| Topic: |
Religions > Atheism |
| User: |
"Ritalin-Kid" |
| Date: |
17 Nov 2005 07:54:34 PM |
| Object: |
Square-circles possible in an elliptic universe? |
I'm having a discussion with this guy who asserts that square-circles
are possible in an elliptic universe.
I can see that from a euclidean perspective we could *perceive* that a
square resembles a circle, but I cannot see where a square would have a
middle point where all points are the same length (circle). So I'm
thinking that it's more like Escher's art/illusions rather than
geometry.
Anyways. Anybody care to explain to me where the guy's right/wrong?
He keeps harping on about triangles having 270 degrees in angles. But I
fail to see *how* any of this would make a square into a circle without
loosing it's erm... square attributes.
(I keep on giving him examples in a "God exists" thread, so I figured
this newsgroup has seen this argument somewhere)
.
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| User: "Michael Gray" |
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| Title: Re: Square-circles possible in an elliptic universe? |
18 Nov 2005 02:16:35 AM |
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On 17 Nov 2005 11:54:34 -0800, "Ritalin-Kid" <Jester_Dee@yahoo.com>
wrote:
I'm having a discussion with this guy who asserts that square-circles
are possible in an elliptic universe.
I can see that from a euclidean perspective we could *perceive* that a
square resembles a circle, but I cannot see where a square would have a
middle point where all points are the same length (circle). So I'm
thinking that it's more like Escher's art/illusions rather than
geometry.
Anyways. Anybody care to explain to me where the guy's right/wrong?
He keeps harping on about triangles having 270 degrees in angles. But I
fail to see *how* any of this would make a square into a circle without
loosing it's erm... square attributes.
(I keep on giving him examples in a "God exists" thread, so I figured
this newsgroup has seen this argument somewhere)
In my professional opinion, he is right.
Imagine a "square" drawn on a sphere.
Expand it until it is congruent with the equator.
It is then both a square and a circle (in strict topological terms,
but perhaps not practical terms.)
.
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| User: "Colin Day" |
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| Title: Re: Square-circles possible in an elliptic universe? |
18 Nov 2005 07:33:02 PM |
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Michael Gray wrote:
On 17 Nov 2005 11:54:34 -0800, "Ritalin-Kid" <Jester_Dee@yahoo.com>
wrote:
I'm having a discussion with this guy who asserts that square-circles
are possible in an elliptic universe.
I can see that from a euclidean perspective we could *perceive* that a
square resembles a circle, but I cannot see where a square would have a
middle point where all points are the same length (circle). So I'm
thinking that it's more like Escher's art/illusions rather than
geometry.
Anyways. Anybody care to explain to me where the guy's right/wrong?
He keeps harping on about triangles having 270 degrees in angles. But I
fail to see *how* any of this would make a square into a circle without
loosing it's erm... square attributes.
(I keep on giving him examples in a "God exists" thread, so I figured
this newsgroup has seen this argument somewhere)
In my professional opinion, he is right.
Imagine a "square" drawn on a sphere.
Expand it until it is congruent with the equator.
It is then both a square and a circle (in strict topological terms,
but perhaps not practical terms.)
But then it's only a one-dimensional figure, as the sides are collinear.
Colin Day aa #1500
.
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| User: "Michael Gray" |
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| Title: Re: Square-circles possible in an elliptic universe? |
19 Nov 2005 03:29:48 AM |
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On Fri, 18 Nov 2005 19:33:02 GMT, Colin Day <cday3@sc.rr.com> wrote:
Michael Gray wrote:
On 17 Nov 2005 11:54:34 -0800, "Ritalin-Kid" <Jester_Dee@yahoo.com>
wrote:
I'm having a discussion with this guy who asserts that square-circles
are possible in an elliptic universe.
I can see that from a euclidean perspective we could *perceive* that a
square resembles a circle, but I cannot see where a square would have a
middle point where all points are the same length (circle). So I'm
thinking that it's more like Escher's art/illusions rather than
geometry.
