| Topic: |
Religions > Atheism |
| User: |
"maff" |
| Date: |
30 Sep 2005 03:39:33 PM |
| Object: |
Societies worse off 'when they have God on their side' |
Societies worse off 'when they have God on their side'
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2-1798944,00.html
By Ruth Gledhill, Religion Correspondent
RELIGIOUS belief can cause damage to a society, contributing towards
high murder rates, abortion, sexual promiscuity and suicide, according
to research published today.
According to the study, belief in and worship of God are not only
unnecessary for a healthy society but may actually contribute to social
problems.
Gregory Paul
http://news.google.com/news?num=100&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&q=+%22Gregory+Paul%22&sa=N&tab=gn
http://www.google.com/search?num=100&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&q=+%22Gregory+Paul%22&sa=N&tab=nw
http://www.google.com/search?num=100&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&q=+%22Gregory+Paul%22&sa=N&tab=wd&cat=gwd%2FTop
http://groups.google.com/groups?as_epq=Gregory%20Paul&safe=images&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&as_scoring=d&lr=&num=100&hl=en
Imagined sensibilities
http://www.guardian.co.uk/Columnists/Column/0,5673,1578261,00.html
In the wake of 7/7, London does not need art to tiptoe around the
sensibilities of those who could possibly be affronted
Stuart Jeffries
Monday September 26, 2005
The Guardian
The conceptual artist John Latham has often had an adversarial
relationship with books. He and his students once famously chewed up
Clement Greenberg's Art and Culture, spat the masticated pieces into a
phial and returned the book thus to St Martin's School of Art library.
He disagreed so much with Greenberg's formalism and his view that
British art was too tasteful that he ate the critic's words. Today the
phial is at MoMa in New York, part of a work called Still and Chew: Art
and Culture 1966-1967.
Stuart Jeffries
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.atheism/msg/f99b0986df6b1047
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: Societies worse off 'when they have God on their side' |
30 Sep 2005 04:51:42 PM |
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The whole study embodies the logical fallacy (I forget the Latin
expression) whereby the simultaneous occurrence of two events is
falsely assumed to result from a causal relationship between the two
events. To support its claims, the study would have to show that
religious belief CAUSES the specified social problems.
First, correlation does not equal causation. Second, let's compare
rates of violent crime rather than simply murder. Third, let's look at
unemployment and birth rates. Fourth, how would Europe and Japan have
fared during the Cold War if the United States didn't pick up a lot of
their defense tab and had left them to fend for themselves against
international communism?
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| User: "Greg G." |
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| Title: Re: Societies worse off 'when they have God on their side' |
30 Sep 2005 05:51:42 PM |
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wrote:
The whole study embodies the logical fallacy (I forget the Latin
expression) whereby the simultaneous occurrence of two events is
falsely assumed to result from a causal relationship between the two
events.
But it is not an occurrence of two events. It is the simultaneous
occurrence of several events showing a trend. Each country was
considered to be a separate event and it was noted that different
states in the US showed the same pattern.
To support its claims, the study would have to show that
religious belief CAUSES the specified social problems.
At any rate, the point was made in the third paragraph:
The study counters the view of believers that religion
is necessary to provide the moral and ethical foundations
of a healthy society.
and the last two paragraphs:
"The non-religious, proevolution democracies contradict
the dictum that a society cannot enjoy good conditions
unless most citizens ardently believe in a moral creator.
"The widely held fear that a Godless citizenry must
experience societal disaster is therefore refuted."
First, correlation does not equal causation.
Do you have a better explanation for the correlation?
Second, let's compare
rates of violent crime rather than simply murder.
From http://www.answers.com/topic/crime-in-canada
Compared to the United States Canada has far lower
rates of violent crime such as murder, assault,
and rape. Through the 1990s, the homicide rate in
the United States was three times higher than it was
in Canada, while the American rate for aggravated
assault was double the Canadian rate. The rate for
robberies was 65% higher in the United States.
and
Canada's crime rate is close to the average of
Western Europe. Canada has a fair bit more crime
than Japan. Canada has a lower crime rate than
almost every country in the developing world.
Third, let's look at
unemployment and birth rates.
