| Topic: |
Religions > Atheism |
| User: |
"" |
| Date: |
04 Jun 2006 09:40:03 PM |
| Object: |
Somewhere there is middle ground |
I understand where war comes from. I understand human compassion and
violence. It's just so damn funny I want to puke, honestly. Now I don't
know just how many people will read this and for that matter, it is
doubtful that I care. But after spending time reading the arguments of
atheist and theological debaters I've come to a simple conclusion.
You are all just worried you could be wrong. You both so desperately
want to be right you are willing to argue over these things, even
fight.
You want to talk about selfishness? You ever hear of the Fundementalist
Christians? These people will actively pray for you to burn in hell,
even though their OWN SCRIPTURE STATES QUITE CLEARLY AND RATHER
REPETIVELY that you should LOVE THY BROTHER. Freaking all of them,
regardless of their religion, race, country of origin, etc... Are you
really stupid enough to think that intelligent design would create
borders? Man created borders, put up walls and decided to isolate
himself. You pretend that Christians go to heaven because they are
good, but not all are. You say, "Well then they are not real
Christians." To which I say, correct. But guess what, you and your
entire organization has been invaded by these false christians, and
they are running the show. And like cattle to the slaughter, you follow
them without question because you have 'faith'.
And for you atheists, what is so wrong with the unexplainable? I truly
sympathize with the fact that once you've seen something, you want to
know what caused it. We are naturally curious people. But if you've
seen Bruce Lee knock a man twelve feet with a one-inch punch through a
foot of padding, or seen a Shaolin monk create fire from nothing, well
you come to understand that SOME THINGS, JUST SOME GOD DAMNED THINGS,
require more than a meter to guage. Science tells us that time and
space are compressed together, and so we are all made up of it. But let
me ask this; if my body according to science technically contains more
space than matter, that is the space between atoms, then why can I not
walk through walls? How can I type on this keyboard? Or better yet? Why
do I formulate hypothoses when others are willing to be brainwashed by
their televisions? Hey, why can't you create a unified theory? Having
trouble explaining gravity are you? You come up with explinations, but
you still don't understand it so quit pretending you do. I said stop!
You grit your teeth and think, "Who is this guy? I'll educate him!"
Shut up, what are you, ten?
I've got a question for all of you. You COULD be out helping people in
third world countries run by ruthless dictators and armed militants to
live better lives. So why instead, are you arguing with each other as
to whether or not there is a god? What about your stupid invisible pink
unicorn? Did you learn nothing? If you cannot proove it exists, and you
cannot proove it does not exist... Do I actually have to say anything
else or are you so dense, nothing short of a .50 caliber round to the
face will wake you?
Wouldn't your 'god' want you to help people live better lives, not
through your stupid books but by having clean drinking water? We build
bombs to blow each other up, but we could pool those resources into
advancing ourselves as an entire race. My tax dollars get blown up in
the desert, stuffed into some fat cat's wallet, used to kill people
I've never met or have any quarrels with, but your pissed cause someone
chooses not to believe in an intangible force?
WTF?
You people with outlandish religious beliefs are simply misguided, just
like those who refuse to believe you. Perhaps it's because you are both
liars. And you both know it, but you just HAVE to be right. Why, how
could you possibly make a mistake? Why is it a scientist can make a
rocket to blast me into space but I have to go to a monestary to find
someone who can meditate? If you scientific minds are so educated, why
can you not find peace and harmony in the world around you? And what
about you Christians? Why do you justify killing even though your FIRST
COMMANDMENT STRICTLY FORBIDS THE ACT?
You both have the potential to do great things, but you don't.You are
both selfish.
You are all liars.
What, are you perfect? You've never lied before? Liar.
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| User: "Greywolf" |
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| Title: Re: Somewhere there is middle ground |
05 Jun 2006 02:14:54 AM |
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<catinthehat3@prodigy.net> wrote in message
news:1149475203.285828.308660@h76g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
I understand where war comes from. I understand human compassion and
violence. It's just so damn funny I want to puke, honestly. Now I don't
know just how many people will read this and for that matter, it is
doubtful that I care. But after spending time reading the arguments of
atheist and theological debaters I've come to a simple conclusion.
You are all just worried you could be wrong.
Now, honestly. Why would an atheist be 'worried' that he or she could be
'wrong'? What? Would it mean that we atheists would go to 'Hell'? Get real.
You both so desperately
want to be right you are willing to argue over these things, even
fight.
It's not a matter of 'wanting' to be right. It's a matter of putting an end
to the disgraceful indocrination of our youth with their inane hooey and
putting on the skids to their attempt to turn our beloved democracy into a
theocracy. And you've got to remember: those people are 'nuts'!
You want to talk about selfishness? You ever hear of the Fundementalist
Christians? These people will actively pray for you to burn in hell,
even though their OWN SCRIPTURE STATES QUITE CLEARLY AND RATHER
REPETIVELY that you should LOVE THY BROTHER. Freaking all of them,
regardless of their religion, race, country of origin, etc... Are you
really stupid enough to think that intelligent design would create
borders? Man created borders, put up walls and decided to isolate
himself. You pretend that Christians go to heaven because they are
good, but not all are. You say, "Well then they are not real
Christians." To which I say, correct. But guess what, you and your
entire organization has been invaded by these false christians, and
they are running the show. And like cattle to the slaughter, you follow
them without question because you have 'faith'.
Well *you* said it, not an atheist.
And for you atheists, what is so wrong with the unexplainable?