Anyways. Anybody care to explain to me where the guy's right/wrong?
He keeps harping on about triangles having 270 degrees in angles. But I
fail to see *how* any of this would make a square into a circle without
loosing it's erm... square attributes.
(I keep on giving him examples in a "God exists" thread, so I figured
this newsgroup has seen this argument somewhere)
In my professional opinion, he is right.
Imagine a "square" drawn on a sphere.
Expand it until it is congruent with the equator.
It is then both a square and a circle (in strict topological terms,
but perhaps not practical terms.)
But then it's only a one-dimensional figure, as the sides are collinear.
Colin Day aa #1500
Oh no! You're not getting me into this again! ;)
Here's where I do what theists do: pull rank, give an argument from
authority, (me), and close the debate.
It *is*, OK? Just IS!
(Stamps feet)
Why? Because I SAY SO...
(My math degree has got to come handy for something other that
preventing a patch of wallpaper from fading.)
I just invented Argumentum ad Tizzyfitium.
I won, so there!
.
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| User: "Colin Day" |
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| Title: Re: Square-circles possible in an elliptic universe? |
20 Nov 2005 05:38:08 AM |
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Michael Gray wrote:
On Fri, 18 Nov 2005 19:33:02 GMT, Colin Day <cday3@sc.rr.com> wrote:
Michael Gray wrote:
On 17 Nov 2005 11:54:34 -0800, "Ritalin-Kid" <Jester_Dee@yahoo.com>
wrote:
I'm having a discussion with this guy who asserts that square-circles
are possible in an elliptic universe.
I can see that from a euclidean perspective we could *perceive* that a
square resembles a circle, but I cannot see where a square would have a
middle point where all points are the same length (circle). So I'm
thinking that it's more like Escher's art/illusions rather than
geometry.
Anyways. Anybody care to explain to me where the guy's right/wrong?
He keeps harping on about triangles having 270 degrees in angles. But I
fail to see *how* any of this would make a square into a circle without
loosing it's erm... square attributes.
(I keep on giving him examples in a "God exists" thread, so I figured
this newsgroup has seen this argument somewhere)
In my professional opinion, he is right.
Imagine a "square" drawn on a sphere.
Expand it until it is congruent with the equator.
It is then both a square and a circle (in strict topological terms,
but perhaps not practical terms.)
But then it's only a one-dimensional figure, as the sides are collinear.
Colin Day aa #1500
Oh no! You're not getting me into this again! ;)
Here's where I do what theists do: pull rank, give an argument from
authority, (me), and close the debate.
It *is*, OK? Just IS!
(Stamps feet)
Why? Because I SAY SO...
(My math degree has got to come handy for something other that
preventing a patch of wallpaper from fading.)
I just invented Argumentum ad Tizzyfitium.
I won, so there!
But what is your highest math degree? Mine is a Ph D (1992, University of
South Carolina, otherwise known as: dammit, why can't we beat Clemson!).
Colin Day aa #1500
.
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| User: "Michael Gray" |
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| Title: Re: Square-circles possible in an elliptic universe? |
20 Nov 2005 10:20:04 AM |
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On Sun, 20 Nov 2005 05:38:08 GMT, Colin Day <cday3@sc.rr.com> wrote:
Michael Gray wrote:
On Fri, 18 Nov 2005 19:33:02 GMT, Colin Day <cday3@sc.rr.com> wrote:
Michael Gray wrote:
On 17 Nov 2005 11:54:34 -0800, "Ritalin-Kid" <Jester_Dee@yahoo.com>
wrote:
I'm having a discussion with this guy who asserts that square-circles
are possible in an elliptic universe.
I can see that from a euclidean perspective we could *perceive* that a
square resembles a circle, but I cannot see where a square would have a
middle point where all points are the same length (circle). So I'm
thinking that it's more like Escher's art/illusions rather than
geometry.
