| Topic: |
Religions > Atheism |
| User: |
"August Pamplona" |
| Date: |
05 Jun 2004 04:22:54 PM |
| Object: |
So I tried a chiropractor. |
Some may know that I don't hold much stock in various claims often
associated with chiropractic. However, I have been open to the
possibility that they might be good (perhaps even very good --possibly
even the treatment modality of choice) at dealing with a range of
musculo-skeletal issues (what these musculo-skeletal issues are, I do
not know --though lower back pain is popularly believed to be one such
issue). IOW, while I believe the entity known as the chiropractic
subluxation is quite probably fictitious (in the same category as
invisible pink unicorns --as far as I'm concerned) and while I don't
believe anybody is likely to ever be cured of deafness by a swift
manipulation of the cervical spine (anecdote of the founder) or any of
the nonsense many chiropractors routinely promote, I think it is
possible that some musculo-skeletal issues might just be "their cup of
tea".
As it turns out I feel that I do have a "musculo-skeletal issue"
that I need to deal with (well, maybe more than one). Sometime around a
year ago I had an episode of incapacitating lower back pain. O.K., so
everybody has had back pain (and in fact, there's probably not a single
part of my spine which isn't at least a little bit screwed up) but what
was new to me was having an episode severe enough to be incapacitating
(dull ache might be as bad as it's ever gotten before). I had the same
thing happen again during the week of Christmas (severe enough that my
first attempt at getting out of bed on the second day had to be aborted.
The other odd thing about these two episodes is that the pain did not
originate in the lumbar spine region (isn't that what most people are
referring to when talking about back pain?) but rather seemed to be
located in the sacroiliac joint region. Oh, and the issue never fully
resolved: most of the pain went away in less two weeks but discomfort in
the area still persists to this day (it can be felt when shifting the
pelvis around, increasing lordotic curve while driving and that sort of
thing) and also I can see that the issue is still affecting my posture
and the way I move (I sometimes walk differently than how I walked
before and can feel that I'm a little stooped over when I get up from a
sitting position --these sorts of small changes).
The only other time that I have felt this sort of sacroiliac joint
pain before was 8 to10 years ago for a few months after a somewhat hard
fall (three point landing flat on my sacrum and on my hands --which
might have also cracked up the pisiform bone[1] on my right hand because
it was also sore for quite a few weeks after that fall). On the other
hand, the two episodes mentioned in the previous paragraph were not
prompted by anything in particular (that I know of).
Anyways, I decided to give a chiropractor a shot to see if the
sacroiliac joint issue could be improved (I also told him, as somewhat
of an afterthought, that I have shoulder issues). I went to the same guy
who treated my grandmother for lower back pain just a few weeks ago. She
seemed to get a little bit worse after every treatment but I don't feel
that should necessarily disqualify the guy from consideration since
different problems might be addressed optimally by different tools and
the effectiveness of a given tool might differ when used in the context
of different problems (O.K., so maybe I'm an idiot).
He never said anything too outrageous but just some things that
might be a little questionable in the sense, not of me knowing that he
was wrong, but rather in the sense of me having questions about it. For
instance, he claimed that the ultrasound he used in preparation for the
manipulation had anti-inflammatory effects. This seemed to me rather odd
as it is my understanding that it (ultrasound --in the megahertz range,
IIRC) is meant to produce localized warming (whereas I've always thought
that, though it may sometimes feel good on a sore spot, warmth is
pro-inflammatory due to it's vasodilating effects). I believe the main
purpose of the ultrasound device is to loosen up spinal musculature to
facilitate the manipulation (so it makes sense in this context). The
other thing I wondered about was his mention how of an endorphin release
in response to joint "cracking" (I can believe that as it can feel good)
had direct healing properties in the area (I would imagine that if one
was looking for substances that actually might directly promote healing
I imagine one would be mainly looking at pro-inflammatory cytokines and
that sort of thing --and only in the short term since inflammation,
obviously, has problems of its own). That seemed to me to be a little
goofy even though I can believe that it is very conceivable that it may
have such effects indirectly[2].