You've missed the point entirely. Its not that we think that this 'God' of
theirs is 'unexplainable'. Its quite the opposite. Their 'God' *is*
explainable. He is the product of man's imagination and nothing more. Its
the old case of 'The Emperor is Wearing No Clothes' again. There isn't even
the *eensiest*, *teensiest*, *weensiest* bit of evidence for the existence
of their 'God' and forty tons worth of material that points to the
conclusion that he *doesn't* exist! By using the word 'unexplainable' you
are giving our opponents far more than they deserve. You seem to imply that
their 'God' exists but is beyond our understanding. Puke! They've got
nothing, and I mean *nothing* in the way of proof that such a creature is
even *possible*.
I truly
sympathize with the fact that once you've seen something, you want to
know what caused it. We are naturally curious people. But if you've
seen Bruce Lee knock a man twelve feet with a one-inch punch through a
foot of padding, or seen a Shaolin monk create fire from nothing, well
you come to understand that SOME THINGS, JUST SOME GOD DAMNED THINGS,
require more than a meter to guage.
But don't you see that these 'miraculous' things are not really all that
'miraculous' once a scientist explains the principles of science behind the
actions you've described?
Science tells us that time and
space are compressed together, and so we are all made up of it. But let
me ask this; if my body according to science technically contains more
space than matter, that is the space between atoms, then why can I not
walk through walls? How can I type on this keyboard? Or better yet? Why
do I formulate hypothoses when others are willing to be brainwashed by
their televisions? Hey, why can't you create a unified theory?
Ooooh! I see. You're one of those people who believe that if someone cannot
give an adequate answer to a 'scientific' question you pose, it *must* mean
that the answer must involve the 'supernatural'. Ooooh! If I can't explain
it, and my fundamentalist cousin, Timmy can't explain it, it *must* mean
that 'God' worked his 'magic' in producing this unanswerable event. Ooooh!
Having
trouble explaining gravity are you?
Scientists have no problem explaining gravity. Haven't you ever watched
'Cosmos' or the 'Science Channel'?
You come up with explinations, but
you still don't understand it so quit pretending you do.
Oh I see! Those dumb-***** scientists only *pretended* to know how to produce
that Microwave oven you use each day. They only *pretended* to put man on
the moon, too. Did you know that?
I said stop!
You grit your teeth and think, "Who is this guy? I'll educate him!"
Shut up, what are you, ten?
And exactly *how* would you 'educate' this guy?
I've got a question for all of you. You COULD be out helping people in
third world countries run by ruthless dictators and armed militants to
live better lives.
You raised a good point. Have *you* packed your bags yet?
So why instead, are you arguing with each other as
to whether or not there is a god? What about your stupid invisible pink
unicorn?
Now *there's* an exhibition of some common sense. There's is *exactly* the
same amount of 'proof' for the existence of either of them.
Did you learn nothing? If you cannot proove it exists, and you
cannot proove it does not exist...
Here's a little tip that should help you out in picking a winner and a loser
in this 'debate'. If someone suddenly gets up and goes around the room
asserting there is a supernatural entity -- we'll call him 'God' -- talking
to him, it's up to him to prove that what he is saying is the 'truth'. It is
not necessarily incumbent upon any skeptic in the room to 'disprove' his
assertion. (But, of course, those in the room with him would tell him that
he's 'nuts' for making such a retarded assertion.) *He's the one making the
positive assertion. And if you think that, 'Well, maybe there *is* a
supernatural being talking to 'Cliff', its just that we can't hear him for
some supernatural reason.' Let's change that 'talking' entity from 'God' to
a pair of shoes sitting in the corner. What do you think of 'Cliff's' claim,
now?
Do I actually have to say anything
else or are you so dense, nothing short of a .50 caliber round to the
face will wake you?
Whew! A bit 'touchy', aren't we? A .50 caliber round to the face. Having
marital problems, are we?
Wouldn't your 'god' want you to help people live better lives, not
through your stupid books but by having clean drinking water? We build
bombs to blow each other up, but we could pool those resources into
advancing ourselves as an entire race. My tax dollars get blown up in
the desert, stuffed into some fat cat's wallet, used to kill people
I've never met or have any quarrels with, but your pissed cause someone
chooses not to believe in an intangible force?
Again, you're missing the point. These nut-cakes -- and I'm being kind
here -- are not merely content with keeping their beliefs to themselves, but
are forever trying to foist it on others. And this includes are vulnerable
children. You're also forgetting that these people are promoting their dog
diarreah as 'fact', as the 'truth'. Based on *what*, I ask you.
WTF?
You took the words right out of my mouth.
You people with outlandish religious beliefs are simply misguided, just
like those who refuse to believe you.
Well, if you think about it, only *one* side in this whole conflict is
actually 'misguided'. And you'll never guess in a million years which side
that side is.
Perhaps it's because you are both
liars.
And the 'real' truth here is ... ?
And you both know it, but you just HAVE to be right. Why, how
could you possibly make a mistake? Why is it a scientist can make a
rocket to blast me into space but I have to go to a monestary to find
someone who can meditate?
Who ever said you *had* to go to a monastary to 'meditate'?
If you scientific minds are so educated, why
can you not find peace and harmony in the world around you? And what
about you Christians? Why do you justify killing even though your FIRST
COMMANDMENT STRICTLY FORBIDS THE ACT?
You just answered the first part of your two-part question, yourself.
Christians are oftentimes the most despicable and morally reprehensible
critter you will ever come across.