Anyways. Anybody care to explain to me where the guy's right/wrong?
He keeps harping on about triangles having 270 degrees in angles. But I
fail to see *how* any of this would make a square into a circle without
loosing it's erm... square attributes.
(I keep on giving him examples in a "God exists" thread, so I figured
this newsgroup has seen this argument somewhere)
In my professional opinion, he is right.
Imagine a "square" drawn on a sphere.
Expand it until it is congruent with the equator.
It is then both a square and a circle (in strict topological terms,
but perhaps not practical terms.)
But then it's only a one-dimensional figure, as the sides are collinear.
Colin Day aa #1500
Oh no! You're not getting me into this again! ;)
Here's where I do what theists do: pull rank, give an argument from
authority, (me), and close the debate.
It *is*, OK? Just IS!
(Stamps feet)
Why? Because I SAY SO...
(My math degree has got to come handy for something other that
preventing a patch of wallpaper from fading.)
I just invented Argumentum ad Tizzyfitium.
I won, so there!
But what is your highest math degree? Mine is a Ph D (1992, University of
South Carolina, otherwise known as: dammit, why can't we beat Clemson!).
Colin Day aa #1500
Ah, so it's going to be qualification-fencing now? ;)
(Whips out theist lie enhancing spell: waves over conversation...
_.:****:._)
"I hold the chair in advanced impure mathematics at Magdelen College,
Oxford, and have done so for the last 152 years."
And I'm not going to prove it.
You provide absolute proof that I haven't, and I'll dismiss it out of
hand.
And I'll deny that I ever claimed it, anyway.
Here comes the gratuitous insult:
You can't have a PhD in Math, otherwise you wouldn't have spelled
"collinear" incorrrrectly.
I'll see your PhD, and raise you one lousy University Footy team.
(You see, I've learned from the masters: duke, Boatwrong, et al.
Hey, this feels good!
Not having to justify ones-self, that is.)
.
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| User: "Colin Day" |
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| Title: Re: Square-circles possible in an elliptic universe? |
21 Nov 2005 12:50:03 AM |
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Michael Gray wrote:
On Sun, 20 Nov 2005 05:38:08 GMT, Colin Day <cday3@sc.rr.com> wrote:
Michael Gray wrote:
On Fri, 18 Nov 2005 19:33:02 GMT, Colin Day <cday3@sc.rr.com> wrote:
Michael Gray wrote:
On 17 Nov 2005 11:54:34 -0800, "Ritalin-Kid" <Jester_Dee@yahoo.com>
wrote:
I'm having a discussion with this guy who asserts that square-circles
are possible in an elliptic universe.
I can see that from a euclidean perspective we could *perceive* that a
square resembles a circle, but I cannot see where a square would have a
middle point where all points are the same length (circle). So I'm
thinking that it's more like Escher's art/illusions rather than
geometry.
Anyways. Anybody care to explain to me where the guy's right/wrong?
He keeps harping on about triangles having 270 degrees in angles. But I
fail to see *how* any of this would make a square into a circle without
loosing it's erm... square attributes.
(I keep on giving him examples in a "God exists" thread, so I figured
this newsgroup has seen this argument somewhere)
In my professional opinion, he is right.
Imagine a "square" drawn on a sphere.
Expand it until it is congruent with the equator.
It is then both a square and a circle (in strict topological terms,
but perhaps not practical terms.)
But then it's only a one-dimensional figure, as the sides are collinear.
Colin Day aa #1500
Oh no! You're not getting me into this again! ;)
Here's where I do what theists do: pull rank, give an argument from
authority, (me), and close the debate.
It *is*, OK? Just IS!
(Stamps feet)
Why? Because I SAY SO...
(My math degree has got to come handy for something other that
preventing a patch of wallpaper from fading.)
I just invented Argumentum ad Tizzyfitium.
I won, so there!
