Speaking of tongues



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Topic: Religions > Atheism
User: "maff"
Date: 12 Mar 2005 05:15:50 AM
Object: Speaking of tongues
Speaking of tongues
http://books.guardian.co.uk/review/story/0,12084,1434840,00.html
Nicholas Ostler's survey of the world's linguistic histories, Empires
of the Word, fascinates Martin Jacques
Saturday March 12, 2005
The Guardian
Empires of the Word: A Language History of the World
by Nicholas Ostler
615pp, HarperCollins, £30
There are many ways of recounting the history of the world - via the
rise and fall of civilisations, the fortunes of nation states,
socio-economic systems and patterns, the development of technology, or
the chronology of war and military prowess. This book tells the story
through the rise and decline of languages. It is a compelling read, one
of the most interesting books I have read in a long while.
Linguistics
http://groups-beta.google.com/group/talk.origins/msg/d16d919c324beef0
Nicholas Ostler
http://news.google.com/news?tab=gn&q=%22Nicholas%20Ostler%22&num=100&hl=en&lr=&safe=off&
http://www.google.com/search?tab=nw&q=%22Nicholas+Ostler%22&num=100&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&sa=N
http://www.google.com/search?q=%22Nicholas+Ostler%22&btnG=Google+Search&hl=en&cat=gwd%2FTop
http://groups-beta.google.com/groups?q=%22Nicholas+Ostler%22&start=0&scoring=d&num=100&hl=en&lr=&safe=off&
.

User: ""

Title: Re: Speaking of tongues 12 Mar 2005 11:28:29 AM
maff wrote:

Speaking of tongues
http://books.guardian.co.uk/review/story/0,12084,1434840,00.html

There are many ways of recounting the history of the world - via the
rise and fall of civilisations, the fortunes of nation states,
socio-economic systems and patterns, the development of technology,

or

the chronology of war and military prowess. This book tells the story
through the rise and decline of languages. It is a compelling read,

one

of the most interesting books I have read in a long while.

If only that book would be available here. Not likely, I'd venture.
Also from the item:

History teaches us that the future will always be shaped in
large part by the unexpected and the unknowable: language is
a classic case in point. Even the mightiest languages have
fallen, and the future of the mightiest of our time - English
- can never be secure or guaranteed, whatever the appearances
to the contrary. Languages follow something like Darwin's law
of evolution: they come and go, though their life spans vary
enormously. Of the approximately 7,000 language communities
in the world today, more than half have fewer than 5,000
speakers, and 1,000 fewer than a dozen: many will be extinct
within a generation. But which languages, a millennium from
now, will still be prospering, which will be the dominant
global languages, and which will be the lingua franca? From
our vantage point in the early 21st century, this remains
entirely unpredictable.

Don't be surprised if Spanish reemerges as a global language.
Between the EU and a fracturing US, the emergence of democracy,
technology, education systems, and economies plus demise of
cronyism in South America, as well as the need to communicate
with islam, it's not a stretch to suggest this is possible.
The difference from the past is computer translation: if it can
be made efficient and accurate, will automated translation cause
languages to stagnate and stop or slow their intermingling? And
will artificial languages finally be feasible as intermediaries?
Esperanto and others failed in the 20th century because English
and French were adequate; pidgins and creoles succeeded in the
18th and 19th centuries because they were needed.
Bob Dog
.
User: "maff"

Title: Re: Speaking of tongues 12 Mar 2005 02:30:23 PM
wrote:

maff wrote:

Speaking of tongues
http://books.guardian.co.uk/review/story/0,12084,1434840,00.html

There are many ways of recounting the history of the world - via

the

rise and fall of civilisations, the fortunes of nation states,
socio-economic systems and patterns, the development of technology,

or

the chronology of war and military prowess. This book tells the

story

through the rise and decline of languages. It is a compelling read,

one

of the most interesting books I have read in a long while.


If only that book would be available here. Not likely, I'd venture.

Also from the item:

History teaches us that the future will always be shaped in
large part by the unexpected and the unknowable: language is
a classic case in point. Even the mightiest languages have
fallen, and the future of the mightiest of our time - English
- can never be secure or guaranteed, whatever the appearances
to the contrary. Languages follow something like Darwin's law
of evolution: they come and go, though their life spans vary
enormously. Of the approximately 7,000 language communities
in the world today, more than half have fewer than 5,000
speakers, and 1,000 fewer than a dozen: many will be extinct
within a generation. But which languages, a millennium from
now, will still be prospering, which will be the dominant
global languages, and which will be the lingua franca? From
our vantage point in the early 21st century, this remains
entirely unpredictable.


Don't be surprised if Spanish reemerges as a global language.
Between the EU and a fracturing US, the emergence of democracy,
technology, education systems, and economies plus demise of
cronyism in South America, as well as the need to communicate
with islam, it's not a stretch to suggest this is possible.

