"Rob Wilder" <ryd@bellsouth.net> wrote in
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"Llanzlan Klazmon" <Klazmon@llurdiaxorb.govt> wrote in message
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"Rob Wilder" <ryd@bellsouth.net> wrote in
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"wmech" <wmech@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
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Another totally illogical Biblical story is the story of creation.
It is obviously pure fiction

Biblically, god created the world 6,000 years ago. Scientific
evidence shows
the Universe, as we now know it, began almost 14 BILLION years ago.

Not true, this 6000 year old world was the opinion of a Bishop

Show where the bishop went wrong.

It was an opinion, he attempted to count the generations from Adam.
Man was created on the sixth day. So bilions of years passed before
the advent of man.

This is after the fact rationalisation. The authors of the bible meant a
day when they said a day. Your error is that you are trying to impose
modern scientific knowledge onto the beliefs of ancient tribal goat
herders.

In the Bible, the Universe is a firmament and the Earth is a fixed
(not to mention flat )

Not true, the earth is a filament. A *flat earth* is an
interpretation, actually
Isaiah 40:22 the Earth is refered to as a circle.

Still wrong. The earth is an oblate spheroid with a few small
wrinkles. In the ancient middle east the Earth was generally thought
to be a disk, which
is liklely the source of the above reference. The earliest known
reference to the earth being spherical was from the ancient Greeks,
who had deduced this from observations of the Earth's shadow falling
on the moon during lunar eclipses. Eventually the Greek mathematician
Eratosthenes obtained a fairly accurate measurement of the Earth's
radius.

I read that the ancient Greeks had come close to determining the
earths radius. There is a verse in one translation of the Bible in
which the earth is called a sphere.

I told you the specific Greek person who did this, it was Eratosthenes as
stated above. If the translation you referred to used the term sphere,
then it is a wrong translation. Prior to the Greeks figuring this out
people did know or believe that the earth was a sphere.

Planet and the Son, Moon and other planets revolve around the
earth. We now
KNOW the Earth revolves around the Son and the Universe is made up
of trillions of Stars and Planets of which our planetary system is
a very miniscule and unimportant part.

No problem!

Sure it's a problem.

I agree, so where is the problem?

The problem is that the book contradicts reality.

In the Bible the earth is created in the first day, before the Son,
Moon and
Stars.

No, the Universe (the heaven) was created the first day. "In the
beginning, God created the heaven and the earth. Genesis 1:1.

The earth didn't exist until the universe was 9 billion or so years
old.

The universe is believed to be approximately 14^9 years old, the
earth is 4,6^9 years old.

Yes and 14 minus 4.5 = 9.5. i.e over nine billion years as I told you
above. That is somewhat longer than a few days.

There was a beginning, which the Bible claimed before Science
discovered that the universe did in fact have a beginning, which F.
Hoyle labeled the Big Bang.

That is more or less true but many religious texts and myths tell
various stories about the origin of the earth. None of them tend to
agree with each
other and all of them are refuted because they are falsified by the
actual evidence of the real world.

The Biblical account of the beginning is the only one important to me.

You need to broaden your horizons.

Objective scientific evidence is that the Earth did not form until
nine BILLION years after the beginning of the present Universe and
after the formation of the Son, and many other stars.

Science has shown that the sun, the planets and their moons all
formed from the same materials. Our sun is a 2nd or 3rd generation
star.

{snip}

The Creation of the World

Genesis

In the beginning of creation, when God made heaven and earth, the
earth was
without form and void, with darkness over the face of the abyss,
and a mighty wind that swept over the surface of the waters. God
said, ¡®Let there
be light¡¯, and there was light; and God saw that the light was
good, and he
separated light from darkness. He called the light day, and the
darkness night. So evening came, and morning came, the first day.

The Son is known to have existed long before the Earth, therefore
the earth
was not created before the Son.

The earth and planets formed from the same dust cloud during the
same time. There was a time interval during the beginning of the
formation of the solar system that the earth was dark. This occured
before the nuclear fires of the sun ignited.