I did allow cervical manipulation (the one thing that chiropractors
do which could actually kill you --though the odds are very much in
favor of ending up not dead[3] at all) because I do have some degree of
neck soreness (this is probably the case more often than not). I
definitely was aware of the neck soreness after the manipulation because
it became more evident (otherwise, while some level of soreness might be
there it's usually not in mind). Range of motion was improved (in my
subjective assessment) but only for probably less than a day (not a big
surprise as this always seems to be, in my experience, an effect of
"cracking" a joint). It seemed like a somewhat brutal manipulation and
a bit scary (to actually be relaxed and allow this sort of thing goes
against every instinct).
Manipulation of the rest of the spine was also just a little bit
brutal (there's nothing gentle about it --no matter what anybody might
say). He seemed slightly frustrated the first time about not getting a
popping response (I knew that wasn't going to happen because I cracked
my own back on the waiting room --it's just something I tend to do
without even thinking about it and I wasn't trying to play any tricks on
him or anything like that). He claimed the back was "tight". Perhaps it
was.
And then there was the manipulation of the sacroiliac joint which is
what I realistically expected to be done (because joint
manipulation is what they do and my complaint was about sacroiliac joint
discomfort). This was quite brutal (I gather it's not something that is
meant to move a whole lot and thus it takes quite a bit to move it) and
I knew it would hurt (if it can cause discomfort when nobody is actually
trying to move things around in there, it only makes sense that pain
would be involved when someone tries to tinker with it on purpose --the
only question was how much it would hurt). Indeed the manipulation did
hurt a bit but it was nothing unbearable (though it was scary
due to the anticipation of pain and the brutal twisting-pulling nature
of the manipulation itself). My main concern was that the aftermath of
this manipulation of the sacroiliac joint might be another episode where
I end in sufficient pain as to not to be able to get out of bed.
Fortunately, this did not happen but the area did become more sensitive.
I can't imagine how such a manipulation on an area that is the source of
discomfort the way this was would not result in some degree of
additional discomfort in the short term so I am weary of calling it a
negative outcome yet.
I did have a second session which developed similarly to the first
(he commented on the sacroiliac joint being looser but nowhere near
where it should be mobility wise). The after-effects where like the
first only more so (there's no doubt now that there's additional
discomfort). I am more inclined to call the after-effects a negative
outcome (I guess I have some expectation that I should have seen some
sort of positive effects by now).
I do have a third appointment --though he is, fortunately, on
vacation next week so I'll have more time to recover from the trauma.
I'll see what happens then (I'm definitely not doing the regular
adjustment routine which some chiropractors are so fond off). I am
cautiously pessimistic.
It is of some interest to note that had I gone to a chiropractor
when the issue was in an acute phase (the two episodes I mentioned) I
might very well have attributed any diminution in pain (which would have
happened anyway --assuming no effect) to the chiropractic treatment.
August Pamplona
1· That would be the little movable bone that sticks out a little bit on
the hand on the pinky side distal to the pinky (I had to look up that
bone because anatomy was so many years ago).
2 · Muscle spasm is a natural response to injury which immobilizes the
injured area. I reckon that, when the spasm itself becomes the irritant,
it can become self-perpetuation (it becomes a positive feedback loop).
If the underlying injury condition is already resolved, something which
may temporarily relieve the feedback of self perpetuating irritation
(such as this supposed endorphin release) could potentially disrupt this
cycle.
3 · Or of ending significantly injured (I would also assume that the
odds here would also be strongly in your favor in this respect). The
dangerous issue is with the rare occurrence of dissections of the
vertebral artery wall.
--
The waterfall in Java is not wet.
- omegazero2003 on m.f.w.
a.a. # 1811 apatriot #20 Eater of smut
The address in this message's 'From' field, in accordance with
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| User: "John" |
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| Title: Re: So I tried a chiropractor. |
06 Jun 2004 07:41:41 PM |
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"August Pamplona" <cosmicaug@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:2iesbfFmh79pU1@uni-berlin.de...
Some may know that I don't hold much stock in various claims often
associated with chiropractic. However, I have been open to the
possibility that they might be good (perhaps even very good --possibly
even the treatment modality of choice) at dealing with a range of
musculo-skeletal issues (what these musculo-skeletal issues are, I do
not know --though lower back pain is popularly believed to be one such
issue). IOW, while I believe the entity known as the chiropractic
subluxation is quite probably fictitious (in the same category as
invisible pink unicorns --as far as I'm concerned) and while I don't
believe anybody is likely to ever be cured of deafness by a swift
manipulation of the cervical spine (anecdote of the founder) or any of
the nonsense many chiropractors routinely promote, I think it is
possible that some musculo-skeletal issues might just be "their cup of
tea".