The difference from the past is computer translation: if it can
be made efficient and accurate, will automated translation cause
languages to stagnate and stop or slow their intermingling? And
will artificial languages finally be feasible as intermediaries?
Esperanto and others failed in the 20th century because English
and French were adequate; pidgins and creoles succeeded in the
18th and 19th centuries because they were needed.

Twin nested hierarchy
http://groups-beta.google.com/group/alt.religion.jehovahs-witn/msg/62b9e5ea5cb98b0
http://groups-beta.google.com/group/alt.atheism/msg/6d76225f9661f04b



Bob Dog

.

User: "Meteorite Debris"

Title: Re: Speaking of tongues 13 Mar 2005 07:09:33 PM
On 12 Mar 2005 09:28:29 -0800 the ET form known as
bg12345@apexmail.com<bg12345@apexmail.com> sent a radio signal across
the vast expanse of deep space -._.--._.--._.--._.--._.--._.

maff wrote:

Speaking of tongues
http://books.guardian.co.uk/review/story/0,12084,1434840,00.html

There are many ways of recounting the history of the world - via the
rise and fall of civilisations, the fortunes of nation states,
socio-economic systems and patterns, the development of technology,

or

the chronology of war and military prowess. This book tells the story
through the rise and decline of languages. It is a compelling read,

one

of the most interesting books I have read in a long while.


If only that book would be available here. Not likely, I'd venture.

Also from the item:

History teaches us that the future will always be shaped in
large part by the unexpected and the unknowable: language is
a classic case in point. Even the mightiest languages have
fallen, and the future of the mightiest of our time - English
- can never be secure or guaranteed, whatever the appearances
to the contrary. Languages follow something like Darwin's law
of evolution: they come and go, though their life spans vary
enormously. Of the approximately 7,000 language communities
in the world today, more than half have fewer than 5,000
speakers, and 1,000 fewer than a dozen: many will be extinct
within a generation. But which languages, a millennium from
now, will still be prospering, which will be the dominant
global languages, and which will be the lingua franca? From
our vantage point in the early 21st century, this remains
entirely unpredictable.


Don't be surprised if Spanish reemerges as a global language.
Between the EU and a fracturing US, the emergence of democracy,
technology, education systems, and economies plus demise of
cronyism in South America, as well as the need to communicate
with islam, it's not a stretch to suggest this is possible.

I think English will be like Latin. Its many dialects will branch into
new languages. I'm not just talking about British, Australian and
American varieties. There are dialects out there that are so different
that they make the above varieties seem indistinguishable from each
other. Like Singlish, Pratley, Indish and so on. In Singapore people
will speak Singlish in normal life which is hard for foreign English
speakers to understand but the same people will of course speak
English English or international English when doing business with
foreigners. So international English is a type of "high English" and I
understand that the Roman Empire had equivalents in Latin and Greek
used for trade and politics existing alongside of local varieties
which were looked down upon by the educated. The Emperor Trajan was
mocked for his regional Spain accent.
Languages evolve like animals. They radiate like the tree of life and
just like the tree of life whole branches are periodically pruned. The
world is witnessing a massive pruning operation now. Most aboriginal
languages in Australia have disappeared. Most are disappearing in New
Guinea. It's the same story all over the world. But eventually English
will branch out like Latin. Spanish and French may also branch out
too.

The difference from the past is computer translation: if it can
be made efficient and accurate, will automated translation cause
languages to stagnate and stop or slow their intermingling? And
will artificial languages finally be feasible as intermediaries?
Esperanto and others failed in the 20th century because English
and French were adequate; pidgins and creoles succeeded in the
18th and 19th centuries because they were needed.

I would not wait for automatic translation. By the time a computer
program can translate all nuances of languages they would have moved
on into other nuances that confuse computer translations. By the time
an automatic translator can understand that "out of sight, out of
mind" does not mean "invisible idiot", or that "the body is weak but
the spirit is strong" does not mean "the meat was rotten but the wine
was good" other subtle strange irrational expressions will evolve to
confuse it. I think automatic translators will always be an
interesting curiosity prone to throw up amusing interpretations.
Computer can beat us hands down with computer languages but humans can
whip a CPU every time with moister biological communication protocols.
--
epicurus1*at*optusnet*dot*com*dot*au
apatriot #1, atheist #1417,
Chief EAC prophet
Jason Gastrich is praying for me on 8 January 2009
http://members.optusnet.com.au/~pk1956/
Apatriotism Yahoo Group
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/apatriotism
Sunday: A day given over by Americans to wishing that they themselves
were dead and in Heaven, and that their neighbors were dead and in
Hell.
-Mencken
.



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