| Topic: |
Religions > Atheism |
| User: |
"Elroy Willis" |
| Date: |
20 Jan 2004 10:12:12 AM |
| Object: |
Snake Myths |
While doing some research about a snake that my cat dragged into the
garage the other day, I ran across the following tidbit of myth or
trivia, and wonder how many people around here had heard of it before.
From:
http://www.texassnakes.net/myths.html
"Rattlesnakes can hear their rattle. It's difficult to hear when
you don't have ears."
What kind of experiments can be set up to test such an idea?
--
Elroy Willis
EAP Chief Editor and Newshound
http://web2.airmail.net/~elo/news
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| User: "Dale" |
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| Title: Re: Snake Myths |
20 Jan 2004 01:22:34 PM |
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"Elroy Willis" <elo@airmail.net> wrote in message
news:8vjq005v6uoiug8s33m16j3c3blqpdhfsc@4ax.com...
While doing some research about a snake that my cat dragged into the
garage the other day, I ran across the following tidbit of myth or
trivia, and wonder how many people around here had heard of it before.
From:
http://www.texassnakes.net/myths.html
"Rattlesnakes can hear their rattle. It's difficult to hear when
you don't have ears."
What kind of experiments can be set up to test such an idea?
LOL! A mythical myth. Check out this url http://www.anapsid.org/torrey.html.
From the article:
----
Can snakes hear, you ask?
A few decades ago the answer was no, for - obviously - snakes don't have
external ears. And any way, snakes don't appear to respond to loud noises.
Further support for this view is found in some current zoology texts, which
still report that snakes lack the sense of hearing. But research begun about
35 years ago, especially the extensive investigations over many years by
E.G. Wever and associates at Princeton University, has shown that snakes
have a hearing capability(at least in an electrophysiological sense)
comparable to that of lizards.
----
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| User: "Frank Reichenbacher" |
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| Title: Re: Snake Myths |
20 Jan 2004 01:28:04 PM |
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"Elroy Willis" <elo@airmail.net> wrote in message
news:8vjq005v6uoiug8s33m16j3c3blqpdhfsc@4ax.com...
While doing some research about a snake that my cat dragged into the
garage the other day, I ran across the following tidbit of myth or
trivia, and wonder how many people around here had heard of it before.
From:
http://www.texassnakes.net/myths.html
"Rattlesnakes can hear their rattle. It's difficult to hear when
you don't have ears."
What kind of experiments can be set up to test such an idea?
Snakes do indeed have ears. They are internal rather than external, however.
If I'm not mistaken, someone's done experiments with rattlers in acoustic
chambers.
Frank
--
Elroy Willis
EAP Chief Editor and Newshound
http://web2.airmail.net/~elo/news
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| User: "Thomas H. Faller" |
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| Title: Re: Snake Myths |
20 Jan 2004 03:39:47 PM |
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Frank Reichenbacher wrote:
"Elroy Willis" <elo@airmail.net> wrote in message
news:8vjq005v6uoiug8s33m16j3c3blqpdhfsc@4ax.com...
While doing some research about a snake that my cat dragged into the
garage the other day, I ran across the following tidbit of myth or
trivia, and wonder how many people around here had heard of it before.
From:
http://www.texassnakes.net/myths.html
"Rattlesnakes can hear their rattle. It's difficult to hear when
you don't have ears."
What kind of experiments can be set up to test such an idea?
Snakes do indeed have ears. They are internal rather than external, however.
If I'm not mistaken, someone's done experiments with rattlers in acoustic
chambers.
Frank
Which means they can hear, but can you teach them to sing in tune?
Tom Faller
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| User: "shooty" |
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| Title: Re: Snake Myths |
21 Jan 2004 04:02:54 AM |
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"Thomas H. Faller" <faller@sgi.com> wrote in message news:<400D9F98.1A30FD3E@sgi.com>...
snip
Which means they can hear, but can you teach them to sing in tune?
Tom Faller
Yes, haven't you heard of 'Snake, Rattle and Roll' or 'Snakin' All Over'
Shooty
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| User: "Christopher A. Lee" |
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| Title: Re: Snake Myths |
21 Jan 2004 04:10:28 AM |
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On Wed, 21 Jan 2004 10:02:54 +0000 (UTC),
(shooty) wrote:
"Thomas H. Faller" <faller@sgi.com> wrote in message news:<400D9F98.1A30FD3E@sgi.com>...
snip
Which means they can hear, but can you teach them to sing in tune?
Tom Faller
Yes, haven't you heard of 'Snake, Rattle and Roll' or 'Snakin' All Over'
And then there was the snake so poor he han't got a pit to hiss in....
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| User: "Mark K. Bilbo" |
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| Title: Re: Snake Myths |
20 Jan 2004 07:27:38 PM |
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And so upon Tue, 20 Jan 2004 16:12:12 +0000 didst Elroy Willis speak
thusly:
While doing some research about a snake that my cat dragged into the
garage the other day, I ran across the following tidbit of myth or
trivia, and wonder how many people around here had heard of it before.
From:
http://www.texassnakes.net/myths.html
"Rattlesnakes can hear their rattle. It's difficult to hear when
you don't have ears."
What kind of experiments can be set up to test such an idea?
Dunno but on the same site I saw this:
" In the United States, we have only 4 species of venomous snakes
(copperhead, cottonmouth, rattlesnake, and coral snake), all of which are
found in Texas."
Yes. Yes they are.
<brrrrrr>
--
Mark K. Bilbo - a.a. #1423
EAC Department of Linguistic Subversion
"There is no system but GNU, and Linux is one of its kernels."
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| User: "mel turner" |
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| Title: Re: Snake Myths |
20 Jan 2004 09:13:41 PM |
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In article <pan.2004.01.21.01.26.01.420094@hoo.com-amikchi>, y@hoo.com-amikchi
[Mark K. Bilbo] wrote...