This seems to be the logical fallacy known as a "non sequitur".
Unemployment is higher in Europe yet they don't have excessive crime
due to poverty. The birth rate is higher in the US than any European
country except Ireland.
Fourth, how would Europe and Japan have
fared during the Cold War if the United States didn't pick up a lot of
their defense tab and had left them to fend for themselves against
international communism?
How would Europe and Japan have fared had their infrastructures not
been decimated by WWII? How would the US have fared without an overseas
market? How would we have fared if Communism had taken them over? How
would Napolean have fared if he had a B-52 bomber?
--
Greg G.
Be uneconomical! It's good for the economy.
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| User: "Robert J. Kolker" |
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| Title: Re: Societies worse off 'when they have God on their side' |
02 Oct 2005 03:09:31 AM |
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wrote:
The whole study embodies the logical fallacy (I forget the Latin
expression) whereby the simultaneous occurrence of two events is
falsely assumed to result from a causal relationship between the two
events.
Post hoc ergo propter hoc. After this, therefore because of this.
Bob Kolker
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| User: "Noone Inparticular" |
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| Title: Re: Societies worse off 'when they have God on their side' |
30 Sep 2005 05:08:08 PM |
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wrote:
The whole study embodies the logical fallacy (I forget the Latin
expression) whereby the simultaneous occurrence of two events is
falsely assumed to result from a causal relationship between the two
events. To support its claims, the study would have to show that
religious belief CAUSES the specified social problems.
First, correlation does not equal causation.
Good grief. Read the damn paper;
"This study is a first, brief look at an important subject that has
been almost entirely neglected by social scientists. The primary intent
is to present basic correlations of the elemental data. Some
conclusions that can be gleaned from the plots are outlined. This is
not an attempt to present a definitive study that establishes cause
versus effect between religiosity, secularism and societal health. It
is hoped that these original correlations and results will spark future
research and debate on the issue."
Second, let's compare
rates of violent crime rather than simply murder.
Ok, do it. He gave you the sources.
Third, let's look at
unemployment and birth rates. Fourth, how would Europe and Japan have
fared during the Cold War if the United States didn't pick up a lot of
their defense tab and had left them to fend for themselves against
international communism?
What does this have to do with the subject at hand?
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: Societies worse off 'when they have God on their side' |
01 Oct 2005 11:50:05 PM |
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wrote:
The whole study embodies the logical fallacy (I forget the Latin
expression) whereby the simultaneous occurrence of two events is
falsely assumed to result from a causal relationship between the two
events. To support its claims, the study would have to show that
religious belief CAUSES the specified social problems.
First, correlation does not equal causation. Second, let's compare
rates of violent crime rather than simply murder. Third, let's look at
unemployment and birth rates. Fourth, how would Europe and Japan have
fared during the Cold War if the United States didn't pick up a lot of
their defense tab and had left them to fend for themselves against
international communism?
The point of the study was not to show that a high degree of
religiousity _causes_ crime, etc., but to test the idea that a high
degree of religiousity causes a decrease in crime and other undesirable
social activities. Pro-religion folks are often trying to connect lack
of belief with all sorts of misbehavior, but in the past there has been
no actual data. Now there is some data.
I personally believe there are a lot of good things about religion, but
it doesn't look like getting people to behave better is one of them.
Eric Root
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| User: "Frank Sullivan" |
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| Title: Re: Societies worse off 'when they have God on their side' |
02 Oct 2005 12:43:23 AM |
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wrote:
Raymond.Ambrosini@gmail.com wrote:
The whole study embodies the logical fallacy (I forget the Latin
expression) whereby the simultaneous occurrence of two events is
falsely assumed to result from a causal relationship between the two
events. To support its claims, the study would have to show that
religious belief CAUSES the specified social problems.
First, correlation does not equal causation. Second, let's compare
rates of violent crime rather than simply murder. Third, let's look at
unemployment and birth rates. Fourth, how would Europe and Japan have
fared during the Cold War if the United States didn't pick up a lot of
their defense tab and had left them to fend for themselves against
international communism?