But what is your highest math degree? Mine is a Ph D (1992, University of
South Carolina, otherwise known as: dammit, why can't we beat Clemson!).
Colin Day aa #1500
Ah, so it's going to be qualification-fencing now? ;)
(Whips out theist lie enhancing spell: waves over conversation...
_.:****:._)
"I hold the chair in advanced impure mathematics at Magdelen College,
Oxford, and have done so for the last 152 years."
And I'm not going to prove it.
You provide absolute proof that I haven't, and I'll dismiss it out of
hand.
And I'll deny that I ever claimed it, anyway.
Here comes the gratuitous insult:
You can't have a PhD in Math, otherwise you wouldn't have spelled
"collinear" incorrrrectly.
I did spell "collinear" correctly, and you spelled "incorrectly"
incorrectly.
Ooh, feel the irony.
I'll see your PhD, and raise you one lousy University Footy team.
(You see, I've learned from the masters: duke, Boatwrong, et al.
Hey, this feels good!
Not having to justify ones-self, that is.)
Colin Day aa #1500
.
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| User: "Michael Gray" |
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| Title: Re: Square-circles possible in an elliptic universe? |
21 Nov 2005 01:42:43 AM |
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On Mon, 21 Nov 2005 00:50:03 GMT, Colin Day <cday3@sc.rr.com> wrote:
Michael Gray wrote:
On Sun, 20 Nov 2005 05:38:08 GMT, Colin Day <cday3@sc.rr.com> wrote:
Michael Gray wrote:
On Fri, 18 Nov 2005 19:33:02 GMT, Colin Day <cday3@sc.rr.com> wrote:
Michael Gray wrote:
On 17 Nov 2005 11:54:34 -0800, "Ritalin-Kid" <Jester_Dee@yahoo.com>
wrote:
I'm having a discussion with this guy who asserts that square-circles
are possible in an elliptic universe.
I can see that from a euclidean perspective we could *perceive* that a
square resembles a circle, but I cannot see where a square would have a
middle point where all points are the same length (circle). So I'm
thinking that it's more like Escher's art/illusions rather than
geometry.
Anyways. Anybody care to explain to me where the guy's right/wrong?
He keeps harping on about triangles having 270 degrees in angles. But I
fail to see *how* any of this would make a square into a circle without
loosing it's erm... square attributes.
(I keep on giving him examples in a "God exists" thread, so I figured
this newsgroup has seen this argument somewhere)
In my professional opinion, he is right.
Imagine a "square" drawn on a sphere.
Expand it until it is congruent with the equator.
It is then both a square and a circle (in strict topological terms,
but perhaps not practical terms.)
But then it's only a one-dimensional figure, as the sides are collinear.
Colin Day aa #1500
Oh no! You're not getting me into this again! ;)
Here's where I do what theists do: pull rank, give an argument from
authority, (me), and close the debate.
It *is*, OK? Just IS!
(Stamps feet)
Why? Because I SAY SO...
(My math degree has got to come handy for something other that
preventing a patch of wallpaper from fading.)
I just invented Argumentum ad Tizzyfitium.
I won, so there!
But what is your highest math degree? Mine is a Ph D (1992, University of
South Carolina, otherwise known as: dammit, why can't we beat Clemson!).
Colin Day aa #1500
Ah, so it's going to be qualification-fencing now? ;)
(Whips out theist lie enhancing spell: waves over conversation...
_.:****:._)
"I hold the chair in advanced impure mathematics at Magdelen College,
Oxford, and have done so for the last 152 years."
And I'm not going to prove it.
You provide absolute proof that I haven't, and I'll dismiss it out of
hand.
And I'll deny that I ever claimed it, anyway.
Here comes the gratuitous insult:
You can't have a PhD in Math, otherwise you wouldn't have spelled
"collinear" incorrrrectly.
I did spell "collinear" correctly, and you spelled "incorrectly"
incorrectly.
Ooh, feel the irony.
That was a deliferate mistale!
Ooh, fell the width.