You both have the potential to do great things, but you don't.You are
both selfish.
Well it could certainly be said that both sides could be doing better
things, that's for sure.
You are all liars.
Till you 'prove' there is a 'God', I would hold off calling atheists and
agnostics, 'liars'. Its very unbecoming.
What, are you perfect? You've never lied before? Liar.
Now I *know* I've got too much time on my hands!
Greywolf
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| User: "Denis Loubet" |
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| Title: Re: Somewhere there is middle ground |
05 Jun 2006 12:53:41 AM |
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<catinthehat3@prodigy.net> wrote in message
news:1149475203.285828.308660@h76g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
You are all just worried you could be wrong.
Wrong about what?
You both so desperately
want to be right you are willing to argue over these things, even
fight.
Right about what?
If you're talking about being right about whether there's a god or not,
that's not the question. The question is: Should I just arbitrarily believe
what someone else tells me without any evidence to back them up?
The answer is no.
And for you atheists, what is so wrong with the unexplainable?
What unexplainable? It has not been demonstrated that there's anything to
explain.
I truly
sympathize with the fact that once you've seen something, you want to
know what caused it. We are naturally curious people. But if you've
seen Bruce Lee knock a man twelve feet with a one-inch punch through a
foot of padding, or seen a Shaolin monk create fire from nothing, well
you come to understand that SOME THINGS, JUST SOME GOD DAMNED THINGS,
require more than a meter to guage.
I saw Penn and Teller make a submarine disappear on television.
I could not explain it.
Is that the kind of stuff you're talking about?
(snip incoherent rant)
I've got a question for all of you. You COULD be out helping people in
third world countries run by ruthless dictators and armed militants to
live better lives. So why instead, are you arguing with each other as
to whether or not there is a god?
We are pleading for rationality. If people were more rational, the problems
you describe would take care of themselves.
What about your stupid invisible pink
unicorn? Did you learn nothing? If you cannot proove it exists, and you
cannot proove it does not exist...
Did you not realize the IPU is a satirical rhetorical device?
Do I actually have to say anything
else or are you so dense, nothing short of a .50 caliber round to the
face will wake you?
So threatening to shoot people in the face is your solution to violence?
Even as a metaphore, it does not help your position.
What's the matter with you?
Wouldn't your 'god' want you to help people live better lives, not
through your stupid books but by having clean drinking water?
Are you back talking to the theists again? Or did you think atheists
actually worship the IPU?
We build
bombs to blow each other up, but we could pool those resources into
advancing ourselves as an entire race. My tax dollars get blown up in
the desert, stuffed into some fat cat's wallet, used to kill people
I've never met or have any quarrels with, but your pissed cause someone
chooses not to believe in an intangible force?
I'm pissed because people who believe in an intangible force make arbitiary
laws and start wars BECAUSE they believe in an intangible force.
WTF?
Indeed. What is the point of this rant?
You people with outlandish religious beliefs are simply misguided, just
like those who refuse to believe you.
Refusing to just arbitrarily believe what someone else tells you is
misguided?
I have to disagree.
Perhaps it's because you are both
liars.
No.
And you both know it, but you just HAVE to be right.
No. I just do not agree that the other person HAS to be right.
Why, how
could you possibly make a mistake?
I've made plenty, and admitted to errors on this very newsgroup.
Why is it a scientist can make a
rocket to blast me into space but I have to go to a monestary to find
someone who can meditate?
Because meditation is not engineering, and a monestary is not where they
launch rockets.
If you scientific minds are so educated, why
can you not find peace and harmony in the world around you?
Why do you assume we can't?
And what
about you Christians? Why do you justify killing even though your FIRST
COMMANDMENT STRICTLY FORBIDS THE ACT?
The first one does not command that. It commands that one have no other god
before the god.
Your post seems rife with similar gross errors, misrepresentations, and self
serving assumptions. Such things do little to assist your argument.
You both have the potential to do great things, but you don't.You are
both selfish.
And what of you? What have you done? Post a rant to a usenet newsgroup?
You are all liars.
That's certainly possible, but unless you have done the "great things" you
claim we have the potential to do, you are nothing but a hypocrite.
What, are you perfect? You've never lied before? Liar.
And what of you?
--
Denis Loubet
dloubet@io.com
http://www.io.com/~dloubet
http://www.ashenempires.com
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| User: "Pastor Kutchie" |
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| Title: Re: Somewhere there is middle ground |
05 Jun 2006 07:19:04 AM |
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put his third Pan-Galactic Gargle Blaster
down, attemped to focus both his eyes and his mind simultaneously, gave
up on both and typed:
And for you atheists, what is so wrong with the unexplainable? I truly
sympathize with the fact that once you've seen something, you want to
know what caused it. We are naturally curious people. But if you've
seen Bruce Lee knock a man twelve feet with a one-inch punch through a
foot of padding, or seen a Shaolin monk create fire from nothing, well
you come to understand that SOME THINGS, JUST SOME GOD DAMNED THINGS,
require more than a meter to guage.
Everything is measurable, but even us atheists like to take most things
at face value either for brevity or to preserve their emotional impact.
Science tells us <snip>
Science is a process, not an oracle.
I've got a question for all of you. You COULD be out helping people in
third world countries run by ruthless dictators and armed militants to
live better lives. So why instead, are you arguing with each other as
to whether or not there is a god?
Atheists don't argue about whether or not God exists, we assume, indeed
some of us know for certain, that he doesn't. It isn't our problem, or
it wouldn't be if people didn't insist that he does and that we have to
be told about it.