I would recommend a physiotherapist.
.
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| User: "Seann" |
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| Title: Re: So I tried a chiropractor. |
09 Jun 2004 01:52:09 PM |
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Funny, I had a back problem, and my physiotherapist recommended a
chiropractor. I went, and after several treatments noticed a mild
improvement. He was pretty good in the sense that he was well versed on
muscular-skeletal issues but also very good in orthopedics, incorporating
exercise and massage as part of treatment.
I eventually had the problem fixed later by someone else but that's another
story.
Shawn
"John" <junk@junk.com> wrote in message
news:ca0dk5$1i46$1@otis.netspace.net.au...
"August Pamplona" <cosmicaug@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:2iesbfFmh79pU1@uni-berlin.de...
Some may know that I don't hold much stock in various claims often
associated with chiropractic. However, I have been open to the
possibility that they might be good (perhaps even very good --possibly
even the treatment modality of choice) at dealing with a range of
musculo-skeletal issues (what these musculo-skeletal issues are, I do
not know --though lower back pain is popularly believed to be one such
issue). IOW, while I believe the entity known as the chiropractic
subluxation is quite probably fictitious (in the same category as
invisible pink unicorns --as far as I'm concerned) and while I don't
believe anybody is likely to ever be cured of deafness by a swift
manipulation of the cervical spine (anecdote of the founder) or any of
the nonsense many chiropractors routinely promote, I think it is
possible that some musculo-skeletal issues might just be "their cup of
tea".
I would recommend a physiotherapist.
.
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| User: "John" |
|
| Title: Re: So I tried a chiropractor. |
10 Jun 2004 01:16:36 AM |
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"Seann" <smcpherson75@hotmail.ca> wrote in message
news:t%Ixc.615$cwr.295@news04.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com...
Funny, I had a back problem, and my physiotherapist recommended a
chiropractor. I went, and after several treatments noticed a mild
improvement. He was pretty good in the sense that he was well versed on
muscular-skeletal issues but also very good in orthopedics, incorporating
exercise and massage as part of treatment.
I eventually had the problem fixed later by someone else but that's
another
story.
So chiropractors tend to use a variety of non-chiropractic methods that may
actually work.
.
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| User: "Eris" |
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| Title: Re: So I tried a chiropractor. |
09 Jun 2004 01:59:40 PM |
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On Wed, 09 Jun 2004 18:52:09 GMT, "Seann" <smcpherson75@hotmail.ca>
wrote:
Funny, I had a back problem, and my physiotherapist recommended a
chiropractor. I went, and after several treatments noticed a mild
improvement. He was pretty good in the sense that he was well versed on
muscular-skeletal issues but also very good in orthopedics, incorporating
exercise and massage as part of treatment.
I eventually had the problem fixed later by someone else but that's another
story.
My exwife cured her excruciating back pain by reciting "My back does
not hurt, I want to kill Eris"
Seriously, I bought her a book that says most back pain comes from
anger.
.
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| User: "Mike Painter" |
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| Title: Re: So I tried a chiropractor. |
05 Jun 2004 09:28:49 PM |
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"August Pamplona" <cosmicaug@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:2iesbfFmh79pU1@uni-berlin.de...
Find a good masseuse or even better somebody who has been doing almost any
martial art for ten or twenty years.
They do everything a chiro can do - but gently.
.
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| User: "Eric Pepke" |
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| Title: Re: So I tried a chiropractor. |
06 Jun 2004 12:27:34 AM |
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"Mike Painter" <mddotpainter@sbcglobal.net> wrote in message news:<Bjvwc.6054$yh1.4824@newssvr27.news.prodigy.com>...
"August Pamplona" <cosmicaug@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:2iesbfFmh79pU1@uni-berlin.de...
Find a good masseuse or even better somebody who has been doing almost any
martial art for ten or twenty years.
They do everything a chiro can do - but gently.
And they don't claim to be able to cure stomach cancer with tobacco-and-coffee
enemas (John Wayne) or claim to be able to cure gall-bladder problems by
massaging the gall bladder (Andy Warhol). Nor do they tell parents that if their
childrens' spines are aligned properly they don't need vaccines.