I'll see your PhD, and raise you one lousy University Footy team.
(You see, I've learned from the masters: duke, Boatwrong, et al.
Hey, this feels good!
Not having to justify ones-self, that is.)
Colin Day aa #1500
.
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| User: "L.Roberts" |
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| Title: Re: Square-circles possible in an elliptic universe? |
20 Nov 2005 05:44:49 AM |
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Michael Gray wrote:
On 17 Nov 2005 11:54:34 -0800, "Ritalin-Kid" <Jester_Dee@yahoo.com>
wrote:
I'm having a discussion with this guy who asserts that square-circles
are possible in an elliptic universe.
I can see that from a euclidean perspective we could *perceive* that a
square resembles a circle, but I cannot see where a square would have a
middle point where all points are the same length (circle). So I'm
thinking that it's more like Escher's art/illusions rather than
geometry.
Anyways. Anybody care to explain to me where the guy's right/wrong?
He keeps harping on about triangles having 270 degrees in angles. But I
fail to see *how* any of this would make a square into a circle without
loosing it's erm... square attributes.
(I keep on giving him examples in a "God exists" thread, so I figured
this newsgroup has seen this argument somewhere)
In my professional opinion, he is right.
Imagine a "square" drawn on a sphere.
Expand it until it is congruent with the equator.
It is then both a square and a circle (in strict topological terms,
but perhaps not practical terms.)
Nice, except you are way off base, the item under discussion is a
square-circle, not a circular square.
.
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| User: "Michael Gray" |
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| Title: Re: Square-circles possible in an elliptic universe? |
20 Nov 2005 10:21:07 AM |
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On 19 Nov 2005 21:44:49 -0800, "L.Roberts" <ozzcat2003@yahoo.com>
wrote:
Michael Gray wrote:
On 17 Nov 2005 11:54:34 -0800, "Ritalin-Kid" <Jester_Dee@yahoo.com>
wrote:
I'm having a discussion with this guy who asserts that square-circles
are possible in an elliptic universe.
I can see that from a euclidean perspective we could *perceive* that a
square resembles a circle, but I cannot see where a square would have a
middle point where all points are the same length (circle). So I'm
thinking that it's more like Escher's art/illusions rather than
geometry.
Anyways. Anybody care to explain to me where the guy's right/wrong?
He keeps harping on about triangles having 270 degrees in angles. But I
fail to see *how* any of this would make a square into a circle without
loosing it's erm... square attributes.
(I keep on giving him examples in a "God exists" thread, so I figured
this newsgroup has seen this argument somewhere)
In my professional opinion, he is right.
Imagine a "square" drawn on a sphere.
Expand it until it is congruent with the equator.
It is then both a square and a circle (in strict topological terms,
but perhaps not practical terms.)
Nice, except you are way off base, the item under discussion is a
square-circle, not a circular square.
I'm looking at the post from Australia.
It looks that way from here.
Everything is upside-down.
.
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| User: "L.Roberts" |
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| Title: Re: Square-circles possible in an elliptic universe? |
20 Nov 2005 03:34:50 PM |
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Michael Gray wrote:
On 19 Nov 2005 21:44:49 -0800, "L.Roberts" <ozzcat2003@yahoo.com>
wrote:
Michael Gray wrote:
On 17 Nov 2005 11:54:34 -0800, "Ritalin-Kid" <Jester_Dee@yahoo.com>
wrote:
I'm having a discussion with this guy who asserts that square-circles
are possible in an elliptic universe.
I can see that from a euclidean perspective we could *perceive* that a
square resembles a circle, but I cannot see where a square would have a
middle point where all points are the same length (circle). So I'm
thinking that it's more like Escher's art/illusions rather than
geometry.
Anyways. Anybody care to explain to me where the guy's right/wrong?
He keeps harping on about triangles having 270 degrees in angles. But I
fail to see *how* any of this would make a square into a circle without
loosing it's erm... square attributes.