WTF?
F/K. You tell us.
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| User: "Enkidu" |
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| Title: Re: Somewhere there is middle ground |
04 Jun 2006 10:48:24 PM |
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wrote in news:1149475203.285828.308660
@h76g2000cwa.googlegroups.com:
Now I don't
know just how many people will read this and for that matter, it is
doubtful that I care.
Me too.
--
Enkidu AA#2165
http://www.thoughts.leaddogs.org/
EAC Chaplain and ordained minister,
ULC, Modesto, CA
PGP ID: 0xC4CE8CF0
"Faith is believing what you know ain't so."
-- Mark Twain
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: Somewhere there is middle ground |
04 Jun 2006 10:39:58 PM |
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wrote:
And for you atheists, what is so wrong with the unexplainable?
You're confused. In fact, you'e got it completely backwards.
For atheists & skeptics, an unexplained cure is an unexplained
cure, and they're just fine with that. The issue is with the people
who insist on calling it a religious "miracle" -- people who in
fact EXPLAIN the cure as resulting from divine intervention.
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| User: "Santolina chamaecyparissus" |
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| Title: Re: Somewhere there is middle ground |
04 Jun 2006 10:14:53 PM |
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wrote:
I understand where war comes from. I understand human compassion and
violence. It's just so damn funny I want to puke, honestly.
(snip)
And for you atheists, what is so wrong with the unexplainable? I truly
sympathize with the fact that once you've seen something, you want to
know what caused it. We are naturally curious people. But if you've
seen Bruce Lee knock a man twelve feet with a one-inch punch through a
foot of padding, or seen a Shaolin monk create fire from nothing, well
you come to understand that SOME THINGS, JUST SOME GOD DAMNED THINGS,
require more than a meter to guage.
(snip)
I've got a question for all of you. ... Do I actually have to say anything
else or are you so dense, nothing short of a .50 caliber round to the
face will wake you?
(snip)
WTF?
As a result of this post I have decided to accept Jesus Christ as my
personal Lord and Saviour.
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| User: "Josh Miles" |
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| Title: Re: Somewhere there is middle ground |
05 Jun 2006 02:31:43 AM |
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wrote:
I understand where war comes from. I understand human compassion and
violence. It's just so damn funny I want to puke, honestly. Now I don't
know just how many people will read this and for that matter, it is
doubtful that I care. But after spending time reading the arguments of
atheist and theological debaters I've come to a simple conclusion.
You are all just worried you could be wrong.
About what?
You both so desperately want to be right you are willing to argue over
these things, even fight.
About what?
You want to talk about selfishness? You ever hear of the Fundementalist
Christians?
Unfortunately, yes. I witness their stupidity here and on talk.origins
nearly every day.
These people will actively pray for you to burn in hell, even though their
OWN SCRIPTURE STATES QUITE CLEARLY AND RATHER
REPETIVELY that you should LOVE THY BROTHER.
And in that very same collection of books, we see God regularly
commanding his people to kill other people. Sometimes, when he's feeling
a bit feisty, he'll do it himself.
Freaking all of them, regardless of their religion, race, country of origin, etc...
Are you really stupid enough to think that intelligent design would create
borders?
Of course. Humans built them, and humans (well, not all of them, as
you've quite nicely demonstrated here) are intelligent.
I think you're talking about the creationism in a cheap tuxedo called
intelligent design, which is what's fashionable in the right wing
anti-science community today. And yes, it's *****.
Man created borders, put up walls and decided to isolate
himself. You pretend that Christians go to heaven because they are
good, but not all are.
No *****, Captain Obvious.
You say, "Well then they are not real
Christians." To which I say, correct. But guess what, you and your
entire organization has been invaded by these false christians, and
they are running the show. And like cattle to the slaughter, you follow
them without question because you have 'faith'.
Is there anything that's even a tiny bit original here?
And for you atheists, what is so wrong with the unexplainable?
Nothing. I find it very irritating, however, when people claim to be
able to explain the unexplainable, or when they do so by arguing
illogically (arguments from incredulity are very popular).
I truly sympathize with the fact that once you've seen something, you want to
know what caused it. We are naturally curious people. But if you've
seen Bruce Lee knock a man twelve feet with a one-inch punch through a
foot of padding,
Uh, that's called special effects. You didn't think the dinosaurs in
_Jurassic Park_ were real, did you?
or seen a Shaolin monk create fire from nothing,
Uh, that's called an illusion.
well you come to understand that SOME THINGS, JUST SOME GOD DAMNED THINGS,
require more than a meter to guage.
And your point is...?
Science tells us that time and space are compressed together,
and so we are all made up of it.
Oh no. You're going to start talking about science, although judging by
what you say below, you know nothing about it. This is a massive pet
peeve of mine.
But let me ask this; if my body according to science technically contains more
space than matter,
Bzzt! Wrong.
that is the space between atoms, then why can I not
walk through walls? How can I type on this keyboard?
Learn some science, please.
Or better yet? Why do I formulate hypothoses when others are willing
to be brainwashed by their televisions?
I find it hard to believe that someone who can't spell "hypotheses" can
formulate them very well.
The answer is simple: some people are stupid, some are not.
Hey, why can't you create a unified theory?
Unified theory of what?
Having trouble explaining gravity are you?
There are theories that explain gravity.
You come up with explinations, but you still don't understand it so
quit pretending you do.
How do you know? Just because *you* don't get it doesn't mean everyone
else doesn't either.
