| Topic: |
Religions > Atheism |
| User: |
"maff" |
| Date: |
01 Dec 2004 03:12:47 AM |
| Object: |
Stem cells |
'I don't know how it works'
http://www.guardian.co.uk/g2/story/0,3604,1363260,00.html
Dr Huang Hongyun cultivates the cells of aborted foetuses and injects
them into the brains and spines of his patients. His method is
controversial, but his results have led hundreds of westerners to his
Beijing surgery. Jonathan Watts was given unprecedented access to the
doctor and his patients
Wednesday December 1, 2004
The Guardian
They come to him in search of miracles. The lame, the sick and the
dying; young and old; Christians from the US, Muslims from the Middle
East, Buddhists from Japan, agnostics from Europe. Some have been in
wheelchairs for years and believe he can help them walk; others are
kept alive by respirators, yet hope he can make them breathe. The
voiceless have heard he can bring them speech. The terminally ill seek
nothing less than more life. In many cases doctors and friends advise
them to stay at home, not to waste their money, and warn them of
potential risks.
Jonathan Watts
http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&selm=18510aff.0401210213.413e6a10%40posting.google.com
Mother looks to Chinese medicine
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/england/cambridgeshire/3705376.stm
A mother of two who has been told she has less than five years to live
is going to China for a controversial experimental operation.
Jean Harrison's motor neurone disease was diagnosed three years ago.
Newsnight
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/programmes/newsnight/default.stm
Huang Hongyun
http://news.google.com/news?q=%20%22Huang%20Hongyun%22&hl=en&lr=&sa=N&tab=gn
http://www.google.com/search?q=%22Huang+Hongyun%22&hl=en&lr=&tab=nw&ie=UTF-8&sa=N
http://www.google.com/search?q=%22Huang+Hongyun%22&num=100&hl=en&lr=&output=search&cat=gwd/Top
http://groups.google.com/groups?as_epq=Huang%20Hongyun&safe=images&as_scoring=d&lr=&num=100&hl=en
stem cells OR cell
http://news.google.com/news?num=100&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&q=stem+cells+OR+cell&sa=N&tab=gn
http://www.google.com/search?num=100&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&q=stem+cells+OR+cell&sa=N&tab=nw
http://www.google.com/search?num=100&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&q=stem+cells+OR+cell&sa=N&tab=wd&cat=gwd%2FTop
http://groups.google.com/groups?as_q=stem%20&as_oq=cells%20cell&safe=images&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&as_scoring=d&lr=&num=100&hl=en
Enemies of Science & Knowledge
http://tinyurl.com/9nb0
and thread
Is the wakening giant a monster?
http://tinyurl.com/iws6
A Blueprint for the Future
http://snipurl.com/a684
.
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| User: "Ian Harvey" |
|
| Title: Re: Stem cells |
03 Dec 2004 04:45:38 AM |
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"maff" <maff91@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:18510aff.0412010127.21315969@posting.google.com...
'I don't know how it works'
http://www.guardian.co.uk/g2/story/0,3604,1363260,00.html
Dr Huang Hongyun cultivates the cells of aborted foetuses and injects
them into the brains and spines of his patients. His method is
controversial, but his results have led hundreds of westerners to his
Beijing surgery. Jonathan Watts was given unprecedented access to the
doctor and his patients
Wednesday December 1, 2004
The Guardian
They come to him in search of miracles. The lame, the sick and the
dying; young and old; Christians from the US, Muslims from the Middle
East, Buddhists from Japan, agnostics from Europe. Some have been in
wheelchairs for years and believe he can help them walk; others are
kept alive by respirators, yet hope he can make them breathe. The
voiceless have heard he can bring them speech. The terminally ill seek
nothing less than more life. In many cases doctors and friends advise
them to stay at home, not to waste their money, and warn them of
potential risks.
There was a piece on this guy a few nights ago on the BBC. He uses
olfactory sheath cells which IIRC are not strictly stem cells and the,
admittedly anecdotal, evidence presented was stunning.
Apart from the Guy recovering from ALS (going from completely immobile and
drooling to standing up and walking about in a couple of days) and the
seeming cures for spinal injuries the two most interesting bits to me were.
