Smearboat Liars Caught In Own Lies, According to Navy Records

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Topic:	Religions > Atheism
User:	"Yang, AthD h.c"
Date:	18 Aug 2004 10:46:07 PM
Object:	Smearboat Liars Caught In Own Lies, According to Navy Records

Newly obtained military records of one of Sen. John F. Kerry's most
vocal critics, who has accused the Democratic presidential candidate
of lying about his wartime record to win medals, contradict his own
version of events.
In newspaper interviews and a best-selling book, Larry Thurlow, who
commanded a Navy Swift boat alongside Kerry in Vietnam, has strongly
disputed Kerry's claim that the Massachusetts Democrat's boat came
under fire during a mission in Viet Cong-controlled territory on March
13, 1969. Kerry won a Bronze Star for his actions that day.
But Thurlow's military records, portions of which were released
yesterday to The Washington Post under the Freedom of Information Act,
contain several references to "enemy small arms and automatic weapons
fire" directed at "all units" of the five-boat flotilla. Thurlow won
his own Bronze Star that day, and the citation praises him for
providing assistance to a damaged Swift boat "despite enemy bullets
flying about him."
....
I never heard a shot," Thurlow said in his affidavit, which was
released by Swift Boats Veterans for Truth. The group claims the
backing of more than 250 Vietnam veterans, including a majority of
Kerry's fellow boat commanders.
A document recommending Thurlow for the Bronze Star noted that all his
actions "took place under constant enemy small arms fire which LTJG
THURLOW completely ignored in providing immediate assistance" to the
disabled boat and its crew. The citation states that all other units
in the flotilla also came under fire.
....
Thurlow and other anti-Kerry veterans have repeatedly alleged that
Kerry was the author of an after-action report that described how his
boat came under enemy fire. Kerry campaign researchers dispute that
assertion, and there is no convincing documentary evidence to settle
the argument. As the senior skipper in the flotilla, Thurlow might
have been expected to write the after-action report for March 13, but
he said that Kerry routinely "duked the system" to present his version
of events.
For much of the episode, Kerry was not in a position to know firsthand
what was happening on Thurlow's boat, as Kerry's boat had sped down
the river after the mine exploded under another boat. He later
returned to provide assistance to the stricken boat.
-----
Yang
a.a. #28
AthD (h.c.) conferred by the regents of the LCL
a.a. pastor #-273.15, the most frigid church of Celcius nee Kelvin
EAC Econometric Forecast and Sorcery Division
Proudly plonked by Lani Girl and Crazyalec
The Bush 'balanced' budget: 1.2 trillion and worsening
The Bush 'economic' policy: -3 million jobs and counting
The Bush Iraq lie: -951 GIs, one friend's co-worker's son and mounting
Having Bush ***** up my country: Worthless
.

User: "Igtheist"
Title: Re: Smearboat Liars Caught In Own Lies, According to Navy Records	20 Aug 2004 09:47:21 PM

"Yang, AthD (h.c)" <eacmole@/*AWOLBUSH*/mail.com> wrote in message news:<a288i0d06ld98e1j8t68q6nrnd08mvbf9r@4ax.com>...

Of course since those records are based on the fraudulent reports made
by Kerry.
I've read all this stuff and the only person proven to have made false
statements was John "Christmas in Cambodia" "Magic Hat" Kerry.
Here's what Thurlow has to say about this BS attack:
http://swift2.he.net/~swift2/article.php?story=20040819100856500
The fellow who Kerry pulled out of the water claimed he underwater
during most of the action. He claims that he dove down several times
to avoid the boats and gunfire. So how could he be a good witness.
Can he see from underwater. Plus he has changed his story. He
originally said there were no boats in the area the first time he came
up for air. But how could that be since one had hit a mine and was
being rescued by three of the other boats while Kerry fled in his.
The only gunfire he heard came from the swift boats laying down
suppression fire. There was one mine explosion and that is it.
None of the boats had any bullet damage.
Furthermore the fellow cannot even get his story straight on which
boat he fell out of while eating his cookie. One time it's Kerry's
then another time it is one of the other boats. Kerrys biographer
even had him falling out of two separate boats in the same paragraph
in Kerrys book.
.

User: "Walter Scott"
Title: Re: Smearboat Liars Caught In Own Lies, According to Navy Records	21 Aug 2004 12:52:31 PM

If you are so well-informed and know for a fact there was no "bullet
damage" to Thurlow's boat, Igtheist, explain this:
http://www.nytimes.com/2004/08/20/politics/campaign/20swift.html?pagewanted=1&hp
Friendly Fire: The Birth of an Anti-Kerry Ad
By KATE ZERNIKE and JIM RUTENBERG
Published: August 20, 2004
[......]
A damage report to Mr. Thurlow's boat shows that it received
three bullet holes, suggesting enemy fire, and later
intelligence reports indicate that one Vietcong was killed in
action and five others wounded, reaffirming the presence of
an enemy. Mr. Thurlow said the boat was hit the day before.
Why didn't Thurlow mention in deposition that his boat had been hit by
enemy fire the day before and that such is why his boat had "bullet
damage?" This is all soooo suspicious. Yet, you fall for it hook, line and
sinker!
In article <ec75c602.0408201847.5dfa8672@posting.google.com> on 20 Aug
2004 19:47:21 -0700,

(Igtheist)
wrote:

There was one mine explosion and that is it. None of the boats had any
bullet damage.

The search for truth requires the courage to accept it.

.

User: "Igtheist"
Title: Re: Smearboat Liars Caught In Own Lies, According to Navy Records	21 Aug 2004 09:04:54 PM

WALTER_SCOTT@A_SPECIFIED_PLACE.NOT (Walter Scott) wrote in message news:<cg824t$s1h$4@ngspool-d02.news.aol.com>...

If you are so well-informed and know for a fact there was no "bullet
damage" to Thurlow's boat, Igtheist, explain this:

http://www.nytimes.com/2004/08/20/politics/campaign/20swift.html?pagewanted=1&hp

Friendly Fire: The Birth of an Anti-Kerry Ad
By KATE ZERNIKE and JIM RUTENBERG
Published: August 20, 2004

[......]

A damage report to Mr. Thurlow's boat shows that it received
three bullet holes, suggesting enemy fire, and later
intelligence reports indicate that one Vietcong was killed in
action and five others wounded, reaffirming the presence of
an enemy. Mr. Thurlow said the boat was hit the day before.

Why didn't Thurlow mention in deposition that his boat had been hit by
enemy fire the day before and that such is why his boat had "bullet
damage?" This is all soooo suspicious. Yet, you fall for it hook, line and
sinker!

In article <ec75c602.0408201847.5dfa8672@posting.google.com> on 20 Aug
2004 19:47:21 -0700,

(Igtheist)
wrote:

There was one mine explosion and that is it. None of the boats had any
bullet damage.

The search for truth requires the courage to accept it.