I said stop! You grit your teeth and think, "Who is this guy? I'll educate him!"
Well, to be quite honest, you don't seem to be very well educated. I'm
not going to offer to help educate you, though, as I don't have the
patience or the time.
Shut up, what are you, ten?
I've got a question for all of you. You COULD be out helping people in
third world countries run by ruthless dictators and armed militants to
live better lives.
What have *you* done to help the poor lately? Nothing? Thought so,
hypocrite.
So why instead, are you arguing with each other as
to whether or not there is a god? What about your stupid invisible pink
unicorn? Did you learn nothing? If you cannot proove it exists, and you
cannot proove it does not exist...
Why are you so focused on proof? Does something have to be provable in
order to be discussed? Don't tell that to the philosophers; they'll be
out of a job!
Do I actually have to say anything else or are you so dense,
nothing short of a .50 caliber round to the face will wake you?
Listen, you self-righteous sack of *****, if anyone is dense around here,
it's you.
Wouldn't your 'god' want you to help people live better lives, not
through your stupid books but by having clean drinking water?
We don't need a God to have clean drinking water. Ever heard of filters?
We build bombs to blow each other up, but we could pool those resources into
advancing ourselves as an entire race. My tax dollars get blown up in
the desert, stuffed into some fat cat's wallet, used to kill people
I've never met or have any quarrels with,
That is indeed terrible. But why not take your own advice and get off
your ***** and go take some action?
but your pissed cause someone chooses not to believe in an intangible force?
WTF?
You people with outlandish religious beliefs are simply misguided, just
like those who refuse to believe you.
I suppose you're the enlightened one, right?
Perhaps it's because you are both liars.
When have I lied to you?
And you both know it, but you just HAVE to be right.
No. I have absolutely no problem with the fact that I might be wrong
about a number of things.
Why, how could you possibly make a mistake?
I don't think anyone would claim that they're incapable of making a
mistake. What the hell is your point?
Why is it a scientist can make a rocket to blast me into space but I have to go to a monestary to find
someone who can meditate?
You don't have to go to a monastery to find someone who can meditate.
Anyone who wants to do it can. What's your point?
If you scientific minds are so educated, why can you not find peace and harmony in the world around you?
Scientific minds? Not everyone here claims to be well versed in science.
As for finding peace and harmony, well, that's not something that can be
achieved with education. That's completely up to you.
And what about you Christians? Why do you justify killing even though your FIRST
COMMANDMENT STRICTLY FORBIDS THE ACT?
It's called "hypocrisy." You're very familiar with it.
You both have the potential to do great things, but you don't.You are
both selfish.
Selfish in what way?
You are all liars.
When have I lied to you?
What, are you perfect? You've never lied before? Liar.
Who claims to be perfect?!
The self-righteous, arrogant, stupid tone of your post leads me to
believe that you're either a teenager or a very immature adult. Ugh, I
*hate* teenagers.
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| User: "wbarwell" |
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| Title: Re: Somewhere there is middle ground |
04 Jun 2006 10:47:40 PM |
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wrote:
I understand where war comes from. I understand human compassion and
violence. It's just so damn funny I want to puke, honestly. Now I don't
know just how many people will read this and for that matter, it is
doubtful that I care. But after spending time reading the arguments of
atheist and theological debaters I've come to a simple conclusion.
You are all just worried you could be wrong. You both so desperately
want to be right you are willing to argue over these things, even
fight.
No, I know I am right. The thing to do is sit down, think this over
and put it in strongest terms possible and fight for truth.
The wrongness of religion makes it do evil things.
It can't be saved because religion relies on being irrational.
And for you atheists, what is so wrong with the unexplainable?
That makes you do evil things. History shows you that.
Its not about unexplainable things, it is about being rational.
One day you are taught foolish things and taught to hate those
that attack religion with reason.
You abandon reason for religious dogma.
Then you abandon reason and are stuffing Jews in ovens.
Once you abandon reason, eanything can happen.
Religion teaches you to abandon reason and logic in
name of superstition, its the training ground for atrocities.
***********************************************************
The Failure of Christianity in America
W. C . Bar well 3-8-05
***********************************************************
Since Nixon, this nation has rapidly moved quite far to the
right, taken there mainly by christian right wingers who have
fully supported the GOP, as it has moved right to gain support
of christian right wingers. This started when Nixon played
the racist Southern Strategy card building on civil
rights era resentments by far right Southerners.
http://www.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2001/2/23/172743.shtml
The turn towards Christian conservatives accelerated
under Reagan, who skilfully played the religious card and the
religious right joined the GOP-Reagan revolution that still
is a major influence and has given the GOP control of Congress
for years, especially thanks to Newt Gingrich and Trent Lott
who gained control of the Congress, House and Senate in 1995.
So we now have had a essentially a christian-GOP government
for 30 years.
RICHARD M. NIXON - GERALD FORD.
Christian Americans supported incompetent and corrupt
Vietnamese politicians. And a senseless war in Vietnam
that accomplished nothing, run by incompetents.
Nixon instigated awful and murderous policies as the CIA
run program Phoenix program of assassinations and murder.
Supported the secret bombings in Cambodia that killed
an estimated 600,000 innocent Cambodians.
http://www.cooperativeresearch.org/timeline.jsp?timeline=cambodia
Winked at the invasion of East Timur and parts of New
Guinea by our allies, the Indonesians.