1. The interview afterwards with the British specialist in spinal trauma,
when asked "is this guy a quack" he looked straight at camera and said "No,
I don't think he is"
2. The Merkin couple (husband paraplegic from spinal injury) who identified
themselves as Republican, fundamentalist Christian, anti abortionist. Who
when asked how they justified using fetal material argued that they asked
Dog to stop them going if he objected to the treatment, he didn't, so it was
alright. Screaming "hypocritical b'stards" at the TV didn't seem strong
enough. (personally I got the distinct impression that it was a case of
"let's see, it's my back, they're foreign fetuses ..... OK)
Bl**dy fascinating stuff, aparently UCL have a study approved to use adult
OS cells which is going ahead in the next couple of years.
Ian
.
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| User: "Andy Groves" |
|
| Title: Re: Stem cells |
03 Dec 2004 11:32:26 AM |
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"Ian Harvey" <arkle52000@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message news:<coph09$47g$1@ucsnew1.ncl.ac.uk>...
"maff" <maff91@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:18510aff.0412010127.21315969@posting.google.com...
'I don't know how it works'
http://www.guardian.co.uk/g2/story/0,3604,1363260,00.html
Dr Huang Hongyun cultivates the cells of aborted foetuses and injects
them into the brains and spines of his patients. His method is
controversial, but his results have led hundreds of westerners to his
Beijing surgery. Jonathan Watts was given unprecedented access to the
doctor and his patients
Wednesday December 1, 2004
The Guardian
They come to him in search of miracles. The lame, the sick and the
dying; young and old; Christians from the US, Muslims from the Middle
East, Buddhists from Japan, agnostics from Europe. Some have been in
wheelchairs for years and believe he can help them walk; others are
kept alive by respirators, yet hope he can make them breathe. The
voiceless have heard he can bring them speech. The terminally ill seek
nothing less than more life. In many cases doctors and friends advise
them to stay at home, not to waste their money, and warn them of
potential risks.
There was a piece on this guy a few nights ago on the BBC. He uses
olfactory sheath cells which IIRC are not strictly stem cells and the,
admittedly anecdotal, evidence presented was stunning.
Apart from the Guy recovering from ALS (going from completely immobile and
drooling to standing up and walking about in a couple of days) and the
seeming cures for spinal injuries the two most interesting bits to me were.
1. The interview afterwards with the British specialist in spinal trauma,
when asked "is this guy a quack" he looked straight at camera and said "No,
I don't think he is"
2. The Merkin couple (husband paraplegic from spinal injury) who identified
themselves as Republican, fundamentalist Christian, anti abortionist. Who
when asked how they justified using fetal material argued that they asked
Dog to stop them going if he objected to the treatment, he didn't, so it was
alright. Screaming "hypocritical b'stards" at the TV didn't seem strong
enough. (personally I got the distinct impression that it was a case of
"let's see, it's my back, they're foreign fetuses ..... OK)
Bl**dy fascinating stuff, aparently UCL have a study approved to use adult
OS cells which is going ahead in the next couple of years.
Ian
I think a certain amount of scepticism is in order until a proper
clinical trial can be done. The history of Parkinson's transplants is
relevant here - in the mid 1980's a Mexican surgeon by the name of
Madrazo raised hopes with his technique off adrenal autografts, in
which chromaffin cells were removed from the adrenal gland of a
Parkinson's patient and then transplanted into their striatum. The
results were initially very striking - Madrazo showed film clips off
patients who had previously been incapacitated by the disease leaping
up out of chairs and so forth. Over time, however, the results were
far less impressive. What was likely happening was that the chromaffin
cells were dying, and releasing massive amounts of dopamine as they
did so, which brought a transient improvement of symptoms but nothing
permanent. The dopamine overdose idea was also bolstered byt eh fact
that many of the patients initially experienced disorientation and
hallucinations, which exactly what happens when an excess of dopamine
is administered. A number of patients also died after the procedure.
One surgeon who I discussed this work with had a very dim view of the
surgical skills of the surgeon - apaprently one of the dead patients
was discovered on autopsy to have grafted cells in teh left thalamus,
when in fact they were meant to have been transplanted into the right
striatum.