So do you accept that Kerry has lied? There is clear evidence of
that.
So far we have many self contradictory statements from Kerry, Rassman,
and other boatmates of Kerry. They not only contradict each other
and themselves but also records of their dates of service. They
have retracted several of these statements and changed them a couple
of times.
Yes, Thurlow did say "None of the other swift boats received damage
from enemy gunfire.". Up to this point I had no info on any bullet
holes to the boats. I assumed that statement meant there were no
holes. However now there is the NYT article and a new article in
the WaPo that also mentions the bullet damage here.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A21239-2004Aug21.html.
It claims Thurlow said one bullet hole was from the previous day.
What about the other two? So we now have to see if these articles pan
out. WaPo has already been caught once misquoting and distorting what
the Swift Vets are saying. I read the NYT article today from the
print copy and it mischaraterizes some info. For instance, Thurlow
never said there were not VC there, in fact he said the mine was hand
detonated type. So a dead VC doesn't contradict him.
The two extra bullet holes unaccounted for according to WaPo would
tend to throw suspicion on Thurlows story. The sentence is broad
enough however to be a claim that the boats didn't recieve damage on
that day. I certainly mistook the statement to mean there were no
bullet holes whatsoever.
At this point I am willing to concede that this is the first instance
of any physical information of any kind that points in the direction
that might just be inconsistent with one of the Swift Vets statements.
But perhaps it was my misinterpretation of his statement. He doesn't
say there were no bullet holes as he phrased it. However we have no
idea how often these boats were inspected, etc. We will have to see
what else turns up. Three holes still does not jibe with Kerries
story about the intensity and length of fire. It took 90 minutes to
rescue the boat plus Kerrys story has them recieving enemy fire for
several thousand feet as they left the area. This in a canal 75
yards wide. If I had a machine gun from that distance and for that
length of time I could easily pepper a boat with literally thousands
of holes.
Why aren't any of these mainstream stories titled "Kerrys accounts
incomplete and flawed"? He certainly was not in Cambodia on Xmas
1968, nor was Nixon president at the time. Nobody, not even his
defenders have said any of the boats went to Cambodia. In fact they
all deny it. He's claimed he had two tours of duty in Vietnam yet
only one was. His firs tour on a ship that was near Vietnam for only
one week. These misleading statements go on and on.
Kerry's method of approaching this is suspicious also. Why not just
back up his story by releasing his records. Instead he sues and trys
to get the publisher to stop printing the book "Unfit for Command".
Plus he calls on Bush to stop the ads. That is completely stupid
since Bush cannot coordinate or control the actions of this
independent organization by law.
.

User: "Walter Scott"
Title: Re: Smearboat Liars Caught In Own Lies, According to Navy Records	21 Aug 2004 11:55:37 PM

Your two sentences quoted below, Igtheist, are written like they come
from someone with preconceptions of which they won't let go.
Do I accept that Kerry has lied? Yes; I accept that he has lied. He's
both human and a politician. Humans lie, even if it's meant to spare
someone's feelings. And politicians lie because it's what they must do
to survive in their line of work. Thus, the courts have ruled that, in
context to a political campaign, a politician has no legal obligation
to tell the truth.
Do I believe Kerry has lied about his military service? The answer is
that I don't know. But I'm closer to knowing that certain Swift Boat
Veterans are more likely to have an agenda for politically ruining
Kerry -- to make him pay for his testimony before Congress over 30
years ago and to help their political and/or philosophical ally, the
President, stay in office. Of course, there's the possibility that
they are right -- that Kerry manufactured his accomplishments in
Vietnam and spent the decades which followed solidifying a falsified
record. Someone who wracked up medals the way Kerry did seems a
little too good to be true. On the other hand, the military is replete
with heroes wearing a chest full of medals -- some received for acts
occurring in a brief space of time. So I can't dismiss the possibility
that Kerry either received his awards legitimately or didn't.
In this realm, where I have a problem with Kerry's veracity lies
mostly in what he said decades ago about throwing his medals "over the
wall" versus what he has said more recently and just this year. For
me, his attempt to reconcile then versus now didn't pass the laugh
test. But I don't see evidence of or possibilities for him lying as to
how he received his medals more than I see the possibility of an
agenda of retribution at almost any cost or a political agenda
massaged by political operatives close to the President, his family
and his chief political adviser -- operatives who have associated with
certain Swift Boat Veterans.
I see hundreds of veterans lining up to oppose Kerry, not because they
personally witnessed Kerry do something wrong but because they'd been
told by others he did something wrong and that's good enough. Well, in
my book, that's NOT good enough! You accuse based on what you've
experienced and witnessed yourself -- especially when the ultimate
result of reaching your goal, should you be successful, will be to
assassinate someone else's character. And I've never bought into the
idea that, because Kerry may have been perceived by some to have
betrayed and trashed all serving in the military by way of his
anti-war activism, he deserved to be trashed as well, as in "the ends
justify the means," without limit on whatever the means had to be. In
other words: I don't believe in the equation: "two wrongs make a
right."
Now, I'm well aware of the fact that, for those who value a long
career in politics, it's not a good idea to assume you can protect a
good reputation or that you won't be the target of some mud.
Unfortunately, all is considered fair in pursuit of love, war *AND*
politics -- no ethics need be applied! But that's not what a
politician would tell you while he or she is posturing. So, I'm not
naive about either Bush or Kerry. Bush is slinging the mud right now.
Kerry was slinging it (and probably still is through surrogates)
regarding Bush's military service. So no one should cry any tears or
get "exercised" over an injustice done to Kerry on the Swift Boat
controversy or Bush on the AWOL issue. It's just par-for-the-course
politics. In fact, I'm sure that, if Bush still drank, and he and
Kerry drank at the same bar, they'd both toast each other's success
late into the night then get up the next morning to demonize each
other in the news media! The greatest problem is that too many people
take far too seriously the SHOW that they'll put on for public
consumption.
But the Swift Boat Veterans for Truth are not politicians. I hold them
to a higher standard -- even more so in that they are retired
military. If they're out to smear and to assassinate character in
order to take revenge for a perceived insult delivered over 30 years
ago, and to do so without any qualms, then shame on them! If they are
being used as unknowing pawns by President Bush's surrogates, then
they are victims. If they are willing co-conspirators with co-agendas,
then I think they've betrayed their honor as retired military and
completely abandoned any decent ethics they may have possessed in the
past. If the Swift Boat Veterans for TRUTH are indeed telling the
truth and are out to see that the truth is dispensed, then I think
they've botched their mission terribly.....
Walter Scott
In article <ec75c602.0408211804.734d8583@posting.google.com> on 21 Aug
2004 19:04:54 -0700,

(Igtheist)
wrote:

So do you accept that Kerry has lied? There is clear evidence of
that.

The search for truth requires the courage to accept it.

.

User: "Igtheist"
Title: Re: Smearboat Liars Caught In Own Lies, According to Navy Records	22 Aug 2004 10:29:21 PM

WALTER_SCOTT@A_SPECIFIED_PLACE.NOT (Walter Scott) wrote in message news:<cg9906$kat$1@ngspool-d02.news.aol.com>...

The search for truth requires the courage to accept it.