The Indonesians killed 1/3 of the Timurese over several
decades, mass murder, genocide. 168,000 dead.
http://www.yale.edu/gsp/east_timor/unverdict.html
Winked at the Greek far right Junta that overthrew the
Greek government.
Supported the murderous far right Brazilian generals who
overthrew that democratically elected government in Brazil.
Supported the mass murdering Argentinian government and
their terroristic "Dirty War" of torture, mass murder
and disappearances.
Supported the murderous Pinochet of Chile, whom the US
helped overthrow Chile's democratically elected government.
No complaints about Pinochet's tortures and killings are
to be heard from Nixon, Reagan, or later Bush or the GOP
leaders of Senate and House.
http://www.cia.gov/cia/reports/chile/index.html
No Christians respected life here. Or freedom. But supported
Nixon heartily despite the horrors we committed in Vietnam
and Cambodia and Chile and winked at support for others
mentioned above.
RONALD REAGAN 1981 - 1989
Throughout his administration Ronald Reagan supported
Pol Pot's Khmer Rouge as the official government
of note in Cambodia and the Khmer Rouge delegation
as the official UN delegation of Cambodia to the UN.
Aid is funneled to the Khmer Rouge including $81 million
dollars, and food and uniforms funneled through aid
organizations. Reagan winked as China rearmed Pol Pot,
and leaned on nations not to send aid to Cambodia despite
the devastation of nearly 1/3 of Cambodia's population
killed by Pol Pots genocidal regime.
Early in his administration Reagan lead the GOP in
support for military aid to the genocidal Rios Montt
of Guatemala, who practiced wholesale torture, rape
and genocide on the Mayan Indians of Guatemala.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/inatl/daily/march99/guatemala11.htm
Reagan and the GOP supported the mass murdering ex-Somoza
Guards of Nicaragua.
Reagan and the GOP supported Saddam Hussein of Iraq.
Reagan and the GOP supported the murderous Robert
D'Aubisson of El Salvador, a known far right death
squad leader.
The El Salvadoran government was involved in numerous
murders, and massacres, such as the killing of 400
villagers at a small village called El Mezote, most
of them young women and children.
http://www.usip.org/library/tc/doc/reports/el_salvador/tc_es_03151993_chron1.html
Reagan and the GOP supported Noriega of Panama.
Reagan and the GOP supported a number of murdering
far right extremist guerrilla movements in Africa including
the genocidal RENAMO in Mozambique.
The Christian and religious right heavily supported Reagan
and the GOP despite numerous examples of such evils as
listed above. The leader of the religious right never cared
nor complained, neither did the religious leaders of the
main stream christian denominations.
There was and is no respect for life in American
christianity as these wholesale and repeat failures of
America christianity collectively over 20 years shows.
GEORGE W. BUSH
Bush continued support for the evil dictators above,
including Pinochet, Pol Pot and others. However,
Saddam screwed us and invaded Iraq, mainly because
Bush screwed up and did not warn him to not do so
as Hussein repeatedly threatened to invade Kuwait
for nearly two months and coolly noted Bush's lack
of much response.
Bush did not act in case of genocide by Yugoslavia's
Milosevic, and Bush and the GOP's loud and obnoxious
foot-dragging here allowed Milosevic to kill
hundreds of thousands with near impunity.
The leaders of the GOP, House and Senate, and religious
leaders of the right and mainstream denominations never
cared about any of this.
In the Desert Storm war, Bush allowed the US air
force to bomb Iraq's water and sewer systems and
dams. A war crime as per Geneva conventions and
othere conventions the US signed.
The US placed sanctions on Iraq that made it impossible
to keep their water supplies safe resulting in numerous
deaths that eventually would total over 500,000 dead
Iraqi civilians, mostly children.
Our government coldly calculated that these sanctions would
indeed would cause mass epidemics and mass death, and did
it anyway.
Thomas Nagy, a California college professor used the FOIA
statutes to obtain these documents that were published
in September 2001 in the Progressive Magazine.
http://www.progressive.org/0801issue/nagy0901.html
No Christian leaders of either far right or mainstream
cared nor brought Bush and the GOP leadership of House
and Senate to task for this genocide of innocents.
Clinton:
Under Clinton this policy continued. Again, Christians did
not care. All Christians cared about was Clinton's
don't-ask-don't-tell gays in military policy and Clinton's
sex life and Whitewater. $47 million spent investigating
Whitewater while the Christian right roared with naked hate.
Money spent investigation mass murder in Iraq caused by
our purposeful by our sanctions? $0.
Roars of disprovable from Christian America over these mass
murders? None.
What has 30 years of right winged GOP government and right
winger christianity got us? Mass murder, genocide,
Nothing but callousness, disregard for human life,
a near total moral failure of religion, Christianity,
GOP and the American right.
Not once did religious christian Americans, either
leadership or rank and file ever find any of these
evils unacceptable or punish any who supported any
of this. Not the christian right nor leaders of
major US religious denominations.
Most GOP House and Senate members were people who
did these things claimed to be christians. Not one
cares, not a christian cares they did not care or act.
Many of those who presided over these massive moral
failures still hold office in the US Congress and
Senate, leaders and ran and file. Almost all claim
to be christians.
30 years of failure. 30 years of support for
far right genocidal bastards, mass murderers,
and evil.
Christians posture as moral, American christians have
a very bad track records when it comes to morality, they
will happily support any genocidal monster as long as he's
a right winger, and right winger politicians support
that monster no matter how murderous or genocidal he
and his evil regime is.
(End)
--
"Its the hit dog what yelps."