And so upon Tue, 20 Jan 2004 16:12:12 +0000 didst Elroy Willis speak
thusly:
While doing some research about a snake that my cat dragged into the
garage the other day, I ran across the following tidbit of myth or
trivia, and wonder how many people around here had heard of it before.
From:
http://www.texassnakes.net/myths.html
"Rattlesnakes can hear their rattle. It's difficult to hear when
you don't have ears."
What kind of experiments can be set up to test such an idea?
Dunno but on the same site I saw this:
" In the United States, we have only 4 species of venomous snakes
(copperhead, cottonmouth, rattlesnake, and coral snake), all of which are
found in Texas."
Yes. Yes they are.
That's actually incorrect. There are numerous different species of
rattlesnake [in two different genera, Crotalus and Sistrurus],
several of which don't occur in Texas. There are also two different
coral snakes [also classified in two genera] in the US, one of
which doesn't occur in Texas. The list is oddly inconsistent-- they
lump together all the rattlesnakes as one "species", even though
they're in two genera and range from tiny pygmy rattlers up to big
Eastern diamondbacks [which are not in Texas, BTW], but they keep
cottonmouths and copperheads separate as two of the "four", even
though they're quite close relatives within a single genus
Agkistrodon.
Oh, and there are several other types of [rear-fanged] snakes
here that are indeed truly venomous but happen to be harmless to
humans [thus, they're not on your list]. Some of them do live in
Texas, others don't.
<brrrrrr>
Naah, they're okay. Just mind where you step.
cheers
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| User: "Mark K. Bilbo" |
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| Title: Re: Snake Myths |
21 Jan 2004 09:29:37 AM |
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And so upon Wed, 21 Jan 2004 03:13:41 +0000 didst mel turner speak thusly:
In article <pan.2004.01.21.01.26.01.420094@hoo.com-amikchi>, y@hoo.com-amikchi
[Mark K. Bilbo] wrote...
And so upon Tue, 20 Jan 2004 16:12:12 +0000 didst Elroy Willis speak
thusly:
While doing some research about a snake that my cat dragged into the
garage the other day, I ran across the following tidbit of myth or
trivia, and wonder how many people around here had heard of it before.
From:
http://www.texassnakes.net/myths.html
"Rattlesnakes can hear their rattle. It's difficult to hear when
you don't have ears."
What kind of experiments can be set up to test such an idea?
Dunno but on the same site I saw this:
" In the United States, we have only 4 species of venomous snakes
(copperhead, cottonmouth, rattlesnake, and coral snake), all of which are
found in Texas."
Yes. Yes they are.
That's actually incorrect. There are numerous different species of
rattlesnake [in two different genera, Crotalus and Sistrurus],
several of which don't occur in Texas. There are also two different
coral snakes [also classified in two genera] in the US, one of
which doesn't occur in Texas. The list is oddly inconsistent-- they
lump together all the rattlesnakes as one "species", even though
they're in two genera and range from tiny pygmy rattlers up to big
Eastern diamondbacks [which are not in Texas, BTW], but they keep
cottonmouths and copperheads separate as two of the "four", even
though they're quite close relatives within a single genus
Agkistrodon.
Oh, and there are several other types of [rear-fanged] snakes
here that are indeed truly venomous but happen to be harmless to
humans [thus, they're not on your list]. Some of them do live in
Texas, others don't.
Heh. It's not *my list. My list consists of: SNAKE!!! RUN!!!!!
<G>
<brrrrrr>
Naah, they're okay. Just mind where you step.
I just had a problem with them deciding to sun themselves on the front
porch right in front of the door.
It was just *rude!
--
Mark K. Bilbo - a.a. #1423
EAC Department of Linguistic Subversion
"There is no system but GNU, and Linux is one of its kernels."
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| User: "Elroy Willis" |
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| Title: Re: Snake Myths |
21 Jan 2004 08:28:51 AM |
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Mark K. Bilbo <y@hoo.com-amikchi> wrote in alt.atheism
Elroy Willis speak thusly:
While doing some research about a snake that my cat dragged into the
garage the other day, I ran across the following tidbit of myth or
trivia, and wonder how many people around here had heard of it before.
From:
http://www.texassnakes.net/myths.html
"Rattlesnakes can hear their rattle. It's difficult to hear when
you don't have ears."
What kind of experiments can be set up to test such an idea?
Dunno but on the same site I saw this:
" In the United States, we have only 4 species of venomous snakes
(copperhead, cottonmouth, rattlesnake, and coral snake), all of which are
found in Texas."
Yes. Yes they are.
<brrrrrr>
I thought the one my cat dragged in looked like a copperhead, but it
turned out to be a plain old rat snake, so I let it go.
--
Elroy Willis
EAP Chief Editor and Newshound
http://web2.airmail.net/~elo/news
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| User: "Al Klein" |
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| Title: Re: Snake Myths |
07 Feb 2004 11:56:39 PM |
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On Sat, 7 Feb 2004 21:52:39 +0000 (UTC), dgillesp
<dgillesp@pemtel.net> posted in alt.atheism:
"The distance is worth the difference!"**
** quoted from an outdoor Baptist bulletin board
And just as stupid a reason for joining a church as any other.
--
"A stupid man's report of what a clever man says is never accurate because he
unconsciously translates what he hears into something he can understand."
-- Bertrand Russell.
(random sig, produced by SigChanger)
rukbat at optonline dot net
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| User: "R.Schenck" |
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| Title: Re: Snake Myths |
10 Feb 2004 05:47:03 PM |
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On Tue, 10 Feb 2004 00:55:35 +0000 (UTC), "\"Rev Dr\" Lenny Flank"
<lflank_nospam@ij.net> wrote:
I Am Your Clayton, Luke! wrote:
9 of the top 10 poisonous snakes in Australia actually...and if i remember
correctly 8 of the top 10 poisonous spiders..