Good then start here:
http://fray.slate.msn.com/?id=3936&m=11840356
.

User: "Enkidu"
Title: Re: Smearboat Liars Caught In Own Lies, According to Navy Records	22 Aug 2004 10:39:47 PM

(Igtheist) wrote in
news:ec75c602.0408221929.7680c60@posting.google.com:

http://fray.slate.msn.com/?id=3936&m=11840356

So the best you can come up with is one post on Slate's reader's forum
where one person posted selected portions of a single article?
What a loser. Don't you ever get tired of shilling for crooks?
--
Enkidu aa 2165
Now playing: Indigo Girls - Fill It Up Again
That wall, embodied in the First Amendment, is perhaps
America's most important contribution to political progress
on this planet.
Lowell Weicker
Republican Senator 1971-1989
.

User: "CJT"
Title: Re: Smearboat Liars Caught In Own Lies, According to Navy Records	20 Aug 2004 10:09:21 PM

Igtheist wrote:

"Yang, AthD (h.c)" <eacmole@/*AWOLBUSH*/mail.com> wrote in message news:<a288i0d06ld98e1j8t68q6nrnd08mvbf9r@4ax.com>...

Of course since those records are based on the fraudulent reports made
by Kerry.

According to Thurlow, who is the guy whose integrity is in question.

I've read all this stuff and the only person proven to have made false
statements was John "Christmas in Cambodia" "Magic Hat" Kerry.

Here's what Thurlow has to say about this BS attack:
http://swift2.he.net/~swift2/article.php?story=20040819100856500

The fellow who Kerry pulled out of the water claimed he underwater
during most of the action. He claims that he dove down several times
to avoid the boats and gunfire. So how could he be a good witness.
Can he see from underwater. Plus he has changed his story. He
originally said there were no boats in the area the first time he came
up for air. But how could that be since one had hit a mine and was
being rescued by three of the other boats while Kerry fled in his.
The only gunfire he heard came from the swift boats laying down
suppression fire.

.... which wouldn't be necessary if all was calm.
There was one mine explosion and that is it.

None of the boats had any bullet damage.

I don't think that's been established with any certainty.

Furthermore the fellow cannot even get his story straight on which
boat he fell out of while eating his cookie. One time it's Kerry's
then another time it is one of the other boats. Kerrys biographer
even had him falling out of two separate boats in the same paragraph
in Kerrys book.

That's the first I've heard of THAT claim -- how about some specifics?
(e.g. page numbers and quotes)
--
The e-mail address in our reply-to line is reversed in an attempt to
minimize spam. Our true address is of the form che...@prodigy.net.
.

User: "Igtheist"
Title: Re: Smearboat Liars Caught In Own Lies, According to Navy Records	21 Aug 2004 02:06:53 PM

CJT <abujlehc@prodigy.net> wrote in message news:<4126BCDF.3020401@prodigy.net>...

Igtheist wrote:

"Yang, AthD (h.c)" <eacmole@/*AWOLBUSH*/mail.com> wrote in message news:<a288i0d06ld98e1j8t68q6nrnd08mvbf9r@4ax.com>...

Of course since those records are based on the fraudulent reports made
by Kerry.

According to Thurlow, who is the guy whose integrity is in question.

Thurlow has plenty of other people backing him up on this who were
there. Their stories are consistent with each other and the damage
report.
Kerry has provided many contradicting reports on the incident. In
some his stories his PCF-94 boat leaves the area and returns. In
others he goes directly to assist PCF-3 which was hit by the mine.
PCF-3 was right near the shore because the five boats were navagating
around either side of a fishing wier. The damage report shows no
bullet holes. BTW, Kerry released the damage report of PCF-3 and
claimed it was for PCF-94 which was his boat. The report indicates a
totally disabled boat. Yet Kerries boat was the one used to tow PCF-3
to shore.
Thurlow's story seems perfectly reasonable to me. He jumped on a
burning ship, PCF-3, to save it. He recieves a bronze star much
later for the incident and assumes that it was for the bravery of
jumping onto a burning ship. He later finds out about the
inaccuracies in the report which he did not submit. He didn't know
about it and didn't put in for it.
The WaPo and Times articles do not indicate the author of the report
of enemy fire that they claim discredits Thurlow. Thurlow says it
was not him but Kerry. So why didn't they say? Prior to this story
it was already claimed by every source I saw that Kerry had put in the
reports that lead to his medals. So this isn't a new fabrication by
Thurlow. In fact Kerrys commander at the time had already said that
he had just assumed Kerry wasn't lying about the reports. Very
simple way to clear all this up is to have Kerry sign the papers to
release all his war records. He won't do it.
Even Rassman contradicts Kerrys story:
"Naval documents said that Kerry ''received shrapnel wounds in left
buttocks and contusions on right forearm when a mine detonated close
to PCF 94 while engaged in operations on river. Condition and
prognosis excellent. Result of hostile action."
Rassmann, reached by telephone yesterday, said he has never had any
question that Kerry deserved the Purple Heart. He said there were two
separate events: One was earlier in the day, when he and Kerry blew up
a rice cache, and the explosion caused some of the rice to hit Kerry,
and perhaps some weapon fragments as well. The second involved a mine
explosion as Kerry and Rassmann were on patrol. The explosion,
Rassmann said, knocked him overboard and threw Kerry against the pilot
house, injuring his arm.
Rassmann said that he has always believed that Kerry got the third
Purple Heart solely for the injury to his arm as a result of the
explosion in the water.
''If he got fragments in the buttocks due to the mine, that is new
information to me," Rassmann said.
''I would say there is confusion. Maybe they did lump it together. It
was my understanding he got it for the wound being thrown across the
pilot house."
"

... which wouldn't be necessary if all was calm.

Wrong. A single mine went off. They expected an attack and started
firing into the jungle. I took ambush training and what you are
suppose to do is immediately lay down suppression fire even if you
cannot see the enemy. Everyone else there says they layed down
suppression fire and when it was apparent they were not being shot at
they stopped. No bullet hole were reported in any of the five
boats. The were in a section that was only 75 yards across. At 75
yards you can shoot a bird out of a tree with a scope and easily hit a
man with open sights. Yet apparently the enemy couldn't even hit the
side of a boat.
I don't have a problem with Kerry fleeing the scene either. That is
also an action you are suppose to take during an ambush. It's called
removing yourself from the kill zone.
I also do not think Kerry is a coward. I just think he is a liar who
milked the system of trust to get many medals he didn't deserve. His
worst offense was when he got back to the US and lied about the war in
front of congress.

There was one mine explosion and that is it.

None of the boats had any bullet damage.

I don't think that's been established with any certainty.

The damage report has no bullet holes on PCF-3. Go find it.
None of the newspapers running interference for Kerry have reported of
any bullet holes. Instead of dealing with the facts they are building
charts about who knew who that happened to work with who that married
whoever who happens to be a republican and gave money to the Swift
Vets organization. Funny, I don't see them doing that for
moveon.org.