(I keep on giving him examples in a "God exists" thread, so I figured
this newsgroup has seen this argument somewhere)
In my professional opinion, he is right.
Imagine a "square" drawn on a sphere.
Expand it until it is congruent with the equator.
It is then both a square and a circle (in strict topological terms,
but perhaps not practical terms.)
Nice, except you are way off base, the item under discussion is a
square-circle, not a circular square.
I'm looking at the post from Australia.
It looks that way from here.
Everything is upside-down.
Ah, then if I may offer a suggestion, try reading your screen reflected
off of a mirror.
I toyed with the concept of a square-circle and conclude that to any
observer, if a circle appeared as a square, said observer would take it
as a square. If, for whatever reason, a circle gets deformed into a
square, well, imo, it is no longer a circle.
.
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| User: "Barry OGrady" |
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| Title: Re: Square-circles possible in an elliptic universe? |
20 Nov 2005 05:27:39 PM |
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On Sun, 20 Nov 2005 20:51:07 +1030, Michael Gray <fleetg@newsguy.spam.com> wrote:
On 19 Nov 2005 21:44:49 -0800, "L.Roberts" <ozzcat2003@yahoo.com>
wrote:
Michael Gray wrote:
On 17 Nov 2005 11:54:34 -0800, "Ritalin-Kid" <Jester_Dee@yahoo.com>
wrote:
I'm having a discussion with this guy who asserts that square-circles
are possible in an elliptic universe.
An elliptic universe is not possible.
Barry
=====
Home page
http://members.iinet.net.au/~barry.og
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| User: "Colin Day" |
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| Title: Re: Square-circles possible in an elliptic universe? |
22 Nov 2005 12:56:41 AM |
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Barry OGrady wrote:
On Sun, 20 Nov 2005 20:51:07 +1030, Michael Gray <fleetg@newsguy.spam.com> wrote:
On 19 Nov 2005 21:44:49 -0800, "L.Roberts" <ozzcat2003@yahoo.com>
wrote:
Michael Gray wrote:
On 17 Nov 2005 11:54:34 -0800, "Ritalin-Kid" <Jester_Dee@yahoo.com>
wrote:
I'm having a discussion with this guy who asserts that square-circles
are possible in an elliptic universe.
An elliptic universe is not possible.
How about an elliptic plane?
Barry
=====
Home page
http://members.iinet.net.au/~barry.og
Colin Day aa #1500
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| User: "Colin Day" |
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| Title: Re: Square-circles possible in an elliptic universe? |
18 Nov 2005 04:46:49 AM |
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Ritalin-Kid wrote:
I'm having a discussion with this guy who asserts that square-circles
are possible in an elliptic universe.
How does one define "square" in elliptic geometry? As a regular
quadrilateral?
I can see that from a euclidean perspective we could *perceive* that a
square resembles a circle, but I cannot see where a square would have a
middle point where all points are the same length (circle). So I'm
thinking that it's more like Escher's art/illusions rather than
geometry.
Depends on how one defines "square" and what metric one uses.
If one defines "square" as a parallelogram having four equal sides
and two equal diagonals and one specifies the distance between
(x1, y1) and (x2, y2) as |x1-x2| + |y1-y2|, then the unit circle is a
square. While this is "Euclidean" in the sense of parallel lines, the
angle stuff gets messed up.
This also works in the case where the distance is max{|x1-x2|, |y1-y2|}.
Anyways. Anybody care to explain to me where the guy's right/wrong?
He keeps harping on about triangles having 270 degrees in angles. But I
fail to see *how* any of this would make a square into a circle without
loosing it's erm... square attributes.
Ask him what he means by "square" in an elliptic space. It has to be
somewhat different from the usual meaning, as a quadrilateral cannot
have four right angles in elliptic space.
(I keep on giving him examples in a "God exists" thread, so I figured
this newsgroup has seen this argument somewhere)
Colin Day aa #1500
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