- Mark Twain
Cheerful Charlie
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| User: "Olrik" |
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| Title: Re: Somewhere there is middle ground |
05 Jun 2006 12:44:51 AM |
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wrote:
I understand where war comes from. I understand human compassion and
violence. It's just so damn funny I want to puke, honestly. Now I don't
know just how many people will read this and for that matter, it is
doubtful that I care. But after spending time reading the arguments of
atheist and theological debaters I've come to a simple conclusion.
You are all just worried you could be wrong. You both so desperately
want to be right you are willing to argue over these things, even
fight.
Some are, some aren't.
But tell us : what's your position?
On the fence? Agnostic? Theist? Deist? Christian? Atheist?
Other? Please specify: ________
Or you might just be a perfect, "holier than thou" trollish fly-by
poster?
<snip>
And for you atheists, what is so wrong with the unexplainable? I truly
sympathize with the fact that once you've seen something, you want to
know what caused it. We are naturally curious people. But if you've
seen Bruce Lee knock a man twelve feet with a one-inch punch through a
foot of padding, or seen a Shaolin monk create fire from nothing, well
you come to understand that SOME THINGS, JUST SOME GOD DAMNED THINGS,
require more than a meter to guage.
They're called "special effects".
Science tells us that time and
space are compressed together, and so we are all made up of it. But let
me ask this; if my body according to science technically contains more
space than matter, that is the space between atoms, then why can I not
walk through walls?
You'd fall through the floor first. You should read more about physics.
How can I type on this keyboard? Or better yet? Why
do I formulate hypothoses when others are willing to be brainwashed by
their televisions? Hey, why can't you create a unified theory? Having
trouble explaining gravity are you?
How old are you?
You come up with explinations, but
you still don't understand it so quit pretending you do. I said stop!
You grit your teeth and think, "Who is this guy? I'll educate him!"
Shut up, what are you, ten?
I'm trying to guess what you've been drinking or smoking.
<snip>
Wouldn't your 'god' want you to help people live better lives, not
through your stupid books but by having clean drinking water? We build
bombs to blow each other up, but we could pool those resources into
advancing ourselves as an entire race. My tax dollars get blown up in
the desert, stuffed into some fat cat's wallet, used to kill people
I've never met or have any quarrels with, but your pissed cause someone
chooses not to believe in an intangible force?
WTF?
You've got a point there. The problem is that, frankly, we're not very
bright as a species.
You people with outlandish religious beliefs are simply misguided, just
like those who refuse to believe you. Perhaps it's because you are both
liars. And you both know it, but you just HAVE to be right. Why, how
could you possibly make a mistake? Why is it a scientist can make a
rocket to blast me into space but I have to go to a monestary to find
someone who can meditate? If you scientific minds are so educated, why
can you not find peace and harmony in the world around you? And what
about you Christians? Why do you justify killing even though your FIRST
COMMANDMENT STRICTLY FORBIDS THE ACT?
I don't really care, but since you mention it :
The "first commandment" is : "You shall have no other Gods but me." The
one about not killing is the sixth, but just about no jews nor xians
ever respected it in principle (they're so many exceptions to this
"commandment", it's not even funny.)
You both have the potential to do great things, but you don't.You are
both selfish.
<sarcasm>
Show us the way, O Great One!
</sarcasm>
You are all liars.
What, are you perfect? You've never lied before? Liar.
How about you?
Olrik
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| User: "cbruce" |
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| Title: Re: Somewhere there is middle ground |
05 Jun 2006 06:34:53 AM |
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I liked the part about afraid to be wrong. It explains a lot doesn't
it?
________________________
catinthehat3@prodigy.net wrote:
I understand where war comes from. I understand human compassion and
violence. It's just so damn funny I want to puke, honestly. Now I don't
know just how many people will read this and for that matter, it is
doubtful that I care. But after spending time reading the arguments of
atheist and theological debaters I've come to a simple conclusion.
You are all just worried you could be wrong. You both so desperately
want to be right you are willing to argue over these things, even
fight.
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| User: "Christopher A. Lee" |
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| Title: Re: Somewhere there is middle ground |
05 Jun 2006 07:27:11 AM |
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On 5 Jun 2006 04:34:53 -0700, "cbruce" <cbruce@inbox.com> wrote:
I liked the part about afraid to be wrong. It explains a lot doesn't
it?
Theists might be worried.
We have nothing to worry about apart from ignorant idiots who imagine
the world revolves around the theist's god-belief.
________________________
catinthehat3@prodigy.net wrote:
I understand where war comes from. I understand human compassion and
violence. It's just so damn funny I want to puke, honestly. Now I don't
know just how many people will read this and for that matter, it is
doubtful that I care. But after spending time reading the arguments of
atheist and theological debaters I've come to a simple conclusion.
You are all just worried you could be wrong. You both so desperately
want to be right you are willing to argue over these things, even
What a remarkably stupid thing to say about atheists. We don't build a
worldview around the none-existence of the object of somebody else's
religious belief.
Why should we, any more than the idiot who posted this builds one
around the non-existence of Santa Claus?
fight.
There would be no fight if the religious kept their beliefs to
themselves instead of pushing them where they are neither wanted nor
needed....
....or if they didn't constantly slander those outside their religion.
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: Somewhere there is middle ground |
05 Jun 2006 02:07:49 PM |
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My first message was a farse. I wanted people on both sides to reply,
to bring their facts, their rants, the good and bad. I want good things
for all people. I want you all to live long, happy and prosperous
lives. That is what you deserve. But do you wish the same? It doesn't
matter which path you take. None are faster, you are all trying to get
to the same conclusion. True victory is to know when to quit fighting.