I don't think there ARE 10 species of spider capable of causing human
deaths . . . . . . there is the Sydney funnel-web (the males are more
venomous than the females), and the redback spider (a memebr of the
black widow genus) . . . . others that can cause human deaths are the
hobo spider (at least suspected), the northern, southern and eastern
black widow (the other widow spieces are less dangerous to humans), and
the brown recluse (which is rarely fatal by itself but does some
impressive necrotic tissue damage which can easily lead to fatal
infections).
I can't think of any other spider species that is dangerous to humans . . .
BTW, the common story that the "daddy longlegs" spider is more lethal
than the black widow but is too weak to break human skin, is an urban
myth. The sotry probably started because these speice eat mostly other
spiders, including widows, and someone got the notion that if it can
kill a venomous widow spider, then it must be even MORE venomous. It isn't.
As for tarantulas, no human being has ever been killed through the toxic
effects of a tarantula bite. Ever. Anywhere on earth.
but you cant proooove it, so we have to kill all tarantulas and things
the look like them, just to be safe. [/tounge in cheek]
.
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| User: "Patrick James" |
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| Title: Re: Snake Myths |
20 Jan 2004 08:53:06 PM |
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On Tue, 20 Jan 2004 20:27:38 -0500, Mark K. Bilbo wrote
(in message <pan.2004.01.21.01.26.01.420094@hoo.com-amikchi>):
And so upon Tue, 20 Jan 2004 16:12:12 +0000 didst Elroy Willis speak
thusly:
While doing some research about a snake that my cat dragged into the
garage the other day, I ran across the following tidbit of myth or
trivia, and wonder how many people around here had heard of it before.
From:
http://www.texassnakes.net/myths.html
"Rattlesnakes can hear their rattle. It's difficult to hear when
you don't have ears."
What kind of experiments can be set up to test such an idea?
Dunno but on the same site I saw this:
" In the United States, we have only 4 species of venomous snakes
(copperhead, cottonmouth, rattlesnake, and coral snake), all of which are
found in Texas."
Yes. Yes they are.
It's worse than that. there are at least 16 different species of rattlesnake
in the United States out of a total of about 30 in the Western Hemisphere.
<http://www.geo-outdoors.info/pit_vipers.htm>,
<http://www.encyclopedia.com/html/r1/rattlesn.asp> There are also 2 different
species of coral snake.<http://www.encyclopedia.com/html/c1/coralsna.asp>
The largest rattlesnake in the US would probably be the western diamondback
rattlesnake. The most dangerous would probably be the timber rattlesnake.
<brrrrrr>
Be thankful you don't have fer-de-lance. There used to be fer-de-lance around
here; HM Gov imported mongooses from India to take 'em out. There still are
fer-de-lance on some islands (IIRC Cuba and St. Vincent) and in many parts of
Latin America. Fer-de-lance are very bad boys.
--
Si hoc legere scis nimium eruditionis habes
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| User: "Frank Reichenbacher" |
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| Title: Re: Snake Myths |
20 Jan 2004 09:32:03 PM |
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"Patrick James" <patjames@newsguy.com> wrote in message
news:0001HW.BC335348005BDAFBF04075B0@enews.newsguy.com...
On Tue, 20 Jan 2004 20:27:38 -0500, Mark K. Bilbo wrote
(in message <pan.2004.01.21.01.26.01.420094@hoo.com-amikchi>):
And so upon Tue, 20 Jan 2004 16:12:12 +0000 didst Elroy Willis speak
thusly:
While doing some research about a snake that my cat dragged into the
garage the other day, I ran across the following tidbit of myth or
trivia, and wonder how many people around here had heard of it before.
From:
http://www.texassnakes.net/myths.html
"Rattlesnakes can hear their rattle. It's difficult to hear when
you don't have ears."
What kind of experiments can be set up to test such an idea?
Dunno but on the same site I saw this:
" In the United States, we have only 4 species of venomous snakes
(copperhead, cottonmouth, rattlesnake, and coral snake), all of which
are
found in Texas."
Yes. Yes they are.
It's worse than that. there are at least 16 different species of
rattlesnake
in the United States out of a total of about 30 in the Western Hemisphere.
<http://www.geo-outdoors.info/pit_vipers.htm>,
<http://www.encyclopedia.com/html/r1/rattlesn.asp> There are also 2
different
species of coral snake.<http://www.encyclopedia.com/html/c1/coralsna.asp>
The largest rattlesnake in the US would probably be the western
diamondback
rattlesnake. The most dangerous would probably be the timber rattlesnake.
It's worse than that even. Turns out all (nearly all?) species of
Colubridae, which includes the bulk of snake species in North America, carry
at least some venom in their rear fangs. So, technically, most species of
snakes are poisonous (though not dangerous to humans). The whipsnakes,
hognosed snakes, lyre snake, night snake, are all examples of venomous
rear-fanged snakes which are no danger to humans.
Frank
<brrrrrr>
Be thankful you don't have fer-de-lance. There used to be fer-de-lance
around
here; HM Gov imported mongooses from India to take 'em out. There still
are
fer-de-lance on some islands (IIRC Cuba and St. Vincent) and in many parts
of
Latin America. Fer-de-lance are very bad boys.
--
Si hoc legere scis nimium eruditionis habes
.
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| User: "John M Price PhD" |
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| Title: Re: Snake Myths |
25 Jan 2004 02:34:06 PM |
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In sci.skeptic article <0001HW.BC335348005BDAFBF04075B0@enews.newsguy.com> Patrick James <patjames@newsguy.com> wrote:
: It's worse than that. there are at least 16 different species of rattlesnake
: in the United States out of a total of about 30 in the Western Hemisphere.
Arizona, where I did my BS, has 14 spp. of Crotalus.
Plus a coral snake. Plus one of the two poisonous lizards. Spiders big
as your palm (but calm, usually - they crawl right up to the bottom of a
nice Pringles can when placed over them).
: <http://www.geo-outdoors.info/pit_vipers.htm>,
: <http://www.encyclopedia.com/html/r1/rattlesn.asp> There are also 2 different
: species of coral snake.<http://www.encyclopedia.com/html/c1/coralsna.asp>
: The largest rattlesnake in the US would probably be the western diamondback
: rattlesnake. The most dangerous would probably be the timber rattlesnake.