That's the first I've heard of THAT claim -- how about some specifics?
(e.g. page numbers and quotes)

Look the reason why you don't know about these things is there is a
total blackout in the mainstream media. You have to go to the blogs
which have plenty of links to supporting evidence. Try
captainsquartersblog.com, instapundit.com, and then follow to the
other blogs.
Doug Brinkley has Rassman being blown off BOTH PCF-3 and PCF-94. All
in one paragraph!
http://www.thehistorynet.com/ah/blkerryinvietnam/index2.html
'...a mine exploded directly beneath Lieutenant James Rassman's PCF-3
near Kerry's port side. Rassman's Swift lifted about two feet up out
of the water, engulfed in mud and spray, then settled, rocking so hard
from side to side that the boat started zigzagging from the banks to
the middle of the river. Everybody on board PCF-3 was wounded. "At the
same moment, we came under a hail of small-arms fire from both banks,"
Kerry recorded in his journal. "I turned the boat into the fire on the
left with the intention of trying to get the troops ashore on the
outskirts of the ambush, but Sandusky, who was driving the boat and
who had his eyes glued on the crippled 3 boat, pointed out to me how
badly hit they had been. We veered back toward her then and tried to
provide cover from the engaged side. Suddenly another explosion went
off right beside us, and the concussion threw me violently against the
bulkhead on the door, and I smashed my arm. At the same instant, Jim
Rassman was blown overboard, although nobody knew it. "
.

User: "Walter Scott"
Title: Re: Smearboat Liars Caught In Own Lies, According to Navy Records	21 Aug 2004 05:46:21 PM

If you're going to claim that Thurlow's pure as the driven snow and
that the "damage report" on Thurlow's boat is consistent with
Thurlow's story, Igtheist, let's have supporting cites and quotes --
not from Thurlow, Kerry or surrogates, but from the official record.
Let's see the text of that damage report and evidence as to who
authored it. Unless you have such evidence, it's not for you to
properly assert as fact that any story is or isn't consistent with the
facts.
In article <ec75c602.0408211106.d58930d@posting.google.com> on 21 Aug
2004 12:06:53 -0700,

(Igtheist)
wrote:

Of course since those records are based on the fraudulent reports made
by Kerry.

According to Thurlow, who is the guy whose integrity is in question.

Thurlow has plenty of other people backing him up on this who were
there. Their stories are consistent with each other and the damage
report.

The search for truth requires the courage to accept it.

.

User: "Igtheist"
Title: Re: Smearboat Liars Caught In Own Lies, According to Navy Records	04 Sep 2004 12:04:29 PM

WALTER_SCOTT@A_SPECIFIED_PLACE.NOT (Walter Scott) wrote in message news:<cg8jbr$97b$1@ngspool-d02.news.aol.com>...

If you're going to claim that Thurlow's pure as the driven snow and
that the "damage report" on Thurlow's boat is consistent with
Thurlow's story, Igtheist, let's have supporting cites and quotes --
not from Thurlow, Kerry or surrogates, but from the official record.
Let's see the text of that damage report and evidence as to who
authored it. Unless you have such evidence, it's not for you to
properly assert as fact that any story is or isn't consistent with the
facts.

In article <ec75c602.0408211106.d58930d@posting.google.com> on 21 Aug
2004 12:06:53 -0700,

(Igtheist)
wrote:

Of course since those records are based on the fraudulent reports made
by Kerry.

According to Thurlow, who is the guy whose integrity is in question.

Thurlow has plenty of other people backing him up on this who were
there. Their stories are consistent with each other and the damage
report.

The search for truth requires the courage to accept it.

No the truth requires the courage to find it.
The three bullet holes to Thurlow's boat were to the gun turret and
were sustained the previous day, March 12th. Thurlows gunner in that
gun turret was wounded the prior day so that is consistent.
That same day, the 12th, three windows on two other boats windows were
shot out (a common occurance), but that was on the 12th also. Page
page 304 of Kerry's book.
Another thing that is not clear is whether "Thurlow's boat" refers to
one of the boats at the mine incident. There are reports that
"Thurlow's boat" was in for repairs and that he was using a different
boat at the mine incident that day. Thurlow was not with the other
boats earlier in the day when they dropped the Ruff Puffs at the
village and Kerry blew his own ***** full of rice. He met them at the
village afterwards and went down stream with them when they came
across the fishing net where the mine incident happend. The net was
erected after Thurlows boat went upstream to the village.
PCF's 3, 51, 43, 93 and 94 are in the daily report (it's not just
about the mine incident). When the NYT refers to "Thurlow's boat"
with the three bullet holes are they referring to one of those five or
a different boat. I haven't figured that out yet.
There wasn't a any other damage on the March 13 other than the mine
damage to PCF-3 and the collision damage to Kerry's boat PCF-94.
PCF-94 damage came from hitting something in the water that damaged
his props. Props are made of very strong metal and an explosion
strong enough to bend them would have tore right through a the thin
aluminum hull. So it was not an explosion that damaged Kerry's boat.
All other damage to Kerrys boat was consistent with running afoul of
some underwater object like a log or sandbar. Like the fact that the
alternate steering mechanism didn't work.
The official report at the time does not mention a second mine.
http://beldar.blogs.com/beldarblog/2004/08/mcq_finds_where.html
BTW: The NYT confused the damage from the previous day with the action
on the morning of the March 13. In the morning they had transported
some "Ruff n' Puffs" ground forces to attack a village on land. They
were the ones that were under fire in the morning.
That same morning Kerry and Rassman had sabatoged some food supplies.
Kerry dropped a grenade in a rice pile and hadn't got away in time.
He got rice and minor shrapnel in the butt. Later Kerry reported for
his medal this buttocks wound as having coming from a mine that
exploded under his boat. This clearly didn't happen. Rassman said
it was from the rice.
No mine exploded under Kerrys boat, it's not in the report on page 8
here:
http://www.johnkerry.com/pdf/jkmilservice/Command_History_chronology.pdf
"March 13, 1969: PCF's 3, 51, 43, 93 and 94 with MSF RF/PF troops
conducted SEA LORDS operations in Bay Hop river and Dong Cong canal. A
mine detonated under PCF 3 and units were taken under small arms fire
several times during the operation. Friendly casualties were 8 USN WIA
and 1 MSF KIA. Units destroyed 30 sampans and 5 structures and
captured 16 booby trap grenades. Later intelligence reports indicated
1 VC KIA and 5 VC WIA."
The operation refers to the entire day and not just the mine incident.
The small arms fire and VC KIA/WIA were from the village.
You will also note that if you look at page 7 it has been chopped off.
The March 12 report is totally missing. As explained here:
http://annsbox.com/logger/archive/archi.cgi?read=2961
Thurlows boat took a casualty on March 12 so you'd think it would be
in the highlights. Why do you suppose Kerry left this off his web
site?
Well I printed the pages out and they have been scanned in sideways
for the pdf file. Many of the pages have incomplete sentences at the
end or even chopped text where you can only see half the letters.
These are again not the full records.
When is Kerry going to provide the whole truth. Sign the 180 so all
records can be released.
" The article in the New York Times which refers to three bullet holes
in the Thurlow boat is extremely dishonest. It is dishonest because
we spoke to the reporter before the article came out. The three
bullet holes in the Thurlow boat in the gun top came the day before on
March 12th. How do we know that? We know that first because Thurlow
and the members of the boat say that. Second, we know it because the
gunner sitting in that turret was wounded the day before and there is
a casualty report on him. So, we know that those bullet holes
occurred on March 12th not on March 13th. With the exception of those
three bullet holes, there is not a single bullet hole on any boat and
there is not a single person wounded by a bullet. These boats sat
there for an hour and a half saving the 3 boat in a creek that was
about 75 yards wide. It is just inconceivable there could have been
a high volume of firepower and nobody hit."
That was from this O'Neill interview:
http://davidlimbaugh.com/oneill02.htm
Apparently the NYT felt it only needs to provide Kerrys side of the
story. They spent a heck of a lot of time on a chart of political
connections. Turns out that Kerry's political campaign has even more
connections with the 527s then Bush. Several people working on his
campaign have switched from working for groups like moveon.org, and
vice versa. Many of his lawyers are also representing 527s. The
one lawyer Bush had that had such a conflict of interest has resigned.
Now the around seven that Kerry has with conflicts of interest should
resign.
The three bullet holes are explained in a consistent manner. There
is no other inconsistencies in the SBVT stories that I am aware of.
Do you have any others?
.