.
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| User: "Mike Painter" |
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| Title: Re: So I tried a chiropractor. |
06 Jun 2004 01:52:37 AM |
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"Eric Pepke" <epepke@acm.org> wrote in message
news:ef37f531.0406052127.bf2ff2f@posting.google.com...
"Mike Painter" <mddotpainter@sbcglobal.net> wrote in message
news:<Bjvwc.6054$yh1.4824@newssvr27.news.prodigy.com>...
"August Pamplona" <cosmicaug@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:2iesbfFmh79pU1@uni-berlin.de...
Find a good masseuse or even better somebody who has been doing almost
any
martial art for ten or twenty years.
They do everything a chiro can do - but gently.
And they don't claim to be able to cure stomach cancer with
tobacco-and-coffee
enemas (John Wayne) or claim to be able to cure gall-bladder problems by
massaging the gall bladder (Andy Warhol). Nor do they tell parents that
if their
childrens' spines are aligned properly they don't need vaccines.
The alleged ability to adjust the atlas is one of my favorite claims.
.
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| User: "August Pamplona" |
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| Title: Re: So I tried a chiropractor. |
05 Jun 2004 10:46:11 PM |
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In news:Bjvwc.6054$yh1.4824@newssvr27.news.prodigy.com,
Mike Painter <mddotpainter@sbcglobal.net> typed:
"August Pamplona" <cosmicaug@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:2iesbfFmh79pU1@uni-berlin.de...
Find a good masseuse or even better somebody who has been doing
I don't think you are correct. A masseuse shouldn't be doing real
joint manipulations of the sort a chiropractor does (if at all). Gently
or otherwise.
almost any martial art for ten or twenty years.
That I definitely do not buy into (specially when you word it as
"almost any"). In judo, for instance, there are reportedly kuatsu-waza
or kappo-waza techniques ("resucitation" techniques) but I don't know
that anybody even teaches this sort of stuff (and I'd be skeptical of at
least some of it, anyways) much less teach massage or joint manipulation
techniques for therapeutic purposes. Now there are also disciplines out
there like Hakko-Ryu Jujutsu where there actually exists a healing
component of the discipline (of which I'd also be skeptical) but I would
guess that this would hardly be representative of "almost any" martial
art.
They do everything a chiro can do - but gently.
August Pamplona
--
The waterfall in Java is not wet.
- omegazero2003 on m.f.w.
a.a. # 1811 apatriot #20 Eater of smut
The address in this message's 'From' field, in accordance with
individual.net's TOS, is real. However, almost all messages
reaching this address are deleted without human intervention.
In other words, if you e-mail me there, I will not receive your message.
To make sure that e-mail messages actually reach me,
make sure that my e-mail address is not hot.
.
|
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| User: "Kermit" |
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| Title: Re: So I tried a chiropractor. |
09 Jun 2004 05:24:28 PM |
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"August Pamplona" <cosmicaug@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:<2ifidfFlsq4pU1@uni-berlin.de>...
In news:Bjvwc.6054$yh1.4824@newssvr27.news.prodigy.com,
Mike Painter <mddotpainter@sbcglobal.net> typed:
"August Pamplona" <cosmicaug@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:2iesbfFmh79pU1@uni-berlin.de...
Find a good masseuse or even better somebody who has been doing
I don't think you are correct. A masseuse shouldn't be doing real
joint manipulations of the sort a chiropractor does (if at all). Gently
or otherwise.
almost any martial art for ten or twenty years.
That I definitely do not buy into (specially when you word it as
"almost any"). In judo, for instance, there are reportedly kuatsu-waza
or kappo-waza techniques ("resucitation" techniques) but I don't know
that anybody even teaches this sort of stuff (and I'd be skeptical of at
least some of it, anyways) much less teach massage or joint manipulation
techniques for therapeutic purposes. Now there are also disciplines out
there like Hakko-Ryu Jujutsu where there actually exists a healing
component of the discipline (of which I'd also be skeptical) but I would
guess that this would hardly be representative of "almost any" martial
art.
I concur. I have studied several martial arts and visited many other
schools; I have never seen any teaching healing arts (altho most speak
of a healing complementary tradition "back in the old country").