In the overall scale of things the earth and sun formed at close to
the same time if you are willing to accept a difference of several
million years as being the same time. Note that as was pointed out,
the universe had already been around for nine billion years or so by
this time.

The solar system is limited to the sun and its nine planets,
satellites etc. not the universe as a whole. So, a time interval
between the earliest formation of the earth and the igniting the
nuclear furnace probably existed.

Wrong. The Sun was already main sequence before the planets completed
their formation to more or less the condition they have today.

before the Sun went main sequence it was already putting out plenty of
light and heat, just from gravitational contraction of its' formation.

God said, ¡®Let there be a vault between the waters, to separate
water from
water. ¡¯So God made the vault, and separated the water under the
vault from
the water above it, and so it was; and God called the vault heaven.
Evening
came, and morning came, a second day.

Waters above could have been clouds.

No. That is not what was understood by the ancients who wrote this
story.

I don't believe the ancients were totally aware and understood
everything that was revealed.

Nothing was revealed. It is just a hodge podge of stories borrowed and
adapted from the other cultures of the region. The hebrews were the
ancient equivalent of modern day hill billies. They were ignorant goat
herders who picked up and distorted the myths and legends of the more
illustrious cultures surrounding them. The main two reasons these stories
are even heard of today is because they kept a strong cultural cohesion
despite centuries of oppression. The other reason is that a cult which
started of as a fusion of the Hebrews beliefs with hellenic philosophy
eventually was established as the state religion of the Roman Empire.

It is just a variation of the beliefs of many of the ancient middle
eastern
peoples.

In Biblical times the stars and sky beyond the Earth, Son, and Moon
was Heaven.

God said, ¡®Let the waters under heaven be gathered into one place,
so that
dry land may appear¡¯; and so it was. God called the dry land
earth, and the
gathering of the waters he called seas; and God saw that it was
good. Then God said, ¡®Let the earth produce fresh growth, let
there be on the earth plants bearing seed, fruit-trees bearing
fruit each with seed according to its kind. ¡¯So it was; the earth
yielded fresh growth, plants bearing seed according to their kind
and trees bearing fruit each with seed according to
its king; and God saw that it was good. Evening came, and morning
came, a third day.

And this good and loving God created animals that eat other animals
(and man) and poisonous plants and snakes that kill!

This kept fast reproducing animals in check.

MMM, I thought there was supposed to be no death prior to the fall.

Physical death yes, spiritual death no.

Cite chapter and verse.

Are you

sure you want to stick with that claim. Maybe the fall was necessary
to prevent the earth's ecology from collapsing under its' own weight.
LOL.

Som animals were given for food, according to the Bible, some
animals were not to be eaten. Split hoof animals as I recall.

So lions didn't eat split hoof animals in those days? What limited their
numbers LOL.

God said, ¡®Let there be lights in the vault of heaven to separate

day from
night, and let them serve as signs both for festivals and for
seasons and years. Let them also shine in the vault of heaven to
give light on earth. ¡¯So it was ; God made the two great lights,
the greater to govern the day and the lesser to govern the night;
and with them he made the stars. God put
these lights in the vault of heaven to give light on earth, to
govern day and night, and to separate light from darkness; and God
saw that it was good. Evening came, and morning came, a fourth day.

And God considered the stars beyond the Sun and MOON to be Heaven.
The Moon was not considered a reflection from the light of the Sun
but a lessor light.

The moon is reflected light, but this reflected light is the lesser
of the two.

The ancients who wrote the story did not know that. They thought that
the moon glowed of its' own accord.

There was a great deal they did not know.

God, said, ¡®Let the waters teem with countless living creatures,
and let birds fly above the earth across the vault of heaven. ¡¯god
then created the
great sea-monsters and all living creatures that move and swarm in
the waters, according to their kind, and every kind of bird; and
God saw that it
was good. So he blessed them and said, ¡®Be fruitful and increase,
fill the
waters of the seas; and let the birds increase on land. ¡¯Evening
came, and
morning came, a fifth day.

And this God create creatures of the Sea that kill and eat other
creatures including man.