The point of the study was not to show that a high degree of
religiousity _causes_ crime, etc., but to test the idea that a high
degree of religiousity causes a decrease in crime and other undesirable
social activities. Pro-religion folks are often trying to connect lack
of belief with all sorts of misbehavior, but in the past there has been
no actual data. Now there is some data.
I personally believe there are a lot of good things about religion, but
it doesn't look like getting people to behave better is one of them.
Eric Root
I live in the midst of about 12 million Mormons, and I can definitely
say that, although I disagree with their religion and some of what
comes with it, they are definitely a positive force in the community
overall. Perhaps some religions foster good behavior better than
others. When I lived in Boston (which is almost entirely Catholic and
Jewish -- I was born Catholic myself), the people there seemed
apathetic about their religion, and there also seemed to be a lot more
misbehaving.
But then I think of some places in the South and Midwest, where I
admittly have never been, and it seems to me that religion there has an
overall negative effect. That's an opinion based on ignorance, though,
having never been there myself.
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| User: "Mark K. Bilbo" |
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| Title: Re: Societies worse off 'when they have God on their side' |
01 Oct 2005 05:37:22 AM |
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In <1128117102.423815.108450@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com>,
Raymond.Ambrosini@gmail.com wrote:
The whole study embodies the logical fallacy (I forget the Latin
expression) whereby the simultaneous occurrence of two events is falsely
assumed to result from a causal relationship between the two events. To
support its claims, the study would have to show that religious belief
CAUSES the specified social problems. First, correlation does not equal
causation. Second, let's compare rates of violent crime rather than simply
murder. Third, let's look at unemployment and birth rates. Fourth, how
would Europe and Japan have fared during the Cold War if the United States
didn't pick up a lot of their defense tab and had left them to fend for
themselves against international communism?
And yet the religious--particularly Christians in the US--invite us to
believe correlation is causality all the time, attributing (ironically
enough) the material wealth and power of the US to the presence of
Christianity.
--
Mark K. Bilbo
--------------------------------------------------
"We're angry, Mr. President, and we'll be angry long
after our beloved city and surrounding parishes have
been pumped dry. Our people deserved rescuing.
Many who could have been were not. That's to the
government's shame."
http://makeashorterlink.com/?F2D511CBB
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| User: "Frank Sullivan" |
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| Title: Re: Societies worse off 'when they have God on their side' |
02 Oct 2005 12:39:17 AM |
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I was once told by someone that every nation that turns their back on
God gets destroyed. Now, I imagine if you compiled a list of every
nation that ever lived, and made some sort of mendelian diagram with
one column being "destroyed" and the other column being "not
destroyed", and one row being "turned back on God" and the other column
being "did not turn back on God", then what you'd get is a somewhat
even distribution of countries in each cell, and not anything that you
could recognize as a pattern.
But, unfortunately I know nothing about history and so I didn't know
what to say.
I could have mentioned that Japan is almost entirely non-Christian, and
has been forever, and yet they are still flourishing. He could simply
point out, though, that Japan was bombed by the United States during
WWII and perhaps it was because they were persecuting Christians at the
time.
And therein lies the problem with arguments like that. What does it
mean to be "destroyed" and what does it mean to "turn your back on
God?" Did they United States do something to offend God, for which he
guided Japan to attack Pearl Harbor? I doubt you'll get any of them to
admit that the United States in the 40's is an example of a country
that turned it's back on God. However, when you bring up Pearl Harbor
they might try to think of a reason. Or, perhaps they will simply say
that the Pearl Harbor attack did not "destroy" the United States, and
therefore can't be used as an example. But then, that brings us back to
Japan. The attacks on Tokyo, Hiroshima, and Nagasaki did not "destroy"
Japan either, and Japan still ain't Christian.
Perhaps Japan is considered inoffensive by God because they aren't
promiscuous nor homosexual, like those dirty Greeks were (sarcasm). I'm
sure there are a lot of ad hoc excuses that one could come up with for
why we don't see such a pattern as would be implied by this claim.
Perhaps those ad hoc excuses are true, even, but there would be no way
to find out.
There has been a lot of talk lately about how these recent hurricanes
could be God's vengeance against some parts of the country considered
to be wicked by Christians. Of course, these hurricanes have perfectly
feasible natural explanations, and there is again no such pattern of
hurricanes attacking only the wicked. So how could we know that they
were an act of God, even if they were?