There is also the Mohave, with its blend of neuro and hemotoxic venom.
(c) 2004. Copyright, John M. Price, PhD. All Rights Reserved.
Contents may not be republished in any form or medium without prior
written consent of the author with the express and only exception of
followup postings limited to and within usenet.
--
John M. Price, PhD
Life: Chemistry, but with feeling! | PGP Key on request or FTP!
Email responses to my Usenet articles will be posted at my discretion.
Comoderator: sci.psychology.psychotherapy.moderated Atheist# 683
Monday's child is fair of face,
Tuesday's child is full of grace,
Wednesday's child is full of woe,
Thursday's child has far to go,
Friday's child is loving and giving,
Saturday's child works hard for its living,
But a child that's born on the Sabbath day
Is bonny and blithe, and good and gay.
.
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| User: "\Rev Dr\ Lenny Flank" |
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| Title: Re: Snake Myths |
25 Jan 2004 04:20:51 PM |
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John M Price PhD wrote:
In sci.skeptic article <0001HW.BC335348005BDAFBF04075B0@enews.newsguy.com> Patrick James <patjames@newsguy.com> wrote:
: It's worse than that. there are at least 16 different species of rattlesnake
: in the United States out of a total of about 30 in the Western Hemisphere.
Arizona, where I did my BS, has 14 spp. of Crotalus.
Plus a coral snake. Plus one of the two poisonous lizards. Spiders big
as your palm (but calm, usually - they crawl right up to the bottom of a
nice Pringles can when placed over them).
: <http://www.geo-outdoors.info/pit_vipers.htm>,
: <http://www.encyclopedia.com/html/r1/rattlesn.asp> There are also 2 different
: species of coral snake.<http://www.encyclopedia.com/html/c1/coralsna.asp>
: The largest rattlesnake in the US would probably be the western diamondback
: rattlesnake. The most dangerous would probably be the timber rattlesnake.
There is also the Mohave, with its blend of neuro and hemotoxic venom.
A few corrections here:
The largest rattlesnake in the US is the eastern diamondback, which can
reach lengths over 8 feet. Other snakes with 8-foot lengths in the US
are bullsnakes, black rat snakes and indigo snakes, but these are all
very thin-bodied, whereas the diamondback is very heavy-bodied and bulky.
Timber rattlers are very rare in most of their range and seldom bite
people. In the range occupied by timber rattlers, copperheads bite more
people than anything else.
The most dangerous rattler depends on what one means by "most
dangerous". The rattler that bites the most people each year is the
prairie rattler, but the death rate is low. The rattler that injects
the largest amount of venom per bite is the eastern diamondback. The
rattler with the most potent venom, drop for drop, is the Mojave (and in
reference to the comment above, ALL rattlers have a mix of hemotoxic and
neurotoxic components -- they differ in the proportion of each, though,
and this mix varies from individual to individual, even within the same
individual at different parts of the year). The rattler that actually
kills the most people per year in the US is the western diamondback.
The South American rattler, or cascabel, is more aggressive and has more
powerful venom than any North American species, and kills more people
than all US rattler species put together.
The "danger" presented by snakes is extremely exaggerated. Fewer people
die from snakebite in the US each year than are killed by honeybees or
lightning strikes. The majority of snakebites result from people
attempting to handle or capture/kill the snake (a very high proportion
of snakebite accidents in the US involve captive snakes being kept as
"pets", and an even higher proportion of snakebites are alcohol-related).
The injection of venom is under the conscious control of the snake, and
pit vipers typically don't inject any venom at all in about half of
their defensive bites (this is known as a "dry bite"). In about half
the instances where they do inject venom, it is in such a small amount
that no clinical symptoms occur. And even in bites where a full venom
load is delivered, the death rate in untreated North American pit viper
bites ranges no higher than 35 percent, with most species hanging around
15-20 percent.
Rattlesnakes are not aggressive animals and, despite the wild stories
you might hear, they do not "chase" humans. Indeed, any experienced
snake handler will tell you that rattlers are quite calm and docile and
are very much easier to handle than, say, a mamba or cobra.
As for tarantulas (the spiders that crawl into Pringle's cans), they are
even more highly exaggerated than snakes. There are no recorded deaths
of any human, at any time, in any place, as the direct result of being
envenomated by any species of tarantula. None. As a longtime keeper,
I've been bitten at least a dozen times by various tarantulas and never
suffered anything beyond local effects (I've never been bitten by a
venomous snake because I have proper equipment and use it religiously).
Nearly all of the North American species are in fact extremely docile
and make good pets -- they can be picked up and handled with complete
safety. Species from Africa and Asia tend to be more aggressive (some
African species are VERY apt to bite) but the venom isn't very potent,
and tarantulas are not considered to be a medical threat anywhere.
Those with the most potent venom, drop for drop, are the _Poecilotheria_
species from India, and there are no reported deaths from that species,
though some people who have been bitten have reported noticeable
systemic symptoms consistent with neurotoxic envenomation.
Finally, about the venomous lizard, that is the Gila monster. The venom
is quite weak and death is very rare -- it's primary purpose is to cause
pain, lots of it (unlike snakes, which use their venom to procure food,
gila monsters feed mostly on bird nestlings and eggs, so their venom is
purely defensive in purpose). Since Gila monsters are fat, slow, cannot
turn quickly and cannot strike very far, nearly all bites are the result
of people attempting to capture or otherwise handle the lizard.
===============================================
Lenny Flank
"There are no loose threads in the web of life"
Creation "Science" Debunked:
http://www.geocities.com/lflank
DebunkCreation Email list:
http://www.groups.yahoo.com/group/DebunkCreation
-----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =-----
http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World!
-----== Over 100,000 Newsgroups - 19 Different Servers! =-----
.