And considering how much silliness I have seen in the arts, I would
also be cautious about some claims for healing techniques of joint
manipulation and pressure points.
I would advise a real physical therapist, after a visit to a medical
doctor. If you are a fellow Yankee and do not have decent medical
insurance, eat some pain-killers, get a job that covers your medical
needs well, *then see a doctor and physical therapist.
They do everything a chiro can do - but gently.
August Pamplona
--
The waterfall in Java is not wet.
- omegazero2003 on m.f.w.
a.a. # 1811 apatriot #20 Eater of smut
The address in this message's 'From' field, in accordance with
individual.net's TOS, is real. However, almost all messages
reaching this address are deleted without human intervention.
In other words, if you e-mail me there, I will not receive your message.
To make sure that e-mail messages actually reach me,
make sure that my e-mail address is not hot.
Kermit
.
|
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| User: "August Pamplona" |
|
| Title: Re: So I tried a chiropractor. |
10 Jun 2004 05:49:09 PM |
|
|
In news:2b38d8c5.0406091424.7d607322@posting.google.com,
Kermit <unrestrained_hand@hotmail.com> typed:
"August Pamplona" <cosmicaug@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:<2ifidfFlsq4pU1@uni-berlin.de>...
In news:Bjvwc.6054$yh1.4824@newssvr27.news.prodigy.com,
Mike Painter <mddotpainter@sbcglobal.net> typed:
"August Pamplona" <cosmicaug@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:2iesbfFmh79pU1@uni-berlin.de...
Find a good masseuse or even better somebody who has been doing
I don't think you are correct. A masseuse shouldn't be doing real
joint manipulations of the sort a chiropractor does (if at all).
Gently or otherwise.
almost any martial art for ten or twenty years.
That I definitely do not buy into (specially when you word it as
"almost any"). In judo, for instance, there are reportedly
kuatsu-waza or kappo-waza techniques ("resucitation" techniques) but
I don't know that anybody even teaches this sort of stuff (and I'd
be skeptical of at least some of it, anyways) much less teach
massage or joint manipulation techniques for therapeutic purposes.
Now there are also disciplines out there like Hakko-Ryu Jujutsu
where there actually exists a healing component of the discipline
(of which I'd also be skeptical) but I would guess that this would
hardly be representative of "almost any" martial art.
I concur. I have studied several martial arts and visited many other
schools; I have never seen any teaching healing arts (altho most speak
of a healing complementary tradition "back in the old country").
And considering how much silliness I have seen in the arts, I would
also be cautious about some claims for healing techniques of joint
manipulation and pressure points.
I would advise a real physical therapist, after a visit to a medical
doctor. If you are a fellow Yankee
I am.
and do not have decent medical
insurance,
I don't at the moment.
eat some pain-killers,
I won't at the moment as pain isn't currently a great issue at the
moment (for now) and I have a propensity for not taking medication which
I consider unnecesary in any event. My concerns, for the most part
(exclusing the likelyhood of further acute episodes), are other than
pain (disrupted function as a result of postural changes resulting from
the issue and progression, in the longer term, of the issue into
something more problematic --as well as a possible effect on athletic
performance if I may choose to take up certain sports as a hobby).
get a job that covers your medical
needs well,
Working on that one on a couple of fronts.
*then see a doctor and physical therapist.
They do everything a chiro can do - but gently.
August Pamplona
--
The waterfall in Java is not wet.
- omegazero2003 on m.f.w.
a.a. # 1811 apatriot #20 Eater of smut
The address in this message's 'From' field, in accordance with
individual.net's TOS, is real. However, almost all messages
reaching this address are deleted without human intervention.
In other words, if you e-mail me there, I will not receive your
message.
To make sure that e-mail messages actually reach me,
make sure that my e-mail address is not hot.
Kermit
Hey, didn't you use to be some sort of a file transfer protocol?
August Pamplona
--
The waterfall in Java is not wet.
- omegazero2003 on m.f.w.
a.a. # 1811 apatriot #20 Eater of smut
The address in this message's 'From' field, in accordance with
individual.net's TOS, is real. However, almost all messages
reaching this address are deleted without human intervention.
In other words, if you e-mail me there, I will not receive your message.
To make sure that e-mail messages actually reach me,
make sure that my e-mail address is not hot.
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