So, yeah. Christians *do* often try to assert that there is not only a
correlation, but a definite causation, to be found in catastrophes like
Hurricane Katrina and the Fall of Ancient Greece (his words, not mine).
But, there is no pattern. Bad things happen to good people and good
things happen to bad people. C'est la vie. Unless God descends from on
high to tell us which events were the result of his deliberate
interventions, then one could hardly know for sure and I'm a little bit
disillusioned with people who would see catasrophes like Katrina as an
opportunity to advance their religion.
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| User: "Earle Jones" |
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| Title: Re: Societies worse off 'when they have God on their side' |
07 Oct 2005 07:51:40 PM |
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In article <1128231557.528058.61970@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com>,
"Frank Sullivan" <gimbal.locked@gmail.com> wrote:
I was once told by someone that every nation that turns their back on
God gets destroyed. Now, I imagine if you compiled a list of every
nation that ever lived, and made some sort of mendelian diagram with
one column being "destroyed" and the other column being "not
destroyed", and one row being "turned back on God" and the other column
being "did not turn back on God", then what you'd get is a somewhat
even distribution of countries in each cell, and not anything that you
could recognize as a pattern.
But, unfortunately I know nothing about history and so I didn't know
what to say.
I could have mentioned that Japan is almost entirely non-Christian, and
has been forever, and yet they are still flourishing. He could simply
point out, though, that Japan was bombed by the United States during
WWII and perhaps it was because they were persecuting Christians at the
time.
***
At what time did Japan persecute Christians? They persecuted the
hell out of the Chinese and Koreans, but there have never been that
many Christians to persecute in Japan. Even today, there are fewer
than 2% Christians.
***
earle
*
God does not destroy Japan because it is a civilized country.
def: 'Civilized country':
1. Good public transportation
2. Strong gun control
3. No tipping.
ej
*
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| User: "wbarwell" |
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| Title: Re: Societies worse off 'when they have God on their side' |
07 Oct 2005 11:43:07 PM |
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Earle Jones wrote:
At what time did Japan persecute Christians? They persecuted
the hell out of the Chinese and Koreans, but there have never
been that
many Christians to persecute in Japan. Even today, there are
fewer than 2% Christians.
After the Jesuits tried to christianize Japan, there was a
reaction to Western imperalism in Asia and Christians, seen as
a dangerous 5th column were severely persecuted in Japan.
--
The official spokesman of the Foxes said
today that investigation into what happened
to the henhouse may be needed.
Cheerful Charlie
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| User: "Rodjk #613" |
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| Title: Re: Societies worse off 'when they have God on their side' |
07 Oct 2005 11:02:41 PM |
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Earle Jones wrote:
In article <1128231557.528058.61970@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com>,
"Frank Sullivan" <gimbal.locked@gmail.com> wrote:
I was once told by someone that every nation that turns their back on
God gets destroyed. Now, I imagine if you compiled a list of every
nation that ever lived, and made some sort of mendelian diagram with
one column being "destroyed" and the other column being "not
destroyed", and one row being "turned back on God" and the other column
being "did not turn back on God", then what you'd get is a somewhat
even distribution of countries in each cell, and not anything that you
could recognize as a pattern.
But, unfortunately I know nothing about history and so I didn't know
what to say.
I could have mentioned that Japan is almost entirely non-Christian, and
has been forever, and yet they are still flourishing. He could simply
point out, though, that Japan was bombed by the United States during
WWII and perhaps it was because they were persecuting Christians at the
time.
***
At what time did Japan persecute Christians? They persecuted the
hell out of the Chinese and Koreans, but there have never been that
many Christians to persecute in Japan. Even today, there are fewer
than 2% Christians.
***
earle
*
God does not destroy Japan because it is a civilized country.
As I recall, there was a flourishing christian population in Hiroshima
in the mid 1940's. It was not there by the end of the 40's though...