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| User: "Patrick James" |
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| Title: Re: Snake Myths |
26 Jan 2004 02:17:11 PM |
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On Sun, 25 Jan 2004 17:20:51 -0500, Rev Dr\ Lenny Flank wrote
(in message <40144111$1_4@corp.newsgroups.com>):
John M Price PhD wrote:
In sci.skeptic article <0001HW.BC335348005BDAFBF04075B0@enews.newsguy.com>
Patrick James <patjames@newsguy.com> wrote:
It's worse than that. there are at least 16 different species of
rattlesnake
in the United States out of a total of about 30 in the Western
Hemisphere.
Arizona, where I did my BS, has 14 spp. of Crotalus.
Plus a coral snake. Plus one of the two poisonous lizards. Spiders big
as your palm (but calm, usually - they crawl right up to the bottom of a
nice Pringles can when placed over them).
<http://www.geo-outdoors.info/pit_vipers.htm>,
<http://www.encyclopedia.com/html/r1/rattlesn.asp> There are also 2
different
species of coral snake.<http://www.encyclopedia.com/html/c1/coralsna.asp>
The largest rattlesnake in the US would probably be the western
diamondback
rattlesnake. The most dangerous would probably be the timber rattlesnake.
There is also the Mohave, with its blend of neuro and hemotoxic venom.
A few corrections here:
The largest rattlesnake in the US is the eastern diamondback, which can
reach lengths over 8 feet. Other snakes with 8-foot lengths in the US
are bullsnakes, black rat snakes and indigo snakes, but these are all
very thin-bodied, whereas the diamondback is very heavy-bodied and bulky.
I thought the Western diamondback could hit 9-10 feet long?
Timber rattlers are very rare in most of their range and seldom bite
people. In the range occupied by timber rattlers, copperheads bite more
people than anything else.
The most dangerous rattler depends on what one means by "most
dangerous". The rattler that bites the most people each year is the
prairie rattler, but the death rate is low. The rattler that injects
the largest amount of venom per bite is the eastern diamondback. The
rattler with the most potent venom, drop for drop, is the Mojave (and in
reference to the comment above, ALL rattlers have a mix of hemotoxic and
neurotoxic components -- they differ in the proportion of each, though,
and this mix varies from individual to individual, even within the same
individual at different parts of the year). The rattler that actually
kills the most people per year in the US is the western diamondback.
The South American rattler, or cascabel, is more aggressive and has more
powerful venom than any North American species, and kills more people
than all US rattler species put together.
How do they rate relative to my personal fav viper, the fer-de-lance?
The "danger" presented by snakes is extremely exaggerated. Fewer people
die from snakebite in the US each year than are killed by honeybees or
lightning strikes. The majority of snakebites result from people
attempting to handle or capture/kill the snake (a very high proportion
of snakebite accidents in the US involve captive snakes being kept as
"pets", and an even higher proportion of snakebites are alcohol-related).
Anyone who keeps a venomous snake as a 'pet' simply ain't too bright, and
deserves what he's about to get. Anyone who gets drunk enough to screw around
with a rattlesnake also deserves what he's about to get. For my fav drunk
idiot vs. poisonous snake story, check out 1999 Honorable Mention: Nine Times
a Loser from the Darwin Awards site. <http://www.darwinawards.com/darwin/>
This appears to have actually happened. At least they have a pic of the idiot
in question.
The injection of venom is under the conscious control of the snake, and
pit vipers typically don't inject any venom at all in about half of
their defensive bites (this is known as a "dry bite"). In about half
the instances where they do inject venom, it is in such a small amount
that no clinical symptoms occur. And even in bites where a full venom
load is delivered, the death rate in untreated North American pit viper
bites ranges no higher than 35 percent, with most species hanging around
15-20 percent.
Rattlesnakes are not aggressive animals and, despite the wild stories
you might hear, they do not "chase" humans. Indeed, any experienced
snake handler will tell you that rattlers are quite calm and docile and
are very much easier to handle than, say, a mamba or cobra.
Thanks, but y'all can handle 'em.
As for tarantulas (the spiders that crawl into Pringle's cans), they are
even more highly exaggerated than snakes. There are no recorded deaths
of any human, at any time, in any place, as the direct result of being
envenomated by any species of tarantula. None. As a longtime keeper,
I've been bitten at least a dozen times by various tarantulas and never
suffered anything beyond local effects
Tarantulas are nice, well-behaved, animals.
(I've never been bitten by a
venomous snake because I have proper equipment and use it religiously).
The only snakes I've handled are nice small grass snakes and boas. Once it
gets bigger than about three feet long I leave it alone, thanks. And vipers
need not apply.
Nearly all of the North American species are in fact extremely docile
and make good pets -- they can be picked up and handled with complete
safety. Species from Africa and Asia tend to be more aggressive (some
African species are VERY apt to bite) but the venom isn't very potent,
and tarantulas are not considered to be a medical threat anywhere.
Those with the most potent venom, drop for drop, are the _Poecilotheria_
species from India, and there are no reported deaths from that species,
though some people who have been bitten have reported noticeable
systemic symptoms consistent with neurotoxic envenomation.
Finally, about the venomous lizard, that is the Gila monster. The venom
is quite weak and death is very rare -- it's primary purpose is to cause
pain, lots of it (unlike snakes, which use their venom to procure food,
gila monsters feed mostly on bird nestlings and eggs, so their venom is
purely defensive in purpose). Since Gila monsters are fat, slow, cannot
turn quickly and cannot strike very far, nearly all bites are the result
of people attempting to capture or otherwise handle the lizard.
In other words, they got what they deserved.
--
Si hoc legere scis nimium eruditionis habes
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| User: "\Rev Dr\ Lenny Flank" |
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| Title: Re: Snake Myths |
27 Jan 2004 06:23:01 PM |
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Patrick James wrote:
<snip>
I thought the Western diamondback could hit 9-10 feet long?
No snake anywhere in North America gets anywhere near that length.
The South American rattler, or cascabel, is more aggressive and has more
powerful venom than any North American species, and kills more people
than all US rattler species put together.