User: "Igtheist"
Title: Re: Smearboat Liars Caught In Own Lies, According to Navy Records	05 Sep 2004 10:37:05 AM

"Shannon Jacobs" <shanen@my-deja.com> wrote in message news:<413a3e4a$0$6166$44c9b20d@news3.asahi-net.or.jp>...

Same spinning lies being repeated from an earlier thread, so seems worth
collecting.

Rules of Bushevik troll club:

Rules of Shannon Jacobs nut club:

1. Don't talk about Bushevik troll club.

.... otherwise you might learn something.

2. DO NOT talk about Bushevik troll club.

.... otherwise you might learn something.

3. No spelling checks.

.... because Shannon thinks typos indicate incorrect argumentation.

4. Each thread will go on as long as it has to.

.... but Shannon wishes to suppress any new info so this is a "no,no".

5. Attack people, evade real issues.

.... meaning that we should stick to liberal talking points, any
deviation is by definition an attack.

6. Use untraceable pseudonyms.

.... so nuts like Shannon cannot show up at your house and protest,
stalk you, or otherwise harrass you.

7. Lie whenever convenient.

... because everything is a lie Shannon doesn't like.

8. Use untraceable, bogus, slanted, or no citations.

... so cut citations and lie about it after the fact. Also remember to
be too stupid to do a simple web search or look at other posts by the
same author for the citations.

9. Repeat the lies, especially the biggest ones.

.... because no one likes lies and call everything a lie you don't like
will convince people.

10. ...

.... Never discuss the issues based on fact. Just change the title and
stuff it in another thread. Repeatedly, somewhere above 1753 times.
That will teach them.

Igtheist <igtheist_N_O_S_P_A_M@hotmail.com> wrote:
<snip>

<cut-and-paste tripe snip>

Liar, prove it was cut-and-paste.

Bye-bye troll cross-posts!

Says the man who just crossposted to three groups and doesn't discuss
anything. Guess what I can make this post magically appear again
even with your one group filter.

Do you agree that democracy is good and depends on serious discussion
of the issues?

Yes, but most liberals don't. Kerry's campaign slogan should be:
"Just, Shut Up!" - http://www.nypost.com/postopinion/opedcolumnists/28015.htm

Send it to "The vile spewers of mindless blather thread".

Which indicates that when you cannot address the issues then you can
certainly ignore them.
.

User: ""
Title: Re: Smearboat Liars Caught In Own Lies, According to Navy Records	04 Sep 2004 12:16:00 PM

On 4 Sep 2004 10:04:29 -0700,

(Igtheist) wrote:

Later Kerry reported for
his medal this buttocks wound as having coming from a mine that
exploded under his boat.

Nope.
_______
Vote Bush/Voldemort 2004!
.

User: ""
Title: Re: Smearboat Liars Caught In Own Lies, According to Navy Records	04 Sep 2004 12:15:28 PM

On 4 Sep 2004 10:04:29 -0700,

(Igtheist) wrote:

The official report at the time does not mention a second mine.

http://beldar.blogs.com/beldarblog/2004/08/mcq_finds_where.html

Fog of war. Kerry thought it was amine. Two others on his crew say
they thing it was a missile or RPG because they think a mine would
have done more damage.
You can't change that there was another large explosion.
You chose to ignore too much to make your "case".
_______
Vote Bush/Voldemort 2004!
.

User: ""
Title: Re: Smearboat Liars Caught In Own Lies, According to Navy Records	04 Sep 2004 12:13:51 PM

On 4 Sep 2004 10:04:29 -0700,

(Igtheist) wrote:

The three bullet holes to Thurlow's boat were to the gun turret and
were sustained the previous day, March 12th. Thurlows gunner in that
gun turret was wounded the prior day so that is consistent.

Consistent is not proof. The same wounded gunner has said they were
under fire that second day, and got a bronze medal for laying down
suppressing fire to cover Thurlow's move to the damaged PCF.
You choose to ignore the gunner, the commendations and the rest of the
witnesses, including Rassman who says he saw the bullets hitting the
water around him while he swam.
_______
Vote Bush/Voldemort 2004!
.

User: "Igtheist"
Title: Re: Smearboat Liars Caught In Own Lies, According to Navy Records	25 Aug 2004 08:59:05 PM

WALTER_SCOTT@A_SPECIFIED_PLACE.NOT (Walter Scott) wrote in message news:<cg8jbr$97b$1@ngspool-d02.news.aol.com>...

Here's some more evidence for you:
http://qando.net/archives/003894.htm
Appears NYT didn't do all the homework it needed to before making it's
claims. They should be more responsible like the bloggers and cite
their sources.
.

User: ""
Title: Re: Smearboat Liars Caught In Own Lies, According to Navy Records	25 Aug 2004 09:20:22 PM

On 25 Aug 2004 18:59:05 -0700,

(Igtheist) wrote:

WALTER_SCOTT@A_SPECIFIED_PLACE.NOT (Walter Scott) wrote in message news:<cg8jbr$97b$1@ngspool-d02.news.aol.com>...

It's ***** speculation that shows the writer of the blog hasn't
read the accounts of the day.
_______
Vote Bush/Voldemort 2004!
.

User: "Igtheist"
Title: Re: Smearboat Liars Caught In Own Lies, According to Navy Records	22 Aug 2004 10:53:51 PM

WALTER_SCOTT@A_SPECIFIED_PLACE.NOT (Walter Scott) wrote in message news:<cg8jbr$97b$1@ngspool-d02.news.aol.com>...