;)
Rodjk #613
def: 'Civilized country':
1. Good public transportation
2. Strong gun control
3. No tipping.
ej
*
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| User: "maff" |
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| Title: Re: Societies worse off 'when they have God on their side' |
07 Oct 2005 09:33:18 PM |
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Earle Jones wrote:
In article <1128231557.528058.61970@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com>,
"Frank Sullivan" <gimbal.locked@gmail.com> wrote:
I was once told by someone that every nation that turns their back on
God gets destroyed. Now, I imagine if you compiled a list of every
nation that ever lived, and made some sort of mendelian diagram with
one column being "destroyed" and the other column being "not
destroyed", and one row being "turned back on God" and the other column
being "did not turn back on God", then what you'd get is a somewhat
even distribution of countries in each cell, and not anything that you
could recognize as a pattern.
But, unfortunately I know nothing about history and so I didn't know
what to say.
I could have mentioned that Japan is almost entirely non-Christian, and
has been forever, and yet they are still flourishing. He could simply
point out, though, that Japan was bombed by the United States during
WWII and perhaps it was because they were persecuting Christians at the
time.
***
At what time did Japan persecute Christians? They persecuted the
hell out of the Chinese and Koreans, but there have never been that
many Christians to persecute in Japan. Even today, there are fewer
than 2% Christians.
***
CHRISTIANITY IN JAPAN
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/08297a.htm
earle
*
God does not destroy Japan because it is a civilized country.
def: 'Civilized country':
1. Good public transportation
2. Strong gun control
3. No tipping.
ej
*
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| User: "Christopher A. Lee" |
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| Title: Re: Societies worse off 'when they have God on their side' |
01 Oct 2005 08:12:02 AM |
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On Sat, 01 Oct 2005 05:37:22 -0500, "Mark K. Bilbo"
<alt-atheism@org.webmaster> wrote:
In <1128117102.423815.108450@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com>,
Raymond.Ambrosini@gmail.com wrote:
The whole study embodies the logical fallacy (I forget the Latin
expression) whereby the simultaneous occurrence of two events is falsely
assumed to result from a causal relationship between the two events. To
support its claims, the study would have to show that religious belief
CAUSES the specified social problems. First, correlation does not equal
causation. Second, let's compare rates of violent crime rather than simply
murder. Third, let's look at unemployment and birth rates. Fourth, how
would Europe and Japan have fared during the Cold War if the United States
didn't pick up a lot of their defense tab and had left them to fend for
themselves against international communism?
And yet the religious--particularly Christians in the US--invite us to
believe correlation is causality all the time, attributing (ironically
enough) the material wealth and power of the US to the presence of
Christianity.
And as the decline gets worse they'll blame anybody but themselves.
Who do you imagine the scapegoats will be? Especially when they blame
natural disasters as God's punishment on the country for atheists,
liberals, gays, evolutionists etc.
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| User: "Matthew Isleb" |
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| Title: Re: Societies worse off 'when they have God on their side' |
30 Sep 2005 10:26:06 PM |
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On Fri, 30 Sep 2005 14:51:42 -0700, Raymond.Ambrosini wrote:
The whole study embodies the logical fallacy (I forget the Latin
expression) whereby the simultaneous occurrence of two events is falsely
assumed to result from a causal relationship between the two events.
Well, if you had READ the study you would have noted that throughout the
whole thing they made it quite clear that there was merely a correlation
and not necessarily causation. Just about every paragraph said it at least
once. There was no logical fallacy. Next time try reading before you
respond.
That said, the correlations were pretty dramatic. How do you explain why
the most religious democracies experience the most homocides,
abortions, teen pregnancy, etc? The only thing that DIDN'T correlate with
a religious society was suicide.
To
support its claims, the study would have to show that religious belief
CAUSES the specified social problems.
Wait, you just said that they were making a logical falacy by claiming a
causal relationship. Make up your mind.
First, correlation does not equal
causation.
Duh! The study said this much. Did you read it?
Second, let's compare rates of violent crime rather than simply
murder.
I believe they did.
Third, let's look at unemployment and birth rates.
Why?
Fourth, how
would Europe and Japan have fared during the Cold War if the United States
didn't pick up a lot of their defense tab and had left them to fend for
themselves against international communism?
Irrelevent.
-matthew
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