It is necessary to have checks and balances.

Not for an omnipotent god.

He chose this.

In others words things are exactly as the god wanted them to be.

God said, ¡®Let the earth bring forth living creatures, according
to their kind:cattle, reptiles, and wild animals, all according to
their kind. ¡¯So it was; God made wild animals, cattle, and all
reptiles, each according to i
ts kind; and he saw that it was good. Then God said, ¡®Let us make
man it our image and likeness to rule the fish in the sea , the
birds of heaven, the cattle, all wild animals on earth, and all
reptiles that crawl upon the
earth. ¡¯So God created man in his own image; in the image of God
he created
him; male and female he created them. God blessed them and said to
them, ¡®Be fruitful and increase, fill the earth and subdue it,
rule over the fish
in the sea, the birds of heaven, and every living thing that moves
upon the
earth. ¡¯god also said, ¡®I give you all plants that bear seed
everywhere on
earth, and every tree bearing fruit which yields seed:they shall be
yours for food. All green plants I give for food to the wild
animals, to all the birds of heaven, and to all reptiles on earth,
every living creature. ¡¯So it was; and God saw all that he had
made, and it was very good. Evening came, and morning came, a sixth
day.

And God create animals that kill and eat other animals including
man.

Nature needs checks and balances.

Only if the god wanted it that way.

Thus heaven and earth were completed with al their mighty throng.
On the sixth day God completed all the work he had been doing, and
on the seventh day he ceased from all his work. God blessed the
seventh day and made it holy, because on that day he ceased from
all the work he had set himself to
do and rested.

Why would a thing that is not physical but spiritual, get tired and
need rest?

God rested from his work (his creation), there is not a single word
about getting tired. You placing your own intrepretation upon the
Bible!

Just as you put YOUR own interpretation on it.

Still there is nothing about getting tired.

It depends how you read the story. You rest because you are tired. No
other explanation is given.

If this creator is such a loving and caring guy, why does he permit
totally
innocent children to die at birth? Or worse, be born lacking
eyesight, a fully developed brain, deaf and dumb, missing limbs
etc.?

If you remember, God _rested_, He no longer takes a direct hand in
the day to day affairs. Nature and our choices and cause and effect
are responsible for whatever happens.

Nevertheless a god could have designed it to be otherwise. Since the
god of
the bible is said to be omnipotent and omniscient, it would have
known all the consequences and outcome of its' creation even before
it did the creating. That can only mean that it wanted things to be
exactly as they are, otherwise it would have created differently with
different outcomes.

Why are some born idiots and others with super intelligence?

You still expect God to take charge of day to day occurances.
Why?

Why not?

Why does this loving and caring god create Plagues, Tsunamis,
Tornadoes, Volcanic Eruptions, Wars, cancers and hundreds of
debilitating diseases and
serious body malfunctions that effect people indiscriminately
regardless of
their conduct or religious beliefs? Why does he permit millions of
both young and old to starve to death?

These afflict humans indiscriminately - young and old, atheists and
members
of all religious beliefs.

Why did this caring benevolent god create animals that need to eat
other animals to survive?

If there is a god that created the Universe, he is obviously not an
all-caring and benevolent god. The objective evidence is that, if
there is a
god creator, he has no concern about the welfare of the creatures
on Earth.

God according to the Bible, God saw that man was evil continully
doing evil. So it repented God that he had made man. Gen. 6: 5, 6

The god knew this before it had created man therefore man is exactly
as god
intended - there can be no repenting for a god as that would imply
that it had made an error.

IOW God turned his back upon the evil that his creation had become.
So this is why bad thing happen.

Impossible. That would imply that gods creation was faulty.

I believe God gave man free agency, the right to make choices.
These have consequences. Man excercized his right, therefore
he must live with the consequences of these choices.
God could have made man like robots without a will, governed
purely by instinct, but then man would be the same as the
the simplest insect. No mind, no will no thought of it's own.

Not at all. God being omnipotent could have made man in such a way that
only good was chosen without affecting free will. In fact a responsible
god would do just that.

Klazmon.

--
Bill