They are consistent with the facts as presented so far. Kerry isn't
releasing his records. Nor are the Swift Vets mostly being attacked
with facts. The few facts I've seen them attacked with have been
ambiguous. Kerry and his friends were there why aren't they
producing these facts? Perhaps they have spent so much time lying
they don't know how to deal with facts?
.

User: "Winning With Bush"
Title: Re: Smearboat Liars Caught In Own Lies, According to Navy Records	23 Aug 2004 12:27:29 AM

"Igtheist" <igtheist_N_O_S_P_A_M@hotmail.com> wrote

They are consistent with the facts as presented so far.

Well, only if you want to pretend that they don't fly in the
face of the actual records...

Kerry isn't releasing his records.

Bush is four years overdue and you don't seem to have any
problems with that.

Nor are the Swift Vets mostly being attacked with facts.

Unless you count their own records -- and, in many cases,
their own public statements -- as "facts."
One of them, as it turns out, actually received a bronze star
for the combat action he now says Kerry made up. What's
really strange about this is that he still insist that all the
combat he described that day did take place. It simply magically
vanished in a small area roughly equal in size to John Kerry.

The few facts I've seen them attacked with have been
ambiguous.

Yeah, "You claim there was no combat that day, yet you received
a bronze star for your bravery in combat that day" is extremely
ambiguous.

Kerry and his friends were there why aren't they producing
these facts?

The facts have never been absent. They've been part of the military
record for more than 3 decades now.
.

User: "Igtheist"
Title: Re: Smearboat Liars Caught In Own Lies, According to Navy Records	23 Aug 2004 09:21:07 PM

"Winning With Bush" <gymraven@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:<BoednZ8bhad047TcRVn-tQ@comcast.com>...

"Igtheist" <igtheist_N_O_S_P_A_M@hotmail.com> wrote

They are consistent with the facts as presented so far.

Well, only if you want to pretend that they don't fly in the
face of the actual records...

Specific examples?

Kerry isn't releasing his records.

Bush is four years overdue and you don't seem to have any
problems with that.

What records hasn't he released? As far as I know he signed the forms
for release of his records.

Nor are the Swift Vets mostly being attacked with facts.

Unless you count their own records -- and, in many cases,
their own public statements -- as "facts."

Specific examples?

One of them, as it turns out, actually received a bronze star
for the combat action he now says Kerry made up. What's
really strange about this is that he still insist that all the
combat he described that day did take place. It simply magically
vanished in a small area roughly equal in size to John Kerry.

That was explained already. Thurlow didn't recieve it till after he
left Vietnam and thought it was for jumping on a burning ship to save
it. You are being too general again. The specific claim is that
there was one mine explosion triggered from shore and there was no
enemy fire. By the time Kerry came back to pull a Rassman into his
boat it was clear there was no enemy fire. There were several people
who were in the water and retrieved by people on other boats before
Kerry came back. Did they all get bronze stars too? I only know
about Thurlows and Kerrys. I guess that was because Kerry had a
bruise on his arm and the rice & shrapnel in the buttocks that Rassman
has claimed Kerry recieved earlier in the day from his own grenade.
Kerrys action report said the ***** wound was shrapnel from a mine
explosion under his own boat. That just didn't happen. In fact his
boat was fine and used to tow the crippled boat to shore.
I also just heard that Thurlows actual boat had been put in for
service that day because of prior action. That was why Thrulow was
not with Kerry when he blasted himself with his own grenade. Thurlow
joined them in another boat at the village before all five returned.
Again this part is not verified but leads to more questions about the
three bullet holes in "Thurlows" boat. Which boat? The one that
wasn't there or the one he used that day?

The few facts I've seen them attacked with have been
ambiguous.

Yeah, "You claim there was no combat that day, yet you received
a bronze star for your bravery in combat that day" is extremely
ambiguous.

You have mischaracterized what they are claiming.

Kerry and his friends were there why aren't they producing
these facts?

The facts have never been absent. They've been part of the military
record for more than 3 decades now.

Again generalities. Kerry should just sign the documents neccesary
to release the records and clear this up.
.

User: "z"
Title: Re: Smearboat Liars Caught In Own Lies, According to Navy Records	25 Aug 2004 12:47:50 AM

(Igtheist) wrote in message news:<ec75c602.0408231821.177c1f98@posting.google.com>...

"Winning With Bush" <gymraven@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:<BoednZ8bhad047TcRVn-tQ@comcast.com>...

"Igtheist" <

> wrote

They are consistent with the facts as presented so far.

Well, only if you want to pretend that they don't fly in the
face of the actual records...

Specific examples?

Kerry isn't releasing his records.

Bush is four years overdue and you don't seem to have any
problems with that.

What records hasn't he released?

That bootleg of his duet with Yoko Ono at Woodstock.
.

User: "Igtheist"
Title: Re: Smearboat Liars Caught In Own Lies, According to Navy Records	04 Sep 2004 01:36:24 PM

(Igtheist) wrote in message news:<ec75c602.0408231821.177c1f98@posting.google.com>...

I also just heard that Thurlows actual boat had been put in for
service that day because of prior action. That was why Thrulow was
not with Kerry when he blasted himself with his own grenade. Thurlow
joined them in another boat at the village before all five returned.
Again this part is not verified but leads to more questions about the
three bullet holes in "Thurlows" boat. Which boat? The one that
wasn't there or the one he used that day?

The three bullet holes were from the prior day when the turret gunner
got wounded. They were in the turret of Thurlow's boat.
I tried to verify the story about Thurlows boat being in service. I
believe I hear this from someone at lunch and I had not verified her
claim. I cannot find anything on this anywhere. She claimed
Thurlow was not there and was having the boat repaired in the morning.
Then Thurlow drove a different boat up to the village. So he was
at the village at one point according to her.
However, I just can't back up her claim.
I did find a quote in interview with John O'Neill that would put doubt
to the repair story. But the repair story has not been one that the
SBVT has been claiming. So I believe the repair story to be
extremely questionable at this point.
If anyone can find a quote where Thurlow or any of the SBVFT claim
that Thurlow was having his boat repaired the morning of March 13th
and could not make it to the village before Kerry blew his own *****
full of rice then we will have a true inconcistancy.
Thurlow is claiming to be at the village with Kerry and Rassman but he
just did not witness the brown rice grenade incident in which Kerry
Blasted himself. He only heard the grenade blast, according to
O'Neill.
The O'Neill quote is:
"First of all, Thurlow heard the grenade and was aware of the
incident."
From this paragraph at the site: http://davidlimbaugh.com/oneill02.htm
John O'Neill: No. I gave you the explanation of what Kerry said.
Kerry said there were five boats. A mine went off, they all fled,
Rassmann fell off, Kerry came back badly wounded and so on. Here is
what actually happened. A mine went off � first of all, in the
morning, before any of the incident occurred, Kerry threw a grenade
into a sampan full of rice and he got a tiny amount of rice and
shrapnel in his fanny. How do I know this? First of all, Thurlow
heard the grenade and was aware of the incident. He was ashore with
Kerry that morning of March 13. Second, I go to Kerry's own book Tour
of Duty, pages 313-317, where he relates from his journal "I got a
small piece of grenade in my ***** from the rice bin explosion" and then
on page 317, the doctor removed the rice and shrapnel. So, I know
from Kerry's own mouth that he did this. Finally, I go to the Kranish
book and in the Kranish book, I think it is page 105, but people could
look, that at Michael Kranish's autobiography of Kerry (John F. Kerry:
The Complete Biography by the Boston Globe Reporters Who Know Him
Best). Kranish quotes Rassmann as seeing the rice bin explosion where
Kerry threw his grenade in and ended up with a small amount of rice in
his fanny.
.