For my own satisfaction, I would like to see the same techniques used
in animal models (with controls), repeated in human surgeries with
some placebo implantations, and a published account of the culture
techniques used to prepare and characterize the ONECs.
Andy
.
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| User: "Ian Harvey" |
|
| Title: Re: Stem cells |
03 Dec 2004 11:52:34 AM |
|
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"Andy Groves" <grovesa@cco.caltech.edu> wrote in message
news:991ea4ae.0412030947.420d89c0@posting.google.com...
I think a certain amount of scepticism is in order until a proper
clinical trial can be done. The history of Parkinson's transplants is
relevant here - in the mid 1980's a Mexican surgeon by the name of
Madrazo raised hopes with his technique off adrenal autografts, in
which chromaffin cells were removed from the adrenal gland of a
Parkinson's patient and then transplanted into their striatum. The
results were initially very striking - Madrazo showed film clips off
patients who had previously been incapacitated by the disease leaping
up out of chairs and so forth. Over time, however, the results were
far less impressive. What was likely happening was that the chromaffin
cells were dying, and releasing massive amounts of dopamine as they
did so, which brought a transient improvement of symptoms but nothing
permanent. The dopamine overdose idea was also bolstered byt eh fact
that many of the patients initially experienced disorientation and
hallucinations, which exactly what happens when an excess of dopamine
is administered. A number of patients also died after the procedure.
One surgeon who I discussed this work with had a very dim view of the
surgical skills of the surgeon - apaprently one of the dead patients
was discovered on autopsy to have grafted cells in teh left thalamus,
when in fact they were meant to have been transplanted into the right
striatum.
For my own satisfaction, I would like to see the same techniques used
in animal models (with controls), repeated in human surgeries with
some placebo implantations, and a published account of the culture
techniques used to prepare and characterize the ONECs.
Andy
No argument whatsoever, scepticism is always good and the Chinese medic said
pretty much the same thing both to the camera and to his patients. He tells
them he doesn't know if it will help, if it does he doesn't know for how
long and frankly they might be dead tomorrow. (1 patient died during
filming of the segment)(the after care isn't exactly up to good private
hospital standards)
On your second point that was also interesting, he says it is illegal in
China for him to use placebo implants because the law has a strict "Do No
Harm" clause and operating without a therapeutic end is defined as harm.
When asked if he would do double blind trials if the law allowed he said no,
because he agrees with the concept. this is either being obstinately
unscientific or being principled enough to ignore a perfectly good excuse I
think we're gonna have to wait for proper trials on autologous donor cells.
From what I could gather there is no culture of the cells, they are
dissected from a fresh fetus, dissociated, probably washed and directly
implanted ( apparently you get 1M cells from one fetus, 500K below a spinal
lesion, 500K above it). Characterisation purely by the "that's the
Olfactory Sheath there" method.
have fun
Ian
.
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| User: "Andy Groves" |
|
| Title: Re: Stem cells |
03 Dec 2004 03:39:15 PM |
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"Ian Harvey" <arkle52000@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message news:<coqa05$f2h$1@ucsnew1.ncl.ac.uk>...
"Andy Groves" <grovesa@cco.caltech.edu> wrote in message
news:991ea4ae.0412030947.420d89c0@posting.google.com...
I think a certain amount of scepticism is in order until a proper
clinical trial can be done. The history of Parkinson's transplants is
relevant here - in the mid 1980's a Mexican surgeon by the name of
Madrazo raised hopes with his technique off adrenal autografts, in
which chromaffin cells were removed from the adrenal gland of a
Parkinson's patient and then transplanted into their striatum. The
results were initially very striking - Madrazo showed film clips off
patients who had previously been incapacitated by the disease leaping
up out of chairs and so forth. Over time, however, the results were
far less impressive. What was likely happening was that the chromaffin
cells were dying, and releasing massive amounts of dopamine as they
did so, which brought a transient improvement of symptoms but nothing
permanent. The dopamine overdose idea was also bolstered byt eh fact
that many of the patients initially experienced disorientation and
hallucinations, which exactly what happens when an excess of dopamine
is administered. A number of patients also died after the procedure.