Thank you.
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| User: "Greywolf" |
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| Title: Re: Somewhere there is middle ground |
05 Jun 2006 06:13:35 PM |
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<catinthehat3@prodigy.net> wrote in message
news:1149534469.352521.208270@g10g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
My first message was a farse. I wanted people on both sides to reply,
to bring their facts, their rants, the good and bad. I want good things
for all people. I want you all to live long, happy and prosperous
lives. That is what you deserve. But do you wish the same? It doesn't
matter which path you take. None are faster, you are all trying to get
to the same conclusion. True victory is to know when to quit fighting.
Thank you.
Well thanks for the 'positive' sentiments you've expressed here. But do you
really think you needed to stoop to deceit to achieve your aim? It's quite
'fundamentalist Christian', you know.
Greywolf
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| User: "Bretts Ghost" |
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| Title: Re: Somewhere there is middle ground |
05 Jun 2006 06:11:38 PM |
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wrote:
My first message was a farse.
I thank God then, that I decided not to respond to it.
I wanted people on both sides to reply,
to bring their facts, their rants, the good and bad. I want good things
for all people. I want you all to live long, happy and prosperous
lives. That is what you deserve. But do you wish the same? It doesn't
matter which path you take. None are faster, you are all trying to get
to the same conclusion. True victory is to know when to quit fighting.
More generalities and unsubstantiated half-statements. You seem more
confused here than in your first post.
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| User: "Liz" |
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| Title: Re: Somewhere there is middle ground |
05 Jun 2006 06:57:32 AM |
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On 4 Jun 2006 19:40:03 -0700, in news message
<1149475203.285828.308660@h76g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> wrote:
[----]
And for you atheists, what is so wrong with the unexplainable?
Nothing is wrong with the unexplainable. "I don't know" is a
perfectly valid answer. It is those who really don't know, but
pretend they do who are the problem.
Science tells us that time and
space are compressed together, and so we are all made up of it.
¿Que?
But let
me ask this; if my body according to science technically contains more
space than matter, that is the space between atoms, then why can I not
walk through walls?
Theoretically you can, but the probability a macro object such as a
human body tunneling through another macro object such as a wall and
coming out intact is very low.
How can I type on this keyboard?
Electrical forces keep your atoms together.
Or better yet? Why
do I formulate hypothoses when others are willing to be brainwashed by
their televisions?
Science does not answer "why". It answers "how".
Hey, why can't you create a unified theory? Having
trouble explaining gravity are you? You come up with explinations, but
you still don't understand it so quit pretending you do. I said stop!
You grit your teeth and think, "Who is this guy? I'll educate him!"
Shut up, what are you, ten?
No, I don't think it is possible to educate you. I think you will
believe exactly what you want to believe despite reality *****
slapping you in the face. I'm awed by such blatent stupidity . . .
but not in a good way.
WTF?
If you scientific minds are so educated, why
can you not find peace and harmony in the world around you?
You maybe. I'm doing fine.
And what
about you Christians? Why do you justify killing even though your FIRST
COMMANDMENT STRICTLY FORBIDS THE ACT?
Ah no, the first commandment is about not having any other gods before
Big G®. Killing comes in fifth or sixth depending upon whether you
are Catholic or Protestant.
Liz #658 BAAWA
Many...freely confess that they believe what it makes them
feel good to believe. Evidence doesn't play much of a role.
They are alleviating their fear of randomness by identifying
regularities that are not there. - Murray Gell-Mann
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| User: "Mark K. Bilbo" |
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| Title: Re: Somewhere there is middle ground |
05 Jun 2006 06:18:11 AM |
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Previously, on alt.atheism, catinthehat3 in episode
<1149475203.285828.308660@h76g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>...
Science tells us that time and space are compressed
together...
Um... no.
Of course, any sentence that starts with "science says" is pretty much
guaranteed to be totally pig ignorant of, oh, actual science.
(Science says, touch your nose!)
--
Mark K. Bilbo
--------------------------------------------------
"As hip as it is for outsiders to blame New Orleans
for everything bad that happened during and after
Hurricane Katrina, the truth is that the people
who lived here were much more prepared for a big
storm than the federal government that promised
us flood protection." [Jarvis DeBerry]
http://makeashorterlink.com/?V180525DC
"Everything New Orleans"
http://www.nola.com
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| User: "Thurisaz, Germanic barbarian" |
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| Title: Re: Somewhere there is middle ground |
04 Jun 2006 11:11:05 PM |
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catinthehat3@prodigy.net:
And for you atheists, what is so wrong with the unexplainable?
Let's rephrase this to drive the point home, shall we?
And for you Jews in nazi Germany, what is so wrong with a government calling
you "Untermenschen"?
I'm not exactly in a position to speak for all atheists (let alone that I'm
not even one myself...), but for all I know, the average atheist would be
perfectly happy to just agree to disagree with theists... except that those
fanatical theists routinely call _him_ and all of his atheist fellows
"Untermenschen". In other words, what you rant about is not an atheist
attack against theism, but a defense against the "enemy's" attack.
--
"To his friend a man a friend shall prove, and gifts with gifts requite;
But men shall mocking with mockery answer, and fraud with falsehood meet."
(The Poetic Edda)
Must have been written with fundies in mind...
My personal judgment of monotheism:
http://www.carcosa.de/nojebus
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