User: "Igtheist"
Title: Re: Smearboat Liars Caught In Own Lies, According to Navy Records	21 Aug 2004 03:21:17 PM

CJT <abujlehc@prodigy.net> wrote in message news:<4126BCDF.3020401@prodigy.net>...

That's the first I've heard of THAT claim -- how about some specifics?
(e.g. page numbers and quotes)

Here's another claim you probably haven't heard of because of the
media blackout. Turns out that Kerry was taking credit for an
incident that occurred on PCF-94 before he was captain. Also one of
his witnesses was not at Kerrys silver star incident. You know,
David Alston, the vet who went on stage with Kerry. Apparently they
both were lying.
http://www.captainsquartersblog.com/mt/archives/002295.php#comments
Also apparently Alston only served at most one to two weeks with
Kerry. Also Rassman (or Rassmann) was not even a crew member but
only served a day or two at most with Kerry.
Another thing that gets me is all these people complaining (falsely)
that O'Neill is a republican, etc. Yet they don't seem to care that
both Alston and Rassman are working directly for Kerrys campaign
unlike the Swift Vets organizers who are not working for Bushes.
The most disturbing thing about Kerry is that he worked against our
solders, lied about them, while he was a navy officier in the
reserves, during a time that our guys were still in vietnam fighting.
He even met with representatives of the North Vietnamese.
.

User: "Enkidu"
Title: Re: Smearboat Liars Caught In Own Lies, According to Navy Records	21 Aug 2004 04:08:30 PM

(Igtheist) wrote in
news:ec75c602.0408211221.17f2a9a5@posting.google.com:

CJT <abujlehc@prodigy.net> wrote in message
news:<4126BCDF.3020401@prodigy.net>...

That's the first I've heard of THAT claim -- how about some
specifics? (e.g. page numbers and quotes)

The best source you can cite is a blog? *****, that's weak, even for you!

Also apparently Alston only served at most one to two weeks with
Kerry. Also Rassman (or Rassmann) was not even a crew member but
only served a day or two at most with Kerry.

Rassmann was pulled from the water by Kerry. He says so. Kerry says so.
The citation says so. Navy records say so. William Rood, a swift boat
captain also present during the incident, says so.
http://quote.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=10000087
&sid=aSyBQsvG2a8I&refer=top_world_news

Another thing that gets me is all these people complaining (falsely)
that O'Neill is a republican, etc. Yet they don't seem to care that
both Alston and Rassman are working directly for Kerrys campaign
unlike the Swift Vets organizers who are not working for Bushes.

Working honestly, up front about their connections.

The most disturbing thing about Kerry is that he worked against our
solders, lied about them, while he was a navy officier in the
reserves, during a time that our guys were still in vietnam fighting.

He worked against the war, the war that have been universally agreed was
a waste of money and lives, a war we should not have been fighting.
Kerry was working to bring them home. He was right.

He even met with representatives of the North Vietnamese.

When? Where? So? If I meet with a republican, does it mean I agree
with him?
Don't you get tired of shilling for crooks?
.

User: "Igtheist"
Title: Re: Smearboat Liars Caught In Own Lies, According to Navy Records	22 Aug 2004 10:49:15 PM

Enkidu <enkidu@leaddogs.org> wrote in message news:<Xns954C8FE022FA7o5l4bj502sneakemailc@68.6.19.6>...

igtheist_N_O_S_P_A_M@hotmail.com (Igtheist) wrote in
news:ec75c602.0408211221.17f2a9a5@posting.google.com:

CJT <abujlehc@prodigy.net> wrote in message
news:<4126BCDF.3020401@prodigy.net>...

That's the first I've heard of THAT claim -- how about some
specifics? (e.g. page numbers and quotes)

The best source you can cite is a blog? *****, that's weak, even for you!

Sorry media blackout. But you can go look up the records yourself if
you want. Look at the dates when Alston was in the hospital, when
Kerry took over the boat. Actually Kerrys version was already
disputed by the real commander of the boat in prior articles and Kerry
retracted his claim. Kerry wasn't commanding Alstons boat at the
time.
Funny, you to make statements like "*****, that's weak, even for you!"
when you haven't done squat.

Also apparently Alston only served at most one to two weeks with
Kerry. Also Rassman (or Rassmann) was not even a crew member but
only served a day or two at most with Kerry.

Rassmann was pulled from the water by Kerry. He says so. Kerry says so.
The citation says so. Navy records say so. William Rood, a swift boat
captain also present during the incident, says so.

So does every other Swift Boat Vet. So what's your point?
My point was that the Swift Boat Vets have been attacked as "not
serving on Kerrys boat" while the men standing by Kerry have. Which
is really a half truth. The Swift Vets have just as much credibility
as others in terms of time served with Kerry and the ability to be
eyewitnesses to his activities.

Working honestly, up front about their connections.

That's funny.

The most disturbing thing about Kerry is that he worked against our
solders, lied about them, while he was a navy officier in the
reserves, during a time that our guys were still in vietnam fighting.

He worked against the war, the war that have been universally agreed was
a waste of money and lives, a war we should not have been fighting.
Kerry was working to bring them home. He was right.

Go look up what he actually said. He wasn't merely arguing against
the war. He was lying about the other vets.

He even met with representatives of the North Vietnamese.

When? Where? So? If I meet with a republican, does it mean I agree
with him?

He was negotiating with them in Paris. Plus he was the leader of an
organization VVAW that was trying to get POW released to their org as
a stunt. None of this is disputed.

Don't you get tired of shilling for crooks?

So now the swift vets are crooks? Do you think the politician you
are protecting isn't a crook like just about every other politician.
.

User: "Igtheist"
Title: Re: Smearboat Liars Caught In Own Lies, According to Navy Records	23 Aug 2004 09:42:54 PM

Enkidu <enkidu@leaddogs.org> wrote in message news:<Xns954C8FE022FA7o5l4bj502sneakemailc@68.6.19.6>...

igtheist_N_O_S_P_A_M@hotmail.com (Igtheist) wrote in
news:ec75c602.0408211221.17f2a9a5@posting.google.com:

Working honestly, up front about their connections.