One surgeon who I discussed this work with had a very dim view of the
surgical skills of the surgeon - apaprently one of the dead patients
was discovered on autopsy to have grafted cells in teh left thalamus,
when in fact they were meant to have been transplanted into the right
striatum.
For my own satisfaction, I would like to see the same techniques used
in animal models (with controls), repeated in human surgeries with
some placebo implantations, and a published account of the culture
techniques used to prepare and characterize the ONECs.
Andy
No argument whatsoever, scepticism is always good and the Chinese medic said
pretty much the same thing both to the camera and to his patients. He tells
them he doesn't know if it will help, if it does he doesn't know for how
long and frankly they might be dead tomorrow. (1 patient died during
filming of the segment)(the after care isn't exactly up to good private
hospital standards)
On your second point that was also interesting, he says it is illegal in
China for him to use placebo implants because the law has a strict "Do No
Harm" clause and operating without a therapeutic end is defined as harm.
When asked if he would do double blind trials if the law allowed he said no,
because he agrees with the concept. this is either being obstinately
unscientific or being principled enough to ignore a perfectly good excuse I
think we're gonna have to wait for proper trials on autologous donor cells.
From what I could gather there is no culture of the cells, they are
dissected from a fresh fetus, dissociated, probably washed and directly
implanted ( apparently you get 1M cells from one fetus, 500K below a spinal
lesion, 500K above it). Characterisation purely by the "that's the
Olfactory Sheath there" method.
The report I read said that he did in fact culture the ONECs to expand
them, but it was in a non-specialist article, so who knows.
I am not convinced by the "do no harm" argument for not doing
controls, for the simple reason that a sham operation (where the
carrier liquid for the cells is injected instead of the carrier +
cells) may be more beneficial that injecting the cells. In fact,
injection of the cells may be positively deleterious! You won't know
the answer until you do the controls. His attitude is neither
principled nor scientific, IMO.
Andy
.
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| User: "Hypatia Kosh" |
|
| Title: Re: Stem cells |
03 Dec 2004 11:37:35 AM |
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"Ian Harvey" <arkle52000@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message news:<coph09$47g$1@ucsnew1.ncl.ac.uk>...
"maff" <maff91@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:18510aff.0412010127.21315969@posting.google.com...
'I don't know how it works'
http://www.guardian.co.uk/g2/story/0,3604,1363260,00.html
Dr Huang Hongyun cultivates the cells of aborted foetuses and injects
them into the brains and spines of his patients. His method is
controversial, but his results have led hundreds of westerners to his
Beijing surgery. Jonathan Watts was given unprecedented access to the
doctor and his patients
Wednesday December 1, 2004
The Guardian
They come to him in search of miracles. The lame, the sick and the
dying; young and old; Christians from the US, Muslims from the Middle
East, Buddhists from Japan, agnostics from Europe. Some have been in
wheelchairs for years and believe he can help them walk; others are
kept alive by respirators, yet hope he can make them breathe. The
voiceless have heard he can bring them speech. The terminally ill seek
nothing less than more life. In many cases doctors and friends advise
them to stay at home, not to waste their money, and warn them of
potential risks.
There was a piece on this guy a few nights ago on the BBC. He uses
olfactory sheath cells which IIRC are not strictly stem cells and the,
admittedly anecdotal, evidence presented was stunning.
Apart from the Guy recovering from ALS (going from completely immobile and
drooling to standing up and walking about in a couple of days) and the
seeming cures for spinal injuries the two most interesting bits to me were.
1. The interview afterwards with the British specialist in spinal trauma,
when asked "is this guy a quack" he looked straight at camera and said "No,
I don't think he is"
2. The Merkin couple (husband paraplegic from spinal injury) who identified
themselves as Republican, fundamentalist Christian, anti abortionist. Who
when asked how they justified using fetal material argued that they asked
Dog to stop them going if he objected to the treatment, he didn't, so it was
alright. Screaming "hypocritical b'stards" at the TV didn't seem strong
enough. (personally I got the distinct impression that it was a case of
"let's see, it's my back, they're foreign fetuses ..... OK)
Exactly. Pat Robertson spoke approving of state-sponsored (and even
forced) abortion in China several years back.
-Hypatia
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