How do they rate relative to my personal fav viper, the fer-de-lance?
Fer-de-lance, along with other members of the _Bothrops_ genus, are
indeed much more agile and defensive than most other pit vipers, and
they kill a rather high proportion of their victims. But they prefer to
live in undeveloped areas away from people, and thus are not often
encountered.
Anyone who keeps a venomous snake as a 'pet' simply ain't too bright, and
deserves what he's about to get.
I quite agree. They are not "pets". The only hot snakes I've kept were
used for educational talks and shows.
Rattlesnakes are not aggressive animals and, despite the wild stories
you might hear, they do not "chase" humans. Indeed, any experienced
snake handler will tell you that rattlers are quite calm and docile and
are very much easier to handle than, say, a mamba or cobra.
Thanks, but y'all can handle 'em.
Well, MOST of the time, we can. ;> It is indeed the rare handler who
can go an entire career without getting tagged at least once.
As for tarantulas (the spiders that crawl into Pringle's cans), they are
even more highly exaggerated than snakes. There are no recorded deaths
of any human, at any time, in any place, as the direct result of being
envenomated by any species of tarantula. None. As a longtime keeper,
I've been bitten at least a dozen times by various tarantulas and never
suffered anything beyond local effects
Tarantulas are nice, well-behaved, animals.
I had a pink-toe tarantula from South America that I used to do shows
with. Pink-toes are arboreal and are excellent climbers and jumpers.
It was a pretty safe bet that, at some point while I was holding her in
the palm of my hand during my talk, she would leap into the air, land on
my chest or face, and then scramble to the top of my head and perch
there. I, of course, was used to it, but the poor audience always came
close to having a collective heart attack. ;>
On the other hand, many of the African species are very defensive and
will freely bite anything that comes within range (and rear up and
THREATEN to bite anything that moves even if it is NOT in range).
(I've never been bitten by a
venomous snake because I have proper equipment and use it religiously).
The only snakes I've handled are nice small grass snakes and boas. Once it
gets bigger than about three feet long I leave it alone, thanks. And vipers
need not apply.
The big constrictors are MUCH more difficult to handle than venomous
snakes. With hot snakes, you're OK as long as you stay out of range of
the sharp end. With big constrictors, though, the entire 15-20 foot
long body is a potential deadly weapon. . . . Fortunately, most boas and
pythons tame rather quickly (with a few exceptions -- reticulated
pythons tend to be a bit nippy, and anacondas are just plain grouchy).
My 8.5 foot boa and 15.5 foot Burmese python were both puppy dog tame.
Since Gila monsters are fat, slow, cannot
turn quickly and cannot strike very far, nearly all bites are the result
of people attempting to capture or otherwise handle the lizard.
In other words, they got what they deserved.
Yep. The only exceptions being those unfortunate enough to accidentally
sit down on one (it does happen occasionally).
Talk about a pain in the ***** . . . . . . ;>
===============================================
Lenny Flank
"There are no loose threads in the web of life"
Creation "Science" Debunked:
http://www.geocities.com/lflank
DebunkCreation Email list:
http://www.groups.yahoo.com/group/DebunkCreation
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| User: "Kevin D. Quitt" |
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| Title: Re: Snake Myths |
25 Jan 2004 11:28:47 PM |
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On Sun, 25 Jan 2004 22:20:51 +0000 (UTC), "\"Rev Dr\" Lenny Flank" >The "danger"
presented by snakes is extremely exaggerated. Fewer people
die from snakebite in the US each year than are killed by honeybees or
lightning strikes. The majority of snakebites result from people
attempting to handle or capture/kill the snake (a very high proportion
of snakebite accidents in the US involve captive snakes being kept as
"pets", and an even higher proportion of snakebites are alcohol-related).
I'm working from memory, here. There was an article on this in the SWHS
Newsletter some time back (you'd think, that as editor, I'd remember when), but
I don't have it at hand; these stats are for California, I believe.
Alcohol is involved in 70%. All but a very few are people playing with the
snake or trying to kill it. The annual death rate for rattlesnakes in
California is 0.5. One of the last people to die from a rattlesnake bite had 24
bites - his friend had 22. They were tossing the snake back and forth.
Mature western rattlesnakes frequently do not envenomate when they strike,
especially something they have no intention of eating. You will get a little
venom from such a strike, but only a very small percentage of what they are
capable of delivering; the bites are their penultimate warning. I am told that
younger snakes are more likely to kill as they don't have the fine control and
tend to fully envenomate when they strike.
--
_
Kevin D. Quitt 91387-4454
96.37% of all statistics are made up
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| User: "\Rev Dr\ Lenny Flank" |
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| Title: Re: Snake Myths |
26 Jan 2004 07:16:11 AM |
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Kevin D. Quitt wrote:
On Sun, 25 Jan 2004 22:20:51 +0000 (UTC), "\"Rev Dr\" Lenny Flank" >The "danger"
presented by snakes is extremely exaggerated. Fewer people
die from snakebite in the US each year than are killed by honeybees or
lightning strikes. The majority of snakebites result from people
attempting to handle or capture/kill the snake (a very high proportion
of snakebite accidents in the US involve captive snakes being kept as
"pets", and an even higher proportion of snakebites are alcohol-related).
I'm working from memory, here. There was an article on this in the SWHS
Newsletter some time back (you'd think, that as editor, I'd remember when), but
I don't have it at hand; these stats are for California, I believe.
Alcohol is involved in 70%. All but a very few are people playing with the
snake or trying to kill it. The annual death rate for rattlesnakes in
California is 0.5. One of the last people to die from a rattlesnake bite had 24
bites - his friend had 22. They were tossing the snake back and forth.
Mature western rattlesnakes frequently do not envenomate when they strike,
especially something they have no intention of eating. You will get a little
venom from such a strike, but only a very small percentage of what they are
capable of delivering; the bites are their penultimate warning. I am told that
younger snakes are more likely to kill as they don't have the fine control and
tend to fully envenomate when they strike.
