<is22tvcvct7kf4n08amjbqe6krjks5a6ko@4ax.com>...
On Fri, 5 Dec 2003 03:23:30 -0500, "Mike W"
<Circle_314_And_Square_nospam_@hotmail.com> wrote:
Mormonism is a fraud
Thank you for doing my work.
Satan's Slave
Don't quote out of context, *****. I don't pretend to write
deathless prose, but since you started it,
My friend, you seem like a nice fellow, so please don't be too grieved
by this. Mormonism is a fraud -- crude, but successful -- originally
perpetrated by a liar, scoundrel and sexual predator of mammoth
proportion, Joseph Smith. Its sacred leaders, Smith, Young and the
others, were controlling, possessive, domineering and utterly
disgusting in their sexual perversions. (Any man with 20 or more wives
is bloody sick.) Today, it's most conservative adherents, who, despite
the larger church's rather laughable condemnation of its own apostles'
practices, still adhere to disgusting polygamous ways, regularly bed
girls in their early teens, and trade girls and women among one
another as if they were farm animals. Its theology would be
hysterically funny -- Protestantism as created by Monty Python -- if
so many people didn't take it seriously. There is nothing redeeming
about the religion. Even Mormon architecture is pathetically ugly.
You want to be a responsible parent. Good. Tell your children that
some people believe in a god or gods, but there is no proof whatever
that any deity exists. Tell them that the best way to live is to
develop your own sense of honor based on what you know to be true and
right, and to adhere to that sense of honor because you have to live
with what you do and be responsible for what you do because there is
no forgiveness from any god. Tell them that this world is all we have
and we should live for it, preserve its beauty, help our fellows when
they need help, and treat with respect and love every living thing.
Finally, tell them that the only things that will ever make them happy
are work and love, and to chose both carefully.
Put your bible and your silly Book of Mormon lies away. Read to your
children from Shakespeare and Mark Twain and John Steinbeck and from
the Oxford Book of English Verse. Read them tales from Randall's
biography of George Washington. Read them the Constitution -- there's
a version that interprets the words for children. Teach them about
Jefferson and Adams and the Revolutionary War. Tell them of evils of
slavery and of the war that ended it. Relate the bloody history of the
20th century and what occurred because men were blinded by ideology
and greed.
Will
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| User: "Kate " |
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| Title: Re: Skeptical about the LDS Church (WAS: Is Not God) |
06 Dec 2003 03:12:11 AM |
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On Fri, 5 Dec 2003 03:23:30 -0500, "Mike W"
<Circle_314_And_Square_nospam_@hotmail.com> wrote:
Will wrote:
Kevin Simonson wrote:
I've got a brain that can doubt. _I've also got a conscience_
that gives me a sense of responsibility. I've got three small
children. I owe them something more than a university education
and their share of a universe one generation closer to its
inevitable decay.
My friend, you seem like a nice fellow, so please don't be too
grieved by this. Mormonism is a fraud -- crude, but successful --
originally perpetrated by a liar, scoundrel and sexual predator
of mammoth proportion, Joseph Smith. Its sacred leaders, Smith,
Young and the others, were controlling, possessive, domineering
and utterly disgusting in their sexual perversions. (Any man
with 20 or more wives is bloody sick.) Today, it's most
conservative adherents, who, despite the larger church's rather
laughable condemnation of its own apostles' practices, still
adhere to disgusting polygamous ways, regularly bed girls in
their early teens, and trade girls and women among one another
as if they were farm animals. Its theology would be hysterically
funny -- Protestantism as created by Monty Python -- if so many
people didn't take it seriously. There is nothing redeeming about
the religion. Even Mormon architecture is pathetically ugly.
You want to be a responsible parent. Good. Tell your children that
some people believe in a god or gods, but there is no proof whatever
that any deity exists. Tell them that the best way to live is to
develop your own sense of honor based on what you know to be true and
right, and to adhere to that sense of honor because you have to live
with what you do and be responsible for what you do because there is
no forgiveness from any god. Tell them that this world is all we have
and we should live for it, preserve its beauty, help our fellows when
they need help, and treat with respect and love every living thing.
Finally, tell them that the only things that will ever make them
happy are work and love, and to chose both carefully.
Put your bible and your silly Book of Mormon lies away. Read to your
children from Shakespeare and Mark Twain and John Steinbeck and from
the Oxford Book of English Verse. Read them tales from Randall's
biography of George Washington. Read them the Constitution -- there's
a version that interprets the words for children. Teach them about
Jefferson and Adams and the Revolutionary War. Tell them of evils of
slavery and of the war that ended it. Relate the bloody history of
the 20th century and what occurred because men were blinded by
ideology and greed.
Noble thoughts, wise thoughts. Now... if only they had a place to go and
share these thoughts with all their little friends on Sundays. A place
where families meet and greet and discuss those cosmically complicated
subjects. Would you happen to have a recommendation? Never fear,
organizers freak me out too, on occasion. Every meet and greet needs them
though.
Try a Unitarian Church. No pressure, no rules, lots of discussion
and fellowship.
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| User: "Mike W" |
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| Title: Re: Skeptical about the LDS Church (WAS: Is Not God) |
06 Dec 2003 04:06:24 AM |
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Kate wrote:
Mike W wrote:
Will wrote:
Kevin Simonson wrote:
I've got a brain that can doubt. _I've also got a conscience_
that gives me a sense of responsibility. I've got three small
children. I owe them something more than a university education
and their share of a universe one generation closer to its
inevitable decay.
My friend, you seem like a nice fellow, so please don't be too
grieved by this.
<snip some, "I really don't like the Mormon church">
Put your bible and your silly Book of Mormon lies away.
Read to your children from Shakespeare and Mark Twain and
John Steinbeck and from the Oxford Book of English Verse.
Read them tales from Randall's biography of George Washington.
Read them the Constitution -- there's a version that interprets
the words for children. Teach them about Jefferson and Adams
and the Revolutionary War. Tell them of evils of slavery and
of the war that ended it. Relate the bloody history of the 20th
century and what occurred because men were blinded by ideology
and greed.
Noble thoughts, wise thoughts. Now... if only they had a place
to go and share these thoughts with all their little friends on
Sundays. A place where families meet and greet and discuss those
cosmically complicated subjects. Would you happen to have a
recommendation? Never fear, organizers freak me out too, on
occasion. Every meet and greet needs them though.
Try a Unitarian Church. No pressure, no rules, lots of discussion
and fellowship.
I can see it now. Buddy walks in, "OK. What's the story?". The unanimous
answer, "There isn't one!" Huh? :-)
Truth be told, the Mormon story isn't as concrete as everybody lets on -
it's in flux.
Mike
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