This sounds exactly like the stupid claim being made by Thane
Peterson.
"But sorry, my fellow journalists, there's no equivalency here. MoveOn
is an avowedly partisan group that openly opposes Bush. The Swift-boat
vets tried to cover their political tracks while claiming inside
knowledge about Kerry most of them clearly don't have. And several of
them have flip-flopped from publicly praising Kerry to attacking him."
Do you guys read from the same playbook or what.
You get get to Petersons article linked from here:
http://www.captainsquartersblog.com/mt/archives/002310.php#comments
Here's "The Captains" comments on this idiocy from the link:
On the other hand, prominent Democrats such as Rep. Sherrod Brown and
party chair Terry McAuliffe have repeatedly called Bush "AWOL", and
Kerry himself has alluded to the same on more than one occasion. In
addition, 527s such as MoveOn have beat the AWOL/deserter theme for
months on end, spending millions of dollars from wealthy donors such
as George Soros, and these organizations have been run by people with
past and present connections to both the Kerry/Edwards campaign and
the Democratic Party.
That's what makes this assertion by Peterson so laughable:
"But sorry, my fellow journalists, there's no equivalency here. MoveOn
is an avowedly partisan group that openly opposes Bush. The Swift-boat
vets tried to cover their political tracks while claiming inside
knowledge about Kerry most of them clearly don't have. And several of
them have flip-flopped from publicly praising Kerry to attacking him."
So let me get this straight -- MoveOn is more credible because of the
transparent nature of the illegal coordination between the Democrats
and the 527, while the Swiftvets suffer because no one can establish
these links? And they claim inside knowledge because they served in
the same unit and the same area as John Kerry, much the way William
Rood did -- they went out on patrols with Kerry and observed him from
close quarters on rivers and canals where the two banks often spread
less than 100 yards apart while they patrolled with their 50-foot
PCFs. Peterson hasn't spent much time distinguishing the operational
tactics of PCFs, which rarely if ever went out alone on patrols.
.

User: "Walter Scott"
Title: Re: Smearboat Liars Caught In Own Lies, According to Navy Records	21 Aug 2004 05:46:25 PM

You're mixing events, Enkidu. Rood was a witness to the event from
which Kerry received a Silver Star. That event occurred on February
28, 1969 and is separately addressed by the Swift Boat Veterans for
Truth. The event from which Kerry received a Bronze Star on March 13,
1969 is that in which Rassmann was pulled from the Bay Hap River and
the event in which 5 Swift boats found themselves under fire according
to official records.
http://www.nytimes.com/2004/08/20/politics/campaign/20swift.html?pagewanted=1&hp
Friendly Fire: The Birth of an Anti-Kerry Ad
By KATE ZERNIKE and JIM RUTENBERG
Published: August 20, 2004
[......]
The Silver Star was awarded after Mr. Kerry's boat came under
heavy fire from shore during a mission in February 1969.
According to Navy records, he turned the boat to charge the
Vietcong position. An enemy solider sprang from the shore
about 10 feet in front of the boat. Mr. Kerry leaped onto the
shore, chased the soldier behind a small hut and killed him,
seizing a B-40 rocket launcher with a round in the chamber.
[......]
According to a citation for Mr. Kerry's Bronze Star, a group
of Swift boats was leaving the Bay Hap river when several
mines detonated, disabling one boat and knocking a soldier
named Jim Rassmann overboard. In a hail of enemy fire, Mr.
Kerry turned the boat around to pull Mr. Rassmann from the
water.
In article <Xns954C8FE022FA7o5l4bj502sneakemailc@68.6.19.6> on Sat, 21
Aug 2004 21:08:30 GMT, Enkidu <enkidu@leaddogs.org> wrote:

Rassmann was pulled from the water by Kerry. He says so. Kerry says so.
The citation says so. Navy records say so. William Rood, a swift boat
captain also present during the incident, says so.

http://quote.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=10000087&sid=aSyBQsvG2a8I&refer=top_world_news

The search for truth requires the courage to accept it.

.

User: ""
Title: Re: Smearboat Liars Caught In Own Lies, According to Navy Records	21 Aug 2004 04:21:36 PM

On 21 Aug 2004 13:21:17 -0700,

(Igtheist) wrote:

Also Rassman (or Rassmann) was not even a crew member but
only served a day or two at most with Kerry.

He was a Green Beret returning from an insertion mission. Does this
some how diminish his account of being thrown off the boat by a mine
and being shot at while waiting for rescue?
No of course not. You boys are pathetic.
_______
Vote Bush/Voldemort 2004!
.

User: ""
Title: Re: Smearboat Liars Caught In Own Lies, According to Navy Records	21 Aug 2004 04:26:09 PM

On 21 Aug 2004 13:21:17 -0700,

(Igtheist) wrote:

The most disturbing thing about Kerry is that he worked against our
solders, lied about them, while he was a navy officier in the
reserves, during a time that our guys were still in vietnam fighting.

He worked to end a war that is now historically recognized as a fraud
and mistake. He did so after volunteering for COMBAT duty in that
war. (Not hiding in a NG unit.) SO people now realize what he spoke
of when he came back was the truth. History has vindicated his
position.
And now we are in danger of repeating the experience, being led into a
war on lies and mistakes and watching the occupation be bungled. We've
been led into another 10 year commitment of American blood and wealth
in a distant shore.
The swift boat vets are upset their efforts were misused. But they are
focusing on the wrong target. The pols that sent them there under lies
and kept them there while lying to the public is to blame for their
sacrifice.
And instead they do the bidding of the pols to attack the messenger
who cried out the emperor has no clothes.
Sad. Pathetic. They've been used twice and haven't learned from the
experience.
_______
Vote Bush/Voldemort 2004!
.

User: "james dorfu"
Title: Re: Smearboat Liars Caught In Own Lies, According to Navy Records	20 Aug 2004 10:19:11 PM

On Sat, 21 Aug 2004 03:09:21 +0000, CJT wrote:

Igtheist wrote:

"Yang, AthD (h.c)" <eacmole@/*AWOLBUSH*/mail.com> wrote in message news:<a288i0d06ld98e1j8t68q6nrnd08mvbf9r@4ax.com>...

Of course since those records are based on the fraudulent reports made
by Kerry.

According to Thurlow, who is the guy whose integrity is in question.

The guy whose integrity is most in question is, of course, John Kerry. Not
even his own campaign staff believe his "Christmas in Cambodia" tale, the
one that was "seared into memory...seared". No sane person can now doubt
that Kerry has repeatedly lied about that.
--
Thursday is this week's annual "Pork Chops for Islam" day.
.

User: "Lloyd Parker"
Title: Re: Smearboat Liars Caught In Own Lies, According to Navy Records	21 Aug 2004 06:21:39 AM

In article <udSdnebG5NmyIrvcRVn-tA@harbornet.com>,
james dorfu <dorf@edu.nospam.msu> wrote:

On Sat, 21 Aug 2004 03:09:21 +0000, CJT wrote:

Igtheist wrote:

"Yang, AthD (h.c)" <eacmole@/*AWOLBUSH*/mail.com> wrote in message

news:<a288i0d06ld98e1j8t68q6nrnd08mvbf9r@4ax.com>...

Of course since those records are based on the fraudulent reports made
by Kerry.

According to Thurlow, who is the guy whose integrity is in question.

www.factcheck.org
.

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