That's right. It is a myth that young snakes have more potent venom than
adult snakes do, but in reality the young snakes simply haven't loearned
the fine muscle control that adults have, and are mroe likely to dump a
full load into anything they bite.
===============================================
Lenny Flank
"There are no loose threads in the web of life"
Creation "Science" Debunked:
http://www.geocities.com/lflank
DebunkCreation Email list:
http://www.groups.yahoo.com/group/DebunkCreation
-----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =-----
http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World!
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.
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| User: "Elroy Willis" |
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| Title: Re: Snake Myths |
26 Jan 2004 10:59:23 AM |
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Rev Dr Lenny Flank <lflank_nospam@ij.net> wrote in alt.atheism
Indeed, any experienced snake handler will tell you that rattlers are quite
calm and docile and are very much easier to handle than, say, a mamba
or cobra.
Are there any foreign xtian cults which use mambas and cobras instead
of rattlesnakes? I'm pretty sure all the ones I've seen used
rattlesnakes, and assumed it was because that was all they could
find in their area.
--
Elroy Willis
EAP Chief Editor and Newshound
http://web2.airmail.net/~elo/news
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| User: "\Rev Dr\ Lenny Flank" |
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| Title: Re: Snake Myths |
26 Jan 2004 06:02:23 PM |
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Elroy Willis wrote:
Rev Dr Lenny Flank <lflank_nospam@ij.net> wrote in alt.atheism
Indeed, any experienced snake handler will tell you that rattlers are quite
calm and docile and are very much easier to handle than, say, a mamba
or cobra.
Are there any foreign xtian cults which use mambas and cobras instead
of rattlesnakes? I'm pretty sure all the ones I've seen used
rattlesnakes, and assumed it was because that was all they could
find in their area.
Hindu and Muslim fakirs of course use cobras, and contrary to popular
myth, those snakes are usually NOT defanged or made "safe" in any way
--- the fakir depends on his intimate knowledge of the habits and
capabilities of the snake (including the little-known fact that cobras
and mambas cannot strike upwards) to keep from being bitten.
As for the US fundies who handle snakes as part of their ceremony, I
have heard that they DO indeed "milk" the snakes beforehand to render
them (mostly) harmless. As did the Hopi tribe during its "rattlesnake
dance".
===============================================
Lenny Flank
"There are no loose threads in the web of life"
Creation "Science" Debunked:
http://www.geocities.com/lflank
DebunkCreation Email list:
http://www.groups.yahoo.com/group/DebunkCreation
-----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =-----
http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World!
-----== Over 100,000 Newsgroups - 19 Different Servers! =-----
.
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| User: "Patrick James" |
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| Title: Re: Snake Myths |
26 Jan 2004 02:17:13 PM |
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On Mon, 26 Jan 2004 11:59:23 -0500, Elroy Willis wrote
(in message <5gha10h0k4np37ls3eqofa81hovgbdnsbi@4ax.com>):
Rev Dr Lenny Flank <lflank_nospam@ij.net> wrote in alt.atheism
Indeed, any experienced snake handler will tell you that rattlers are quite
calm and docile and are very much easier to handle than, say, a mamba
or cobra.
Are there any foreign xtian cults which use mambas and cobras instead
of rattlesnakes? I'm pretty sure all the ones I've seen used
rattlesnakes, and assumed it was because that was all they could
find in their area.
Anyone who screws around with cobras or mambas will get what they deserve
really quickly. For those who live in south Asia, I'd recommend hammadryads.
In Africa, black mambas or rhingals. (Or, for viper bigots, Gaboon vipers.)
In Australia, taipans. Go for it, guys, go for it.
In fact, maybe a few American snake cults should import a few fer-de-lance or
bushmasters or taipans. The average IQ of humanity should go up a few notches
shortly thereafter.
--
Si hoc legere scis nimium eruditionis habes
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| User: "Elroy Willis" |
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| Title: Re: Snake Myths |
26 Jan 2004 03:18:26 PM |
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Patrick James <patjames@newsguy.com> wrote in alt.atheism
In fact, maybe a few American snake cults should import a few
fer-de-lance or bushmasters or taipans.
Bushmasters are forbidden here. We don't let them in without
a fight.
--
Elroy Willis
EAP Chief Editor and Newshound
http://web2.airmail.net/~elo/news
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| User: "Carol Lee Smith" |
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| Title: Re: Snake Myths |
20 Jan 2004 09:51:00 PM |
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On Wed, 21 Jan 2004, Patrick James wrote:
On Tue, 20 Jan 2004 20:27:38 -0500, Mark K. Bilbo wrote
While doing some research about a snake that my cat dragged into the
garage the other day, I ran across the following tidbit of myth or
trivia, and wonder how many people around here had heard of it before.
From:
http://www.texassnakes.net/myths.html
"Rattlesnakes can hear their rattle. It's difficult to hear when
you don't have ears."
What kind of experiments can be set up to test such an idea?
Dunno but on the same site I saw this:
" In the United States, we have only 4 species of venomous snakes
(copperhead, cottonmouth, rattlesnake, and coral snake), all of which are
found in Texas."
Yes. Yes they are.
It's worse than that. there are at least 16 different species of rattlesnake
in the United States out of a total of about 30 in the Western Hemisphere.
I found a site which said there are 10 different "species" of rattlesnakes
IN TEXAS.
I always think of the Texas snakes as coming in two
varieties/kinds/types--don't know for sure what is the right category
word. But those two are coral snakes and pit vipers. Among the pit
vipers there a whole bunch of "species," that is if the different
rattlesnakes each represent a "species."
All of the venomous snakes in TX, with the exception of the coral
snake(s?) are pit vipers.
When I lived in Texas, I finally convinced neighbors not to kill every
snake they saw. There are some very useful snakes. I was not unusual for
neighbors to call me over to I.D. snakes. I only killed one mocassin--the
snakes usually turned out to be harmless critters, not pit vipers.
<http://www.geo-outdoors.info/pit_vipers.htm>,
<http://www.encyclopedia.com/html/r1/rattlesn.asp> There are also 2 different
species of coral snake.<http://www.encyclopedia.com/html/c1/coralsna.asp>
The largest rattlesnake in the US would probably be the western diamondback
rattlesnake. The most dangerous would probably be the timber rattlesnake.
<brrrrrr>
Be thankful you don't have fer-de-lance. There used to be fer-de-lance around
here; HM Gov imported mongooses from India to take 'em out. There still are
fer-de-lance on some islands (IIRC Cuba and St. Vincent) and in many parts of
Latin America. Fer-de-lance are very bad boys.
--
Si hoc legere scis nimium eruditionis habes
"All religions are founded on the fear of the many and the cleverness of
the few." -- Marie Henri Beyle (Stendhal)
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| User: "Danny Kodicek" |
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| Title: Re: Snake Myths |
23 Jan 2004 03:20:32 AM |
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"Carol Lee Smith" <human@csd.uwm.edu> wrote in message
news:Pine.OSF.3.96.1040120214257.5430J-100000@alpha1.csd.uwm.edu...
When I lived in Texas, I finally convinced neighbors not to kill every
snake they saw. There are some very useful snakes. I was not unusual for
neighbors to call me over to I.D. snakes.
Jeez, have the ID guys even got to the snakes now? 'Teaching the
controversy. Many snakes claim they were descended from other reptiles and
even from single-celled organisms millions of years ago, but this is in
direct contradiction of the sacred word of Gawd who tells us that snakes are
actually the descendents of the creature that told some human to eat some
food and that's why we have no legs. Or something.'
Danny
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| User: "Rev. Desertphile" |
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| Title: Re: Snake Myths |
21 Jan 2004 04:35:58 PM |
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On Wed, 21 Jan 2004 01:27:38 +0000 (UTC), "Mark K. Bilbo"
<y@hoo.com-amikchi> wrote:
Dunno but on the same site I saw this:
" In the United States, we have only 4 species of venomous snakes
(copperhead, cottonmouth, rattlesnake, and coral snake), all of
which are found in Texas."
Too bad they didn't *STAY* in Texas.
Yes. Yes they are.
<brrrrrr>
Now and then I'll be visited (unexpectedly) by a Mojave Rattlesnake
while I'm stumbling around naked outside at night trying to de-*****.
It always reminds me I should never leave my cabin without a mongoose.
--
Mark K. Bilbo - a.a. #1423
EAC Department of Linguistic Subversion
"There is no system but GNU, and Linux is one of its kernels."
--
"To the bat tank!" --- Tank Girl
Asking a Creationist for scientific evidence is like asking a hippo to ride
a unicycle.
.
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| User: "Kevin D. Quitt" |
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| Title: Re: Snake Myths |
22 Jan 2004 12:34:30 AM |
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On Wed, 21 Jan 2004 01:27:38 +0000 (UTC), "Mark K. Bilbo" <y@hoo.com-amikchi>
wrote:
" In the United States, we have only 4 species of venomous snakes
(copperhead, cottonmouth, rattlesnake, and coral snake), all of which are
found in Texas."
Pish tosh. On a scale of 1 to 100, where 100 is the most venomous, North
American snakes marginally get to 10. All the most poisonous critters are in
Australia.
--
_
Kevin D. Quitt 91387-4454
96.37% of all statistics are made up
.
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| User: "Von Smith" |
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| Title: Re: Snake Myths |
07 Feb 2004 09:21:58 PM |
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"Kevin D. Quitt" <Kevin@Quitt.net> wrote in message news:<iiru00htproig83kkp3e46gabrk0lhqg9e@4ax.com>...
On Wed, 21 Jan 2004 01:27:38 +0000 (UTC), "Mark K. Bilbo" <y@hoo.com-amikchi>
wrote:
" In the United States, we have only 4 species of venomous snakes
(copperhead, cottonmouth, rattlesnake, and coral snake), all of which are
found in Texas."
Pish tosh. On a scale of 1 to 100, where 100 is the most venomous, North
American snakes marginally get to 10. All the most poisonous critters are in
Australia.
IIRC, the Australians refer to these with the grimly self-explanatory
term "two steppers" (and not because they do country-western dancing)?
Von Smith
Fortuna nimis dat multis, satis nulli.
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| User: "John Wilkins" |
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| Title: Re: Snake Myths |
22 Jan 2004 05:45:27 AM |
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Kevin D. Quitt <Kevin@Quitt.net> wrote:
On Wed, 21 Jan 2004 01:27:38 +0000 (UTC), "Mark K. Bilbo" <y@hoo.com-amikchi>
wrote:
" In the United States, we have only 4 species of venomous snakes
(copperhead, cottonmouth, rattlesnake, and coral snake), all of which are
found in Texas."
Pish tosh. On a scale of 1 to 100, where 100 is the most venomous, North
American snakes marginally get to 10. All the most poisonous critters are in
Australia.
And some of them are snakes and spiders. However, we corral the worst
critters in Parliament.
.
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| User: "Johan van Zyl - JVZ Systems CC" |
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| Title: Re: Snake Myths |
07 Feb 2004 10:18:54 AM |
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We have a few here in South Africa.
Mamba, boomslang, puffadder (no it is not a "queer" or gay adder) to
name a few.
But I believe that the top 5(?) poisonous snakes are found in
Australia.
On Thu, 22 Jan 2004 06:34:30 +0000 (UTC), "Kevin D. Quitt"
<Kevin@Quitt.net> wrote:
On Wed, 21 Jan 2004 01:27:38 +0000 (UTC), "Mark K. Bilbo" <y@hoo.com-amikchi>
wrote:
" In the United States, we have only 4 species of venomous snakes
(copperhead, cottonmouth, rattlesnake, and coral snake), all of which are
found in Texas."
Pish tosh. On a scale of 1 to 100, where 100 is the most venomous, North
American snakes marginally get to 10. All the most poisonous critters are in
Australia.
.
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